Drašković: Partition absolutely impossible

oh please, he is dying for a little partition.

Isn't Germany still paying for Hitler, more than 60 years after. Didn't France get Alsac and Lorraine from Germans after the latter lost the war? Doesn't Germany shoulder a disproportionately higher burden of EU and UN contributions due to "Hitler's " crimes.

I've never really met any Serb who has anything favorable to say about Draskovic. In any event, washing one's hands because the present government is not the Milosevic government is the same as Turkey claiming no responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, or Croatia refusing to atone for the atrocities of the NDH. Governments may come and go, yes, and sentiments may certainly change among elected officials, but the victims (Armenians, Serbs, Albanians, etc) will never forget and will continue to push for some form of justice until official recognition and atonement is given.

Germany annexed Alsace-Lorraine after the Franco-Prussian war in 1871. It was returned to France following WWI in 1919. Obviously it was invaded again in 1940, but went back to France at the end of WWII.

"Doesn't Germany shoulder a disproportionately higher burden of EU and UN contributions due to "Hitler's " crimes."

Not sure about that...more likely because it has the 3rd largest economy and doesn't have to spend much on defence like Japan.

No partition? If Serbia wants to end up (again) as a loser in another win-lose situation, then so be it. No partition? Then be ready to lose all of Kosovo. That is what is otherwise going to happen.

It would make more sense if (in a nutshell) Serbia were trying to reach an end outcome where

1. Serbia is guaranteed to keep its actual territory (Sandzak, Presevo, Vojvodina)
2. Serbia acquires the north of Kosovo
3. Kosovo becomes a multi-ethnic entity respecting, protecting and politically empowering its minorities (even more than it currently does)
4. In exchange, Serbia gives some forms of autonomy and cultural protection to its own minorities
5. Also allow and encourage double citizenship (Kos & Serbian) for all refugees, and minorities
6. Encourage the return of all refugees to their places of origin (and return their property)
7. Guarantee the safe passage of all Serbs wishing to visit historic cultural religious monuments

Why could this not be acceptable to the Serbs? Have they become so accustomed to losing? Is losing so much more politically attractive?

I would say to Serbs, wake up and smell the koffee. You lost Kosovo, the question is how do you want to lose it and are there outcomes that are better than losing everything? Nothing implies that you have to lose everything or to accept that all remnants of things Serbian are doomed in Kosovo. I remind you, you are getting a bad deal, so try to change it. But beware: if you continue to insist for everything you will get nothing.

I would say to Albanians, you will have to let some Albanians stay in Serbia--they are gaining a political voice, they are being respected overall, you can have brothers there just like the Serbs in Serbia will, even after partition, continue to have brothers in Kosovo. Doing this will get you independence faster--EU recognition, UN entry, etc. You will also need to let the part of Kosovo that wants to stay in Serbia to follow its own destiny. Why should this not be fair? Also, why is saying that any point stressing that the protection and inclusion of minorities is a painful, difficult concession? It should not--you guys know what it meant being an oppressed minority (within Yugo or Serbia), at times without a real political voice--why would repeating your history for others be legitimate? Don t be ready to repeat the mistakes of former dictatorships or extreme nationalists. You have a space to change this, so do not negotiate what is non-negotiable. Learn how to make real concessions, and to respect others as you build your country.

And, please, I ask that nobody give me any history bs explanations--i ve heard the whining over and over--and, you know what, people don t buy it anymore. This goes to both Serbs and Albanians.

Ari - How is germany still paying for Hitler 60 years on? it has all it's lands back!!

Mike - I don't see urkey offering to give up any of it's land as "blood money" for it's atrocities against the Armenians, nor Croatia for it's brutal murder of 1/3 of the pre war Serbian population of Croatia. Maybe we should table a resolution at the UN demanding that the USA be given back to the remaining native red indians who as a nation were practically wiped out!!

Jorge GArcia - you're missing the point. Serbia already has a guarantee as to it's territorial integrity - International Law. If you want to circumvent International Law then my suggestion is for Republika Srpska to declare Independence as it as 35% of the population of Bosnia - far more than the 20% the Albanians represent of Serbia.

Jorge,
You can not have it both ways. If Kosovo is to be granted independence and the northern part remains in Serb hands, then the same principle must apply to Bosnia and Republika Srpska. Republika Srpska overwhelmintly wants nothing to do with the rest of Bosnia, so should they not get independence also? All this talk of Kosovo being a 'special case' and not setting a precedent for all separatist movemets around the world is total bull. It is laughable. If you are going to break international law and the UN charter in one place, then it will be broken everywhere. The Albanians have been destroying Serbian churches all over Kosovo for one reason only, they are proof that Kosovo is Serbian and has been that way for centuries. It's easy to destroy something that is not yours. If Kosovo really was theirs, they would cherish it and not treat it like a sewer, which is what they are doing.
You seem to think that Serbia has already lost Kosovo and should just capitulate and let the Americans and Brits rape them willingly. Think again. Russia WILL use their VETO. Serbia will NEVER accept losing the cradle of their civilization. Serbia WILL impose a total economic blockade on Kosovo if it declares independence, and make their lives miserable. Trust me, the fight has only just begun, and Serbia will win.

I actually agree with Jorge. What he suggested should be the basis for a compromise and the next stage of negotiation.

In addition, I would suggest trading Presevo et all for some sort of concession on our historical sites that represent the very foundation of our civilization and identy.

However, I think the Serbian government's current stand is unfortunately probably the best way politically to proceed at this time. Once Ahtisaari's proposal fails in the UNSC, then we will be able to have a real discussion on the merits of partition in a fair and balanced manner.

Drašković told journalists in Paris Kosovo’s history did not begin with Slobodan Milošević’s regime and that the present-day democratic Serbia should not be made to pay for Milošević’s mistakes.
Just a "small" correction instead of small it is BIG CRIMES. No one cares what Serbia thinks about Kosova. Kosova is and will be independent Drashkovic you like or dislike it. We can gamble if we like....

PB, you must have been really bad in history. If you take a look at the map of pre-war Germany, you'll see that it lost 1/3 of its territories after WWII, which was annexed to Poland and URSS (today's Russia, the enclave of Koengisberg/Kaliningrad, from wich the German civilians were cleansed out by the Red Army. Today it would have been classified as a crime against humanity, much worse than the Oluja operation. You better listen again to the speech of Germany's President on 9 May 2005: "In WWII Germany lost, for its own fault, 1/3 of its territory. But Germany is today, for the first time in its history, circled by friends and allies". That should be Serbia's future too. Well, it went worse for Hungary, which lost 70% of its territory of multiethnical kingdom after WWI. You see, life is not so bad, after all.

(genc, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 01:54)

There is no comparision between Nazi Germany and the Civil war in the former Yugoslavia. Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, et al wanted to leave the Yugoslav federation-Serb minorities within those Republics wanted to remain within the federation.

Your interpetation of history is not backed up by the facts.

@Jorge:

why using foreign nick-names when it is clear to everyone that only Albanians write in that way?

at least be honest, and don´t try to dupe us, we are not buying it.

and besides, doesn´t really look like you´re right. don´t you read (non-albanian)news?

oh please, he is dying for a little partition.

Isn't Germany still paying for Hitler, more than 60 years after. Didn't France get Alsac and Lorraine from Germans after the latter lost the war? Doesn't Germany shoulder a disproportionately higher burden of EU and UN contributions due to "Hitler's " crimes.

I've never really met any Serb who has anything favorable to say about Draskovic. In any event, washing one's hands because the present government is not the Milosevic government is the same as Turkey claiming no responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, or Croatia refusing to atone for the atrocities of the NDH. Governments may come and go, yes, and sentiments may certainly change among elected officials, but the victims (Armenians, Serbs, Albanians, etc) will never forget and will continue to push for some form of justice until official recognition and atonement is given.

Germany annexed Alsace-Lorraine after the Franco-Prussian war in 1871. It was returned to France following WWI in 1919. Obviously it was invaded again in 1940, but went back to France at the end of WWII.

"Doesn't Germany shoulder a disproportionately higher burden of EU and UN contributions due to "Hitler's " crimes."

Not sure about that...more likely because it has the 3rd largest economy and doesn't have to spend much on defence like Japan.

No partition? If Serbia wants to end up (again) as a loser in another win-lose situation, then so be it. No partition? Then be ready to lose all of Kosovo. That is what is otherwise going to happen.

It would make more sense if (in a nutshell) Serbia were trying to reach an end outcome where

1. Serbia is guaranteed to keep its actual territory (Sandzak, Presevo, Vojvodina)
2. Serbia acquires the north of Kosovo
3. Kosovo becomes a multi-ethnic entity respecting, protecting and politically empowering its minorities (even more than it currently does)
4. In exchange, Serbia gives some forms of autonomy and cultural protection to its own minorities
5. Also allow and encourage double citizenship (Kos & Serbian) for all refugees, and minorities
6. Encourage the return of all refugees to their places of origin (and return their property)
7. Guarantee the safe passage of all Serbs wishing to visit historic cultural religious monuments

Why could this not be acceptable to the Serbs? Have they become so accustomed to losing? Is losing so much more politically attractive?

I would say to Serbs, wake up and smell the koffee. You lost Kosovo, the question is how do you want to lose it and are there outcomes that are better than losing everything? Nothing implies that you have to lose everything or to accept that all remnants of things Serbian are doomed in Kosovo. I remind you, you are getting a bad deal, so try to change it. But beware: if you continue to insist for everything you will get nothing.

I would say to Albanians, you will have to let some Albanians stay in Serbia--they are gaining a political voice, they are being respected overall, you can have brothers there just like the Serbs in Serbia will, even after partition, continue to have brothers in Kosovo. Doing this will get you independence faster--EU recognition, UN entry, etc. You will also need to let the part of Kosovo that wants to stay in Serbia to follow its own destiny. Why should this not be fair? Also, why is saying that any point stressing that the protection and inclusion of minorities is a painful, difficult concession? It should not--you guys know what it meant being an oppressed minority (within Yugo or Serbia), at times without a real political voice--why would repeating your history for others be legitimate? Don t be ready to repeat the mistakes of former dictatorships or extreme nationalists. You have a space to change this, so do not negotiate what is non-negotiable. Learn how to make real concessions, and to respect others as you build your country.

And, please, I ask that nobody give me any history bs explanations--i ve heard the whining over and over--and, you know what, people don t buy it anymore. This goes to both Serbs and Albanians.

Ari - How is germany still paying for Hitler 60 years on? it has all it's lands back!!

Mike - I don't see urkey offering to give up any of it's land as "blood money" for it's atrocities against the Armenians, nor Croatia for it's brutal murder of 1/3 of the pre war Serbian population of Croatia. Maybe we should table a resolution at the UN demanding that the USA be given back to the remaining native red indians who as a nation were practically wiped out!!

Jorge GArcia - you're missing the point. Serbia already has a guarantee as to it's territorial integrity - International Law. If you want to circumvent International Law then my suggestion is for Republika Srpska to declare Independence as it as 35% of the population of Bosnia - far more than the 20% the Albanians represent of Serbia.

Jorge,
You can not have it both ways. If Kosovo is to be granted independence and the northern part remains in Serb hands, then the same principle must apply to Bosnia and Republika Srpska. Republika Srpska overwhelmintly wants nothing to do with the rest of Bosnia, so should they not get independence also? All this talk of Kosovo being a 'special case' and not setting a precedent for all separatist movemets around the world is total bull. It is laughable. If you are going to break international law and the UN charter in one place, then it will be broken everywhere. The Albanians have been destroying Serbian churches all over Kosovo for one reason only, they are proof that Kosovo is Serbian and has been that way for centuries. It's easy to destroy something that is not yours. If Kosovo really was theirs, they would cherish it and not treat it like a sewer, which is what they are doing.
You seem to think that Serbia has already lost Kosovo and should just capitulate and let the Americans and Brits rape them willingly. Think again. Russia WILL use their VETO. Serbia will NEVER accept losing the cradle of their civilization. Serbia WILL impose a total economic blockade on Kosovo if it declares independence, and make their lives miserable. Trust me, the fight has only just begun, and Serbia will win.

I actually agree with Jorge. What he suggested should be the basis for a compromise and the next stage of negotiation.

In addition, I would suggest trading Presevo et all for some sort of concession on our historical sites that represent the very foundation of our civilization and identy.

However, I think the Serbian government's current stand is unfortunately probably the best way politically to proceed at this time. Once Ahtisaari's proposal fails in the UNSC, then we will be able to have a real discussion on the merits of partition in a fair and balanced manner.

Drašković told journalists in Paris Kosovo’s history did not begin with Slobodan Milošević’s regime and that the present-day democratic Serbia should not be made to pay for Milošević’s mistakes.
Just a "small" correction instead of small it is BIG CRIMES. No one cares what Serbia thinks about Kosova. Kosova is and will be independent Drashkovic you like or dislike it. We can gamble if we like....

PB, you must have been really bad in history. If you take a look at the map of pre-war Germany, you'll see that it lost 1/3 of its territories after WWII, which was annexed to Poland and URSS (today's Russia, the enclave of Koengisberg/Kaliningrad, from wich the German civilians were cleansed out by the Red Army. Today it would have been classified as a crime against humanity, much worse than the Oluja operation. You better listen again to the speech of Germany's President on 9 May 2005: "In WWII Germany lost, for its own fault, 1/3 of its territory. But Germany is today, for the first time in its history, circled by friends and allies". That should be Serbia's future too. Well, it went worse for Hungary, which lost 70% of its territory of multiethnical kingdom after WWI. You see, life is not so bad, after all.

(genc, Friday, 27 April, 2007, 01:54)

There is no comparision between Nazi Germany and the Civil war in the former Yugoslavia. Croatia, Slovenia, FYROM, et al wanted to leave the Yugoslav federation-Serb minorities within those Republics wanted to remain within the federation.

Your interpetation of history is not backed up by the facts.

@Jorge:

why using foreign nick-names when it is clear to everyone that only Albanians write in that way?

at least be honest, and don´t try to dupe us, we are not buying it.

and besides, doesn´t really look like you´re right. don´t you read (non-albanian)news?