Yes, it is correct statement that "there could be some adjustments" to the Ahtisaari's plan - adjustments that could lead to a bona-fide compromise, making a broad-based autonomy for Kosovo.
so if kosovo remains in serbia,how do you see the future of serbia ,with about half of its citizens clearly opposed to the central gouvernement?(because presheva,sandjak and voivodoina will very often join kosovo in opposition to serbs)
in serbia,we will be the one to decide of who will be your president or your prime,funny no?
and believe me that we will know how to vote so that you have the maximum mess!
so better stop all your false revendication and let kosovo go!
"Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
[link]
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
(Afrim Hoxha, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 16:45)"
Of course Russia must take care of her own interests first. That is the basic obligation of any government, including the US. I believe they are in Kosovo primarily because of Bondsteel.
This Tadic interview was in early April, just BEFORE the Russians started to make their veto threat explicit. And what happened once the Russians openly stated in MID-April that Ahtissari's plan will not pass the UN? The West agreed to a UN mission to Kosovo. Then the US announced (via conveniently anonymous diplomats) that they are now willing to make amendments to the Ahtissaari proposal. Seems more to me that it is the West that is retreating.
To Laki of NY, the math is very clear, but your obvious romanticism to the Albanian talking points may make it unclear to you and others. First, it is clear that Russia will veto any imposed solution in the UN. Second, NATO has warned the Albanians against any unilateral declarations because it is agreed by all that the only legitimacy for independence comes through the UN. Third, Rehn has stated that the UN Security Council is the only legitimate process for achieving independence. Given the foregoing, there is no way under international law, the UN Charter or Resolution 1244 that Kosovo can be amputated from Serbia. Yours and similar rhetoric is like leaves in the wind, they just blow around without any substance to them. The world is taking note of the respective arguments and realizing the precedent that amputating Serbia would cause. The Albanians only offer threats of instability, and the world will not accept your blackmail. Checkmate!
Well i am sorry Genc i mis read your statement and actually the last one was ok until you started mentioning Bosnia, we are speaking of Kosovo. Repayment will not bring back the dead, or rebuild the lost memories. I would hope everyone would come to a workable agreement. NATO has advise the Kosovo Goverment not to go off on its own and declare independence. I believe for those who want to do this should listen.
"Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one"
Genc,
I wouldn't say that was entirely true. I think Stalin was the exception, he truly was a villain of epic proportions and a very nasty fellow (His victims count in the tens of millions, makes Milosevic look like a nice guy, lol), but he just grabbed what he could of the Nazi Empire, I don't think he would have done that if they weren't there just for the taking. Discounting that era, Russia really was about the same as any other European Power, if anything much less imperialistic. However, I can see why many European countries wouldn't like Russia, its obvious.
I am not a supporter of autonomy, I support the right for Kosovar Albanians to either have their own state, or join with Albania. I also support the same solution for Presevo. Many Serbs do not like me for those reasons, but I came to that conclusion because it seems to make the most sense to me and I believe in it.
However, I support partition. Serbs must have something to which we can refer to as Kosovo, or its only a temporary solution to a complex problem that has troubled the Serbian heart for many centuries. It is my firm belief that with the inclusion of Presevo that most Albanians would be willing to live with such a situation, even if they do not embrace it. If we need to wait for Ahtisaari's proposal to fail to have this discussion, then so be it.
I do understand your concerns that delay is hurting economic development, but in reality, Kosovo (and Albania) have never had much of an economy and I don't see it developing rapidly. I fully understand how things work in the Balkans, service is terrible and everything is done on the "down low". The funny thing to me is, after spending 6 months living in Belgrade, when I went to Bosnia it felt like the West it was so much more developed because of the Western occupation. The West stealing the Trepca mines should concern you far more then any delay of a resolution of status. Maybe if the Albanian people there were more vocal in condemning the possible use of violence to solve the issue, or didn't engage in the 2004 riots, the West would be more interested in investing there. Personally, I think you will find Western investment a mixed blessing if how they handled the Trepca mines is any indication of what they have in store for your people.
The fact is in those countries where Serbians were traditionally abused as a minority are those countries in which we had violent conflict. No significant sustained violence broke out in Slovenia, Montenegro or Macedonia. We were cleansed from Croatia nearly completely, and to be honest, after what happened in 2004 in Kosovo, I fear the same for our people and our deep history there. Its not about wanting to live in one country, its about being free from repression. Think how you feel about Belgrade rule, now consider that the Serbs suffered at least as much (if not more) as you under the Ustashe. Can you really blame us for not wanting to live under the Croatians? We all knew they would ethnically cleanse us of Croatia and finally achieve the Ustashe dream. We must accept the fact that none of us in the Balkans really truly has a good history of protecting the rights of the others.
"Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems."
Yeah, already we have issues there. Many Albanians are not happy with the rights given to the Serbs, and the natural desire will be to change those, and lucky for you Ahtisaari made it easy. Read Paragraph 3.7 from Ahtisaari's proposal. Then think how much pressure that may put on the other minorities in Kosovo, particularly the Roma, if Albanians decide to attempt to change these rights.
"3.7 The following laws shall require for their adoption, amendment or repeal both the majority of the Assembly members present and voting and the majority of the Assembly members holding seats reserved or guaranteed for representatives of Communities that are not in the majority in Kosovo:
a. Laws changing municipal boundaries, establishing or abolishing municipalities, defining the scope of powers of municipalities and their participation in inter- municipal and cross-border relations;
b. Laws implementing the rights of Communities and their members, other than those set forth in the Constitution;
c. Laws on the use of language;
d. Laws on local elections;
e. Laws on the protection of cultural heritage;
f. Laws on religious freedom or on agreements with religious communities;
g. Laws on education;
h. Laws on the use of symbols (including Community symbols) and on public holidays."
Trust me Genc that I want peace and prosperity in the Balkans as much as you do. I feel badly about the way you guys were treated under Milosevic. I'm educated enough to know that the current and past situations were unworkable. However, I can also see that Ahtisaari's plan as it stands now is a disaster waiting to happen and simply doesn't address the root causes of the problems in the Balkans. We need a regional solution based on what will work, not on who did what to whom. We all have an extremely bad record of human rights abuses.
The simple fact of the matter is if the Albanian population had not engaged in retaliatory attacks and the 2004 riots we would not be having this conversation and you would already have independence.
I haven't contributed to B92 for a month or two as it appeared that the site wasn't about intelligent discusion but more about spoilt children peddling half truths, conspiracy theories.
I usually search out Mike's comments as he's clearly a chap who can argue with sense, intelligence and without nasty blinkered nationalism.
I'm very much in the Serbian camp due to my Anglo/Serb heritage (think thats the signal for the shouts of 'if you love Serbia why dont you live/move there!) however, i dont dismiss Albanian comments and views with blind arrogance.
Arguements about which country is 'tougher' vis-a-vis Russia or US, are stupid, purile and serve no purpose. Lets raise the bar chaps. Its emotive and it means much to all people in the Region. Serbs, Albanians, Roma amongst others all have a special place for Kosovo and Metohija. Let us debate like adults.
Finally it would seem the folly of haste and ignoring genuine "negotiations" is sinking into the minds of the US & and a select few EU nations.
I will remind all commentators that there is no need to haste in branding anyone is a winner or loser - the time is coming when all deserve to win and a solution based on truth and reconciliation and working together for a better future for all in Serbia including it's province of Kosovo & Metohija.
A stable and peaceful solution is especially deserving of all the Serbian citizens of it's province of Kosovo & Metohija - anything less is a loss for all.
To Serbs I say this is not an opportunity of gloating but an opportunity to ensure that solutions happen that are to the benefit of all citizens of Serbia irrespective of ethnicity. We have to understand the real perception of ethnic-Albanians in their fears of being dominated by Serbian institutions and ensure that they can learn to trust and not despise as we have allowed to happen in the past. This is a strategic opportunity that has a window of 2-3 months to provide a new future for Serbia, the Balkan region and EU & Russia. I think the US likes the wedge it creates but Serbia neeeds to show that we want genuine solutions and want the EU & Russia under the UN auspices to resolve the issue of KiM amicably for all concerned.
Ahtisaari plan +
- supervised autonomy under the EU guarantor - demilitarised Serbia as a whole - who needs guns - they are a waste of resource and no need to join NATO to fight US illegal wars! KiM integral to Serbia but genuiene self rule!!!
It is fairly absurd to blame yugoslavia's break up on serbia considering the situation in each of the republics at the time, im from bosnia and know far more than you so be quite cos you havent contributed atall!
Kosovo cannot leagelly become independant without Serbia's concent, there are many countries that oppose this discluding Russia, you cant just take a UN vote on wether or not your going to take 15% of someone elses land purely on the basis of a vote and a booming birth rate backed by expulsion of serbs. Who are you fooling?
Kosovo will never ever prosper in albanian hands, you cant even sort out your own country what are you going to do with a second albanian state? mess that up too?
I look forward to the reclaimation of the sacred land of the serbs, and albanians are welcome to live there just as they have for hundereds of years, but under our laws!
Matthew,
I think it would be very healthy to involve Europe in Russian affairs (I guess you understand why). Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one, that's the reason no one loves Russia and no one trusts Russia, in Central and Eastern Europe before all - except for the Serbs. So much for the history. And the today's Russia is waking up some of those old memories. As for Kosovo, 8 yrs. are more than enough. You see, the problem is in first place an economical one. After a first boom in the first 2 years, since 2001 everything, every developpment in Kosovo has been blocked by the unresolved status question. There are no jobs, and no jobs can be opened because a huge mountain of problems related to the status. And that kind of authonomy that Serbia offers cannot work, in no way. Serbia is a highly unstable country, with so many problems that it would be too long to list here. And Serbia cannot exercise its sovranity in Kosovo. The only rational solution is thus to keep them divided, ie. resolve the status with independence. Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems. It has been a hard work for the international diplomacy to force it to the Albanians and there is no further space for handling. Bosnia is a damned complicated thing, much ore than Kosovo, and for that reason it cannot be linked to it. (Here come ethical reasons too: Srebrenica etc. do not permit any repaying for those who commited atrocities). The solution anyway is very simple, dear Matthew: the Serbs should give up their idea of having a state for all Serbs and begin thinking to live as a minority or a population in other states. The Albanians have accepted it since long and they live in 5 different states by now. Why not the Serbs too? The strive for a unique Serbian state is on the basis of the Yugoslavian tragedy (which, apart from the immense human tragedy, resulted in 3 lost wars for Serbia). Try to think this way: it's much easier than new borders, population's exchange, land trading etc. Just let people live where they are and accept the reality. The rest, the normality, will come as a consequence. And, of course, open the borders like the Shengen area.
as far as I can see it here, only the k-albanians work with pseudo-historical arguments... "we are the illyrians, we live here 3000 years" and similar nonsense...
that´s what happens if you belittle the russian bear...
but to be serious: Russians never even cared for the k-albanians...they just do what´s in their own interest.
so, keep cool Albanians, you´ll enjoy broad autonomy, and after 8 years of albanian terror upon non-albanians that´s really a lot, I guess.
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
(Correctornot, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 18:08)
I agree with you 110%! The Internet chat site is not the Habermasian public sphere.
Sidi, you speak BIG for someone living in the US. Typical Diaspora nationalist mentality, saying "we" all the time and threatening apocalyptic rapture against your perceived enemies. "You" are in the US. Where does your loyalty really lie?
Correctornot - is right in every aspect. What both sides are proving with their comments is the real truth inthis story: Albanians and Serbs CAN NOT live with each other. An independent Kosova will be the best solution to end this situation and i think this is what will happen.
@James said: "Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments."
--Oooh yes, respect the treaty's , move the troops out, so NATO can move them in! Look James, Moscow had received in 1989 and 1990 from Western leaders numerous guarantees that, in return for allowing the unification of Germany to go forward, NATO would not move eastward. In this case NATO would not move an inch eastward. Today there seems to be no limit to the eastward expansion of the alliance. From 1994–96 Russians were led to believe that it would stop at Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. At that point NATO claimed that accepting the Baltic countries against Moscow’s objections would be unthinkable. But three or four years later it became quite thinkable. No one in his right mind would plan to have either Ukraine or Georgia in NATO! But three years have passed since the second wave of NATO enlargement, and now we hear that Ukraine and Georgia should be considered for membership! Same is today with the ten tiny little missiles in Poland. Once they become accepted facts on the ground, then who is to stop them becoming twenty big ones? Or a thousand?
"I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs."
"we here in Europe are pretty sure that Russia should at any cost stay out of European affairs."
Genc, in a way, I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as what the whole Kosovo situation is REALLY about.
In reality, I think its turned into a political game on what Russia's future role in Europe will be. Its more about the process then the result. Russia wants to be involved in Kosovo, not just because they are sympathetic to the Serbian cause, but because they want to show Europe and the world that they have an interest and an historical role in Europe.
In reality, its very healthy to have Russia involved in European affairs. It brings balance to the equation.
The reality of the opposition by Rehn to unilaterally declaring independence is that this will set off violent partition as Russia may feel incline to do a little unilateral recognition of their own in parts of Kosovo.
The fact is Ahtisaari's proposal is completely unfair to Serbians, it is only punishment for the crimes of Milosevic and in practical application, all the "protections" for minorities can be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly reserved for minorities.
I fully sympathize with Albanian desires to rule themselves and I do agree with many of your arguments. However, I do believe we can overcome our differences through peaceful diplomacy.
I believe that once Ahtisaari's plan fails in the UNSC, then we can sit down and have an honest discussion on the topic.
There is no reason to rush to a decision, hasty decisions and the Balkans don't mix. I know after 8 years you want the situation resolved. Try to keep in mind, we Serbs have been waiting longer for a real solution in Bosnia, but it doesn't look like anything there is changing whatsoever. We must be patient.
If the Albanians engage in violence, it will be game over. You will lose what little support you have in the EU from the countries ambivalent about Kosovo independence.
How do my fellow Serbs here think they will help our cause by insulting Albanians?
How do Albanians think they are getting anywhere by insulting Serbs?
We are all just proving the outside world that the solution to the problems on the Balkan to 'put a big fence around it and take a look in 100 years from now', is actually correct.
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
"…maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all…"
Well Massimo, as the things are going now, it could be that tsarist regin in Washington feels more heat then Moscow's.
By the way, isn't It interesting how West praised alleged freedom and democracy under Jeltsin, and keep attacking Putin for supposed autocracy. Actually, Putin didn't change a word from a Russian constitution which was made during Jeltsin area when Jeltsin gave himself a lot of power. Jeltsin dissolved and shelled a Parlament among the other things.
Putin never did anything even approaching such a monstrosity, yet, in western eyes, Jeltsin is a democrat. Very peculiar standards.
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=10867
Looks like this article hit a nerve with our Albanian contributors. They obviously realise that the plan is dead in the water and are trying to talk the story up. If that makes you feel better guys, then be my guest.
I just don't understand people how they can take this treaty thing out of the context and adjust it as they please. Russia has done nothing by rejecting the treaty.
The agreement in question, the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, known by the initials C.F.E., was signed in 1990 by the members of NATO and of the Warsaw Pact, including Russia.
It required the reduction and relocation of much of the main battle equipment then located along the East-West dividing lines, including tanks, artillery pieces, armored vehicles and attack aircraft. It also established an inspection regime.
Under the treaty more than 50,000 pieces of military equipment were converted or destroyed by 1995. With its initial ambitions largely achieved, it was renegotiated in 1999, adding a requirement that Russia withdraw its forces from Georgia and Moldova, two former Soviet republics where tensions and intrigue with Moscow run high.
Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments.
Furthermore, Warsaw Pact does not exist anymore. It is relic of history. Countries like Poland, Czech Republic, and Baltic Republics are already NATO members.
I just dont understand how this translates in Russia asserting its role in world affairs.
Lets imagine "A New Big State it's call European Union" - so there is no border, there is no conflict like Serbs vs Albanian.
I thinks NATO and EU going to this way.
It's always amazing to me how the pro-Albanian camp can take BAD NEWS and twist it around. The US is being exposed for the toothless tiger it has been for a long time. Does anyone remember that the US, seeing that the bombing campaign was not affecting the Serb military, wanted to invade Serbia? They even prepared for it, but then, when the generals said how difficult it would be to invade & occupy Serbia they backed down & signed Res 1244. Serbia is not Iraq or Afghanistan! Remember the invisible F-117? YOU ALBANIANS seriously over estimated yourselves and the USA! Now even your so called allies are telling you not to proclaim independence unilateral. Russia is stepping up & the US is backing down, how is this good news for you separatists? On a another note, how is the UN going to protect the MAJORITY Serbs in Kosovo if there is independence, when the EU lead by GERMANY is suppose to take over from the UN?
Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6549187.stm
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
Laki & co. please spare us of your "pitty" cause we don't want it/need it.Better save that pitty for your own countrymen of whom 60% are unemployed and live miserably in the biggest European dump called Kosovo.Speaking of Russia-i'd rather have them on our side,their oil and gas,then pathetic,impotent EU and already declining USA...
Whats gonna happen if Ahtisaari plan isnt passed through UN is Kosovo will become unilaterally independent and Kosovo serbs will be left with nothing because the Ahtisaari plan wont become binding. So again, serbs will shoot themselves in the foot. Same thing happened when they refused to sign the Z-4 plan for resolution of conflict in Krajina. In the end, they were left with nothing and everyone else apart from themselves will again be blamed.
Vladimir Putin's announcement that Russia was suspending its commitments under a European arms control pact, and Kosovo was barely raised.
This should raise some concerns around Washington and it has. The US has no choice but to compromise on the Ahtisarri Plan-Independance for Kosovo in the short term is higly unlikely.
Interesting the right timing from Russia, as Russians are financially expanding versus USA an already BANKRUPT country and in further contraction for the next 50 years, thanks to their congressmen and senators! So USA has no money to re-start a new cold world! close to one trillion $$ already gone in seven years just in Iraq, Serbia and Afghanistan. The USA Congress now is setting a limit to the neocons madness in iraq. I'm guessing little push from the Chinese, Russians and other CSO\CSTO member country's would be enough. Meanwhile, Mr. Lavrov in Oslo confirmed Russian staunchly opposition to Ahtisari ridiculous plan regrading Serbian Kosovo ;)
The marti plan is going to be REJECTED big time! And I know this hurts you albanians because your dreams are coming to an end forever. The book is about to be closed. marti is only fooling himself when he says his plan was balanced. Give me a break.
It's really funny how albanians think that the usa cares about them. The albanian leaders in KiM are just puppets of usa. They do as they are told.
It is precisely comments like those of "good afternoon", calling us "immigrants" in Kosovo, etc. that get our blood boiling and make us even more determined to never EVER EVER be ruled by Serbia again. If you think such demeaning comments will break our spirits, you are one naive young Serb. It is precisely because your nation is filled with people like yourself, that we want NOTHING to do with you! Go get a visa if you want to visit Kosova!
I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs. Better read it more carefully.
After all, it's so amusing reading such comments as the first two in this list. Blind stubborness led Serbia to where it is now. One can just figure what will happen, if the trend goes on.
USA & allies support us 100%. I would much rather have them on our side than Russia. If they recognize unilaterally, game over baby! Serbs will be left in the dry (AGAIN), while Russia will be left holding their veto card and looking really confused! It really must be terrible to be a Serbian politician these days.
Rex wrote:
"Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, "
So the independence issue (or lack of it), is really an Albanian problem, and not Serbia's...Correct?
I mean, perhaps Serbia should stop being blamed for all Kosovo's woes..The ball has been in your court for 8+ years..
Serbia's playing one armed tennis, and K-Albanians only need serve the ball..
Any tension, threats or shortcomings can only be blamed on the K-Albanians themselves..
well, none from the Kosovars really care will that plan be adapted or not, with or without Ahtisaris plan Kosovo will be Independent!!!!!!
Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, so why shall we care that much will that be accepted by Serbs&Russians actually!
I thought Alban, ????, Adi and Genc said Russia would not have a say when they said they were suspending a agreement concerns the number of arms on the borders of Europe. Kosovo took a back seat. Well i guess Russia finally spoke and everyone now is listening. Marti says don't mess with his proposal well marti is on the back burner now.
Well, I do not understand why some people think that Kosovo's independence is over.
By the contrary, I read confirmations of the Kosovo's independence planning.
I do not know if Russia want to start a war against NATO for the antimissile shield, NATO's enlargement or for Serbia.
Let'see, maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all.
Initial Gut Reaction:
Perhaps this unnamed diplomat can tell us his name. We would like to know. Then he could try presenting Ahtisaari's failed plan to the Security Council. If he dares. See how it goes. But surprise surprise he doesn't want to do that...
Peeling the layers:
"There is no questioning of the Ahtisaari plan, but there could be some adjustments" says the unnamed NATO Pact messenger boy. Lo and behold, ladies and gentlemen, we have a concession. First public admission that Ahtisaari's scribblings are alterable.
The Next Step:
We are working our way towards a proper UN resolution that will be acceptable to Serbia and take the Albanian immigrants worries into consideration. In other words talk of "conditional independence" is over and the new stage has begun: talk of "supervised autonomy".
Serbs never fail to amaze me with their ability to read something and misinterpret the message totally out of context. Well they have proven this numerous times during the history, every war/battle lost they turned it in the victory (the most recent war lost to NATO and returning as victorious in Serbia)
I pity your Serbs and your culture of mythomania
Initial Gut Reaction:
Perhaps this unnamed diplomat can tell us his name. We would like to know. Then he could try presenting Ahtisaari's failed plan to the Security Council. If he dares. See how it goes. But surprise surprise he doesn't want to do that...
Peeling the layers:
"There is no questioning of the Ahtisaari plan, but there could be some adjustments" says the unnamed NATO Pact messenger boy. Lo and behold, ladies and gentlemen, we have a concession. First public admission that Ahtisaari's scribblings are alterable.
The Next Step:
We are working our way towards a proper UN resolution that will be acceptable to Serbia and take the Albanian immigrants worries into consideration. In other words talk of "conditional independence" is over and the new stage has begun: talk of "supervised autonomy".
I thought Alban, ????, Adi and Genc said Russia would not have a say when they said they were suspending a agreement concerns the number of arms on the borders of Europe. Kosovo took a back seat. Well i guess Russia finally spoke and everyone now is listening. Marti says don't mess with his proposal well marti is on the back burner now.
well, none from the Kosovars really care will that plan be adapted or not, with or without Ahtisaris plan Kosovo will be Independent!!!!!!
Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, so why shall we care that much will that be accepted by Serbs&Russians actually!
Well, I do not understand why some people think that Kosovo's independence is over.
By the contrary, I read confirmations of the Kosovo's independence planning.
I do not know if Russia want to start a war against NATO for the antimissile shield, NATO's enlargement or for Serbia.
Let'see, maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all.
Serbs never fail to amaze me with their ability to read something and misinterpret the message totally out of context. Well they have proven this numerous times during the history, every war/battle lost they turned it in the victory (the most recent war lost to NATO and returning as victorious in Serbia)
I pity your Serbs and your culture of mythomania
USA & allies support us 100%. I would much rather have them on our side than Russia. If they recognize unilaterally, game over baby! Serbs will be left in the dry (AGAIN), while Russia will be left holding their veto card and looking really confused! It really must be terrible to be a Serbian politician these days.
I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs. Better read it more carefully.
After all, it's so amusing reading such comments as the first two in this list. Blind stubborness led Serbia to where it is now. One can just figure what will happen, if the trend goes on.
Rex wrote:
"Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, "
So the independence issue (or lack of it), is really an Albanian problem, and not Serbia's...Correct?
I mean, perhaps Serbia should stop being blamed for all Kosovo's woes..The ball has been in your court for 8+ years..
Serbia's playing one armed tennis, and K-Albanians only need serve the ball..
Any tension, threats or shortcomings can only be blamed on the K-Albanians themselves..
The marti plan is going to be REJECTED big time! And I know this hurts you albanians because your dreams are coming to an end forever. The book is about to be closed. marti is only fooling himself when he says his plan was balanced. Give me a break.
It's really funny how albanians think that the usa cares about them. The albanian leaders in KiM are just puppets of usa. They do as they are told.
Interesting the right timing from Russia, as Russians are financially expanding versus USA an already BANKRUPT country and in further contraction for the next 50 years, thanks to their congressmen and senators! So USA has no money to re-start a new cold world! close to one trillion $$ already gone in seven years just in Iraq, Serbia and Afghanistan. The USA Congress now is setting a limit to the neocons madness in iraq. I'm guessing little push from the Chinese, Russians and other CSO\CSTO member country's would be enough. Meanwhile, Mr. Lavrov in Oslo confirmed Russian staunchly opposition to Ahtisari ridiculous plan regrading Serbian Kosovo ;)
Vladimir Putin's announcement that Russia was suspending its commitments under a European arms control pact, and Kosovo was barely raised.
This should raise some concerns around Washington and it has. The US has no choice but to compromise on the Ahtisarri Plan-Independance for Kosovo in the short term is higly unlikely.
It is precisely comments like those of "good afternoon", calling us "immigrants" in Kosovo, etc. that get our blood boiling and make us even more determined to never EVER EVER be ruled by Serbia again. If you think such demeaning comments will break our spirits, you are one naive young Serb. It is precisely because your nation is filled with people like yourself, that we want NOTHING to do with you! Go get a visa if you want to visit Kosova!
Laki & co. please spare us of your "pitty" cause we don't want it/need it.Better save that pitty for your own countrymen of whom 60% are unemployed and live miserably in the biggest European dump called Kosovo.Speaking of Russia-i'd rather have them on our side,their oil and gas,then pathetic,impotent EU and already declining USA...
Whats gonna happen if Ahtisaari plan isnt passed through UN is Kosovo will become unilaterally independent and Kosovo serbs will be left with nothing because the Ahtisaari plan wont become binding. So again, serbs will shoot themselves in the foot. Same thing happened when they refused to sign the Z-4 plan for resolution of conflict in Krajina. In the end, they were left with nothing and everyone else apart from themselves will again be blamed.
Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6549187.stm
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
Lets imagine "A New Big State it's call European Union" - so there is no border, there is no conflict like Serbs vs Albanian.
I thinks NATO and EU going to this way.
"…maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all…"
Well Massimo, as the things are going now, it could be that tsarist regin in Washington feels more heat then Moscow's.
By the way, isn't It interesting how West praised alleged freedom and democracy under Jeltsin, and keep attacking Putin for supposed autocracy. Actually, Putin didn't change a word from a Russian constitution which was made during Jeltsin area when Jeltsin gave himself a lot of power. Jeltsin dissolved and shelled a Parlament among the other things.
Putin never did anything even approaching such a monstrosity, yet, in western eyes, Jeltsin is a democrat. Very peculiar standards.
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=10867
Looks like this article hit a nerve with our Albanian contributors. They obviously realise that the plan is dead in the water and are trying to talk the story up. If that makes you feel better guys, then be my guest.
I just don't understand people how they can take this treaty thing out of the context and adjust it as they please. Russia has done nothing by rejecting the treaty.
The agreement in question, the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, known by the initials C.F.E., was signed in 1990 by the members of NATO and of the Warsaw Pact, including Russia.
It required the reduction and relocation of much of the main battle equipment then located along the East-West dividing lines, including tanks, artillery pieces, armored vehicles and attack aircraft. It also established an inspection regime.
Under the treaty more than 50,000 pieces of military equipment were converted or destroyed by 1995. With its initial ambitions largely achieved, it was renegotiated in 1999, adding a requirement that Russia withdraw its forces from Georgia and Moldova, two former Soviet republics where tensions and intrigue with Moscow run high.
Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments.
Furthermore, Warsaw Pact does not exist anymore. It is relic of history. Countries like Poland, Czech Republic, and Baltic Republics are already NATO members.
I just dont understand how this translates in Russia asserting its role in world affairs.
It's always amazing to me how the pro-Albanian camp can take BAD NEWS and twist it around. The US is being exposed for the toothless tiger it has been for a long time. Does anyone remember that the US, seeing that the bombing campaign was not affecting the Serb military, wanted to invade Serbia? They even prepared for it, but then, when the generals said how difficult it would be to invade & occupy Serbia they backed down & signed Res 1244. Serbia is not Iraq or Afghanistan! Remember the invisible F-117? YOU ALBANIANS seriously over estimated yourselves and the USA! Now even your so called allies are telling you not to proclaim independence unilateral. Russia is stepping up & the US is backing down, how is this good news for you separatists? On a another note, how is the UN going to protect the MAJORITY Serbs in Kosovo if there is independence, when the EU lead by GERMANY is suppose to take over from the UN?
How do my fellow Serbs here think they will help our cause by insulting Albanians?
How do Albanians think they are getting anywhere by insulting Serbs?
We are all just proving the outside world that the solution to the problems on the Balkan to 'put a big fence around it and take a look in 100 years from now', is actually correct.
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
@James said: "Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments."
--Oooh yes, respect the treaty's , move the troops out, so NATO can move them in! Look James, Moscow had received in 1989 and 1990 from Western leaders numerous guarantees that, in return for allowing the unification of Germany to go forward, NATO would not move eastward. In this case NATO would not move an inch eastward. Today there seems to be no limit to the eastward expansion of the alliance. From 1994–96 Russians were led to believe that it would stop at Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. At that point NATO claimed that accepting the Baltic countries against Moscow’s objections would be unthinkable. But three or four years later it became quite thinkable. No one in his right mind would plan to have either Ukraine or Georgia in NATO! But three years have passed since the second wave of NATO enlargement, and now we hear that Ukraine and Georgia should be considered for membership! Same is today with the ten tiny little missiles in Poland. Once they become accepted facts on the ground, then who is to stop them becoming twenty big ones? Or a thousand?
"I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs."
"we here in Europe are pretty sure that Russia should at any cost stay out of European affairs."
Genc, in a way, I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as what the whole Kosovo situation is REALLY about.
In reality, I think its turned into a political game on what Russia's future role in Europe will be. Its more about the process then the result. Russia wants to be involved in Kosovo, not just because they are sympathetic to the Serbian cause, but because they want to show Europe and the world that they have an interest and an historical role in Europe.
In reality, its very healthy to have Russia involved in European affairs. It brings balance to the equation.
The reality of the opposition by Rehn to unilaterally declaring independence is that this will set off violent partition as Russia may feel incline to do a little unilateral recognition of their own in parts of Kosovo.
The fact is Ahtisaari's proposal is completely unfair to Serbians, it is only punishment for the crimes of Milosevic and in practical application, all the "protections" for minorities can be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly reserved for minorities.
I fully sympathize with Albanian desires to rule themselves and I do agree with many of your arguments. However, I do believe we can overcome our differences through peaceful diplomacy.
I believe that once Ahtisaari's plan fails in the UNSC, then we can sit down and have an honest discussion on the topic.
There is no reason to rush to a decision, hasty decisions and the Balkans don't mix. I know after 8 years you want the situation resolved. Try to keep in mind, we Serbs have been waiting longer for a real solution in Bosnia, but it doesn't look like anything there is changing whatsoever. We must be patient.
If the Albanians engage in violence, it will be game over. You will lose what little support you have in the EU from the countries ambivalent about Kosovo independence.
Correctornot - is right in every aspect. What both sides are proving with their comments is the real truth inthis story: Albanians and Serbs CAN NOT live with each other. An independent Kosova will be the best solution to end this situation and i think this is what will happen.
Sidi, you speak BIG for someone living in the US. Typical Diaspora nationalist mentality, saying "we" all the time and threatening apocalyptic rapture against your perceived enemies. "You" are in the US. Where does your loyalty really lie?
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
(Correctornot, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 18:08)
I agree with you 110%! The Internet chat site is not the Habermasian public sphere.
as far as I can see it here, only the k-albanians work with pseudo-historical arguments... "we are the illyrians, we live here 3000 years" and similar nonsense...
that´s what happens if you belittle the russian bear...
but to be serious: Russians never even cared for the k-albanians...they just do what´s in their own interest.
so, keep cool Albanians, you´ll enjoy broad autonomy, and after 8 years of albanian terror upon non-albanians that´s really a lot, I guess.
Matthew,
I think it would be very healthy to involve Europe in Russian affairs (I guess you understand why). Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one, that's the reason no one loves Russia and no one trusts Russia, in Central and Eastern Europe before all - except for the Serbs. So much for the history. And the today's Russia is waking up some of those old memories. As for Kosovo, 8 yrs. are more than enough. You see, the problem is in first place an economical one. After a first boom in the first 2 years, since 2001 everything, every developpment in Kosovo has been blocked by the unresolved status question. There are no jobs, and no jobs can be opened because a huge mountain of problems related to the status. And that kind of authonomy that Serbia offers cannot work, in no way. Serbia is a highly unstable country, with so many problems that it would be too long to list here. And Serbia cannot exercise its sovranity in Kosovo. The only rational solution is thus to keep them divided, ie. resolve the status with independence. Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems. It has been a hard work for the international diplomacy to force it to the Albanians and there is no further space for handling. Bosnia is a damned complicated thing, much ore than Kosovo, and for that reason it cannot be linked to it. (Here come ethical reasons too: Srebrenica etc. do not permit any repaying for those who commited atrocities). The solution anyway is very simple, dear Matthew: the Serbs should give up their idea of having a state for all Serbs and begin thinking to live as a minority or a population in other states. The Albanians have accepted it since long and they live in 5 different states by now. Why not the Serbs too? The strive for a unique Serbian state is on the basis of the Yugoslavian tragedy (which, apart from the immense human tragedy, resulted in 3 lost wars for Serbia). Try to think this way: it's much easier than new borders, population's exchange, land trading etc. Just let people live where they are and accept the reality. The rest, the normality, will come as a consequence. And, of course, open the borders like the Shengen area.
It is fairly absurd to blame yugoslavia's break up on serbia considering the situation in each of the republics at the time, im from bosnia and know far more than you so be quite cos you havent contributed atall!
Kosovo cannot leagelly become independant without Serbia's concent, there are many countries that oppose this discluding Russia, you cant just take a UN vote on wether or not your going to take 15% of someone elses land purely on the basis of a vote and a booming birth rate backed by expulsion of serbs. Who are you fooling?
Kosovo will never ever prosper in albanian hands, you cant even sort out your own country what are you going to do with a second albanian state? mess that up too?
I look forward to the reclaimation of the sacred land of the serbs, and albanians are welcome to live there just as they have for hundereds of years, but under our laws!
Finally it would seem the folly of haste and ignoring genuine "negotiations" is sinking into the minds of the US & and a select few EU nations.
I will remind all commentators that there is no need to haste in branding anyone is a winner or loser - the time is coming when all deserve to win and a solution based on truth and reconciliation and working together for a better future for all in Serbia including it's province of Kosovo & Metohija.
A stable and peaceful solution is especially deserving of all the Serbian citizens of it's province of Kosovo & Metohija - anything less is a loss for all.
To Serbs I say this is not an opportunity of gloating but an opportunity to ensure that solutions happen that are to the benefit of all citizens of Serbia irrespective of ethnicity. We have to understand the real perception of ethnic-Albanians in their fears of being dominated by Serbian institutions and ensure that they can learn to trust and not despise as we have allowed to happen in the past. This is a strategic opportunity that has a window of 2-3 months to provide a new future for Serbia, the Balkan region and EU & Russia. I think the US likes the wedge it creates but Serbia neeeds to show that we want genuine solutions and want the EU & Russia under the UN auspices to resolve the issue of KiM amicably for all concerned.
Ahtisaari plan +
- supervised autonomy under the EU guarantor - demilitarised Serbia as a whole - who needs guns - they are a waste of resource and no need to join NATO to fight US illegal wars! KiM integral to Serbia but genuiene self rule!!!
I haven't contributed to B92 for a month or two as it appeared that the site wasn't about intelligent discusion but more about spoilt children peddling half truths, conspiracy theories.
I usually search out Mike's comments as he's clearly a chap who can argue with sense, intelligence and without nasty blinkered nationalism.
I'm very much in the Serbian camp due to my Anglo/Serb heritage (think thats the signal for the shouts of 'if you love Serbia why dont you live/move there!) however, i dont dismiss Albanian comments and views with blind arrogance.
Arguements about which country is 'tougher' vis-a-vis Russia or US, are stupid, purile and serve no purpose. Lets raise the bar chaps. Its emotive and it means much to all people in the Region. Serbs, Albanians, Roma amongst others all have a special place for Kosovo and Metohija. Let us debate like adults.
"Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one"
Genc,
I wouldn't say that was entirely true. I think Stalin was the exception, he truly was a villain of epic proportions and a very nasty fellow (His victims count in the tens of millions, makes Milosevic look like a nice guy, lol), but he just grabbed what he could of the Nazi Empire, I don't think he would have done that if they weren't there just for the taking. Discounting that era, Russia really was about the same as any other European Power, if anything much less imperialistic. However, I can see why many European countries wouldn't like Russia, its obvious.
I am not a supporter of autonomy, I support the right for Kosovar Albanians to either have their own state, or join with Albania. I also support the same solution for Presevo. Many Serbs do not like me for those reasons, but I came to that conclusion because it seems to make the most sense to me and I believe in it.
However, I support partition. Serbs must have something to which we can refer to as Kosovo, or its only a temporary solution to a complex problem that has troubled the Serbian heart for many centuries. It is my firm belief that with the inclusion of Presevo that most Albanians would be willing to live with such a situation, even if they do not embrace it. If we need to wait for Ahtisaari's proposal to fail to have this discussion, then so be it.
I do understand your concerns that delay is hurting economic development, but in reality, Kosovo (and Albania) have never had much of an economy and I don't see it developing rapidly. I fully understand how things work in the Balkans, service is terrible and everything is done on the "down low". The funny thing to me is, after spending 6 months living in Belgrade, when I went to Bosnia it felt like the West it was so much more developed because of the Western occupation. The West stealing the Trepca mines should concern you far more then any delay of a resolution of status. Maybe if the Albanian people there were more vocal in condemning the possible use of violence to solve the issue, or didn't engage in the 2004 riots, the West would be more interested in investing there. Personally, I think you will find Western investment a mixed blessing if how they handled the Trepca mines is any indication of what they have in store for your people.
The fact is in those countries where Serbians were traditionally abused as a minority are those countries in which we had violent conflict. No significant sustained violence broke out in Slovenia, Montenegro or Macedonia. We were cleansed from Croatia nearly completely, and to be honest, after what happened in 2004 in Kosovo, I fear the same for our people and our deep history there. Its not about wanting to live in one country, its about being free from repression. Think how you feel about Belgrade rule, now consider that the Serbs suffered at least as much (if not more) as you under the Ustashe. Can you really blame us for not wanting to live under the Croatians? We all knew they would ethnically cleanse us of Croatia and finally achieve the Ustashe dream. We must accept the fact that none of us in the Balkans really truly has a good history of protecting the rights of the others.
"Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems."
Yeah, already we have issues there. Many Albanians are not happy with the rights given to the Serbs, and the natural desire will be to change those, and lucky for you Ahtisaari made it easy. Read Paragraph 3.7 from Ahtisaari's proposal. Then think how much pressure that may put on the other minorities in Kosovo, particularly the Roma, if Albanians decide to attempt to change these rights.
"3.7 The following laws shall require for their adoption, amendment or repeal both the majority of the Assembly members present and voting and the majority of the Assembly members holding seats reserved or guaranteed for representatives of Communities that are not in the majority in Kosovo:
a. Laws changing municipal boundaries, establishing or abolishing municipalities, defining the scope of powers of municipalities and their participation in inter- municipal and cross-border relations;
b. Laws implementing the rights of Communities and their members, other than those set forth in the Constitution;
c. Laws on the use of language;
d. Laws on local elections;
e. Laws on the protection of cultural heritage;
f. Laws on religious freedom or on agreements with religious communities;
g. Laws on education;
h. Laws on the use of symbols (including Community symbols) and on public holidays."
Trust me Genc that I want peace and prosperity in the Balkans as much as you do. I feel badly about the way you guys were treated under Milosevic. I'm educated enough to know that the current and past situations were unworkable. However, I can also see that Ahtisaari's plan as it stands now is a disaster waiting to happen and simply doesn't address the root causes of the problems in the Balkans. We need a regional solution based on what will work, not on who did what to whom. We all have an extremely bad record of human rights abuses.
The simple fact of the matter is if the Albanian population had not engaged in retaliatory attacks and the 2004 riots we would not be having this conversation and you would already have independence.
Well i am sorry Genc i mis read your statement and actually the last one was ok until you started mentioning Bosnia, we are speaking of Kosovo. Repayment will not bring back the dead, or rebuild the lost memories. I would hope everyone would come to a workable agreement. NATO has advise the Kosovo Goverment not to go off on its own and declare independence. I believe for those who want to do this should listen.
"Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
[link]
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
(Afrim Hoxha, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 16:45)"
Of course Russia must take care of her own interests first. That is the basic obligation of any government, including the US. I believe they are in Kosovo primarily because of Bondsteel.
This Tadic interview was in early April, just BEFORE the Russians started to make their veto threat explicit. And what happened once the Russians openly stated in MID-April that Ahtissari's plan will not pass the UN? The West agreed to a UN mission to Kosovo. Then the US announced (via conveniently anonymous diplomats) that they are now willing to make amendments to the Ahtissaari proposal. Seems more to me that it is the West that is retreating.
To Laki of NY, the math is very clear, but your obvious romanticism to the Albanian talking points may make it unclear to you and others. First, it is clear that Russia will veto any imposed solution in the UN. Second, NATO has warned the Albanians against any unilateral declarations because it is agreed by all that the only legitimacy for independence comes through the UN. Third, Rehn has stated that the UN Security Council is the only legitimate process for achieving independence. Given the foregoing, there is no way under international law, the UN Charter or Resolution 1244 that Kosovo can be amputated from Serbia. Yours and similar rhetoric is like leaves in the wind, they just blow around without any substance to them. The world is taking note of the respective arguments and realizing the precedent that amputating Serbia would cause. The Albanians only offer threats of instability, and the world will not accept your blackmail. Checkmate!
so if kosovo remains in serbia,how do you see the future of serbia ,with about half of its citizens clearly opposed to the central gouvernement?(because presheva,sandjak and voivodoina will very often join kosovo in opposition to serbs)
in serbia,we will be the one to decide of who will be your president or your prime,funny no?
and believe me that we will know how to vote so that you have the maximum mess!
so better stop all your false revendication and let kosovo go!
Yes, it is correct statement that "there could be some adjustments" to the Ahtisaari's plan - adjustments that could lead to a bona-fide compromise, making a broad-based autonomy for Kosovo.
Initial Gut Reaction:
Perhaps this unnamed diplomat can tell us his name. We would like to know. Then he could try presenting Ahtisaari's failed plan to the Security Council. If he dares. See how it goes. But surprise surprise he doesn't want to do that...
Peeling the layers:
"There is no questioning of the Ahtisaari plan, but there could be some adjustments" says the unnamed NATO Pact messenger boy. Lo and behold, ladies and gentlemen, we have a concession. First public admission that Ahtisaari's scribblings are alterable.
The Next Step:
We are working our way towards a proper UN resolution that will be acceptable to Serbia and take the Albanian immigrants worries into consideration. In other words talk of "conditional independence" is over and the new stage has begun: talk of "supervised autonomy".
I thought Alban, ????, Adi and Genc said Russia would not have a say when they said they were suspending a agreement concerns the number of arms on the borders of Europe. Kosovo took a back seat. Well i guess Russia finally spoke and everyone now is listening. Marti says don't mess with his proposal well marti is on the back burner now.
well, none from the Kosovars really care will that plan be adapted or not, with or without Ahtisaris plan Kosovo will be Independent!!!!!!
Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, so why shall we care that much will that be accepted by Serbs&Russians actually!
Well, I do not understand why some people think that Kosovo's independence is over.
By the contrary, I read confirmations of the Kosovo's independence planning.
I do not know if Russia want to start a war against NATO for the antimissile shield, NATO's enlargement or for Serbia.
Let'see, maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all.
Serbs never fail to amaze me with their ability to read something and misinterpret the message totally out of context. Well they have proven this numerous times during the history, every war/battle lost they turned it in the victory (the most recent war lost to NATO and returning as victorious in Serbia)
I pity your Serbs and your culture of mythomania
USA & allies support us 100%. I would much rather have them on our side than Russia. If they recognize unilaterally, game over baby! Serbs will be left in the dry (AGAIN), while Russia will be left holding their veto card and looking really confused! It really must be terrible to be a Serbian politician these days.
I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs. Better read it more carefully.
After all, it's so amusing reading such comments as the first two in this list. Blind stubborness led Serbia to where it is now. One can just figure what will happen, if the trend goes on.
Rex wrote:
"Ahtisaris plan actually is about serbs in an independent Kosovo, "
So the independence issue (or lack of it), is really an Albanian problem, and not Serbia's...Correct?
I mean, perhaps Serbia should stop being blamed for all Kosovo's woes..The ball has been in your court for 8+ years..
Serbia's playing one armed tennis, and K-Albanians only need serve the ball..
Any tension, threats or shortcomings can only be blamed on the K-Albanians themselves..
The marti plan is going to be REJECTED big time! And I know this hurts you albanians because your dreams are coming to an end forever. The book is about to be closed. marti is only fooling himself when he says his plan was balanced. Give me a break.
It's really funny how albanians think that the usa cares about them. The albanian leaders in KiM are just puppets of usa. They do as they are told.
Interesting the right timing from Russia, as Russians are financially expanding versus USA an already BANKRUPT country and in further contraction for the next 50 years, thanks to their congressmen and senators! So USA has no money to re-start a new cold world! close to one trillion $$ already gone in seven years just in Iraq, Serbia and Afghanistan. The USA Congress now is setting a limit to the neocons madness in iraq. I'm guessing little push from the Chinese, Russians and other CSO\CSTO member country's would be enough. Meanwhile, Mr. Lavrov in Oslo confirmed Russian staunchly opposition to Ahtisari ridiculous plan regrading Serbian Kosovo ;)
Vladimir Putin's announcement that Russia was suspending its commitments under a European arms control pact, and Kosovo was barely raised.
This should raise some concerns around Washington and it has. The US has no choice but to compromise on the Ahtisarri Plan-Independance for Kosovo in the short term is higly unlikely.
It is precisely comments like those of "good afternoon", calling us "immigrants" in Kosovo, etc. that get our blood boiling and make us even more determined to never EVER EVER be ruled by Serbia again. If you think such demeaning comments will break our spirits, you are one naive young Serb. It is precisely because your nation is filled with people like yourself, that we want NOTHING to do with you! Go get a visa if you want to visit Kosova!
Laki & co. please spare us of your "pitty" cause we don't want it/need it.Better save that pitty for your own countrymen of whom 60% are unemployed and live miserably in the biggest European dump called Kosovo.Speaking of Russia-i'd rather have them on our side,their oil and gas,then pathetic,impotent EU and already declining USA...
Whats gonna happen if Ahtisaari plan isnt passed through UN is Kosovo will become unilaterally independent and Kosovo serbs will be left with nothing because the Ahtisaari plan wont become binding. So again, serbs will shoot themselves in the foot. Same thing happened when they refused to sign the Z-4 plan for resolution of conflict in Krajina. In the end, they were left with nothing and everyone else apart from themselves will again be blamed.
Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6549187.stm
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
Lets imagine "A New Big State it's call European Union" - so there is no border, there is no conflict like Serbs vs Albanian.
I thinks NATO and EU going to this way.
"…maybe it is time to put an end to the little czar reign in Moscow, once for all…"
Well Massimo, as the things are going now, it could be that tsarist regin in Washington feels more heat then Moscow's.
By the way, isn't It interesting how West praised alleged freedom and democracy under Jeltsin, and keep attacking Putin for supposed autocracy. Actually, Putin didn't change a word from a Russian constitution which was made during Jeltsin area when Jeltsin gave himself a lot of power. Jeltsin dissolved and shelled a Parlament among the other things.
Putin never did anything even approaching such a monstrosity, yet, in western eyes, Jeltsin is a democrat. Very peculiar standards.
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=10867
Looks like this article hit a nerve with our Albanian contributors. They obviously realise that the plan is dead in the water and are trying to talk the story up. If that makes you feel better guys, then be my guest.
I just don't understand people how they can take this treaty thing out of the context and adjust it as they please. Russia has done nothing by rejecting the treaty.
The agreement in question, the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, known by the initials C.F.E., was signed in 1990 by the members of NATO and of the Warsaw Pact, including Russia.
It required the reduction and relocation of much of the main battle equipment then located along the East-West dividing lines, including tanks, artillery pieces, armored vehicles and attack aircraft. It also established an inspection regime.
Under the treaty more than 50,000 pieces of military equipment were converted or destroyed by 1995. With its initial ambitions largely achieved, it was renegotiated in 1999, adding a requirement that Russia withdraw its forces from Georgia and Moldova, two former Soviet republics where tensions and intrigue with Moscow run high.
Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments.
Furthermore, Warsaw Pact does not exist anymore. It is relic of history. Countries like Poland, Czech Republic, and Baltic Republics are already NATO members.
I just dont understand how this translates in Russia asserting its role in world affairs.
It's always amazing to me how the pro-Albanian camp can take BAD NEWS and twist it around. The US is being exposed for the toothless tiger it has been for a long time. Does anyone remember that the US, seeing that the bombing campaign was not affecting the Serb military, wanted to invade Serbia? They even prepared for it, but then, when the generals said how difficult it would be to invade & occupy Serbia they backed down & signed Res 1244. Serbia is not Iraq or Afghanistan! Remember the invisible F-117? YOU ALBANIANS seriously over estimated yourselves and the USA! Now even your so called allies are telling you not to proclaim independence unilateral. Russia is stepping up & the US is backing down, how is this good news for you separatists? On a another note, how is the UN going to protect the MAJORITY Serbs in Kosovo if there is independence, when the EU lead by GERMANY is suppose to take over from the UN?
How do my fellow Serbs here think they will help our cause by insulting Albanians?
How do Albanians think they are getting anywhere by insulting Serbs?
We are all just proving the outside world that the solution to the problems on the Balkan to 'put a big fence around it and take a look in 100 years from now', is actually correct.
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
@James said: "Russia has not withdrawn its troops, and the revised treaty has not been ratified by most of the signing nations, including the United States, which has withheld ratification until the Kremlin complies with the troop withdrawal commitments."
--Oooh yes, respect the treaty's , move the troops out, so NATO can move them in! Look James, Moscow had received in 1989 and 1990 from Western leaders numerous guarantees that, in return for allowing the unification of Germany to go forward, NATO would not move eastward. In this case NATO would not move an inch eastward. Today there seems to be no limit to the eastward expansion of the alliance. From 1994–96 Russians were led to believe that it would stop at Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. At that point NATO claimed that accepting the Baltic countries against Moscow’s objections would be unthinkable. But three or four years later it became quite thinkable. No one in his right mind would plan to have either Ukraine or Georgia in NATO! But three years have passed since the second wave of NATO enlargement, and now we hear that Ukraine and Georgia should be considered for membership! Same is today with the ten tiny little missiles in Poland. Once they become accepted facts on the ground, then who is to stop them becoming twenty big ones? Or a thousand?
"I'm afraid you have totally misinterpreted my comment, in response to Matthew's wish for Russia to be bound to European affairs."
"we here in Europe are pretty sure that Russia should at any cost stay out of European affairs."
Genc, in a way, I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as what the whole Kosovo situation is REALLY about.
In reality, I think its turned into a political game on what Russia's future role in Europe will be. Its more about the process then the result. Russia wants to be involved in Kosovo, not just because they are sympathetic to the Serbian cause, but because they want to show Europe and the world that they have an interest and an historical role in Europe.
In reality, its very healthy to have Russia involved in European affairs. It brings balance to the equation.
The reality of the opposition by Rehn to unilaterally declaring independence is that this will set off violent partition as Russia may feel incline to do a little unilateral recognition of their own in parts of Kosovo.
The fact is Ahtisaari's proposal is completely unfair to Serbians, it is only punishment for the crimes of Milosevic and in practical application, all the "protections" for minorities can be abolished with a simple majority vote of the seats in the assembly reserved for minorities.
I fully sympathize with Albanian desires to rule themselves and I do agree with many of your arguments. However, I do believe we can overcome our differences through peaceful diplomacy.
I believe that once Ahtisaari's plan fails in the UNSC, then we can sit down and have an honest discussion on the topic.
There is no reason to rush to a decision, hasty decisions and the Balkans don't mix. I know after 8 years you want the situation resolved. Try to keep in mind, we Serbs have been waiting longer for a real solution in Bosnia, but it doesn't look like anything there is changing whatsoever. We must be patient.
If the Albanians engage in violence, it will be game over. You will lose what little support you have in the EU from the countries ambivalent about Kosovo independence.
Correctornot - is right in every aspect. What both sides are proving with their comments is the real truth inthis story: Albanians and Serbs CAN NOT live with each other. An independent Kosova will be the best solution to end this situation and i think this is what will happen.
Sidi, you speak BIG for someone living in the US. Typical Diaspora nationalist mentality, saying "we" all the time and threatening apocalyptic rapture against your perceived enemies. "You" are in the US. Where does your loyalty really lie?
I'm saddened by the low level of commenting, reasoning and lack of ANY real arguments except pseudo-historical.
This is about real lives, real people. Not a game.
(Correctornot, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 18:08)
I agree with you 110%! The Internet chat site is not the Habermasian public sphere.
as far as I can see it here, only the k-albanians work with pseudo-historical arguments... "we are the illyrians, we live here 3000 years" and similar nonsense...
that´s what happens if you belittle the russian bear...
but to be serious: Russians never even cared for the k-albanians...they just do what´s in their own interest.
so, keep cool Albanians, you´ll enjoy broad autonomy, and after 8 years of albanian terror upon non-albanians that´s really a lot, I guess.
Matthew,
I think it would be very healthy to involve Europe in Russian affairs (I guess you understand why). Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one, that's the reason no one loves Russia and no one trusts Russia, in Central and Eastern Europe before all - except for the Serbs. So much for the history. And the today's Russia is waking up some of those old memories. As for Kosovo, 8 yrs. are more than enough. You see, the problem is in first place an economical one. After a first boom in the first 2 years, since 2001 everything, every developpment in Kosovo has been blocked by the unresolved status question. There are no jobs, and no jobs can be opened because a huge mountain of problems related to the status. And that kind of authonomy that Serbia offers cannot work, in no way. Serbia is a highly unstable country, with so many problems that it would be too long to list here. And Serbia cannot exercise its sovranity in Kosovo. The only rational solution is thus to keep them divided, ie. resolve the status with independence. Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems. It has been a hard work for the international diplomacy to force it to the Albanians and there is no further space for handling. Bosnia is a damned complicated thing, much ore than Kosovo, and for that reason it cannot be linked to it. (Here come ethical reasons too: Srebrenica etc. do not permit any repaying for those who commited atrocities). The solution anyway is very simple, dear Matthew: the Serbs should give up their idea of having a state for all Serbs and begin thinking to live as a minority or a population in other states. The Albanians have accepted it since long and they live in 5 different states by now. Why not the Serbs too? The strive for a unique Serbian state is on the basis of the Yugoslavian tragedy (which, apart from the immense human tragedy, resulted in 3 lost wars for Serbia). Try to think this way: it's much easier than new borders, population's exchange, land trading etc. Just let people live where they are and accept the reality. The rest, the normality, will come as a consequence. And, of course, open the borders like the Shengen area.
It is fairly absurd to blame yugoslavia's break up on serbia considering the situation in each of the republics at the time, im from bosnia and know far more than you so be quite cos you havent contributed atall!
Kosovo cannot leagelly become independant without Serbia's concent, there are many countries that oppose this discluding Russia, you cant just take a UN vote on wether or not your going to take 15% of someone elses land purely on the basis of a vote and a booming birth rate backed by expulsion of serbs. Who are you fooling?
Kosovo will never ever prosper in albanian hands, you cant even sort out your own country what are you going to do with a second albanian state? mess that up too?
I look forward to the reclaimation of the sacred land of the serbs, and albanians are welcome to live there just as they have for hundereds of years, but under our laws!
Finally it would seem the folly of haste and ignoring genuine "negotiations" is sinking into the minds of the US & and a select few EU nations.
I will remind all commentators that there is no need to haste in branding anyone is a winner or loser - the time is coming when all deserve to win and a solution based on truth and reconciliation and working together for a better future for all in Serbia including it's province of Kosovo & Metohija.
A stable and peaceful solution is especially deserving of all the Serbian citizens of it's province of Kosovo & Metohija - anything less is a loss for all.
To Serbs I say this is not an opportunity of gloating but an opportunity to ensure that solutions happen that are to the benefit of all citizens of Serbia irrespective of ethnicity. We have to understand the real perception of ethnic-Albanians in their fears of being dominated by Serbian institutions and ensure that they can learn to trust and not despise as we have allowed to happen in the past. This is a strategic opportunity that has a window of 2-3 months to provide a new future for Serbia, the Balkan region and EU & Russia. I think the US likes the wedge it creates but Serbia neeeds to show that we want genuine solutions and want the EU & Russia under the UN auspices to resolve the issue of KiM amicably for all concerned.
Ahtisaari plan +
- supervised autonomy under the EU guarantor - demilitarised Serbia as a whole - who needs guns - they are a waste of resource and no need to join NATO to fight US illegal wars! KiM integral to Serbia but genuiene self rule!!!
I haven't contributed to B92 for a month or two as it appeared that the site wasn't about intelligent discusion but more about spoilt children peddling half truths, conspiracy theories.
I usually search out Mike's comments as he's clearly a chap who can argue with sense, intelligence and without nasty blinkered nationalism.
I'm very much in the Serbian camp due to my Anglo/Serb heritage (think thats the signal for the shouts of 'if you love Serbia why dont you live/move there!) however, i dont dismiss Albanian comments and views with blind arrogance.
Arguements about which country is 'tougher' vis-a-vis Russia or US, are stupid, purile and serve no purpose. Lets raise the bar chaps. Its emotive and it means much to all people in the Region. Serbs, Albanians, Roma amongst others all have a special place for Kosovo and Metohija. Let us debate like adults.
"Russia's policy in Europe has always been an imperialistic one"
Genc,
I wouldn't say that was entirely true. I think Stalin was the exception, he truly was a villain of epic proportions and a very nasty fellow (His victims count in the tens of millions, makes Milosevic look like a nice guy, lol), but he just grabbed what he could of the Nazi Empire, I don't think he would have done that if they weren't there just for the taking. Discounting that era, Russia really was about the same as any other European Power, if anything much less imperialistic. However, I can see why many European countries wouldn't like Russia, its obvious.
I am not a supporter of autonomy, I support the right for Kosovar Albanians to either have their own state, or join with Albania. I also support the same solution for Presevo. Many Serbs do not like me for those reasons, but I came to that conclusion because it seems to make the most sense to me and I believe in it.
However, I support partition. Serbs must have something to which we can refer to as Kosovo, or its only a temporary solution to a complex problem that has troubled the Serbian heart for many centuries. It is my firm belief that with the inclusion of Presevo that most Albanians would be willing to live with such a situation, even if they do not embrace it. If we need to wait for Ahtisaari's proposal to fail to have this discussion, then so be it.
I do understand your concerns that delay is hurting economic development, but in reality, Kosovo (and Albania) have never had much of an economy and I don't see it developing rapidly. I fully understand how things work in the Balkans, service is terrible and everything is done on the "down low". The funny thing to me is, after spending 6 months living in Belgrade, when I went to Bosnia it felt like the West it was so much more developed because of the Western occupation. The West stealing the Trepca mines should concern you far more then any delay of a resolution of status. Maybe if the Albanian people there were more vocal in condemning the possible use of violence to solve the issue, or didn't engage in the 2004 riots, the West would be more interested in investing there. Personally, I think you will find Western investment a mixed blessing if how they handled the Trepca mines is any indication of what they have in store for your people.
The fact is in those countries where Serbians were traditionally abused as a minority are those countries in which we had violent conflict. No significant sustained violence broke out in Slovenia, Montenegro or Macedonia. We were cleansed from Croatia nearly completely, and to be honest, after what happened in 2004 in Kosovo, I fear the same for our people and our deep history there. Its not about wanting to live in one country, its about being free from repression. Think how you feel about Belgrade rule, now consider that the Serbs suffered at least as much (if not more) as you under the Ustashe. Can you really blame us for not wanting to live under the Croatians? We all knew they would ethnically cleanse us of Croatia and finally achieve the Ustashe dream. We must accept the fact that none of us in the Balkans really truly has a good history of protecting the rights of the others.
"Ahtisaari's plan is not perfect, of course: it gives to the Serbs overwhelming rights, which could make Kosovo not functional and bear the seeds of future problems."
Yeah, already we have issues there. Many Albanians are not happy with the rights given to the Serbs, and the natural desire will be to change those, and lucky for you Ahtisaari made it easy. Read Paragraph 3.7 from Ahtisaari's proposal. Then think how much pressure that may put on the other minorities in Kosovo, particularly the Roma, if Albanians decide to attempt to change these rights.
"3.7 The following laws shall require for their adoption, amendment or repeal both the majority of the Assembly members present and voting and the majority of the Assembly members holding seats reserved or guaranteed for representatives of Communities that are not in the majority in Kosovo:
a. Laws changing municipal boundaries, establishing or abolishing municipalities, defining the scope of powers of municipalities and their participation in inter- municipal and cross-border relations;
b. Laws implementing the rights of Communities and their members, other than those set forth in the Constitution;
c. Laws on the use of language;
d. Laws on local elections;
e. Laws on the protection of cultural heritage;
f. Laws on religious freedom or on agreements with religious communities;
g. Laws on education;
h. Laws on the use of symbols (including Community symbols) and on public holidays."
Trust me Genc that I want peace and prosperity in the Balkans as much as you do. I feel badly about the way you guys were treated under Milosevic. I'm educated enough to know that the current and past situations were unworkable. However, I can also see that Ahtisaari's plan as it stands now is a disaster waiting to happen and simply doesn't address the root causes of the problems in the Balkans. We need a regional solution based on what will work, not on who did what to whom. We all have an extremely bad record of human rights abuses.
The simple fact of the matter is if the Albanian population had not engaged in retaliatory attacks and the 2004 riots we would not be having this conversation and you would already have independence.
Well i am sorry Genc i mis read your statement and actually the last one was ok until you started mentioning Bosnia, we are speaking of Kosovo. Repayment will not bring back the dead, or rebuild the lost memories. I would hope everyone would come to a workable agreement. NATO has advise the Kosovo Goverment not to go off on its own and declare independence. I believe for those who want to do this should listen.
"Hey serbs, as for Russia, here is what President Tadic said in an interview for BBC.
BBC-Q: A lot of the Serbian government's hopes lie with Russia. How hopeful are you that Russia will wield its veto in the UN and block Kosovo independence?
Tadic : I don't talk with Russian officials about the veto anymore.But we know very well that Russians are caring about their own interests. The interests of Serbia today are not their priority.
Here is the link direct to that interview
[link]
This is just to show how much Russians care for you serbs, I am really sorry that you are putting all the hopes in an old Russia who really does not care at all for you.
INdependence of Kosova is the only way, there is no other way.
(Afrim Hoxha, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 16:45)"
Of course Russia must take care of her own interests first. That is the basic obligation of any government, including the US. I believe they are in Kosovo primarily because of Bondsteel.
This Tadic interview was in early April, just BEFORE the Russians started to make their veto threat explicit. And what happened once the Russians openly stated in MID-April that Ahtissari's plan will not pass the UN? The West agreed to a UN mission to Kosovo. Then the US announced (via conveniently anonymous diplomats) that they are now willing to make amendments to the Ahtissaari proposal. Seems more to me that it is the West that is retreating.
To Laki of NY, the math is very clear, but your obvious romanticism to the Albanian talking points may make it unclear to you and others. First, it is clear that Russia will veto any imposed solution in the UN. Second, NATO has warned the Albanians against any unilateral declarations because it is agreed by all that the only legitimacy for independence comes through the UN. Third, Rehn has stated that the UN Security Council is the only legitimate process for achieving independence. Given the foregoing, there is no way under international law, the UN Charter or Resolution 1244 that Kosovo can be amputated from Serbia. Yours and similar rhetoric is like leaves in the wind, they just blow around without any substance to them. The world is taking note of the respective arguments and realizing the precedent that amputating Serbia would cause. The Albanians only offer threats of instability, and the world will not accept your blackmail. Checkmate!
so if kosovo remains in serbia,how do you see the future of serbia ,with about half of its citizens clearly opposed to the central gouvernement?(because presheva,sandjak and voivodoina will very often join kosovo in opposition to serbs)
in serbia,we will be the one to decide of who will be your president or your prime,funny no?
and believe me that we will know how to vote so that you have the maximum mess!
so better stop all your false revendication and let kosovo go!
Yes, it is correct statement that "there could be some adjustments" to the Ahtisaari's plan - adjustments that could lead to a bona-fide compromise, making a broad-based autonomy for Kosovo.
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