Contact Group meets in Moscow

"Lavrov said that US envoy Martti Ahtisaari’s plan for the future status of Kosovo failed since it didn’t take into account the interests of both parties"

I can remember how those self-proclaimed analysts boasted about Russia bending down before the "one and only global superpower"

Are they now going to visit the enclaves? Without that, this will not be a fact finding mission.

the UN has been in Kosovo for 8 years! They already know the situation in Kosovo.

They are not going to get any new facts in 8 days, apart from the K serbs making every efort to lie and to try and look as miserbale as possible, and complain about albanians blah blah blah.

This is just an attempt to make Russia feel important. Nothing new will come out of it.

Simple, resolution 1244 means that there has to be a consensus. if there isnt resolution 1244 cant work. i dont see anyone saying that 1244 means that if there is no consensus then serbia wins. in fact, if there is no consensus, unilteral independence will happen and russia doesnt want THAT to be a precedent, thats for sure.

Nikshala, this not just a muse by Russia to delay things it is Russia saying that if 1244 has not been implemented then what guarantees are pieces of paper with a UN stamp on them worth? If NATO has not done what it said it would do in 8 years then what is to suggest that things would turn around once you reward threats of War????

Daniel,
you fail to appreciate that if a new resolution to supercede 1244 is not adopted 1244 stands - Kosovo & Metohija continues to be respected as integral to Serbian. This was agreed by the US & UK when they signed it hence the desperate attempt at shoving through Ahtisaari's failed plan!!!

Any ILLEGAL act of unilateral recognition by the US or any other nation will always be ILLEGAL!!! Serbia will use all its diplomatic might to ensure that i's sovereignity is continued to be respected but however ILLEGAL acts will remain ILLEGAL and can be overcome within international law. Regarding Russia's interest I believe that they indeed are best served by the US setting a precedence - if the US can act ILLEGALLY over a province that has a UN resolution confirming to be integral to Serbia then what do believe will be the case of certain places where many already believe have far more ligitamacy then a "Kosovar" entity that has no historical, economic nor ethnic validity????

Read what the Tirasopol Times believes to be it's trump card if the US dared to go against a UN resolution that stands.
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/749

Daniel & all other anti- International law supporters (anachists if you prefer) - this is all bad news for the region and the world. Is it not better that a real solution that is acceptable for all is discussed fully so that peace and stability can create closure for all concerned and everyone can prosper????

Or would you prefer the carnage that will follow from ILLEGAL acts and anarchy that will be created by such ill-thought precedents???

Beyond that where else will such acts lead - BiH - 3 seperate states, FYR Makedonia - substantial Albanian community, Croatia & Krajina - these are just extra jigsaws in the Yugoslav puzzle that would re-ignite but where else would you want this ILLEGAL act to create havoc across the world????

The time is still not too late for real and actual dialogue to find alternatives to violence and conflict - only by discussing ALL alternatives can a solution that is win-win will be found!!! Only if you have real, open and constructive dialogue can you possibly come up the solution that is acceptable - suerly this is in the best interest of all concerned!!!

No daniel, the English and American threat to recognize a declaration of unilateral independence by the Albanian separatists is pure bluff. That much should be clear to everyone by now. Don't forget that even if USA/England recognize them, the UN legally can't. Then it follows that neither can FIFA, UEFA and a host of other international institutions. It would mean total paralysis, the political and financial costs would be far too great.
All that remains is for them to finally start normal negotiations with Serbia. If the NATO Pact refuses to implement Resolution 1244 then they have to grow up and start negotiating properly. Enough of this Ahtisaari charade and enough threats of violence from certain quarters (Holbrooke, Burns, Polt). Partition plus immediate EU membership should be the minimum that Serbia can accept in any tradeoff.

Princip if you are asking to respect resolution 1244, why you didi not speak up after three years from the date the reolution was put into effect, becase resolution 1244 calls for referendum after three years, which never took place. Anyhow you are beatting a dead horse. Again I am going to tell you: " Mark my word, its over and done with it-serbia will gain its independance from Kosova once and for all".In this meeting Russia will say few words and the rest will tell am as is, just another Russian game tryingto show to serbs that they are trying very hard. No morwe no less.

Ok princip, let me break this down for you, so that once and for all you understand that win-win is a fiction of your imagination. A vague idea that is based on something you either heard or came up with, without considering the situation and the positons of the Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians.

Our most basic principle, the most sacred idea of our people is "Independence from Serbia"

While your most basic principle is "Autonomy Within the Borders of Serbia"

These are not only the principles of the politicians who the do the actual negociating but the principles of our two peoples.

There isnt a single kosovar albanian who is willing to consider anything less than full independence.

While,

Although a few (very very few) in Serbia have no problem letting Kosovo become indendent a vast majority want it to remain in Serbia.

We wont back down from our most basic principle, not in a thousand years.

Knowing the Serbs, you wont back down from your principle, unless that is if you are forced to.

The only way to solve this conflict is if a solution is imposed on the parties.

Yes the Russians will continue to try to appear important since they have a terrible complex of having lost their superpover status. It will take them a long time to get used to their diminished role. The French are a good example. Even recently many of them thought that they are still as important than under Napoleon.
It looks to me that the Russians will be stupid enough to use their veto. In that case there will be an unilateral declaration of independence and the Serbs of Kosovo will be the big losers.

Ahmet,

I ask assistance since reading through the UN Resoultion 1244 once again, I cannot understand where you read anything that specifically suggests that there was to be a Referendum after 3 years?!?!?!

I provide a link to the UN Document and ask that you please provide the exact paragragh to which you suggest in the UN resolution!!! Please clarify this or are we just to take your word that Koffi gave you his personal assurance but forgot to ensure it was documented ?

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement

I am sure you will enjoy reading the following statement from it though;

"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States
the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and
meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,"

Or, how about it's high time that the following section was fully implemented;

"4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;"

In annex 2 it provides some detail;
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel
will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:
- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international
security presence;
- Marking/clearing minefields;
- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

While we are at it I'll remind you that this is open ended and not time specific;

"19. Decides that the international civil and security presences are
established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless
the Security Council decides otherwise;"

Ahmet and other anti-International law supporters,

Is it not time that all concerned had real and substantive talks to resolve this so that the best mutual solution i.e. win-win does come about??? This means without imposition by any party - that is the true and only objective that should be set for real negotiations!!!

Negotiations - "a process whereby 2 or more parties voluntarily discuss their differences and attempt to reach a JOINT decision on their common concerns"

Imposed solutions based on power cannot last and they tend to corrupt the whole society. Ask yourself if real talks on finding a just and mutual solution is not given the chance it and all the people deserve then at what cost to the future????

It is clear as as being able to see the Sun and the Moon in a clear sky that this plan of Ahtisaari is contrieved to fail just as Rambouilet was!

Surely all the peoples deserve a better future that only a mutual solution can bring - win-win! Do you not agree that this is the best solution for all concerned???

Give peace a chance through dialogue to find a mutual solution - anything else will just be ILLEGAL and create instability for years to come! I don't believe that the people deserve this and it is a shame that those who support such an imposed scenario with their comments can't apperciate the dire need to resolve this mutually and constructively for a better future for all.

There is still time for real talks and mutual agreement - surely you can recognise the sensibility of ensuring that it comes about!

"good morning" you are funny. You start to dictate conditions to the EU like immediate EU membership. You don't seem to be from this planete. Try to wake up!

Joe when I read your comments, I ask myself and wonder how old you are. You sure don't sound like an adult to me.

Nikshala,
please read my earlier comment to Ahmet. I think it suggests that the best solution is very clear and must be given a chance - all peoples deserve that. Otherwise, the cost to all will be very great and are not deserved. I do not believe that positions are so ingrained to not allow true talks to come about - learn to think out of the box of prejudice and preconceptions!!!.

The imposition of a pre-determined and one sided solution can never be stable and time will not be used to heal, build trust, cooperation and all the economic benefits that would be offered by a mutual solution but instead to gather strength for future conflict.

Joe,
"In that case there will be an unilateral declaration of independence and the Serbs of Kosovo will be the big losers."
- yes your right about losing but ALL will lose and that is something that no one deserves. This is precisly why real and substantive talks on finding a mutual solution must be given the chance. All the peoples deserve that and no one needs to loses out - instead all can live peacefully and prosper if the right alternative to conflict is found.

Kostunica and Tadic have been generally low key so far because they knew that Ahtisaari's plan was an annexation plan. There was nothing to negotiate. They shrewdly called the NATO Pact's bluff. Serbia's only theoretical Achilles heel is if Russia abstains in a UN Security Council vote. In light of recent Russian statements (by Putin himself) that's an impossibility. This is why the English and Americans don't have the nerve to present the plan to the Security Council. That's why I use the term "theoretical Achilles heel". To quote Mr. Lavrov, "Veto what ?"
The English/Americans are refusing to accept that the plan is a failure, that Ahtisaari is a failure and that proper negotiations need to start as soon as possible and as if to emphasize their desperation, they are openly threating violence unless Russia abstains and signs off on the annexation of 15% of Serbia. Poster "Joe", for example, echoes this veiled threat of violence. All this demonstrates how groundless the Albanian separatists "claim" really is, not to mention illegal.

Ahmet believes like the albanians in a lot of ficticious things - well done Princip for pointing out the obvious. Ahmet you need to be more careful in what you present as fact.

As a Kosovar, I would be willing to live with Kosova remaining inside of "Serbia's" borders. But only if:
1.) Nato STAYS
2.) Kosova's people man the boarders
3.) Kosova's people GOVERN themselves

If Serbs just want to look at a map and see Kosova inside the "boundaries" of Serbia then so be it. If it will mean peace for Albanians & Serbs, then I am willing to make that sacrifice.

We are both heading towards the EU anyhow and once inside the EU, Kosova will end up where it belongs.

Its time we all just learn to live with each other for the sake of piece and lead normal lives again.

Princip, sorry I meant Rombuale agreemant, which Resolution 1244 is based on. Anyhow, to be honest I never read your comments, because once I start reading one paragraph and than I see {link}, immediately I move down to the bottom and always I am right because I see your name. I know you make your weekly paychek from this, but you are to boring. No offense.Again , I will tell you that nothing will change and I don't care how many times Contact Group will meeet, serbia will gain its independance from Kosova.

Guys Guys,

Check this, its apsolutely hilarious about 2 serb soldiers and an albanian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNWr9aQReok&mode=related&search=

International law???

International law is also about the right to self-determination not just about state sovereignty (although Serbia can’t even claim that in her advantage in Kosovo’s case either).

According to the 1974 SFRY constitution, Kosovo was an equal subject of the federation and equally in its right to secede just like the other Yugoslav republics did.

In 1989 Milosevic illegally changed the constitution and revoked Kosovo’s powers to govern itself.

Kosovo was illegally annexed by Serbia in 1912 and contrary to Serbs’ claims, the demographic structure has always favoured the Albanians. By recognising the right of the Kosovars’ to independence, the international community is merely righting a wrong.

Serbs incorrectly treat the Albanian issue in Kosovo as one of mass migration after WW II!!! They claim to have been some kind-hearted host to Albanians who had escaped communist Albania!!! Utter rubbish!!!

Mutual solution?

A recent UNDP survey found that 65% of Kosovo’s young people wouldn’t (like to) have a Serb friends and 54% wouldn’t have Serb neighbours!!!
A SAD fact but can you blame them?!

Growing up in Kosovo, I have enjoyed having Serb friends and neighbours and would like to have them back again. Very much so!

However, my brother – who’s 21 – has never had Serb friends. He’s from the segregated generation - from the time when the Serbian regime denied us any sort of participation in education, health, employment, sports, arts, leisure...
He spent eight years of his primary school sharing a chair (not a desk!!!) in the unheated and shabby part of the school the Serbs didn’t want.
He started breathing tear gas when he was just four.
He’d been intimidated by our gun slinging Serb neighbours in our apartment block when they routinely fired their guns in the air, every evening at supper time. He’d been intimidated by their camouflage-military-uniform-wearing children who bullied him just because they could.
He’d become accustomed to the horrible and terrifying sound of a military plains flying low and breaking through the sound barrier several times a day.

Negotiate with him and the rest of the 50% (+) of Kosovars who are under 25 and find a mutual solution!

And finally, before you say we’re being rewarded for using violence to achieve our political goals:

We’re being granted what’s rightfully ours. Something we fought for peacefully and democratically at first.
We were ignored for years before the leaders of our peaceful resistance lost credibility for not delivering. During that time we were constantly beaten by the Serbian police every day in the street just because we had the ‘wrong’ names on our ID cards, for walking in groups of more than three, wearing school uniforms, protesting peacefully, sitting in cafes/bars... for existing!!!
Not once did the regime sit and talk to our representatives. No, they did once (I think in 1997) and they couldn’t even bring themselves to allow the opening of the schools and universities.

The Serbs want Kosovo but not its inhabitants. They demonstrated that when they adopted their new and ‘European’ constitution, which by the way was adopted in an illegal, undemocratic and unconstitutional manner!!!
Proof?
The threshold needed for the constitution to be adopted was 50% + 1 or 3.5 million voters voting ’yes’. Kosovo was used to ‘sell’ the constitution to the Serbs by being mentioned in its preamble as an integral part of Serbia. However, the irony of it is that the authorities did not take into account the 1 million + (potential) votes of the Kosovars who surely according to the constitution should be an integral part of Serbia in package with the territory. That would have increased the threshold to over 4.5 million necessary votes and with all the Kosovars ignoring the referendum, it would (read has) failed miserably. Many within Serbia argue that it has failed even without the Kosovars’ votes but for many irregularities.

I know you believe it’s the other way around but in reality, in terms of rule of law, democracy, reforms, tackling corruption and organised crime, human rights provisions and the overall functioning of the state Kosovo is miles ahead of Serbia. You’re holding us back – that’s why we want out! :)

Hope you do well (better) without us, neighbours.

Blerimi

Adem, as long as Kosovo stays within Serbia in theoretical terms, Belgrade has already made it clear that it would be more than willing to allow the people of the province to have the right to full and unfettered self-rule. Indeed, the Serbian Government has already said that it would be willing to accept things that no state has ever accepted before. That would include having your own links with some international institutions. I am certain that it would also be happy to see a continued NATO presence in the province, not just for your security, but also for the security of the province's Serbian community. In fact, Kosovo could achieve a degree of autonomy seen nowhere else in the world.

And I agree with your point about the EU. Under this model, both Serbia and Kosovo would be able to move quickly towards EU accession making all this increasingly irrelevant anyway. Really, I do not understand why people in Kosovo are so adamant that they must have independence at all costs, even if it means attempting a unilateral declaration of independence that could jeopardise everything!

Princip UK said:
"Serbia will use all its diplomatic might to ensure that i's sovereignity is continued to be respected "

LOL, yeah ok Princip. You can count on Serbia's "might", while the rest of us celebrate independence this summer. I will send you a postcard from Prishtina.

Adem,

I congratulate you for the moderate view and it is hopefull that many more are willing to see that there are alternatives which can be found to ensure peace and stability and that trust & respect is created between all peoples. You are reught a prosperous future is for all in the EU so there is not really any need for new norders and new divisions.

Adem,

All your requests sound incredibly utterly completely 100% reasonable to me. In fact, if I were in charge, I would give you more. Like add Presevo Valley to Kosovo. I would also ensure the tax revenue from the Trepca mines went entirely to Kosovo infastructure. I agree when we all join the EU it will mostly be a moot point anyway.

However, I'm not sure if the rest of the Albanians would settle for that. Personally, I support partition as one possible option to discuss. I think the international community needs to back down on some of their conditions on the talks, so all possibilities can be discussed.

Anyways, I would very much like to speak with you or any other Kosovar Albanian who is interested in discussing ideas and possibilities.

To me its vitally important to take into consideration of what the Albanian needs are in all of this.

My email is lazslow@hotmail.com and I would like to hear from anyone interested in coming up with ideas and solutions that might be acceptable to BOTH sides.

I just want to point out the irony of the Serbian insistence on respect for "international law". I mean, come on, where was the respect for international law throughout the 1990s. Maybe a healthy respect for international human rights law would have prevented all of this from happening. Don't you think its a little late to scream about how it pains you to see the "law" broken?

Ahmet,

could you please specify your correction

"Princip, sorry I meant Rombuale agreemant, which Resolution 1244 is based on."

I am of the impression that you were only too quick to suggest fiction as fact and now you suggest that you meant Ramboullet in the first place to counter my argument to Daniel regarding resolution 1244 - but I am afriad that does not stand nor comprehend since we were discussing 1244 and not Rambouilet. So what is your argument about since I am all the less clear what it was you were trying to put across and what's more is I think you are even less certain yourself!

Look 1244 is in quite plain English for all to see and understand and in fact holds very little for interpretation so I really cannot fathom the point you have put across and really do not hold to this now even more fictitous argument that 1244 is a product of Rambouilet!!!

Beyond that I think it is high time that the fiction is put aside and the reality and truth comes about it is only in this way that all will be able to progress

As such real talks and negotiations offer the best opportunity for peace and stability - Adem for one is brave enough to put his head up over the parapet and say lets move on together - he puts forth in my mind reasonable suggestions.

Condition 1 NATO remain.
I understand the reasonings for this and appreciate that he is right ethnic-Albanians would need to feel some one is close by as a guarantor of human rights and protection. I know that you do not nor cannot feel protecetd by Serbian institutions - that would take time and requires an opportunityto show you that Serbia is not the same as the 90's.

Condition 2 Border control. Regarding borders that is right to some point too - the people local to the border are predominantly ethnic-Albaninas and as such should make up a good representation of the border guard. However, he must understand that the Serbian govt needs to ensure that it's border is tight just like any other state - the trust comes the other way given that the border has been porous. So in compromise maybe their can be some form of EU border police who could oversee and work as a bridge between the predominant ethnic-Albanian guard and Serbian institutions to collaborate. Again building trust by working and learning to understand each others fears and aspirations.
Point 3 Self governing.
This goes without saying - local people want local control of their budgets and in so many ways are a better guarantor of ensuring money is spent efficiently and on what matters in providing local economic development.

Adem I congratulate you on showing that there is hope and truly believe that this is felt by the vast majority of ethnic-Albanians.

Ahmet,

Why do you think that Serbs should be paid for their patriotism? We Serbs have proven many times in our history that patriotism is sacred for us. Maybe its hard for you to understand, but at least give it a try.

You hear that Ahtisaari! Justice always wins, and dont you forget it. Most importantly, Serbia and her great people will defend this. And proudly and happily, we are reminded of why Russia is decorated by Serbs and why the Russian people are our allies in this time of need so far.

Let us work together-our determination and unity is unquestionable! Any dastard act to dismember Serbia will not stand, and its acceptance would not exist!

Indeed, a funny video. Who produced it - the Albanian Shakespeare company?

To all the Albanians out there who are contemplating Kosovo Independence, start singing this song by the Everly Brothers - All I have to do is dream.

To Princip and all other who think that there is a "solution" that will be accepted by both sides. Do you really believe that there is such a solution? I mean think about it? Do you think Albanians would be able to live with their murders? Furthermore, Do you think that those Serbs which you suggest live "in enclaves" would prefere to be under Albanian power?
Thus, a solution acceptable to both sides is impossible.

“Knowing the Serbs, you wont back down from your principle, unless that is if you are forced to.

The only way to solve this conflict is if a solution is imposed on the parties.
(Nick, Friday, 20 April, 2007, 14:27)”

A whole ton of Serbs support partition Nick. It also has support among moderate members of the Albanian population as well. In addition, Serbs just like Albanians, have never been successfully forced to back down on a principle, we are both far too stubborn for that sort of thing, even if it takes centuries.

Why aren’t we discussing this option in a reasonable manner.

Nick, if Ahtisaari’s proposal fails in the UNSC, would you be willing to consider partition at that point? If so, what is the price for it? Presevo?

Partition has elements of real compromise. It isn’t full independence for all of Kosovo, but it isn’t rule by Belgrade either. Isn’t it worth discussing the option if Presevo is included in the plan?

I think we should study Mussolini’s agreement with the Vatican and sign a similar agreement between our church in Kosovo and what will be the independent government of Kosovo. That agreement sets precedent for this decision being just between us, and we wouldn’t need international recognition to do that.

Hell, anything we both agreed to and voted on together would ultimately be recognized by the International community. No outsider really understands the Balkans or our mentalities. This is something we need to do together, ourselves. I know you guys are still pissed off, but think of the future of our children. Do we really want them to go through what our generation suffered? Or our parent’s generation, or their parent’s generation, etc.?

"Lavrov said that US envoy Martti Ahtisaari’s plan for the future status of Kosovo failed since it didn’t take into account the interests of both parties"

I can remember how those self-proclaimed analysts boasted about Russia bending down before the "one and only global superpower"

Are they now going to visit the enclaves? Without that, this will not be a fact finding mission.

the UN has been in Kosovo for 8 years! They already know the situation in Kosovo.

They are not going to get any new facts in 8 days, apart from the K serbs making every efort to lie and to try and look as miserbale as possible, and complain about albanians blah blah blah.

This is just an attempt to make Russia feel important. Nothing new will come out of it.

Simple, resolution 1244 means that there has to be a consensus. if there isnt resolution 1244 cant work. i dont see anyone saying that 1244 means that if there is no consensus then serbia wins. in fact, if there is no consensus, unilteral independence will happen and russia doesnt want THAT to be a precedent, thats for sure.

Nikshala, this not just a muse by Russia to delay things it is Russia saying that if 1244 has not been implemented then what guarantees are pieces of paper with a UN stamp on them worth? If NATO has not done what it said it would do in 8 years then what is to suggest that things would turn around once you reward threats of War????

Daniel,
you fail to appreciate that if a new resolution to supercede 1244 is not adopted 1244 stands - Kosovo & Metohija continues to be respected as integral to Serbian. This was agreed by the US & UK when they signed it hence the desperate attempt at shoving through Ahtisaari's failed plan!!!

Any ILLEGAL act of unilateral recognition by the US or any other nation will always be ILLEGAL!!! Serbia will use all its diplomatic might to ensure that i's sovereignity is continued to be respected but however ILLEGAL acts will remain ILLEGAL and can be overcome within international law. Regarding Russia's interest I believe that they indeed are best served by the US setting a precedence - if the US can act ILLEGALLY over a province that has a UN resolution confirming to be integral to Serbia then what do believe will be the case of certain places where many already believe have far more ligitamacy then a "Kosovar" entity that has no historical, economic nor ethnic validity????

Read what the Tirasopol Times believes to be it's trump card if the US dared to go against a UN resolution that stands.
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/749

Daniel & all other anti- International law supporters (anachists if you prefer) - this is all bad news for the region and the world. Is it not better that a real solution that is acceptable for all is discussed fully so that peace and stability can create closure for all concerned and everyone can prosper????

Or would you prefer the carnage that will follow from ILLEGAL acts and anarchy that will be created by such ill-thought precedents???

Beyond that where else will such acts lead - BiH - 3 seperate states, FYR Makedonia - substantial Albanian community, Croatia & Krajina - these are just extra jigsaws in the Yugoslav puzzle that would re-ignite but where else would you want this ILLEGAL act to create havoc across the world????

The time is still not too late for real and actual dialogue to find alternatives to violence and conflict - only by discussing ALL alternatives can a solution that is win-win will be found!!! Only if you have real, open and constructive dialogue can you possibly come up the solution that is acceptable - suerly this is in the best interest of all concerned!!!

No daniel, the English and American threat to recognize a declaration of unilateral independence by the Albanian separatists is pure bluff. That much should be clear to everyone by now. Don't forget that even if USA/England recognize them, the UN legally can't. Then it follows that neither can FIFA, UEFA and a host of other international institutions. It would mean total paralysis, the political and financial costs would be far too great.
All that remains is for them to finally start normal negotiations with Serbia. If the NATO Pact refuses to implement Resolution 1244 then they have to grow up and start negotiating properly. Enough of this Ahtisaari charade and enough threats of violence from certain quarters (Holbrooke, Burns, Polt). Partition plus immediate EU membership should be the minimum that Serbia can accept in any tradeoff.

Princip if you are asking to respect resolution 1244, why you didi not speak up after three years from the date the reolution was put into effect, becase resolution 1244 calls for referendum after three years, which never took place. Anyhow you are beatting a dead horse. Again I am going to tell you: " Mark my word, its over and done with it-serbia will gain its independance from Kosova once and for all".In this meeting Russia will say few words and the rest will tell am as is, just another Russian game tryingto show to serbs that they are trying very hard. No morwe no less.

Ok princip, let me break this down for you, so that once and for all you understand that win-win is a fiction of your imagination. A vague idea that is based on something you either heard or came up with, without considering the situation and the positons of the Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians.

Our most basic principle, the most sacred idea of our people is "Independence from Serbia"

While your most basic principle is "Autonomy Within the Borders of Serbia"

These are not only the principles of the politicians who the do the actual negociating but the principles of our two peoples.

There isnt a single kosovar albanian who is willing to consider anything less than full independence.

While,

Although a few (very very few) in Serbia have no problem letting Kosovo become indendent a vast majority want it to remain in Serbia.

We wont back down from our most basic principle, not in a thousand years.

Knowing the Serbs, you wont back down from your principle, unless that is if you are forced to.

The only way to solve this conflict is if a solution is imposed on the parties.

Yes the Russians will continue to try to appear important since they have a terrible complex of having lost their superpover status. It will take them a long time to get used to their diminished role. The French are a good example. Even recently many of them thought that they are still as important than under Napoleon.
It looks to me that the Russians will be stupid enough to use their veto. In that case there will be an unilateral declaration of independence and the Serbs of Kosovo will be the big losers.

Ahmet,

I ask assistance since reading through the UN Resoultion 1244 once again, I cannot understand where you read anything that specifically suggests that there was to be a Referendum after 3 years?!?!?!

I provide a link to the UN Document and ask that you please provide the exact paragragh to which you suggest in the UN resolution!!! Please clarify this or are we just to take your word that Koffi gave you his personal assurance but forgot to ensure it was documented ?

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement

I am sure you will enjoy reading the following statement from it though;

"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States
the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and
meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,"

Or, how about it's high time that the following section was fully implemented;

"4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;"

In annex 2 it provides some detail;
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel
will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:
- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international
security presence;
- Marking/clearing minefields;
- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

While we are at it I'll remind you that this is open ended and not time specific;

"19. Decides that the international civil and security presences are
established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless
the Security Council decides otherwise;"

Ahmet and other anti-International law supporters,

Is it not time that all concerned had real and substantive talks to resolve this so that the best mutual solution i.e. win-win does come about??? This means without imposition by any party - that is the true and only objective that should be set for real negotiations!!!

Negotiations - "a process whereby 2 or more parties voluntarily discuss their differences and attempt to reach a JOINT decision on their common concerns"

Imposed solutions based on power cannot last and they tend to corrupt the whole society. Ask yourself if real talks on finding a just and mutual solution is not given the chance it and all the people deserve then at what cost to the future????

It is clear as as being able to see the Sun and the Moon in a clear sky that this plan of Ahtisaari is contrieved to fail just as Rambouilet was!

Surely all the peoples deserve a better future that only a mutual solution can bring - win-win! Do you not agree that this is the best solution for all concerned???

Give peace a chance through dialogue to find a mutual solution - anything else will just be ILLEGAL and create instability for years to come! I don't believe that the people deserve this and it is a shame that those who support such an imposed scenario with their comments can't apperciate the dire need to resolve this mutually and constructively for a better future for all.

There is still time for real talks and mutual agreement - surely you can recognise the sensibility of ensuring that it comes about!

"good morning" you are funny. You start to dictate conditions to the EU like immediate EU membership. You don't seem to be from this planete. Try to wake up!

Joe when I read your comments, I ask myself and wonder how old you are. You sure don't sound like an adult to me.

Nikshala,
please read my earlier comment to Ahmet. I think it suggests that the best solution is very clear and must be given a chance - all peoples deserve that. Otherwise, the cost to all will be very great and are not deserved. I do not believe that positions are so ingrained to not allow true talks to come about - learn to think out of the box of prejudice and preconceptions!!!.

The imposition of a pre-determined and one sided solution can never be stable and time will not be used to heal, build trust, cooperation and all the economic benefits that would be offered by a mutual solution but instead to gather strength for future conflict.

Joe,
"In that case there will be an unilateral declaration of independence and the Serbs of Kosovo will be the big losers."
- yes your right about losing but ALL will lose and that is something that no one deserves. This is precisly why real and substantive talks on finding a mutual solution must be given the chance. All the peoples deserve that and no one needs to loses out - instead all can live peacefully and prosper if the right alternative to conflict is found.

Kostunica and Tadic have been generally low key so far because they knew that Ahtisaari's plan was an annexation plan. There was nothing to negotiate. They shrewdly called the NATO Pact's bluff. Serbia's only theoretical Achilles heel is if Russia abstains in a UN Security Council vote. In light of recent Russian statements (by Putin himself) that's an impossibility. This is why the English and Americans don't have the nerve to present the plan to the Security Council. That's why I use the term "theoretical Achilles heel". To quote Mr. Lavrov, "Veto what ?"
The English/Americans are refusing to accept that the plan is a failure, that Ahtisaari is a failure and that proper negotiations need to start as soon as possible and as if to emphasize their desperation, they are openly threating violence unless Russia abstains and signs off on the annexation of 15% of Serbia. Poster "Joe", for example, echoes this veiled threat of violence. All this demonstrates how groundless the Albanian separatists "claim" really is, not to mention illegal.

Ahmet believes like the albanians in a lot of ficticious things - well done Princip for pointing out the obvious. Ahmet you need to be more careful in what you present as fact.

As a Kosovar, I would be willing to live with Kosova remaining inside of "Serbia's" borders. But only if:
1.) Nato STAYS
2.) Kosova's people man the boarders
3.) Kosova's people GOVERN themselves

If Serbs just want to look at a map and see Kosova inside the "boundaries" of Serbia then so be it. If it will mean peace for Albanians & Serbs, then I am willing to make that sacrifice.

We are both heading towards the EU anyhow and once inside the EU, Kosova will end up where it belongs.

Its time we all just learn to live with each other for the sake of piece and lead normal lives again.

Princip, sorry I meant Rombuale agreemant, which Resolution 1244 is based on. Anyhow, to be honest I never read your comments, because once I start reading one paragraph and than I see {link}, immediately I move down to the bottom and always I am right because I see your name. I know you make your weekly paychek from this, but you are to boring. No offense.Again , I will tell you that nothing will change and I don't care how many times Contact Group will meeet, serbia will gain its independance from Kosova.

Guys Guys,

Check this, its apsolutely hilarious about 2 serb soldiers and an albanian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNWr9aQReok&mode=related&search=

International law???

International law is also about the right to self-determination not just about state sovereignty (although Serbia can’t even claim that in her advantage in Kosovo’s case either).

According to the 1974 SFRY constitution, Kosovo was an equal subject of the federation and equally in its right to secede just like the other Yugoslav republics did.

In 1989 Milosevic illegally changed the constitution and revoked Kosovo’s powers to govern itself.

Kosovo was illegally annexed by Serbia in 1912 and contrary to Serbs’ claims, the demographic structure has always favoured the Albanians. By recognising the right of the Kosovars’ to independence, the international community is merely righting a wrong.

Serbs incorrectly treat the Albanian issue in Kosovo as one of mass migration after WW II!!! They claim to have been some kind-hearted host to Albanians who had escaped communist Albania!!! Utter rubbish!!!

Mutual solution?

A recent UNDP survey found that 65% of Kosovo’s young people wouldn’t (like to) have a Serb friends and 54% wouldn’t have Serb neighbours!!!
A SAD fact but can you blame them?!

Growing up in Kosovo, I have enjoyed having Serb friends and neighbours and would like to have them back again. Very much so!

However, my brother – who’s 21 – has never had Serb friends. He’s from the segregated generation - from the time when the Serbian regime denied us any sort of participation in education, health, employment, sports, arts, leisure...
He spent eight years of his primary school sharing a chair (not a desk!!!) in the unheated and shabby part of the school the Serbs didn’t want.
He started breathing tear gas when he was just four.
He’d been intimidated by our gun slinging Serb neighbours in our apartment block when they routinely fired their guns in the air, every evening at supper time. He’d been intimidated by their camouflage-military-uniform-wearing children who bullied him just because they could.
He’d become accustomed to the horrible and terrifying sound of a military plains flying low and breaking through the sound barrier several times a day.

Negotiate with him and the rest of the 50% (+) of Kosovars who are under 25 and find a mutual solution!

And finally, before you say we’re being rewarded for using violence to achieve our political goals:

We’re being granted what’s rightfully ours. Something we fought for peacefully and democratically at first.
We were ignored for years before the leaders of our peaceful resistance lost credibility for not delivering. During that time we were constantly beaten by the Serbian police every day in the street just because we had the ‘wrong’ names on our ID cards, for walking in groups of more than three, wearing school uniforms, protesting peacefully, sitting in cafes/bars... for existing!!!
Not once did the regime sit and talk to our representatives. No, they did once (I think in 1997) and they couldn’t even bring themselves to allow the opening of the schools and universities.

The Serbs want Kosovo but not its inhabitants. They demonstrated that when they adopted their new and ‘European’ constitution, which by the way was adopted in an illegal, undemocratic and unconstitutional manner!!!
Proof?
The threshold needed for the constitution to be adopted was 50% + 1 or 3.5 million voters voting ’yes’. Kosovo was used to ‘sell’ the constitution to the Serbs by being mentioned in its preamble as an integral part of Serbia. However, the irony of it is that the authorities did not take into account the 1 million + (potential) votes of the Kosovars who surely according to the constitution should be an integral part of Serbia in package with the territory. That would have increased the threshold to over 4.5 million necessary votes and with all the Kosovars ignoring the referendum, it would (read has) failed miserably. Many within Serbia argue that it has failed even without the Kosovars’ votes but for many irregularities.

I know you believe it’s the other way around but in reality, in terms of rule of law, democracy, reforms, tackling corruption and organised crime, human rights provisions and the overall functioning of the state Kosovo is miles ahead of Serbia. You’re holding us back – that’s why we want out! :)

Hope you do well (better) without us, neighbours.

Blerimi

Adem, as long as Kosovo stays within Serbia in theoretical terms, Belgrade has already made it clear that it would be more than willing to allow the people of the province to have the right to full and unfettered self-rule. Indeed, the Serbian Government has already said that it would be willing to accept things that no state has ever accepted before. That would include having your own links with some international institutions. I am certain that it would also be happy to see a continued NATO presence in the province, not just for your security, but also for the security of the province's Serbian community. In fact, Kosovo could achieve a degree of autonomy seen nowhere else in the world.

And I agree with your point about the EU. Under this model, both Serbia and Kosovo would be able to move quickly towards EU accession making all this increasingly irrelevant anyway. Really, I do not understand why people in Kosovo are so adamant that they must have independence at all costs, even if it means attempting a unilateral declaration of independence that could jeopardise everything!

Princip UK said:
"Serbia will use all its diplomatic might to ensure that i's sovereignity is continued to be respected "

LOL, yeah ok Princip. You can count on Serbia's "might", while the rest of us celebrate independence this summer. I will send you a postcard from Prishtina.

Adem,

I congratulate you for the moderate view and it is hopefull that many more are willing to see that there are alternatives which can be found to ensure peace and stability and that trust & respect is created between all peoples. You are reught a prosperous future is for all in the EU so there is not really any need for new norders and new divisions.

Adem,

All your requests sound incredibly utterly completely 100% reasonable to me. In fact, if I were in charge, I would give you more. Like add Presevo Valley to Kosovo. I would also ensure the tax revenue from the Trepca mines went entirely to Kosovo infastructure. I agree when we all join the EU it will mostly be a moot point anyway.

However, I'm not sure if the rest of the Albanians would settle for that. Personally, I support partition as one possible option to discuss. I think the international community needs to back down on some of their conditions on the talks, so all possibilities can be discussed.

Anyways, I would very much like to speak with you or any other Kosovar Albanian who is interested in discussing ideas and possibilities.

To me its vitally important to take into consideration of what the Albanian needs are in all of this.

My email is lazslow@hotmail.com and I would like to hear from anyone interested in coming up with ideas and solutions that might be acceptable to BOTH sides.

I just want to point out the irony of the Serbian insistence on respect for "international law". I mean, come on, where was the respect for international law throughout the 1990s. Maybe a healthy respect for international human rights law would have prevented all of this from happening. Don't you think its a little late to scream about how it pains you to see the "law" broken?

Ahmet,

could you please specify your correction

"Princip, sorry I meant Rombuale agreemant, which Resolution 1244 is based on."

I am of the impression that you were only too quick to suggest fiction as fact and now you suggest that you meant Ramboullet in the first place to counter my argument to Daniel regarding resolution 1244 - but I am afriad that does not stand nor comprehend since we were discussing 1244 and not Rambouilet. So what is your argument about since I am all the less clear what it was you were trying to put across and what's more is I think you are even less certain yourself!

Look 1244 is in quite plain English for all to see and understand and in fact holds very little for interpretation so I really cannot fathom the point you have put across and really do not hold to this now even more fictitous argument that 1244 is a product of Rambouilet!!!

Beyond that I think it is high time that the fiction is put aside and the reality and truth comes about it is only in this way that all will be able to progress

As such real talks and negotiations offer the best opportunity for peace and stability - Adem for one is brave enough to put his head up over the parapet and say lets move on together - he puts forth in my mind reasonable suggestions.

Condition 1 NATO remain.
I understand the reasonings for this and appreciate that he is right ethnic-Albanians would need to feel some one is close by as a guarantor of human rights and protection. I know that you do not nor cannot feel protecetd by Serbian institutions - that would take time and requires an opportunityto show you that Serbia is not the same as the 90's.

Condition 2 Border control. Regarding borders that is right to some point too - the people local to the border are predominantly ethnic-Albaninas and as such should make up a good representation of the border guard. However, he must understand that the Serbian govt needs to ensure that it's border is tight just like any other state - the trust comes the other way given that the border has been porous. So in compromise maybe their can be some form of EU border police who could oversee and work as a bridge between the predominant ethnic-Albanian guard and Serbian institutions to collaborate. Again building trust by working and learning to understand each others fears and aspirations.
Point 3 Self governing.
This goes without saying - local people want local control of their budgets and in so many ways are a better guarantor of ensuring money is spent efficiently and on what matters in providing local economic development.

Adem I congratulate you on showing that there is hope and truly believe that this is felt by the vast majority of ethnic-Albanians.

Ahmet,

Why do you think that Serbs should be paid for their patriotism? We Serbs have proven many times in our history that patriotism is sacred for us. Maybe its hard for you to understand, but at least give it a try.

You hear that Ahtisaari! Justice always wins, and dont you forget it. Most importantly, Serbia and her great people will defend this. And proudly and happily, we are reminded of why Russia is decorated by Serbs and why the Russian people are our allies in this time of need so far.

Let us work together-our determination and unity is unquestionable! Any dastard act to dismember Serbia will not stand, and its acceptance would not exist!

Indeed, a funny video. Who produced it - the Albanian Shakespeare company?

To all the Albanians out there who are contemplating Kosovo Independence, start singing this song by the Everly Brothers - All I have to do is dream.

To Princip and all other who think that there is a "solution" that will be accepted by both sides. Do you really believe that there is such a solution? I mean think about it? Do you think Albanians would be able to live with their murders? Furthermore, Do you think that those Serbs which you suggest live "in enclaves" would prefere to be under Albanian power?
Thus, a solution acceptable to both sides is impossible.

“Knowing the Serbs, you wont back down from your principle, unless that is if you are forced to.

The only way to solve this conflict is if a solution is imposed on the parties.
(Nick, Friday, 20 April, 2007, 14:27)”

A whole ton of Serbs support partition Nick. It also has support among moderate members of the Albanian population as well. In addition, Serbs just like Albanians, have never been successfully forced to back down on a principle, we are both far too stubborn for that sort of thing, even if it takes centuries.

Why aren’t we discussing this option in a reasonable manner.

Nick, if Ahtisaari’s proposal fails in the UNSC, would you be willing to consider partition at that point? If so, what is the price for it? Presevo?

Partition has elements of real compromise. It isn’t full independence for all of Kosovo, but it isn’t rule by Belgrade either. Isn’t it worth discussing the option if Presevo is included in the plan?

I think we should study Mussolini’s agreement with the Vatican and sign a similar agreement between our church in Kosovo and what will be the independent government of Kosovo. That agreement sets precedent for this decision being just between us, and we wouldn’t need international recognition to do that.

Hell, anything we both agreed to and voted on together would ultimately be recognized by the International community. No outsider really understands the Balkans or our mentalities. This is something we need to do together, ourselves. I know you guys are still pissed off, but think of the future of our children. Do we really want them to go through what our generation suffered? Or our parent’s generation, or their parent’s generation, etc.?