Defense contests Srebrenica figures

I do not understand the fuss over such a small difference in the figures already established. Thousands of innocents boys and men were slaugthered in July 1995 for nothing, only because the Serbs thought they could have been implied in killing of Serbs around Srebrenica, and I see no compassion for the innocent victims.

Does a couple hundred more or less of the 8000 figure make a difference?

Victor actually it does matter. If you have taken the time to read up on the ICJ judgement and ICTY facts and figures you would have realisesd the whole basis of the term " Srebrenica Genocide" relates to events immediatly after 11th July 1995 and not before. If you had not noticed commander Vidoje Blagojevic had his appeal upheld reducing his time locked up to to 15 years. Blagojevic was found guilty of war crimes and complicity in genocide in 2005. The appeals court cleared him of complicity in the genocide at Srebrenica on the grounds that he had no knowledge of that 1995 massacre and only provided logistical support.

Genocide is a wide concept but it is also specicfic in legal terms and should not be used liberally so as to diminish it's validity. To do so one could suggest that any war crime prepetrated is Genocide when it is patently not! I mean if that were the case then what is currently going on in Iraq would be questionable in such terms. I don't see Bush, Blair et al ever being put on trial for war crimes but they sure as hell have been responsible for creating the environment for the deaths of many more then have died in the Bosnian civil war and for that matter throughout all of Yugoslavia!!! You could say the same what does it matter that 200,000 or 650,000 have died since the Iraq invasion but in fact it does matter that the actual truth told!

For FYI Victor just so that you are best informed on the real events that occured in the Bosnian CIVIL war
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:iJO0X8wpacMJ:www.rferl.org/newsline/4-see.asp+norway+arrest+croat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=uk

"...WHILE NORWAY ARRESTS BOSNIAN WAR CRIMES SUSPECT...
Norwegian police have arrested a Bosnian Muslim suspected of committing war crimes during the 1992-95 conflict, international and regional media reported on May 8 and 9. Officials refused to name him, or to provide details of the arrest. However, they said he will be charged with illegal detention, aggravated assault, and rape committed at a prison camp for ethnic Serbs. He was reportedly serving with an ethnic-Croatian paramilitary unit at the time of the alleged crimes, which took place between May and September 1992. Subsequently, in 1993, he took his family to Norway, where he gained citizenship in 2001. He faces 21 years in jail if found guilty in what a Norwegian prosecutor, Jan Eirik Thomassen, told dpa is probably "the first war crimes case in Norway" involving a Norwegian national since trials held in the aftermath of World War II. Norwegian authorities have said they estimated that some 50 alleged war criminals from the Balkans might be living in the country, dpa reported. AG"

- just in case you did not get it the first time Bosnian MUSLIM arrested for running a WAR CAMP run by CROATS detaining and KILLING SERBS!!!

I condemn ALL atrocities commited by all sides and 1 war crime be that torture, rape or death is completly evil and needs to be accounted for and each of those responsible should face justice for each act - that is why it is important that the real facts and exact truth is known by all and accepted by all.

Innocent? That's debateable as they were not tried by a jury/judge. They were listed as soldiers though:

http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani123.html
"Numbers Do Not Make Genocide", 23 December 2005, Sarajevo.

Emir Suljagic: "But what about the thousands who were listed as soldiers, but were in fact civilians? In the case of Srebrenica, for example, thousands were listed as soldiers, since that was the only way for their families to survive, given that the state did not have the means to look after civilians. How are these dead classified?"

Tokaca: "It is not part of my task to separate them out. If the state reports them as soldiers, then we classify them as military casualties"

Even with this most sympathetic view which basically argues that this is not 'fair', if they are officially listed as soldiers, then they are soldiers (not to mention approx. 1/3 were armed and video tape footage of some of them emerging in Tuzla shows them armed). That is extremely clear in international law and there's no two ways about it, even though the media preferes to call them 'men and boys' and uses other such circumelocutions to avoid the word 'soldiers'.

http://www.ex-yupress.com/ is a really great resource.

I should also add that the NIOD report (http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/) also states that there were a number of instances of the soldiers firing upon each other in the confusion of numerous ambushes... which is not a war crime, nor is attacking soldiers who have not surrendered, unless General Barry McCaffrey of the infamous Bazra Road Turkey Shoot in 1991 (as exposed by Seymour Hersh in "The New Yorker" is a special case...

It's worth reading both.

The number of Moslems killed in and around Srebrenica after the mysterious retreat of the Moslem garrison is not particularly relevant.

The Bosnian Serbs claim about 2000 Moslem dead killed in battle with the encircling Serbian forces, which lost about 600 men. The Moslems and their American friend have variously claimed between 11,000 – 7,000 Moslem deaths.

The real issue is how these Moslems were killed.

As many as 20,000 heavily armed Moslem men broke through Serbian lines around Srebrenica and were heading for Tuzla. For the encircling Serbian forces it was not clear if this massive military column was retreating to Tuzla or attacking the nearby Serbian town of Bratunac.

Serbian forces naturally opened fire on this massive Moslem army. Many Moslem soldiers were killed. These dead Moslems were definitely not "massacred." They were armed to the teeth and killed in battle.

All the Moslems who surrendered to General Mladic in Srebrenica (including many men) were sent to Sarajevo and Tuzla under Red Cross supervision. These were not massacred.

I dare say that in the heat of battle some Serbian soldiers shot captured Moslem soldiers, but it is impossible that 7,000 Moslems were killed in this way.

There is the strange case of the 10th Sabotage Unit of the Bosnian Serbian Army. This unit was staffed exclusively by Moslems, Croats and Slovenes all of whom had previously served in the French Foreign Legion. One member of this suspicious Unit, Dražen Erdemović, a Croat, admitted to massacring up to 1200 Srebrenica Moslems at the Pilica farm near Zvornik. There is some evidence that something nasty happened at the Pilica farm. But even if Erdemovic is telling the truth, who’s orders was he following?

If the world wants to know what happened in Srebrenica, then it should study the activities of the 10th Sabotage Unit of the Bosnia Serb Army. A Unit that had no Serbs as members and which took its orders from the French military and not General Mladic.

I do not understand the fuss over such a small difference in the figures already established. Thousands of innocents boys and men were slaugthered in July 1995 for nothing, only because the Serbs thought they could have been implied in killing of Serbs around Srebrenica, and I see no compassion for the innocent victims.

Does a couple hundred more or less of the 8000 figure make a difference?

Victor actually it does matter. If you have taken the time to read up on the ICJ judgement and ICTY facts and figures you would have realisesd the whole basis of the term " Srebrenica Genocide" relates to events immediatly after 11th July 1995 and not before. If you had not noticed commander Vidoje Blagojevic had his appeal upheld reducing his time locked up to to 15 years. Blagojevic was found guilty of war crimes and complicity in genocide in 2005. The appeals court cleared him of complicity in the genocide at Srebrenica on the grounds that he had no knowledge of that 1995 massacre and only provided logistical support.

Genocide is a wide concept but it is also specicfic in legal terms and should not be used liberally so as to diminish it's validity. To do so one could suggest that any war crime prepetrated is Genocide when it is patently not! I mean if that were the case then what is currently going on in Iraq would be questionable in such terms. I don't see Bush, Blair et al ever being put on trial for war crimes but they sure as hell have been responsible for creating the environment for the deaths of many more then have died in the Bosnian civil war and for that matter throughout all of Yugoslavia!!! You could say the same what does it matter that 200,000 or 650,000 have died since the Iraq invasion but in fact it does matter that the actual truth told!

For FYI Victor just so that you are best informed on the real events that occured in the Bosnian CIVIL war
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:iJO0X8wpacMJ:www.rferl.org/newsline/4-see.asp+norway+arrest+croat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=uk

"...WHILE NORWAY ARRESTS BOSNIAN WAR CRIMES SUSPECT...
Norwegian police have arrested a Bosnian Muslim suspected of committing war crimes during the 1992-95 conflict, international and regional media reported on May 8 and 9. Officials refused to name him, or to provide details of the arrest. However, they said he will be charged with illegal detention, aggravated assault, and rape committed at a prison camp for ethnic Serbs. He was reportedly serving with an ethnic-Croatian paramilitary unit at the time of the alleged crimes, which took place between May and September 1992. Subsequently, in 1993, he took his family to Norway, where he gained citizenship in 2001. He faces 21 years in jail if found guilty in what a Norwegian prosecutor, Jan Eirik Thomassen, told dpa is probably "the first war crimes case in Norway" involving a Norwegian national since trials held in the aftermath of World War II. Norwegian authorities have said they estimated that some 50 alleged war criminals from the Balkans might be living in the country, dpa reported. AG"

- just in case you did not get it the first time Bosnian MUSLIM arrested for running a WAR CAMP run by CROATS detaining and KILLING SERBS!!!

I condemn ALL atrocities commited by all sides and 1 war crime be that torture, rape or death is completly evil and needs to be accounted for and each of those responsible should face justice for each act - that is why it is important that the real facts and exact truth is known by all and accepted by all.

Innocent? That's debateable as they were not tried by a jury/judge. They were listed as soldiers though:

http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani123.html
"Numbers Do Not Make Genocide", 23 December 2005, Sarajevo.

Emir Suljagic: "But what about the thousands who were listed as soldiers, but were in fact civilians? In the case of Srebrenica, for example, thousands were listed as soldiers, since that was the only way for their families to survive, given that the state did not have the means to look after civilians. How are these dead classified?"

Tokaca: "It is not part of my task to separate them out. If the state reports them as soldiers, then we classify them as military casualties"

Even with this most sympathetic view which basically argues that this is not 'fair', if they are officially listed as soldiers, then they are soldiers (not to mention approx. 1/3 were armed and video tape footage of some of them emerging in Tuzla shows them armed). That is extremely clear in international law and there's no two ways about it, even though the media preferes to call them 'men and boys' and uses other such circumelocutions to avoid the word 'soldiers'.

http://www.ex-yupress.com/ is a really great resource.

I should also add that the NIOD report (http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/) also states that there were a number of instances of the soldiers firing upon each other in the confusion of numerous ambushes... which is not a war crime, nor is attacking soldiers who have not surrendered, unless General Barry McCaffrey of the infamous Bazra Road Turkey Shoot in 1991 (as exposed by Seymour Hersh in "The New Yorker" is a special case...

It's worth reading both.

The number of Moslems killed in and around Srebrenica after the mysterious retreat of the Moslem garrison is not particularly relevant.

The Bosnian Serbs claim about 2000 Moslem dead killed in battle with the encircling Serbian forces, which lost about 600 men. The Moslems and their American friend have variously claimed between 11,000 – 7,000 Moslem deaths.

The real issue is how these Moslems were killed.

As many as 20,000 heavily armed Moslem men broke through Serbian lines around Srebrenica and were heading for Tuzla. For the encircling Serbian forces it was not clear if this massive military column was retreating to Tuzla or attacking the nearby Serbian town of Bratunac.

Serbian forces naturally opened fire on this massive Moslem army. Many Moslem soldiers were killed. These dead Moslems were definitely not "massacred." They were armed to the teeth and killed in battle.

All the Moslems who surrendered to General Mladic in Srebrenica (including many men) were sent to Sarajevo and Tuzla under Red Cross supervision. These were not massacred.

I dare say that in the heat of battle some Serbian soldiers shot captured Moslem soldiers, but it is impossible that 7,000 Moslems were killed in this way.

There is the strange case of the 10th Sabotage Unit of the Bosnian Serbian Army. This unit was staffed exclusively by Moslems, Croats and Slovenes all of whom had previously served in the French Foreign Legion. One member of this suspicious Unit, Dražen Erdemović, a Croat, admitted to massacring up to 1200 Srebrenica Moslems at the Pilica farm near Zvornik. There is some evidence that something nasty happened at the Pilica farm. But even if Erdemovic is telling the truth, who’s orders was he following?

If the world wants to know what happened in Srebrenica, then it should study the activities of the 10th Sabotage Unit of the Bosnia Serb Army. A Unit that had no Serbs as members and which took its orders from the French military and not General Mladic.