Austria, Serbia work on Kosovo deal

Compromise is the only way forward and creating poor timescales are not SMART and liekly to mean any objective is unfeasible.

Real Talks and real negotiations will happen anything else will be "futile & counterproductive".

Given Austria's assistance it is obvious that the so called EU unity is far from the truth!

Austria working with Serbia? Serbia already controls the northern slice of Kosovo. she doesn't need the Austrian model on guaranteed rights for the Serbs there.

Interesting development, and if it actually helps Serbia agree to Kosovo's independence, or at the very least allows a greater degree of consensus, I say let's let this work itself out. It seems the P-Albanian community wants something similar to this, so why not grant the same set of privileges to northern Kosovo? My only concern is that if northern Kosovo will be given this special status, 2/3 of the Serbian minority in Kovoso live south of the Ibar. What will be their condition, and will this coax them to relocate north of the Ibar?

Thank you Austria. At least there is one EU stae which is trying to look at the problem from more than one angle.

My only critisism is that if Austria believes a Alto Adige solution is workable for serbs in a Republic of kosova why is it not a workable solution for the whole of Kosovo within Serbia?

Two things I have to say to you my dear Serbian counterparts.

Kosova's Independence is neither IMMANENT nor INEVITABLE

Austria has credibility in the region as an historic player, and a current investor that has put faith in the people it meant to rule centuries ago.

How about giving "Alto Adige status" to the serbian cities (Presev, Medvedje and Bujanovac) dominated by Albanians. Would that be something Serbs would accpet!

Arben

M,

I confer Kosova's Independence is neither Imminent nor Inevitable

I think we might find that through real dialogue and understanding that all the poeples of Serbia can find a solution that they can all live with.

"Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict -- alternatives to passive or aggressive responses, alternatives to violence." Dorothy Thomson.

It's time that all alternatives were indeed looked into so that a sustainable solution maybe found!

Jack

You have a very good question there. "Why the Alto Adige solution is not workable for the whole of Kosovo within Serbia?"
The answer is very, very simple. The Italians have a democratic mentality and tolerance toward non-Italians. They have what the French call the europeen "esprit" or spirit "Live and let others live". The Serbs on the other side? The whole world knows what they did in Kosovo. Also giving autonomy? They would revoke it any time just like they did it before. In short NOBODY trust them for good reason! I think my answer is pretty clear.

It is easy to fix a solution regarding Kosovo and that is to let albanians rule their own life within Serbias borders and to have EU there to guarantee their right to self-determination. Any solution must be based on legal grounds and common understanding. Otherwise there will not be long lasting peace.

RE: Austria

Good step forward, it's about time someone in the EU stepped up to the plate.

Marti Ahtissari so called "negotiated agreement" is a slap in the face to the UN, UN charter, Helsinki Accords and every major international agreement and precedents since 1945.

Joe

I did not understand your comment until I changed the names Italian to Serbian and Serbian to Albanian. Now it makes perfect sense.

Italian democractic spirit? Is that the same spirit that invaded and occupied Albania in the 1930's? Serbs are one of the most freedom loving live let live people in the world! Their large minority populations are proof of that! If Serbs were so hell bent on destroying all non Serbs how do you explain 300,000 hungarians in Vojvodina, 2,000,000 Albanians in Southern Serbia, Roma, Turks & others? Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them after WWII when they could have? Nobody would have stoped it then! The Serbs let you (Albanians, Hungarians) stay in peace. They were on the Axis side & tried to eliminate the Serbs yet the Serbs did not seek revenge! Joe, stop your Serb hating remarks & tell the truth for once! The whole world is now starting to learn the truth, & that means your propaganda days are nearing an end. Goodbye forever!

"Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them after WWII when they could have?"
-----------------------------

they tried but they failed. (does Vaso Cubrilovic, or population exchange with Turkey ring a bell?)

Some good points have been raised in the comments, and I agree that the example of Alto Adige is a bit hipocritical to use one way and not consider the other.

The problem with the way the world has viewed and handled the situation in the balkans during the breakup of Yugoslavia has been that everyone tends to approach it as if they have the moral or ethical upper hand. It is dangerous to discount the history of Europe and indeed the rest of the world preceeding events at hand, and ignore the nasty crimes committed by all relevant nations in the not so distant past.

Can we forget the history of Kosovo just because it is convenient to, and hold an entire nationality (Serbs)solely accountable and responsible for the isolated actions of hatred carried out in the middle of a brutal civil war by ALL SIDES.

Austria has played a huge role in the unrest in the Balkans, as shown by their role during the Ottoman years as well as in both World Wars, as has Italy for the same reasons. Indeed both countries had windows of opportunity to gain strongholds out of the kingdom of Yugoslavia's lands, and took them, with Serbs suffering among the most casualties as a percentage of their total population in both World Wars, while fighting on the good side both times. Albania seized opportunities to further their independence drive in Kosovo by alligning with Hitler and Mussolini.

To assume that any nation or ethnicity is morally superior to another is dangerous, and sets a dangerous precendent in global politics. Who is to jugde that my country (the US) is morally superior to yours, and vice versa? Regardless of where you are from, every nation involved in negotiations on Kosovo has at some point, in many cases very recently, committed unspeakable human rights violations so the atmosphere must change in the coming talks. Instead of looking down on the Serbs from the start of the process, all nations must look at all parties eye to eye and negotiate on reasonable, logical, legal and moral terms. Only then will an appropriate solution be found that will properly address the concerns of both sides.

"you can´t trust the Serbs, they can revoke autonomy any time"

Joe, are you really THAT naive??? the whole world would watch that autonomy, since this part of the world was in the center of the world-media a few years ago ( even if it got there only due to terrorist activities by the socalled kla )
so, this offered broad autonomy is the best solution you can possibly get! more won´t be accepted by the Serbs, and if you know the Serbs, than you know that they won´t let KiM go, since it is theirs! remember: you live there, but you cannot take it away!

so, I will use your often used phrase because it fits better towards you: wake up!

To Zoran: Serbs tried and to a degree failed. Now you may try to be ironic but isn't it true that Serbia finds itself in this situation just because it tried to dominate not only other minorities within its republican borders but those within the former federation.
Yes, I agree that Serbs are a fredoom loving people, but so are the Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Bosniaks, Hungarian, Albanians, Macedonians, and who else that lived in the FRY. Look inside yourself and if you lack the ability or knowledge to self-assess than ask for help. Begin by trying to put yourself in other's shoes and see how it feels to see your loved ones buried alive just because they are not of your ethnicity or religion. You may deny that and I'd ask, "Who started all these damned wars in the Balkans, in the first place?" I'd very much like to see Serbs in Zagreb, Sarajevo Podgorica, Pristina, as I'd like to see Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Albanians move freely in Belgrade. No grudge, no lowdowns. Just neighbors.

Personally, I believe it will happen, and soon.

Princip -(hope you do not mean what the name carries with it, as otherwise my message will indeed be another ink in the paper)

Okay - your confer to my earlier comment and i appreciate that.

Realistic- How do you propose Kosovan people to integrate into the Serbian's government institutions???
Please do reflect on the actual people who live in Kosova whether they confer to be ruled by Serabian government again?( specially under the same political force currently in the drive that has embedded same political views as pre kosovan war????)
Personally on my visits to Kosova i have meet and spoke to serbian's who live beyond the north Mitrovica and they appear to be moving as free as any other kosovan citizen, remember initially they refused to everything after 1999, then they started to integrate and now they even have businesses with albanians in partnership. If the political influence was not the main drive to the serbs in Kosovo, serbians would by all means integrate into Kosovan institutions by now ( i mean fully, since partly they have)
Another thing you have to remember my dear friend that some of the criminal minds/perpetrators of the kosovan war have moved to north of Mitrovica and they are the ones that they are directly leasing with Belgrade and are impeding the rest of the community to integrate, hence the lack of the reconstruction of the infrastructure and other institutions there.

But let me tell you one thing on which we may agree ( or agree to disagree)
The will of the people matters, period. As a former country comrades we both are aiming for our countries to integrate into EU, meaning there will be no borders anyway. So what's the fuss!

I know that you may still cling to the idea of the churches and other alleged cultural heritages, however we both know that from both communities (albanian and serbs) there are certain selfish, uneducated, bigots (want me to go on) that will attempt to stare the hatred, racism and so and and so forth, for personal/emotional gains. I hope my dear friend that you do not agree with this values, and since you have lived in the UK for sometimes now you have come to see the bigger picture and moved form the border thing and be more in tuned with the reality.

I might be a little sleepy here but lets think of the future of our children in a EU without the nationalistic views from both sides, where they might( and have too in many ways) be working in partnership towards making the Balkans a batter place for their own. Lets hope that ( we seem to have missed that boat but still is not very late) they learn from the past and do not hate each other because few churches have some values for one and one may speak certain language or perhaps we are in a better position by confronting our own values and prejudices and teach are children that what happen in the past is cruel and unacceptable and give the set of values and principles which will set them to achieve their goals as human beings of the world and set the examples from now.

You’re wrong. Generally no democracy wage war against each other. There’s war between dictatorships, war between dicatorships and democratic countries, but no war between democratic countries. Milosevic was a bloody dictator, and NATO was pretty right to bombing Srspska in 1995 and Serbia in 1999 to bring this man ou of power. The only reason for Serbia to keep Kosovo inside its borders is RELIGIOUS but sorry, modern states don’t found themselves in religion, but in rationality. And rationally, Kosovo deserves independence becuse if it were reintegrated into Serbia, the Serbians would never accept Albanians as full-fledged citizens (would any time in History an ethnic Albanian be president or premier of Serbia?), and the autonomy would be revoked any time in the future, and that old talks of “Albanians already have a country called Albania, so they should go there!” or “Albanians are like african animals that reproduce very quickly” or “The Serbs are a sacred people and deserve Kosovo as their sacred heart” would resurface.

Zoran,
You should realize that with the old propoganda methode - vehement agressive reaction, falsification of facts - you can not mislead people anymore.
Let me shoot down your arguments one by one. You give me a very easy task.
-Italian invasion of the 1930's: stay focused on the subject, the CURRENT Italy!!!
- 300,000 Hungarians in Vojvodina: they were much, much more but using your own words you were "hell bent" to violently reduce their numbers. In fall of 1944 about 80,000 innocent Hungarians of Vojvodina, simple peasants were slaughtered. Until recently it was forbidden to talk about it. It was the policy of denial.
- Your cynical admission of this massacre when you write: "Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them"? Actually you would have killed all of them but 1 or 2 countries intervened to stop the massacre. The WAY you are talking about the possible killing of so many innocent people put you in a very special category of people.
- The Serbs let you in peace: wow this is a good one! What about the massacre I described? Do you mean peace of cemetery?
- Tell the truth for once: I told it. Can you accept it?
- The whole world is now starting to learn the truth: Oh yes and you will not like it. Now that you try to get into the EU you will have to acknowledge all the skelletons in your closets.

What about the Serbs keeping the north part of Kosovo and the rest of it getting its independence? And is it possible to relocate the Serbian churches and monasteries to either northern Kosovo or Serbia?

The Macedonian government is looking for Stanisllava Çoçorovska-Poletan A Serbian citizen and Serbian nationality to face charges for drug dealing around 500 kg ( half tone) ,in Macedonia .
Princip UK , do you know how much is 500 kg of cocaine,?

zoran you have problem with the truth. Do I have to thank you for treating us good after WW2?

from the very beginning the real aim of serbia is to divide kosovo and to keep north mitrovoca (they all know that they can not keep kosovo under their rule)...french gave a good help in so doing by being responsible for this region...(see memories of kouchner)...
So now we have to deal with this austrian projet to achieve this aim...
it is not a good idea because we are going back into the conflict: serbs want a clear division and albanians will oppose it ,and then we will have the same desiderata with the preshevo valley,and surely with albanian in macedonia...

So everyone wants Kosovo to become independant? Let me ask you one question, what about the republic of serbia in bosnia, which at one stage was 52% of bosnia (currently 50%)? I would love to see what is going to happen there!!! See who the real nieve people are. See how this political game is played when they deny the break off of serbian republic in bosnia. Watch people, you will see who the real liers are and who you cannot trust, just like joe.

And furthermore, I'm suprised that you dont know that a somewhat large proportion of Muslims living in Kosovo have commited genocide on Serbs during World War II. Along with illegal immigration to Kosovo from Albanian is how there is 90% Muslim population that labels themselfs as Albanian living in Kosovo. In conclusion, im scared for the people who belive otherwise; since this means that they are most likely misguided about the real reason behind the drive for Kosovo's breakway from Serbia.

Princip – to us, the Albanians, there is NO alternative solution than independence!
Pointless talking about it m8, as there is only a clear understanding among us, that Kosovo is DEMANDED to become independent.
The people of Serbia can find not only one solution that they can all live with, but as many as they like. We wouldn’t care less about it!
Regarding peace, there shall never be, unless Belgrade recognises the republic of Kosovo.
The Austrian diplomat is helping the political elite in Belgrade come to terms with the reality, and the need that they face to recognise Kosovo!
Joe-very well said. Don’t forget though, that Kosovo in reality was occupied by force in 1913, and it was liberated in 1999 after the war.
It no longer belongs to Serbia.
Don’t ever again look at it anymore as a Serbian province, this is just an inaccuracy in the UN, which the council is concluding with the ahtisary plan, and it will be corrected with the formal recognition of its independence!
Justice Veritas-it is impossible to force the Albanians to rule themselves within the Serbian borders! History has proven that it was a fatal error to allow its occupation on the first place in 1913, and it must be proclaimed now an unjust and a shameful act of the time.
The Albanians do not need guaranties by any1, we know what we want and we will fully get it! Nobody will ever dare to rule us again in our own land and country!
We do not want peace with anybody if their understanding is that we should remain under Serbia! All who think such are our enemies.
konstantin gregovic - ahtisary ant u m8, and not even like anybody of your higher politicians but probably the most skillful negotiator in the world. So, please some respect! Ahtisaris solution can have no other alternative which will guarantee the large Serb privileges in Kosovo. The independence has no alternative either and it is not negotiable!
Zoran – I do not know why u hasn’t killed yet those Hungarians which remain, and I wouldn’t care less of your policy towards them!
I now that the Roma and the Turks are insignificant and a waste of time 4 your government to deal with anyway!
The Albanians you did try to eliminate constantly all the time since the OCCUPATION of Kosovo in 1913. If you were to be so peaceful then today we would not have 2 million Albanians in south Serbia but 4 or perhaps even more!
Mark - The other way can’t be considered, I’m repeating, Kosovo was occupied in 1913! In 1999 was liberated. Now it’s free and independent effectively. Who dares to impose what u suggests us to consider? Do u realise that u make no sense in your comment now?
It is very dangerous for the peace in the Balkans if you disregard the Albanian continuous demand for independence after its illegal annexation into Serbia in 1913. It is very dangerous for the entire Europe to be short sited in this matter and only gab about international law, and knowingly refuse to come to terms with the unique demand of this case. You are discussing me with your comments, and I wouldn’t even like to waste my time reminding irresponsible people like u what happened in the war!
It was not a brutal civil war by all sides. It was a legitimate revolt of the nation of Kosovo, which had everything denied to it and thrown to the streets of their own land and country, since their autonomy brutal removal. Belgrade crushed and eliminated thousands of civilians, using as a pretext the creation of the KLA. Serbia had planed this extinction well, first removed their rites, then through them on the streets, and after it had no Albanians residing in any posts in Kosovo, had in effect wiped their legal existence and what’s more important was continually oppressing them to ignite the inevitable Albanian aggression which would then give the wonderful Serbs the upper hand and legalise their crime of ethnic cleansing! That was when they started murdering the civilians in mass and the rest who survived escaped out of Kosovo.
I feel sorry and sad that I still find today Serbs who at list don’t regret what they did, and that still support this, by turning the blind eye to what happened in Kosovo and the reality in it now.
“Regardless of where you are from, every nation involved in negotiations on Kosovo has at some point, in many cases very recently, committed unspeakable human rights violations so the atmosphere must change in the coming talks”- quote
Well you are irresponsibly wrong, and please do not thing that you are cleaver than your government as a whole. If they were not going to get involved, Kosovo would be involved in a full scale war! Albania would have stepped in immediately to save the Albanians if the international community was not going to! There would be a lot of human life loss from what happened, and the war would have ended with the complete and total destruction of Serbia and the fall of Belgrade, because turkey would have come in to Albania’s help if the country would loose the battle and be touched, even by a single inch from Serbia in that war!
So you are extremely immature and please do not make any more comments which carry more weight than you can carry.
Jovan – m8 we are not afraid of you, and we are not afraid of your threat either. We are not trying to convince you at all to recognize our independence, don’t ever do. I can’t believe you are lead to believe so, you must be slow!
It’s just a damn process that has to be done this way for the legal team at UN to declare us independent by international law! But even this is not necessary to us at all! It is what the UN prefers, but we wouldn’t care less how is it dune!
Am not sure that you know this, but the parliament in Kosovo was about to declare its unilateral independence back more than a year ago, a time when the UN kindly begged them not to do it yet! And promised it was better for them to be dune the UN way!
So u sincerely needs to wake up dreamer!
A.T.S – I would love to see this nations working together like the western Europeans are doing currently! But I am sad to admit that I don’t see what you say to be a reality now, but maybe even as far as 30-50 years from now! The new generation which will grow up in a climate of brotherhood between our nations will be capable of leaving your and my dream! Currently is un pragmatic when you still have a government in Belgrade worse than that of Milosevic when it comes to dealing with Kosovo’s just demand!
Just asking – it is not possible to relocate an old monument when there is no need to do so! It is also not possible to relocate kosovos serbs into Serbia as there is no need for that either, unless those people decide to emigrate in Serbia proper for their own personal resons!
Lili – if the serbs in mitrovica refuse to integrate in Kosovo, they must be forced by force to integrate or immigrate wherever ales they like, if they no longer like their place! That is said, end off the fuss, as the serbs can’t have a say for kosovos interior problems, as we don’t interfere with serbias interior policies either! After all the UN includes the division of Kosovo in its three big NO’s for Kosovo, including the return of the Serbian rule over it, and its current union with any other territory or country!
Goran – you are very pathetic.
Serbia massacred thousands of Bosnians and you should be ashamed of that first of all.
The reason why your government policy demanded that massacre was not just simply to kill people for fun! It was set out to create an almost 50% Serbian figure for a couple of reasons, by wiping out a part of its Bosnian majority, which it successfully did! I am sure you are proud of it!
Now, in a country where the population is almost 50-50 no side can decide for the whole countries future, unilaterally, and both parts argument would count. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one sea it, those to communities are bonded together and have no rite to succeed because they will have to divide the country otherwise! And it is the same problem they face concerning any other important policy that Bosnia has to take, because they both have to agree.
The Albanians are not setting out to divide Kosovo, as they own it as a whole!
This is the difference! The creation of those republics within Bosnia was illegal and only a recent phenomenon, demanded by Belgrade which of course new what would happened in Kosovo when it would apply its plan, where it would use it to counterbalance its policy’s attitude and use this as an answer to the expected Albanian demand!
Kosovo has been a province divided from Serbia since its occupation in 1913.
Kosovo was always populated in large by Albanians and not Serbs.
So please do not mention the Bosnia case as it is shameful for you.
Basically you killed those people and took their land!
I wander will they heat you back when they get the power, and I would say that they could not be blamed if they took revenge and wiped your Bosnian Serbs out one day!

well everybody, italians and germans dont exactly have a balkan mentality.... thats why it cant work. then again maybe they could do that with kosovo macedonia montenegro and greece, maybe just maybe the albanians would take it, its not greater albania its just less than independance but more that autonomy.maybe the serbs can lobby these countries on behalf of the albanians

Of course, let Kosovo become independent. The Serbs seem unable to rule it and the internationals will not govern it for them.
These eight years were a test for the Serbs. They failed it.
You cannot go around telling the world you are trying to capture Mladic when he is still in the payroll of your army (until 2005!!).
Serbs blowed their chance because they still elect the same kind of people.
The truth is they don't really want Kosovo; it is just their excuse for being unable to build a true democratic society.

Hey Serbs,
Go and build a country that will make Kosovo beg to get back. Otherwise let it go. Don't pull others down in your ugly misery.

Albanians living in Kosovo are the ones who need to integrate in the country that took them in. They shouldn’t gain independence because this would be unfair to the country that let them live in its borders. Why should Albanians who immigrated to Serbia deserve independence? They dont deserve it because they havent earned it in any way!

clayd this is the reason why I’m scared. This is why we have win-less wars; this is why genocides happen!

Year 1208 - Kosovo belonged to the Serbian Kings; Serbian people build churches and monasteries in Kosovo. They stand to this day.
Year 1500 - The population of Kosovo is predominantly Serbian and Albanian at this time. Ottoman Empire conquers Kosovo and Serbian people are enslaved. Serbs are forced to pay taxes to their Ottoman invaders. Serbs are impaled on stakes. Serbian people fight the Ottoman Empire along with many other European people such as the Greeks and Russians; this is why Serbs, Greeks and Russians still like each other to this day. Because of “historical ties”.
Year 1912 – The Kingdom of Serbia gains back Kosovo
Why do you still claim that this region is yours?

Compromise is the only way forward and creating poor timescales are not SMART and liekly to mean any objective is unfeasible.

Real Talks and real negotiations will happen anything else will be "futile & counterproductive".

Given Austria's assistance it is obvious that the so called EU unity is far from the truth!

Austria working with Serbia? Serbia already controls the northern slice of Kosovo. she doesn't need the Austrian model on guaranteed rights for the Serbs there.

Interesting development, and if it actually helps Serbia agree to Kosovo's independence, or at the very least allows a greater degree of consensus, I say let's let this work itself out. It seems the P-Albanian community wants something similar to this, so why not grant the same set of privileges to northern Kosovo? My only concern is that if northern Kosovo will be given this special status, 2/3 of the Serbian minority in Kovoso live south of the Ibar. What will be their condition, and will this coax them to relocate north of the Ibar?

Thank you Austria. At least there is one EU stae which is trying to look at the problem from more than one angle.

My only critisism is that if Austria believes a Alto Adige solution is workable for serbs in a Republic of kosova why is it not a workable solution for the whole of Kosovo within Serbia?

Two things I have to say to you my dear Serbian counterparts.

Kosova's Independence is neither IMMANENT nor INEVITABLE

Austria has credibility in the region as an historic player, and a current investor that has put faith in the people it meant to rule centuries ago.

How about giving "Alto Adige status" to the serbian cities (Presev, Medvedje and Bujanovac) dominated by Albanians. Would that be something Serbs would accpet!

Arben

M,

I confer Kosova's Independence is neither Imminent nor Inevitable

I think we might find that through real dialogue and understanding that all the poeples of Serbia can find a solution that they can all live with.

"Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict -- alternatives to passive or aggressive responses, alternatives to violence." Dorothy Thomson.

It's time that all alternatives were indeed looked into so that a sustainable solution maybe found!

Jack

You have a very good question there. "Why the Alto Adige solution is not workable for the whole of Kosovo within Serbia?"
The answer is very, very simple. The Italians have a democratic mentality and tolerance toward non-Italians. They have what the French call the europeen "esprit" or spirit "Live and let others live". The Serbs on the other side? The whole world knows what they did in Kosovo. Also giving autonomy? They would revoke it any time just like they did it before. In short NOBODY trust them for good reason! I think my answer is pretty clear.

It is easy to fix a solution regarding Kosovo and that is to let albanians rule their own life within Serbias borders and to have EU there to guarantee their right to self-determination. Any solution must be based on legal grounds and common understanding. Otherwise there will not be long lasting peace.

RE: Austria

Good step forward, it's about time someone in the EU stepped up to the plate.

Marti Ahtissari so called "negotiated agreement" is a slap in the face to the UN, UN charter, Helsinki Accords and every major international agreement and precedents since 1945.

Joe

I did not understand your comment until I changed the names Italian to Serbian and Serbian to Albanian. Now it makes perfect sense.

Italian democractic spirit? Is that the same spirit that invaded and occupied Albania in the 1930's? Serbs are one of the most freedom loving live let live people in the world! Their large minority populations are proof of that! If Serbs were so hell bent on destroying all non Serbs how do you explain 300,000 hungarians in Vojvodina, 2,000,000 Albanians in Southern Serbia, Roma, Turks & others? Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them after WWII when they could have? Nobody would have stoped it then! The Serbs let you (Albanians, Hungarians) stay in peace. They were on the Axis side & tried to eliminate the Serbs yet the Serbs did not seek revenge! Joe, stop your Serb hating remarks & tell the truth for once! The whole world is now starting to learn the truth, & that means your propaganda days are nearing an end. Goodbye forever!

"Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them after WWII when they could have?"
-----------------------------

they tried but they failed. (does Vaso Cubrilovic, or population exchange with Turkey ring a bell?)

Some good points have been raised in the comments, and I agree that the example of Alto Adige is a bit hipocritical to use one way and not consider the other.

The problem with the way the world has viewed and handled the situation in the balkans during the breakup of Yugoslavia has been that everyone tends to approach it as if they have the moral or ethical upper hand. It is dangerous to discount the history of Europe and indeed the rest of the world preceeding events at hand, and ignore the nasty crimes committed by all relevant nations in the not so distant past.

Can we forget the history of Kosovo just because it is convenient to, and hold an entire nationality (Serbs)solely accountable and responsible for the isolated actions of hatred carried out in the middle of a brutal civil war by ALL SIDES.

Austria has played a huge role in the unrest in the Balkans, as shown by their role during the Ottoman years as well as in both World Wars, as has Italy for the same reasons. Indeed both countries had windows of opportunity to gain strongholds out of the kingdom of Yugoslavia's lands, and took them, with Serbs suffering among the most casualties as a percentage of their total population in both World Wars, while fighting on the good side both times. Albania seized opportunities to further their independence drive in Kosovo by alligning with Hitler and Mussolini.

To assume that any nation or ethnicity is morally superior to another is dangerous, and sets a dangerous precendent in global politics. Who is to jugde that my country (the US) is morally superior to yours, and vice versa? Regardless of where you are from, every nation involved in negotiations on Kosovo has at some point, in many cases very recently, committed unspeakable human rights violations so the atmosphere must change in the coming talks. Instead of looking down on the Serbs from the start of the process, all nations must look at all parties eye to eye and negotiate on reasonable, logical, legal and moral terms. Only then will an appropriate solution be found that will properly address the concerns of both sides.

"you can´t trust the Serbs, they can revoke autonomy any time"

Joe, are you really THAT naive??? the whole world would watch that autonomy, since this part of the world was in the center of the world-media a few years ago ( even if it got there only due to terrorist activities by the socalled kla )
so, this offered broad autonomy is the best solution you can possibly get! more won´t be accepted by the Serbs, and if you know the Serbs, than you know that they won´t let KiM go, since it is theirs! remember: you live there, but you cannot take it away!

so, I will use your often used phrase because it fits better towards you: wake up!

To Zoran: Serbs tried and to a degree failed. Now you may try to be ironic but isn't it true that Serbia finds itself in this situation just because it tried to dominate not only other minorities within its republican borders but those within the former federation.
Yes, I agree that Serbs are a fredoom loving people, but so are the Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Bosniaks, Hungarian, Albanians, Macedonians, and who else that lived in the FRY. Look inside yourself and if you lack the ability or knowledge to self-assess than ask for help. Begin by trying to put yourself in other's shoes and see how it feels to see your loved ones buried alive just because they are not of your ethnicity or religion. You may deny that and I'd ask, "Who started all these damned wars in the Balkans, in the first place?" I'd very much like to see Serbs in Zagreb, Sarajevo Podgorica, Pristina, as I'd like to see Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins, Albanians move freely in Belgrade. No grudge, no lowdowns. Just neighbors.

Personally, I believe it will happen, and soon.

Princip -(hope you do not mean what the name carries with it, as otherwise my message will indeed be another ink in the paper)

Okay - your confer to my earlier comment and i appreciate that.

Realistic- How do you propose Kosovan people to integrate into the Serbian's government institutions???
Please do reflect on the actual people who live in Kosova whether they confer to be ruled by Serabian government again?( specially under the same political force currently in the drive that has embedded same political views as pre kosovan war????)
Personally on my visits to Kosova i have meet and spoke to serbian's who live beyond the north Mitrovica and they appear to be moving as free as any other kosovan citizen, remember initially they refused to everything after 1999, then they started to integrate and now they even have businesses with albanians in partnership. If the political influence was not the main drive to the serbs in Kosovo, serbians would by all means integrate into Kosovan institutions by now ( i mean fully, since partly they have)
Another thing you have to remember my dear friend that some of the criminal minds/perpetrators of the kosovan war have moved to north of Mitrovica and they are the ones that they are directly leasing with Belgrade and are impeding the rest of the community to integrate, hence the lack of the reconstruction of the infrastructure and other institutions there.

But let me tell you one thing on which we may agree ( or agree to disagree)
The will of the people matters, period. As a former country comrades we both are aiming for our countries to integrate into EU, meaning there will be no borders anyway. So what's the fuss!

I know that you may still cling to the idea of the churches and other alleged cultural heritages, however we both know that from both communities (albanian and serbs) there are certain selfish, uneducated, bigots (want me to go on) that will attempt to stare the hatred, racism and so and and so forth, for personal/emotional gains. I hope my dear friend that you do not agree with this values, and since you have lived in the UK for sometimes now you have come to see the bigger picture and moved form the border thing and be more in tuned with the reality.

I might be a little sleepy here but lets think of the future of our children in a EU without the nationalistic views from both sides, where they might( and have too in many ways) be working in partnership towards making the Balkans a batter place for their own. Lets hope that ( we seem to have missed that boat but still is not very late) they learn from the past and do not hate each other because few churches have some values for one and one may speak certain language or perhaps we are in a better position by confronting our own values and prejudices and teach are children that what happen in the past is cruel and unacceptable and give the set of values and principles which will set them to achieve their goals as human beings of the world and set the examples from now.

You’re wrong. Generally no democracy wage war against each other. There’s war between dictatorships, war between dicatorships and democratic countries, but no war between democratic countries. Milosevic was a bloody dictator, and NATO was pretty right to bombing Srspska in 1995 and Serbia in 1999 to bring this man ou of power. The only reason for Serbia to keep Kosovo inside its borders is RELIGIOUS but sorry, modern states don’t found themselves in religion, but in rationality. And rationally, Kosovo deserves independence becuse if it were reintegrated into Serbia, the Serbians would never accept Albanians as full-fledged citizens (would any time in History an ethnic Albanian be president or premier of Serbia?), and the autonomy would be revoked any time in the future, and that old talks of “Albanians already have a country called Albania, so they should go there!” or “Albanians are like african animals that reproduce very quickly” or “The Serbs are a sacred people and deserve Kosovo as their sacred heart” would resurface.

Zoran,
You should realize that with the old propoganda methode - vehement agressive reaction, falsification of facts - you can not mislead people anymore.
Let me shoot down your arguments one by one. You give me a very easy task.
-Italian invasion of the 1930's: stay focused on the subject, the CURRENT Italy!!!
- 300,000 Hungarians in Vojvodina: they were much, much more but using your own words you were "hell bent" to violently reduce their numbers. In fall of 1944 about 80,000 innocent Hungarians of Vojvodina, simple peasants were slaughtered. Until recently it was forbidden to talk about it. It was the policy of denial.
- Your cynical admission of this massacre when you write: "Why didn't the Serbs kill all of them"? Actually you would have killed all of them but 1 or 2 countries intervened to stop the massacre. The WAY you are talking about the possible killing of so many innocent people put you in a very special category of people.
- The Serbs let you in peace: wow this is a good one! What about the massacre I described? Do you mean peace of cemetery?
- Tell the truth for once: I told it. Can you accept it?
- The whole world is now starting to learn the truth: Oh yes and you will not like it. Now that you try to get into the EU you will have to acknowledge all the skelletons in your closets.

What about the Serbs keeping the north part of Kosovo and the rest of it getting its independence? And is it possible to relocate the Serbian churches and monasteries to either northern Kosovo or Serbia?

The Macedonian government is looking for Stanisllava Çoçorovska-Poletan A Serbian citizen and Serbian nationality to face charges for drug dealing around 500 kg ( half tone) ,in Macedonia .
Princip UK , do you know how much is 500 kg of cocaine,?

zoran you have problem with the truth. Do I have to thank you for treating us good after WW2?

from the very beginning the real aim of serbia is to divide kosovo and to keep north mitrovoca (they all know that they can not keep kosovo under their rule)...french gave a good help in so doing by being responsible for this region...(see memories of kouchner)...
So now we have to deal with this austrian projet to achieve this aim...
it is not a good idea because we are going back into the conflict: serbs want a clear division and albanians will oppose it ,and then we will have the same desiderata with the preshevo valley,and surely with albanian in macedonia...

So everyone wants Kosovo to become independant? Let me ask you one question, what about the republic of serbia in bosnia, which at one stage was 52% of bosnia (currently 50%)? I would love to see what is going to happen there!!! See who the real nieve people are. See how this political game is played when they deny the break off of serbian republic in bosnia. Watch people, you will see who the real liers are and who you cannot trust, just like joe.

And furthermore, I'm suprised that you dont know that a somewhat large proportion of Muslims living in Kosovo have commited genocide on Serbs during World War II. Along with illegal immigration to Kosovo from Albanian is how there is 90% Muslim population that labels themselfs as Albanian living in Kosovo. In conclusion, im scared for the people who belive otherwise; since this means that they are most likely misguided about the real reason behind the drive for Kosovo's breakway from Serbia.

Princip – to us, the Albanians, there is NO alternative solution than independence!
Pointless talking about it m8, as there is only a clear understanding among us, that Kosovo is DEMANDED to become independent.
The people of Serbia can find not only one solution that they can all live with, but as many as they like. We wouldn’t care less about it!
Regarding peace, there shall never be, unless Belgrade recognises the republic of Kosovo.
The Austrian diplomat is helping the political elite in Belgrade come to terms with the reality, and the need that they face to recognise Kosovo!
Joe-very well said. Don’t forget though, that Kosovo in reality was occupied by force in 1913, and it was liberated in 1999 after the war.
It no longer belongs to Serbia.
Don’t ever again look at it anymore as a Serbian province, this is just an inaccuracy in the UN, which the council is concluding with the ahtisary plan, and it will be corrected with the formal recognition of its independence!
Justice Veritas-it is impossible to force the Albanians to rule themselves within the Serbian borders! History has proven that it was a fatal error to allow its occupation on the first place in 1913, and it must be proclaimed now an unjust and a shameful act of the time.
The Albanians do not need guaranties by any1, we know what we want and we will fully get it! Nobody will ever dare to rule us again in our own land and country!
We do not want peace with anybody if their understanding is that we should remain under Serbia! All who think such are our enemies.
konstantin gregovic - ahtisary ant u m8, and not even like anybody of your higher politicians but probably the most skillful negotiator in the world. So, please some respect! Ahtisaris solution can have no other alternative which will guarantee the large Serb privileges in Kosovo. The independence has no alternative either and it is not negotiable!
Zoran – I do not know why u hasn’t killed yet those Hungarians which remain, and I wouldn’t care less of your policy towards them!
I now that the Roma and the Turks are insignificant and a waste of time 4 your government to deal with anyway!
The Albanians you did try to eliminate constantly all the time since the OCCUPATION of Kosovo in 1913. If you were to be so peaceful then today we would not have 2 million Albanians in south Serbia but 4 or perhaps even more!
Mark - The other way can’t be considered, I’m repeating, Kosovo was occupied in 1913! In 1999 was liberated. Now it’s free and independent effectively. Who dares to impose what u suggests us to consider? Do u realise that u make no sense in your comment now?
It is very dangerous for the peace in the Balkans if you disregard the Albanian continuous demand for independence after its illegal annexation into Serbia in 1913. It is very dangerous for the entire Europe to be short sited in this matter and only gab about international law, and knowingly refuse to come to terms with the unique demand of this case. You are discussing me with your comments, and I wouldn’t even like to waste my time reminding irresponsible people like u what happened in the war!
It was not a brutal civil war by all sides. It was a legitimate revolt of the nation of Kosovo, which had everything denied to it and thrown to the streets of their own land and country, since their autonomy brutal removal. Belgrade crushed and eliminated thousands of civilians, using as a pretext the creation of the KLA. Serbia had planed this extinction well, first removed their rites, then through them on the streets, and after it had no Albanians residing in any posts in Kosovo, had in effect wiped their legal existence and what’s more important was continually oppressing them to ignite the inevitable Albanian aggression which would then give the wonderful Serbs the upper hand and legalise their crime of ethnic cleansing! That was when they started murdering the civilians in mass and the rest who survived escaped out of Kosovo.
I feel sorry and sad that I still find today Serbs who at list don’t regret what they did, and that still support this, by turning the blind eye to what happened in Kosovo and the reality in it now.
“Regardless of where you are from, every nation involved in negotiations on Kosovo has at some point, in many cases very recently, committed unspeakable human rights violations so the atmosphere must change in the coming talks”- quote
Well you are irresponsibly wrong, and please do not thing that you are cleaver than your government as a whole. If they were not going to get involved, Kosovo would be involved in a full scale war! Albania would have stepped in immediately to save the Albanians if the international community was not going to! There would be a lot of human life loss from what happened, and the war would have ended with the complete and total destruction of Serbia and the fall of Belgrade, because turkey would have come in to Albania’s help if the country would loose the battle and be touched, even by a single inch from Serbia in that war!
So you are extremely immature and please do not make any more comments which carry more weight than you can carry.
Jovan – m8 we are not afraid of you, and we are not afraid of your threat either. We are not trying to convince you at all to recognize our independence, don’t ever do. I can’t believe you are lead to believe so, you must be slow!
It’s just a damn process that has to be done this way for the legal team at UN to declare us independent by international law! But even this is not necessary to us at all! It is what the UN prefers, but we wouldn’t care less how is it dune!
Am not sure that you know this, but the parliament in Kosovo was about to declare its unilateral independence back more than a year ago, a time when the UN kindly begged them not to do it yet! And promised it was better for them to be dune the UN way!
So u sincerely needs to wake up dreamer!
A.T.S – I would love to see this nations working together like the western Europeans are doing currently! But I am sad to admit that I don’t see what you say to be a reality now, but maybe even as far as 30-50 years from now! The new generation which will grow up in a climate of brotherhood between our nations will be capable of leaving your and my dream! Currently is un pragmatic when you still have a government in Belgrade worse than that of Milosevic when it comes to dealing with Kosovo’s just demand!
Just asking – it is not possible to relocate an old monument when there is no need to do so! It is also not possible to relocate kosovos serbs into Serbia as there is no need for that either, unless those people decide to emigrate in Serbia proper for their own personal resons!
Lili – if the serbs in mitrovica refuse to integrate in Kosovo, they must be forced by force to integrate or immigrate wherever ales they like, if they no longer like their place! That is said, end off the fuss, as the serbs can’t have a say for kosovos interior problems, as we don’t interfere with serbias interior policies either! After all the UN includes the division of Kosovo in its three big NO’s for Kosovo, including the return of the Serbian rule over it, and its current union with any other territory or country!
Goran – you are very pathetic.
Serbia massacred thousands of Bosnians and you should be ashamed of that first of all.
The reason why your government policy demanded that massacre was not just simply to kill people for fun! It was set out to create an almost 50% Serbian figure for a couple of reasons, by wiping out a part of its Bosnian majority, which it successfully did! I am sure you are proud of it!
Now, in a country where the population is almost 50-50 no side can decide for the whole countries future, unilaterally, and both parts argument would count. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one sea it, those to communities are bonded together and have no rite to succeed because they will have to divide the country otherwise! And it is the same problem they face concerning any other important policy that Bosnia has to take, because they both have to agree.
The Albanians are not setting out to divide Kosovo, as they own it as a whole!
This is the difference! The creation of those republics within Bosnia was illegal and only a recent phenomenon, demanded by Belgrade which of course new what would happened in Kosovo when it would apply its plan, where it would use it to counterbalance its policy’s attitude and use this as an answer to the expected Albanian demand!
Kosovo has been a province divided from Serbia since its occupation in 1913.
Kosovo was always populated in large by Albanians and not Serbs.
So please do not mention the Bosnia case as it is shameful for you.
Basically you killed those people and took their land!
I wander will they heat you back when they get the power, and I would say that they could not be blamed if they took revenge and wiped your Bosnian Serbs out one day!

well everybody, italians and germans dont exactly have a balkan mentality.... thats why it cant work. then again maybe they could do that with kosovo macedonia montenegro and greece, maybe just maybe the albanians would take it, its not greater albania its just less than independance but more that autonomy.maybe the serbs can lobby these countries on behalf of the albanians

Of course, let Kosovo become independent. The Serbs seem unable to rule it and the internationals will not govern it for them.
These eight years were a test for the Serbs. They failed it.
You cannot go around telling the world you are trying to capture Mladic when he is still in the payroll of your army (until 2005!!).
Serbs blowed their chance because they still elect the same kind of people.
The truth is they don't really want Kosovo; it is just their excuse for being unable to build a true democratic society.

Hey Serbs,
Go and build a country that will make Kosovo beg to get back. Otherwise let it go. Don't pull others down in your ugly misery.

Albanians living in Kosovo are the ones who need to integrate in the country that took them in. They shouldn’t gain independence because this would be unfair to the country that let them live in its borders. Why should Albanians who immigrated to Serbia deserve independence? They dont deserve it because they havent earned it in any way!

clayd this is the reason why I’m scared. This is why we have win-less wars; this is why genocides happen!

Year 1208 - Kosovo belonged to the Serbian Kings; Serbian people build churches and monasteries in Kosovo. They stand to this day.
Year 1500 - The population of Kosovo is predominantly Serbian and Albanian at this time. Ottoman Empire conquers Kosovo and Serbian people are enslaved. Serbs are forced to pay taxes to their Ottoman invaders. Serbs are impaled on stakes. Serbian people fight the Ottoman Empire along with many other European people such as the Greeks and Russians; this is why Serbs, Greeks and Russians still like each other to this day. Because of “historical ties”.
Year 1912 – The Kingdom of Serbia gains back Kosovo
Why do you still claim that this region is yours?