Streets named after Vukovar commanders

Daniel,

are you suggesting that Draza (the General of the legitamate Yugoslav govt. in exile) ordered the extermination of 1/3rd Croats, another 3rd expelled and the final 3rd to be prolytised in Yugoslavia as a whole? That was the objective of Pavelic et al as we and you only know too well. I guess you idolise the guy who finished the job - Tudjman! Please don't use the same brush to try to tar Draza with the actions of the ustache - I suggest you read non-communist historical accounts that had a very creative account of events in the second world war.

Daniel,
You sound like some kind of expert, so tell me how many concentration camps were run by the Ustashi in WW2? How many victims, whether male, female, old, adult, or child perished in these camps? How many concentration camps run by the Chetniks? And you think they are equal?

You could find streets named after proto-fascist and Ustashi inspiration, Ante Starcevic both during WW2 and even today! Guess where? If you need a clue, they used the 'kuna' currency during their fascistic period in WW2 and, despite having a choice of any other word for the naming of their money, they use the kuna today, as a reminder.

RE: Archbishop Stipinac

We would be remiss not to metion the Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia who at the least stood by and watched Serbs being slaughtered. Not only that, but forced conversions of Serbs to Croats. He was only jailed ten years by TITO and later released.

The funny part is that he was beautified by the Catholic Church. So, he must be living in hell right now but beautified on earth.

Message to Daniel, You clearly do not know your history. The United States abandoned the Chetniks because Churchill cut a deal with Stalin because Stalin wanted Tito to come to power. This documentation is available to anyone that knows their history.

Daniel,
There is a book published in 1978 called 'Patriot or Traitor' by David Martin, which carries transcripts of interviews and proceedings by the Commission of Inquiry (in the USA in 1946) about Mihailovic and Chetniks in WW2. For example, you can read about the sacrifices of people who rescued the Americans in the belief that it was making a contribution to the cause of freedom only for the US Air Force to supply weapons to the Communists and then use those emptied planes to pick up their rescued airmen from the Chetniks who were fighting against the Communists. You can read about "bearded men" armed and controlled by the Germans operating from some towns, going out and fighting under the command of the Germans and calling themselves 'chetniks', but having no connection with Mihailovic. You can read eye-witness reports by US officers in the field observing Chetniks attacking Germans and then being attacked by Communists. You can read other eye-witness reports by US officers in the field reporting how they witnessed attacks on Germans by Chetniks or sabotage by Chetniks only for the BBC to attribute those acts to the Communists. This was because there was a British traitor called James Klugman filtering reports from Yugoslavia and creating a bias toward the Communists, although that is covered by a later David Martin book.

The trial of Mihailovic was run by Communists (Red Fascists, led by Tito, a Communist - if that is not bad enough - who also tried to parlay with the Germans in 1943 about a deal on collaboration with the Nazis) and they refused to allow any of the 500 US airmen, pilots, navigators, bomber crews rescued by the Chetniks - 'Halyard Operation' was the biggest rescue from behind enemy lines in history, 500 Americans rescued, but not even a run-down alley in America named for Gen.Mihailovic - to appear as witnesses in defense of Mihailovic. Communist 'justice' was/is a travesty and the Yugoslav Communists slaughtered people in their tens of thousands after WW2 and had their sick-joke show trials also, plus the death camps, for example, on Goli Otok.

You also talk about the "last ones" to commit fascist crimes in Europe? August 1995, 'Operation Storm' seems to fit the chronological criteria you mention.

I fully support the idea.

Go SRS!

Mihailovic got a medal for saving americans, not because he was some sort of anti-fascist. The fact is that the cetniks were just as bad as ustasha during the second part of ww2. If serbs dont want to acknowledge that, it doesnt mean it wasnt so. Its also the reason why the allies abandoned Mihailovic, but serbs ignore that bit.

"The fact is that the cetniks were just as bad as ustasha during the second part of ww2".

Thats just silly. The Chetniks sided with the British and many, particularly in Croatia and western Bosnia, were civilians who banded together to fight and run for their lives against the invading Nazis and their Ustashe allies.

After the War, many legally emigrated to Britain and Canada, set up Chetnik war veterans halls and even received war veterans benefits from Britain and Canada.

The allies abandoned the Royalists because the Chetniks no longer wanted to fight the Nazis. The Nazis began reprisal killing civilians for each German soldier killed.

Titos Communist Partisans ignored the reprisal killings,
continued fighting and subsequently received the bulk of the aid from the communist Soviets.

I agree with Princip, its in bad taste. I’ve always condemned Croatia’s naming of bridges and such after Tudjman and this is no different.

To Daniel, your knowledge of WWII history is remarkable. Please inform us of Cetnik death camps, or who won the “king of the cut-throats” on the Cetnik side. You are lucky denying the Serbian holocaust of WWII is not a crime.

I'm a Canadian and here in Canada Gen. Mihailovic is regarded as a WWII hero. His men fought Nazi's against insurmountable odds and were a great asset to the allied victory. There is an enormous building built in Windsor, Ontario Canada named after him. Its name: General Draza Mihailovic Place. A statue of him is also outside the building.

I'm sure anyone here against Draza must have been fighting on the side of the Nazi's during WWII. Hence the reason for being against him. But to the allies, he's one of us.

i was in novi sad in winter 1999/2000 and thought it a pretty progressive and relatively open-minded place (esp. considering it had recently been bombed and the bridges were something of a disaster area.) now i see that novi sad (well, the majority in the govt) is openly glorifying fascists and scum. let me tell you something, people, you can play all the games you want w your historic victimization; but a fascist is a fascist is a fascist no matter what their accent or ethnicity. serbia has yet to wake up fr the milosevic nightmare, save some few enlightened intellectuals and open-minded people. and yet the nationalists that comment in this section demand! that the albanians and others stay on board w "democratic" serbia?! very bizarre and sick.

robert-0

Cetniks in second half of ww2 were just as bad ustasha. I do think that cetniks from Serbia were acting different from Cetniks in Bosnia and Croatia. However Mihajlovic did get trialed as a war criminal and no one defending him apart from serbs in that regard. Perhaps serbs should brush up on their own history.

as for concentration camps....didnt serbs have many during the 90's? So I dont think serbs can preach to anyone about their own past since they were the last ones to commit fascist crimes in europe.

I personally see no problem, as long as there isnt absolute racism behind the naming of these streets..I mean i dont expect to see Draza Mihajlovic or Ante Pavelic Boulevard anytime soon. *thumbs down*

Zlatko,

I don't happen to agree and it is a political message that SRS would have been better placed to have not implemented.

If you happened to be a Croat civilian or a relative of one who had been in Vukovar at the time I don't think you would feel comfortable walking down a boulevard that honoured a commander of it's destruction.

I do not agree with glorifying anyone who was responsible or in a position of responsibilty and did nothing to stop civilians from being killed be that which ever ethnic group you belong too. I am fully aware of the atrocities committed against the Serbs in Vukovar but 2 wrongs don't make a right and this is a another poor move in my thoughts.

Regarding Draza Mihailovic I would suggest you look into why the US commemorate him and know that much of the Communist historical accounts of the 2nd world war were very creative indeed!

As a stranac, I find it amazing the need to constantly change the names of roads in this country. Forget the names (I have no firm understanding of the specific people mentioned, so I cannot comment one way or another on this); it is the re-naming of roads just for the sake of it that is ridiculous.

still wondering about the heavy reactions on daniel a.k.a. goebbels for the poor-minded! ok, that was harsh, goebbels at least saw some school from the inside in his life!

as the good nazi he is, he ain´t just inventing genocide (look at his obscure homepage), denieng real genocide in srebrenica on serb victims (with real numbers), he is also (at least) consequent and softening croatian nazi-crimes in ww2 with - again invented - crimes of mihajlovic.

from his point of view "britannica" and others are nazi-glorifiers and didn´t check the ww2 at all (like he did).

about the renaming: man, that was about time!

Mihailovic got a medal for saving americans, not because he was some sort of anti-fascist. The fact is that the cetniks were just as bad as ustasha during the second part of ww2. If serbs dont want to acknowledge that, it doesnt mean it wasnt so. Its also the reason why the allies abandoned Mihailovic, but serbs ignore that bit.

i was in novi sad in winter 1999/2000 and thought it a pretty progressive and relatively open-minded place (esp. considering it had recently been bombed and the bridges were something of a disaster area.) now i see that novi sad (well, the majority in the govt) is openly glorifying fascists and scum. let me tell you something, people, you can play all the games you want w your historic victimization; but a fascist is a fascist is a fascist no matter what their accent or ethnicity. serbia has yet to wake up fr the milosevic nightmare, save some few enlightened intellectuals and open-minded people. and yet the nationalists that comment in this section demand! that the albanians and others stay on board w "democratic" serbia?! very bizarre and sick.

robert-0

As a stranac, I find it amazing the need to constantly change the names of roads in this country. Forget the names (I have no firm understanding of the specific people mentioned, so I cannot comment one way or another on this); it is the re-naming of roads just for the sake of it that is ridiculous.

I fully support the idea.

Go SRS!

RE: Archbishop Stipinac

We would be remiss not to metion the Archbishop Stepinac of Croatia who at the least stood by and watched Serbs being slaughtered. Not only that, but forced conversions of Serbs to Croats. He was only jailed ten years by TITO and later released.

The funny part is that he was beautified by the Catholic Church. So, he must be living in hell right now but beautified on earth.

I'm a Canadian and here in Canada Gen. Mihailovic is regarded as a WWII hero. His men fought Nazi's against insurmountable odds and were a great asset to the allied victory. There is an enormous building built in Windsor, Ontario Canada named after him. Its name: General Draza Mihailovic Place. A statue of him is also outside the building.

I'm sure anyone here against Draza must have been fighting on the side of the Nazi's during WWII. Hence the reason for being against him. But to the allies, he's one of us.

Cetniks in second half of ww2 were just as bad ustasha. I do think that cetniks from Serbia were acting different from Cetniks in Bosnia and Croatia. However Mihajlovic did get trialed as a war criminal and no one defending him apart from serbs in that regard. Perhaps serbs should brush up on their own history.

as for concentration camps....didnt serbs have many during the 90's? So I dont think serbs can preach to anyone about their own past since they were the last ones to commit fascist crimes in europe.

I personally see no problem, as long as there isnt absolute racism behind the naming of these streets..I mean i dont expect to see Draza Mihajlovic or Ante Pavelic Boulevard anytime soon. *thumbs down*

Zlatko,

I don't happen to agree and it is a political message that SRS would have been better placed to have not implemented.

If you happened to be a Croat civilian or a relative of one who had been in Vukovar at the time I don't think you would feel comfortable walking down a boulevard that honoured a commander of it's destruction.

I do not agree with glorifying anyone who was responsible or in a position of responsibilty and did nothing to stop civilians from being killed be that which ever ethnic group you belong too. I am fully aware of the atrocities committed against the Serbs in Vukovar but 2 wrongs don't make a right and this is a another poor move in my thoughts.

Regarding Draza Mihailovic I would suggest you look into why the US commemorate him and know that much of the Communist historical accounts of the 2nd world war were very creative indeed!

Daniel,
You sound like some kind of expert, so tell me how many concentration camps were run by the Ustashi in WW2? How many victims, whether male, female, old, adult, or child perished in these camps? How many concentration camps run by the Chetniks? And you think they are equal?

You could find streets named after proto-fascist and Ustashi inspiration, Ante Starcevic both during WW2 and even today! Guess where? If you need a clue, they used the 'kuna' currency during their fascistic period in WW2 and, despite having a choice of any other word for the naming of their money, they use the kuna today, as a reminder.

Daniel,

are you suggesting that Draza (the General of the legitamate Yugoslav govt. in exile) ordered the extermination of 1/3rd Croats, another 3rd expelled and the final 3rd to be prolytised in Yugoslavia as a whole? That was the objective of Pavelic et al as we and you only know too well. I guess you idolise the guy who finished the job - Tudjman! Please don't use the same brush to try to tar Draza with the actions of the ustache - I suggest you read non-communist historical accounts that had a very creative account of events in the second world war.

"The fact is that the cetniks were just as bad as ustasha during the second part of ww2".

Thats just silly. The Chetniks sided with the British and many, particularly in Croatia and western Bosnia, were civilians who banded together to fight and run for their lives against the invading Nazis and their Ustashe allies.

After the War, many legally emigrated to Britain and Canada, set up Chetnik war veterans halls and even received war veterans benefits from Britain and Canada.

The allies abandoned the Royalists because the Chetniks no longer wanted to fight the Nazis. The Nazis began reprisal killing civilians for each German soldier killed.

Titos Communist Partisans ignored the reprisal killings,
continued fighting and subsequently received the bulk of the aid from the communist Soviets.

I agree with Princip, its in bad taste. I’ve always condemned Croatia’s naming of bridges and such after Tudjman and this is no different.

To Daniel, your knowledge of WWII history is remarkable. Please inform us of Cetnik death camps, or who won the “king of the cut-throats” on the Cetnik side. You are lucky denying the Serbian holocaust of WWII is not a crime.

still wondering about the heavy reactions on daniel a.k.a. goebbels for the poor-minded! ok, that was harsh, goebbels at least saw some school from the inside in his life!

as the good nazi he is, he ain´t just inventing genocide (look at his obscure homepage), denieng real genocide in srebrenica on serb victims (with real numbers), he is also (at least) consequent and softening croatian nazi-crimes in ww2 with - again invented - crimes of mihajlovic.

from his point of view "britannica" and others are nazi-glorifiers and didn´t check the ww2 at all (like he did).

about the renaming: man, that was about time!

Daniel,
There is a book published in 1978 called 'Patriot or Traitor' by David Martin, which carries transcripts of interviews and proceedings by the Commission of Inquiry (in the USA in 1946) about Mihailovic and Chetniks in WW2. For example, you can read about the sacrifices of people who rescued the Americans in the belief that it was making a contribution to the cause of freedom only for the US Air Force to supply weapons to the Communists and then use those emptied planes to pick up their rescued airmen from the Chetniks who were fighting against the Communists. You can read about "bearded men" armed and controlled by the Germans operating from some towns, going out and fighting under the command of the Germans and calling themselves 'chetniks', but having no connection with Mihailovic. You can read eye-witness reports by US officers in the field observing Chetniks attacking Germans and then being attacked by Communists. You can read other eye-witness reports by US officers in the field reporting how they witnessed attacks on Germans by Chetniks or sabotage by Chetniks only for the BBC to attribute those acts to the Communists. This was because there was a British traitor called James Klugman filtering reports from Yugoslavia and creating a bias toward the Communists, although that is covered by a later David Martin book.

The trial of Mihailovic was run by Communists (Red Fascists, led by Tito, a Communist - if that is not bad enough - who also tried to parlay with the Germans in 1943 about a deal on collaboration with the Nazis) and they refused to allow any of the 500 US airmen, pilots, navigators, bomber crews rescued by the Chetniks - 'Halyard Operation' was the biggest rescue from behind enemy lines in history, 500 Americans rescued, but not even a run-down alley in America named for Gen.Mihailovic - to appear as witnesses in defense of Mihailovic. Communist 'justice' was/is a travesty and the Yugoslav Communists slaughtered people in their tens of thousands after WW2 and had their sick-joke show trials also, plus the death camps, for example, on Goli Otok.

You also talk about the "last ones" to commit fascist crimes in Europe? August 1995, 'Operation Storm' seems to fit the chronological criteria you mention.

Message to Daniel, You clearly do not know your history. The United States abandoned the Chetniks because Churchill cut a deal with Stalin because Stalin wanted Tito to come to power. This documentation is available to anyone that knows their history.