Fried: No unilateral recognition

Slovakia should remember that they do not have veto right and their vote is not necessary to make Kosovo independent. Albanians have waited for independence 3000 and finally they are getting it.

To our dear revisionist friends I will present some quotes taken from the blog of James Lyon, a foreigner who lives and works in Belgrade, Serbia for many years and base the things he says in primary source.

“If you read the Carnegie Commission from 1912 following the first Balkan War you will see that the Serbian forces committed terrible atrocities against the Albanian populations in Kosovo. Between the First and Second World Wars the government of royal Yugoslavia actively discriminated against Albanians and attempted to deport a substantial number of them to Turkey.
Let us discuss mass ethnic cleansing and genocide. In 1998 there were more than 200,000 internally displaced persons in Kosovo, having been driven out of there homes by MUP and VJ personnel. In 1999 800,000 were driven out of the country and many more internally displaced and murdered. Tens of thousands of homes and over a hundred villages were destroyed, and not by NATO bombing, but by Serbian MUP and VJ. In order to cover up the extent of the crime the Serbian state burned bodies in places such as Mackatica and Obilic and transported bodies all the way to Belgrade (Batajnica( and buried them in mass graves on MUP compounds. And then some ended up floating in rivers in refrigerator trucks. So Milosevic turned Serbia into a mini-Auschwitz and you have the nerve to accuse Albanians of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Please show me an Albanian action that comes even close and I will concede your point.
Yes, Kosovo is a genocidal creation, but is was created by Serbian genocide. The Albanians themselves were not angels and did some nasty things. But for shear scale the Serbian state was far, far worse. Please read about the history of the last part of the 20th century. And stop pretending that the Serbs are the greatest victims.”

Who should we trust? Someone who was in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo war and had and still have access to primary source or someone who during the war was in a peaceful place and drunk a lot of tea. I don’t know if you have the ability to imagine how many mothers and sisters you offend on daily basis by denying the terrible crimes committed by Milosevic’s men. You all must be inspired by David Irving.

PEACE

Message is loud and clear, Slovakia fully supports the new Kosova resolution when presented in UNSC.

but at least you had admitted ???? that albanians did commit war crimes as well so please don't try to sugar coat the findings. Does not matter if you did it once or twice it was still committed. Thank you for your honesty sir. ???? you are a person that is reasonable and has demostrated the ability to admit wrong doings unlike others who still post the same stuff about killing 20,000 albanians which has been proven. ???? i wish all albanians thought like you sir if so this status thing would have been settled a long time ago

Message is lound and clear, Kosovo will not become independent as Russia will veto the UN/US proposal.

J.Ham you'r quick to jump and say;"GOOD YOU ADMITTED" , are you ready to admit that serbs comitted atrocities, or is serbia ready to appoligize for their wrongdoings top others.
Getting back to the article, Yes I stand by my first comments and Slovakia no longer sides with serbia on this issue.
I want every pro-serb to read this coments very carefully and tell me what it means, as follows: "As a factual matter, it’s probably the case that independence is coming one way or another, its coming in a way that is supervised, therefore controlled and therefore better off for everyone," Fried said.

I have never said that Albanians did not commit crimes, but their crimes are peanuts compared to the Serb crimes against civilian, innocent Albanians. Every single Serb and Albanian who has blood on their hands should be punished.

Lyon: “Milosevic turned Serbia into a mini-Auschwitz and you have the nerve to accuse Albanians of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Please show me an Albanian action that comes even close and I will concede your point.”

The number of Albanians killed during the Kosovo war is - + 12 000 according to The Lancet and other reliable sources.


Evidence connecting Serbian state directly to war crimes in Kosovo. Two Serbs who committed war crimes, massacres, and ethnic cleansing explain everything.

-----------------------
Milan is a Bosnian Serb who belonged to the militia gang Munja (Lightning).

I was recruited into Munja by a member of the Serbian Radical Party in Belgrade. He
provided us with weapons, ammunition, satellite phones and walkie-talkies. That was the middle of March 1999, ten days before NATO began bombing.

We trained for three days at a camp in Leskovac (Serbia). There were 20 in my unit, and most of the guys came with war experience from Bosnia and other places. Three of them were former members of the Yugoslav state security service in Croatia. Many of them were criminals.

I am a Serbian patriot. I fought for the Serbian cause. And also for the sake of money. Money was the main thing.

We heard that members of the Serbian secret police were transporting Albanian civilians in the trunk of their cars for $2,700. There were some members of my unit who would take the money and just kill the guy. I didn’t do such things. I took them to the border. When the NATO bombing intensified, I started doing the same thing—taking the money and killing them. (. . .)

Our job was to cleanse the village. Some other villagers were hiding in the forest, so we went there to pick them up. There was this village elder, some old Albanian guy, who refused to leave. I mean the guy was just pathetic. We ordered him to go to the border to Albania, but he just refused. So we put a bullet in his forehead. The others were taken to the border while we burned everything in that village. The whole village.
----------------------------------------


Marko was released from a Serbian prison to fight in Kosovo. He went to Pec in a unit of the Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as Arkan.

I have an ugly history with Serbia. It's ugly. I don't like it there. I hate Serbia. I was in prison. I deserved what I was sentenced for. . .I was almost two and a half years in prison. Nobody likes war. But there were 50 of us who were offered to defend the state and in return get our freedom from prison. Well, let me tell you, that for freedom we would do just about anything.

Formally, Arkan didn't come to the prison. It was one of his men. He had a list of prisoners and their dossiers. They had to be the right profile. All he asked was if you were ready to go, to Kosovo. . . this wasn't a judge's, or a prison warden's decision. It was Arkan's. He is the law in Serbia.

We had 35 guys, prisoners, at one of Arkan's camp for seven days. I can't tell you where. At the camp there was psychological training, target practice. A whole test. Those who failed went back to prison, even though they had the right profile. We had instruction in defensive tactics, offensive tactics.

Every squad of 15 had a boss. Each unit had a specific task in Kosovo.

We would receive a list of names. Bring this person in alive or dead. I was assigned to arrest people, and had permission to kill them if necessary. (. . .)

We interacted a lot with certain people at the MUP. There was a kind of crisis council, and some of the information came from there. The lists came from all over, police, city authority, because they had been collecting this kind of information for years. Who were the rich ones, where they lived, who were the important ones, where they lived. (. . .)

--------------


I have a dream that Serbs one day will stop denying the terrible crimes committed against Albanians during the 90s. Remember we are first human beings and then Serbs, Albanians etc..

That david irving did not mention in 99 why people got out of Kosovo (NATO BOMBS) and he really has no business writing this nonsense.

"Message is loud and clear, Slovakia fully supports the new Kosova resolution when presented in UNSC.
(Ahmet Isufi, Thursday, 17 May, 2007, 10:11) "

I think you are jumping the gun Ahmet Isufi. Firstly we do not know what the terms of the proposed resolution would be given that the West is desperate to avoid Russian and Chinese vetoes. Secondly the fact that Slovakia wants the new resolutin to take Serbian interests into consideration means Ahtisaari's proposal will not have Slovak support in its entirety.

To ????

You omitted to mention that Lyon was from the ICG which is avowedly pro-independence since 1999. Therefore he can hardly be considered to be the objective commentator as you claimed him to be.

"The U.S. Assistant Secretary of State says Washington would not make any unilateral move to recognize Kosovo's independence."

This is a complete turnaround from the US threat a while back to unilaterally recognize. I can't remember whether it was Burns or Polt or some other US official who made that threat. But what a climbdown now!

Voila! The US has major egg on their face. This just goes to show all you non-beleivers that the US is no longer a the only super power, economically or militarily. Russia and China don't care much what they think any more. This is a complete turnaround from what the US was saying a few months ago. The Ahtisari plan has failed, independence will never happen.As for what James Lyon thinks, who cares? He works for the ICG, as does Ahtisari, and they have been anti-Serb from the start. I would expect lies and propoganda from people like that, because that is all that they produce.

lowe - I agree. There is an ominous silence today from the US and they have definitely reeled back their rhetoric and approach.
This isn't just about Russia, it's also about creating a sustainable solution to the Kosovo issue.
Whether it becomes independent, partitioned or remains part of Serbia is irrelevant except for the fact that it should be a solution acceptible to both 'sides'.
Serbia is in an immensely better bargaining position with international law on her side, and despite wanting to hand over the reward to the Kosovo Albanians for acting as a land army and for containing violence, it is clear that the US cannot do this.
If they did, the results would have far reaching consequences which would create far bigger problems for them and the EU.
If Kosovo did ever become independent there should be no further talk of 'Albanians' - if people want a new country why would it have ties (eg. flag etc.) to any other nation? That's not independence anyway - it's still related to another state.

«...unlike others who still post the same stuff about killing 20,000 albanians.»

I have never heard this figure before. The usual figure is 12 000 dead. And as ???? so well said, 100s of villages were destroyed and civilians expelled by hundredss of thousands.

These events are enough to authorize the Albanians to live in a free and independant Kosovo.

Indeed, a major turn-around by the Americans. Old-Europe wisdom is starting to prevail. I have a feeling that the walls of propaganda and deceit are starting to crumble, especially in Europe. Clearly, if all former Yugoslav countries gave Serbia the top score in the ESC, then they cannot be that bad?

Not a climbdown iowe but a tradeoff. Read the other article that speaks about toning down the rhetoric betwen the US and Russia. Whats going on here is that the US will tone down its rhetoric on unilateral recodnition in exhange for Russian support in the UNSC.

Oh and one more thing, dont ever forget who won the cold war and who fed the russians for a decade before putin came to power. Just because Russia recently made some money of selling energy does not mean they can automaticly meddle in European affairs.

The US invested billions in the Kosovo war and reconstruction, the EU invested billions in Kosovo's reconstruction and they have a whole lot to lose, while Russia invested nothing and the current meddling in Kosovo is nothing more that pure destructive behaviour by a country trying to get some self steem.

Russia is beeing destructive left and right they are playing with fire in Iran, N Korea, Kosovo and sooner or later they are going to get burned.

Kate,

Do you realise that the whole Russian economy currently revolves around a few magnates? Take those people out of the game and your precious Russia will come down like a pile of bricks.

guys it is this simple so dont make it complicated. US-EU drafted a resolution based on atisari proposal with provision of independence. russia rejected it straight in the face. rice and other officials are kissing the ass of russia now only to get its yes. dont you people realize the reality? come on!!! the MAYDAY schedule will be gone soon so they are thinking of June 10. then maybe July who knows when.

so i guess there will be on unilaterail declaration of independence. Back to the drawing board. Let the past stay in the past for those who like to continue bringing up massacre, foreced explusion on both sides will never heal the wounds. we who frequently post really don't know what really happen and only repeat what we have heard. Alben, ???? and other folks who live outside kosovo can only repeat what they heard. So i won't make anymore judgement calls because i was not there during the 90's but i was there from Jan 99 forward i saw what went on and i saw what happen after the bombing. We never lost power during the air war and since the serbs were forced to leave there has been nothing but major power outages. So i will leave it at that. So ???? and Mr isufi can comment on that i am sure they will have a spin since there is no other way to spin it.

"Do you realise that the whole Russian economy currently revolves around a few magnates? Take those people out of the game and your precious Russia will come down like a pile of bricks."

Do you realise prior to the US becoming an industrial force from late 19 century to the mid-20th century that it too was built on a few giants, i.e., Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford and Morgan?

Russia is in great position to return to the world's forefront.

http://www.serbia-info.com/news/kosovo/terrorism/since1990.html

This is whom you want to have independence???

The moral of this story is that Russia/Serbia have international law on their side. Do you think that the EU will let the US meddle with Serbia again? After Iraq, I don't think so. I think that finally, US foreign policy has become a joke and that the whole world is beginning to realize what kind of opportunitsts the States really are, mainly due to the Bush administration. Dream on K-Albanians, Kosovo is and was a part of Serbia and it's going to take a lot of work to take it away. Sorry to crush anyones dreams of a drug/tobacco/people smuggling state. Serbia has proven that it is diplomatic and will not yeild to outrageous Western demands..

Slovakia should remember that they do not have veto right and their vote is not necessary to make Kosovo independent. Albanians have waited for independence 3000 and finally they are getting it.

To our dear revisionist friends I will present some quotes taken from the blog of James Lyon, a foreigner who lives and works in Belgrade, Serbia for many years and base the things he says in primary source.

“If you read the Carnegie Commission from 1912 following the first Balkan War you will see that the Serbian forces committed terrible atrocities against the Albanian populations in Kosovo. Between the First and Second World Wars the government of royal Yugoslavia actively discriminated against Albanians and attempted to deport a substantial number of them to Turkey.
Let us discuss mass ethnic cleansing and genocide. In 1998 there were more than 200,000 internally displaced persons in Kosovo, having been driven out of there homes by MUP and VJ personnel. In 1999 800,000 were driven out of the country and many more internally displaced and murdered. Tens of thousands of homes and over a hundred villages were destroyed, and not by NATO bombing, but by Serbian MUP and VJ. In order to cover up the extent of the crime the Serbian state burned bodies in places such as Mackatica and Obilic and transported bodies all the way to Belgrade (Batajnica( and buried them in mass graves on MUP compounds. And then some ended up floating in rivers in refrigerator trucks. So Milosevic turned Serbia into a mini-Auschwitz and you have the nerve to accuse Albanians of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Please show me an Albanian action that comes even close and I will concede your point.
Yes, Kosovo is a genocidal creation, but is was created by Serbian genocide. The Albanians themselves were not angels and did some nasty things. But for shear scale the Serbian state was far, far worse. Please read about the history of the last part of the 20th century. And stop pretending that the Serbs are the greatest victims.”

Who should we trust? Someone who was in Yugoslavia during the Kosovo war and had and still have access to primary source or someone who during the war was in a peaceful place and drunk a lot of tea. I don’t know if you have the ability to imagine how many mothers and sisters you offend on daily basis by denying the terrible crimes committed by Milosevic’s men. You all must be inspired by David Irving.

PEACE

Message is loud and clear, Slovakia fully supports the new Kosova resolution when presented in UNSC.

but at least you had admitted ???? that albanians did commit war crimes as well so please don't try to sugar coat the findings. Does not matter if you did it once or twice it was still committed. Thank you for your honesty sir. ???? you are a person that is reasonable and has demostrated the ability to admit wrong doings unlike others who still post the same stuff about killing 20,000 albanians which has been proven. ???? i wish all albanians thought like you sir if so this status thing would have been settled a long time ago

Message is lound and clear, Kosovo will not become independent as Russia will veto the UN/US proposal.

J.Ham you'r quick to jump and say;"GOOD YOU ADMITTED" , are you ready to admit that serbs comitted atrocities, or is serbia ready to appoligize for their wrongdoings top others.
Getting back to the article, Yes I stand by my first comments and Slovakia no longer sides with serbia on this issue.
I want every pro-serb to read this coments very carefully and tell me what it means, as follows: "As a factual matter, it’s probably the case that independence is coming one way or another, its coming in a way that is supervised, therefore controlled and therefore better off for everyone," Fried said.

I have never said that Albanians did not commit crimes, but their crimes are peanuts compared to the Serb crimes against civilian, innocent Albanians. Every single Serb and Albanian who has blood on their hands should be punished.

Lyon: “Milosevic turned Serbia into a mini-Auschwitz and you have the nerve to accuse Albanians of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Please show me an Albanian action that comes even close and I will concede your point.”

The number of Albanians killed during the Kosovo war is - + 12 000 according to The Lancet and other reliable sources.


Evidence connecting Serbian state directly to war crimes in Kosovo. Two Serbs who committed war crimes, massacres, and ethnic cleansing explain everything.

-----------------------
Milan is a Bosnian Serb who belonged to the militia gang Munja (Lightning).

I was recruited into Munja by a member of the Serbian Radical Party in Belgrade. He
provided us with weapons, ammunition, satellite phones and walkie-talkies. That was the middle of March 1999, ten days before NATO began bombing.

We trained for three days at a camp in Leskovac (Serbia). There were 20 in my unit, and most of the guys came with war experience from Bosnia and other places. Three of them were former members of the Yugoslav state security service in Croatia. Many of them were criminals.

I am a Serbian patriot. I fought for the Serbian cause. And also for the sake of money. Money was the main thing.

We heard that members of the Serbian secret police were transporting Albanian civilians in the trunk of their cars for $2,700. There were some members of my unit who would take the money and just kill the guy. I didn’t do such things. I took them to the border. When the NATO bombing intensified, I started doing the same thing—taking the money and killing them. (. . .)

Our job was to cleanse the village. Some other villagers were hiding in the forest, so we went there to pick them up. There was this village elder, some old Albanian guy, who refused to leave. I mean the guy was just pathetic. We ordered him to go to the border to Albania, but he just refused. So we put a bullet in his forehead. The others were taken to the border while we burned everything in that village. The whole village.
----------------------------------------


Marko was released from a Serbian prison to fight in Kosovo. He went to Pec in a unit of the Serbian warlord Zeljko Raznatovic, better known as Arkan.

I have an ugly history with Serbia. It's ugly. I don't like it there. I hate Serbia. I was in prison. I deserved what I was sentenced for. . .I was almost two and a half years in prison. Nobody likes war. But there were 50 of us who were offered to defend the state and in return get our freedom from prison. Well, let me tell you, that for freedom we would do just about anything.

Formally, Arkan didn't come to the prison. It was one of his men. He had a list of prisoners and their dossiers. They had to be the right profile. All he asked was if you were ready to go, to Kosovo. . . this wasn't a judge's, or a prison warden's decision. It was Arkan's. He is the law in Serbia.

We had 35 guys, prisoners, at one of Arkan's camp for seven days. I can't tell you where. At the camp there was psychological training, target practice. A whole test. Those who failed went back to prison, even though they had the right profile. We had instruction in defensive tactics, offensive tactics.

Every squad of 15 had a boss. Each unit had a specific task in Kosovo.

We would receive a list of names. Bring this person in alive or dead. I was assigned to arrest people, and had permission to kill them if necessary. (. . .)

We interacted a lot with certain people at the MUP. There was a kind of crisis council, and some of the information came from there. The lists came from all over, police, city authority, because they had been collecting this kind of information for years. Who were the rich ones, where they lived, who were the important ones, where they lived. (. . .)

--------------


I have a dream that Serbs one day will stop denying the terrible crimes committed against Albanians during the 90s. Remember we are first human beings and then Serbs, Albanians etc..

That david irving did not mention in 99 why people got out of Kosovo (NATO BOMBS) and he really has no business writing this nonsense.

"Message is loud and clear, Slovakia fully supports the new Kosova resolution when presented in UNSC.
(Ahmet Isufi, Thursday, 17 May, 2007, 10:11) "

I think you are jumping the gun Ahmet Isufi. Firstly we do not know what the terms of the proposed resolution would be given that the West is desperate to avoid Russian and Chinese vetoes. Secondly the fact that Slovakia wants the new resolutin to take Serbian interests into consideration means Ahtisaari's proposal will not have Slovak support in its entirety.

To ????

You omitted to mention that Lyon was from the ICG which is avowedly pro-independence since 1999. Therefore he can hardly be considered to be the objective commentator as you claimed him to be.

"The U.S. Assistant Secretary of State says Washington would not make any unilateral move to recognize Kosovo's independence."

This is a complete turnaround from the US threat a while back to unilaterally recognize. I can't remember whether it was Burns or Polt or some other US official who made that threat. But what a climbdown now!

Voila! The US has major egg on their face. This just goes to show all you non-beleivers that the US is no longer a the only super power, economically or militarily. Russia and China don't care much what they think any more. This is a complete turnaround from what the US was saying a few months ago. The Ahtisari plan has failed, independence will never happen.As for what James Lyon thinks, who cares? He works for the ICG, as does Ahtisari, and they have been anti-Serb from the start. I would expect lies and propoganda from people like that, because that is all that they produce.

lowe - I agree. There is an ominous silence today from the US and they have definitely reeled back their rhetoric and approach.
This isn't just about Russia, it's also about creating a sustainable solution to the Kosovo issue.
Whether it becomes independent, partitioned or remains part of Serbia is irrelevant except for the fact that it should be a solution acceptible to both 'sides'.
Serbia is in an immensely better bargaining position with international law on her side, and despite wanting to hand over the reward to the Kosovo Albanians for acting as a land army and for containing violence, it is clear that the US cannot do this.
If they did, the results would have far reaching consequences which would create far bigger problems for them and the EU.
If Kosovo did ever become independent there should be no further talk of 'Albanians' - if people want a new country why would it have ties (eg. flag etc.) to any other nation? That's not independence anyway - it's still related to another state.

«...unlike others who still post the same stuff about killing 20,000 albanians.»

I have never heard this figure before. The usual figure is 12 000 dead. And as ???? so well said, 100s of villages were destroyed and civilians expelled by hundredss of thousands.

These events are enough to authorize the Albanians to live in a free and independant Kosovo.

Indeed, a major turn-around by the Americans. Old-Europe wisdom is starting to prevail. I have a feeling that the walls of propaganda and deceit are starting to crumble, especially in Europe. Clearly, if all former Yugoslav countries gave Serbia the top score in the ESC, then they cannot be that bad?

Not a climbdown iowe but a tradeoff. Read the other article that speaks about toning down the rhetoric betwen the US and Russia. Whats going on here is that the US will tone down its rhetoric on unilateral recodnition in exhange for Russian support in the UNSC.

Oh and one more thing, dont ever forget who won the cold war and who fed the russians for a decade before putin came to power. Just because Russia recently made some money of selling energy does not mean they can automaticly meddle in European affairs.

The US invested billions in the Kosovo war and reconstruction, the EU invested billions in Kosovo's reconstruction and they have a whole lot to lose, while Russia invested nothing and the current meddling in Kosovo is nothing more that pure destructive behaviour by a country trying to get some self steem.

Russia is beeing destructive left and right they are playing with fire in Iran, N Korea, Kosovo and sooner or later they are going to get burned.

Kate,

Do you realise that the whole Russian economy currently revolves around a few magnates? Take those people out of the game and your precious Russia will come down like a pile of bricks.

guys it is this simple so dont make it complicated. US-EU drafted a resolution based on atisari proposal with provision of independence. russia rejected it straight in the face. rice and other officials are kissing the ass of russia now only to get its yes. dont you people realize the reality? come on!!! the MAYDAY schedule will be gone soon so they are thinking of June 10. then maybe July who knows when.

so i guess there will be on unilaterail declaration of independence. Back to the drawing board. Let the past stay in the past for those who like to continue bringing up massacre, foreced explusion on both sides will never heal the wounds. we who frequently post really don't know what really happen and only repeat what we have heard. Alben, ???? and other folks who live outside kosovo can only repeat what they heard. So i won't make anymore judgement calls because i was not there during the 90's but i was there from Jan 99 forward i saw what went on and i saw what happen after the bombing. We never lost power during the air war and since the serbs were forced to leave there has been nothing but major power outages. So i will leave it at that. So ???? and Mr isufi can comment on that i am sure they will have a spin since there is no other way to spin it.

"Do you realise that the whole Russian economy currently revolves around a few magnates? Take those people out of the game and your precious Russia will come down like a pile of bricks."

Do you realise prior to the US becoming an industrial force from late 19 century to the mid-20th century that it too was built on a few giants, i.e., Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford and Morgan?

Russia is in great position to return to the world's forefront.

http://www.serbia-info.com/news/kosovo/terrorism/since1990.html

This is whom you want to have independence???

The moral of this story is that Russia/Serbia have international law on their side. Do you think that the EU will let the US meddle with Serbia again? After Iraq, I don't think so. I think that finally, US foreign policy has become a joke and that the whole world is beginning to realize what kind of opportunitsts the States really are, mainly due to the Bush administration. Dream on K-Albanians, Kosovo is and was a part of Serbia and it's going to take a lot of work to take it away. Sorry to crush anyones dreams of a drug/tobacco/people smuggling state. Serbia has proven that it is diplomatic and will not yeild to outrageous Western demands..