Churkin: I did not leave Security Council session

In my opinion there is no more room for negotiations.
I wonder if Belgrade think that time is by its side.
Everything is by Albanian side.
How some Serbian people could think that they would persuade 2 millions Albanians into being ruled by Belgrade?

Massimo - Nobody thinks that 2 million Albanians can be ruled by Belgrade. Serbia is offering autonomy to the province.
The 2m people that you speak of still live within Serbian boundaries, whether you find that distasteful or not. And I'm sure that many of them would rather live peaceful lives in an autonomous province than be terrorised by the criminal elements which currently have far too much power in the 'protectorate'.

I'd say, *everything* is on Serbia's side.

There is no viable investment (read exploitation) plans by *any* western/asian country
on any form of albanian Kosovo.

The west is doomed to leave kosovo to its fate.
The only country that has the will to save kosovo from its own problems (mafia/corruption/underdevelopment)
is Serbia.

That's the way it has been,
and will always be.

Albanians with common sense seeking for a better future know that but are just afraid to declare in public.

Give Kosovo a chance!!!!
Give it back to the Serbs.

before even we go further Massimo, I want to clarify something to you and other that have your opinon.
There are three things that create a state:
1. Territory - We have with borders and bounduries since 1999 very clear from Serbia
2. Population - 2 million as you mentuioned already,
3. Soverighnity - we have since 1999 secured from UNMIK whch is on it final phase of transtion this year from UN Security Counsil.

p.s. Massimo you can contact your italian office in Prishtina for further details if you need, they know this better........

Ciao from Kosovo

Kate - You're wrong. The Kosovar Albanians will settle for nothing less than independence. Kosovo was lost in 1999 and I think, behind closed doors, Serbians will be glad to be rid of it.

"World powers clash over Kosovo" I just simply cannot believe this. Deja vu all over again. The Serb political elite, and even Serb media, are so much embroiled and engulfed by the past that they cannot see a fly in present of their nose. Titles like these serve only one purpose and that is to create and keep a fake impression that Serbia and Kosova matters and that because of Kosova somehow, there is bound to be some friction between world powers aka G. Princip and World War I.

I am appalled that even after 1999 when NATO not only defied Russia, openly, but it even bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade politicians, reporters, parties and posters in this site don't understand that there will be no clash, not friction and absolutely no escalation of any sort in the relations of the World powers. People 1999 was only 8 years ago, not 600, 500 or 400 years ago for that matter. We should remember and learn something. Kosova will become an independent country whether Russia likes it or not. Couple of months ago Russia talked about a veto, then it switched talking about a solution agreeable by both parties and now they have switched and talk about resumption of negotiations.

Can't you all see that these guys are only looking to get something out of this for their own interests? In the end I am very much afraid that Serbs in Kosova will loose everything. Serbia deserves what it will get but not the Serbs of Kosova. Kosovar Serbs are being played and duped by the very country which is supposed to represent them during negotiations.

If this negotiation process has a flaw I believe that its flaw was that Kosovar Serbs were not allowed to participate themselves and negotiate a deal with Kosovar Albanians. Serbia should have not been allowed to talk about Kosova, they lost the war in 1999, signed Kumanovo agreement and they were out ever since, and should and will stay out.

The negotiations process should have been between Kosovar Serbs and Kosovar Albanians. This way a fair solution would have been found, and what is even more important a path towards reconciliation between these two could have been opened. In the end these two will have to live side by side and not Serbia. Serbia with its current stance is only fueling problems and distrust and hopes for a major escalation for the worst in situation in Kosova.

Kate

Where do you live? Where do you see these terrorists you are claiming. If US, Germany, France, GB, and other countries supports Kosova independence do you think they are supporting terrorists? Stop this infelicitous propaganda, and try at least now to establish good relationship with your south neighbor Kosova, because this is your last chance.

The broke down US empire throws stones into it's glass house. The years of the drunken Eltsin are over. Russia will fight for the interests of its allies. USA will need get used to this.

"Ahilleas" we don't need anybody to take care of us. We will build our country. If you think that every nation needs some another nation to take care of it let start with Serbia giving it to Rusia or Gana for example.

Kosvo has had enough,if kosovo once agin is left under the serbian rule than the region will face a lot of problems.The only solution is independence and later on joining to its trunk Albania.

Give Kosovo back to the Serbs?

We all know what happened and we all know what Serbs are going to do if Kosovo is given back to the Serbs. Furthermore why should Kosovo be given back to the Serbs? Isn't Democracy about majority rule? How could a minority control the majority? I thought Serbia is now democratic, yet I thought wrong.

You cannot set a criminal free, thus you cannot give the victim back to the criminal.

I hope you get my point.

Ahilleas

"Albanians with common sense seeking for a better future know that but are just afraid to declare in public. " - I can assure that no albanian with common sense or not, wants to remain within serbia.

And believe me we expect no support or sympathy from greeks, whose racists view towards albanians were clearly highlighted in the video that emerged recently.

As an Irishman who has visited Serbia a number of times and who will be back within a few months, I would like to make a few comments regarding the proposed independence of Kosovo. here in Ireland we know the results of the forced partition of our country. As a result of centuries of British rule and landgrabbing, we found ourselves with a British majority in the North-East of our country. As part of the settlement of our War of Independence (1918-1921), our country was partitioned with the six counties of the North-East remaining under British authority. The result was several decades of sectarian rule and constant descrimination against the Irish minority in this mini-state. The situation exploded in the late sixties with the emergence of the IRA and led to thirty years of civil strife. My point is that the international community should think twice and be very, very careful before imposing partition on the Serbian people. It never works.

"Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin stormed out of the UN Security Council regular session Monday," after having taken off his shoe and banged on the table with it.

The "Serbia lost Kosovo in 1999" argument is a false one as UN Security council resolution 1244 clearly states:

"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act [...]"

And as Serbia is the successor state to the FRY, nothing can legally be changed until there is a new UNSC resolution.

Very unconstructive aproach by mr. Churkin when it comes to helping the Serbian cause.
I guess that time has come when Russians start to turn their backs to Serbians.

It clearly shows that Russia at this moment does not want to make enemies with USA and EU, so the easiest way to please both sides is by abandoning the meating. This is exactly how you don't help a freind, by abandoning them and letting them deal with their own sh..., but you knew this already. Russians did it to Serbia a number of times before.
When time comes to vote on the new resolution giving Kosova independence this kind of scenario is probably expected.

I guess its just one super power in the world after all.
Cheers

Belgrade does not have a hard line position. In no way imaginable does Serbia have a hard line position. They will not give away 15% of its territory. No Country On Earth Ever Would. Never. They have been favoring the most wide ranging autonomy imaginable.

dardan, you are speaking unintelligently. Give Kosovo to Albania... ? What would Albania do with it, the worst country in Europe? Wow, its the middle ages again for Albania and Kosovo

Art, we all had enuf of the usual fanfare, about victims and criminals.

No sane person (living on this
planet, just to use your rhetoric) whould buy such arguments any more.

You have your own country, and its called "Albania", or am i wrong?

What has this country accomplished, besides giving
all those immigrants to Greece
and boosting the crime rate
at unprecedent levels?

Why should any kind of a new albanian state be different?

Ofcourse Kosovo albanians are in better condition than those
of albania proper, but thats just a byproduct of their long
co-existence with the Yugoslavs.

I'd say, it is time that the sane albanians begin to speak
their minds, and try to develop within serbia.

Just like the Greek majority of Northern Epirus (now southern albania) should try to develop within albania.

We wouldn't want any village
in the balkans to be its own
state with a UN seat???
Do we? Ofcourse that would mean more votes in favor of USA, but USA's credibility is
under doubt nowadays.

To Art,
If democracy about majority rule, then don't forget that the population of Kosovo province of Serbia is a minority of the over-all population of Serbia. You do the math. Get the demographics of the country and legal aspects of sovereignty right and one day you might end up with a legitimate argument that can stand up to the scrutiny of even a 5 year old child.

If you want majority rule, then you can have no problem with the Serbs because they are the majority population of Serbia, of which Kosovo is part.

so... also let Kosovo-Serb proclaim their independence too in North Kosovo if the majority is the key for independence because they are majority in North Kosovo.

Dear James
Hardly ever read a more pseudo-informed comment than yours, unless, of course, from self-assigned Kosovan historians who claim Kosovo was Albanian in 3000 BC or that Kosovo is awaiting a surge in international investments or prosperity or Western style democracy. But that, at least, is for the odd pages and doesn't ask for a serious comment.
World powers will clash over any piece of land, irrespective of its economic or cultural importance, which, of course, are relative concepts. Viewed from the vantage point of super-powers, it's always an assertion of their ability to exert power and influence. So, for example, for Russia to truely show its vigor and ability to directly pursue its own interests, Russia will in any case use the possibility to demonstrate its increased power not only in spite but because of U.S. opposition. (What kind of marker would you need to show you have changed?)
But if that means they will make use of their veto right at the UN council, remains to be seen. If Putin thinks he is too weak, Russia won't veto. But guess what, would you subscribe to that idea so easily?
The question is if Russia is yet strong enough to oppose the U.S. and some E.U. countries. And if yes, they will do whatever to obstruct them. A slap in the face is a slap in the face. Be sure that Putin has long waited to make use of Judo tactics in international politics, not just at home.
(Clarification on the term "clash" may be needed as well. It denotes "opposition" and not necessarily "war". However, an "armed clash", not a full-fledged war - "war" is a speech-act concept - may be in the offing, between hard-core Kosovans and Unmik. Preparations are already ongoing, on both sides, if you should care.)
As to your suggestion that Serbia shouldn't have taken part in the status discussions, I am amazed that such considerations are possible at all.
It's Serbian territory in the first place, irrespective of who owned this land first. Which country wouldn't oppose the idea that part of its land should be simply ripped off. Wouldn't Kosovo-Albanians oppose the idea that the northern part of "their" country should be integrated into Serbia? Or wouldn't the U.K. try to have a say when Northern Ireland would be integrated into Ireland. (James, I suppose you are from Wales which long ago has stopped caring for anything more than drinking English beer.) But you want Serbia out of such discussions. Go home. Not even the U.S. suggested that.
But, maybe, you have been sucked into the argument of Richard Holbrooke, and some U.S. undertakers that Kosovo is a special situation that has nothing to do with all that happened before in the history of humankind and, thus, special measures are allowed, i.e. excluding Serbia from the talks and giving the Albanians their own state just like that.

Power, to remind you, shifts permanently and, quickly. And what today looks like a sure bet, may change quite suddenly.

The U.S. is touting its support for Kosovo, not for Kosovo's sake, but as an attempt to show the world how much power it can wield in some areas of international politics. (They can't do much when it comes to Chinese foreign reserves or Chines oil investments in central Africa or Russian support for Iran.)
Should then some think tanks, however, consider the possibility that it was time for the U.S. to change their geopolitical outlook and seek a different route to pursue its interest, Kosovo might simply fail to be high on the agenda, or Kosovo might just be described as a center of terrorism. There are plenty of opportunities. And truth, rest assured, is the least problem.
Unless President Bush makes a clear statement (when did he last officially comment on Kosovo?), nothing is decided.
Stay tuned for another chapter in the cynical world politics and how the Kosovan dream of independence will burst, very soon. Or do you think Mr. Holbrooke is a visionary or fortuneteller?

"How some Serbian people could think that they would persuade 2 millions Albanians into being ruled by Belgrade?"

I have to remind you that you are living in Serbia!

When Putin, gave out a strong message in Munich it would seem that that hint had been ignored by Ahtisaari when formulating a proposal. However, we shall see how this pans out but it is very clear already that such a proposal is "futile & counterproductive" a simple Njet is easily achieved as will be bu dui (negation in Chinese) - something that was done just recently in the UNSC (12th Jan) when a US & UK proposal backfired!!!
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=21228&Cr=myanmar&Cr1

Kosovo is a part of Serbia and should remain a part of Serbia. For whatever happens within Serbia, as a sovereign state, it ultimately must be the one by itself to decide whether Kosovo is to remain a part of Serbia or not. But Serbia must also accomodate the Albanian majority living in Kosovo in some way as well. But I do not think of this as radical theology as some may very well think of it. For if the growing Mexican population (already near majority status in California) in the fifth largest economy on Earth, California, decided to hold an election to become an independent state, because they feel that California is an extension of Mexico and so is the natural territory of the Mexican people, then how would the international community see of it to accomodate them? Let's just say that Mr. Martti Ahtisaari probably wouldn't have much of a say on the matter. I could go on through to more examples but it's futile really.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, Serbia must comply with the UN and with Richard Holbrooke for its own sake in my personal judgment. Although this assessment may seem paradoxical, I do think that the Kosovo issue only hampers the progression of the Serbian economy and the well-being of the average Serbian citizen...something that is, in my view, an extremely important issue. Thus, Serbia has to live with the fact that it has no voice on this matter and the nation simply must make the best of what the current situation is bringing to it. That is, Kosovo will be pushed to become independent by the international community and that's simply the way of it. No, I do not wish to concede that Serbia should give up and give away its own territory, but I will say that focusing on how to help the nation long-term is more productive. Given this, then, since Kosovo is clearly in the hands of the UN, Serbia should let the UN decide what it may decide in order for the important relations that Serbia may have with other nations of the UN to not become lost. And, in turn, if the Serbian economy rises, if the average standard of living of the average Serbian citizen rises, and if Serbia commits to strong relations with the Western powers, then I would contend that Kosovo would in some way then ask for a share of that prosperity.

The economy, man, is so vitally imporatant. In fact, it is probably THE most imporant factor in winning clout amongst such organizations as the UN in contemporary diplomacy, in my view. I would argue that to win future issues on Serbia's behalf, the economy must be strong. It simply has to be. Because "if you've got the money, I've got the time" is how the old saying goes. And the Kosovo issue adequately, in my view, explains how the international community rarely glances over the importance that Kosovo has for the Serbian people (because Serbia has no clout within the UN) with the sole intention to solve the issue just for the sake of putting an end to it.

Where do you live? Where do you see these terrorists you are claiming. If US, Germany, France, GB, and other countries supports Kosova independence do you think they are supporting terrorists? Stop this infelicitous propaganda, and try at least now to establish good relationship with your south neighbor Kosova, because this is your last chance(Albert Giovani)

Albanians in Serbia have had more rights then any minority in any other country. Not only do they not know Serbian they established their own universities, schools and cultural centers. If this is not freedom then I do not know what is. The issue is that Albanians had always had the idea of a Greater Albania and they would never be happy living under Serbs, no matter how much freedom they have. Albanians simply did/do not want to integrate themselves within Serbia. That is the issue here. The international community should force albanians to integrate with serbs so that Kosovo would trully be a multi ethnic region within Serbia. Both sides have suffered and anyone that says that one side is at fault is just pouring propaganda into this site.

Did we already forget that the same country who is claiming its territory lost all the wars in the 90's? Starting with Slovenia and ending with Kosovo. Im my view, Serbia doesn't even deserve to have the territory that has remained to them, excluding Kosovo. The serbs should be thankful that we didn't invade them too since they lost the war they started with all its surounding member states.

Furthermore, Kosovo is and will be our landmark of our US military presents in the balkans for the next 50years. Military Camp Bondsteel is the largest US military camp outside of the United States. Therefor, this whole debacle over Kosovo's independence is only to proceed this issue legally, however, if in any case these proceedings shall fail, Kosovo will become independet whether any of you out there like it or not.

Serbia is offering to Kosovo something that they had and was taken just with one meeting of Assembly of Serbia (Remember 1989) and hence most voices from western countries say that there is no way back to history. By the way it is the wish of 2 milion people (or terrorists according to statements from Belgrade) not be part of Serbia in any form.

I wonder why someone who has veto right has to leave the SC meeting when it could use its right to not put the topic in the table?

+/- you are right, indeed power shifts, but the shift you are hopping is not going to happen any time soon. Just keep on hoping, some day it may happen but by then you and me will not be on this earth to debate it.

However let me put you back to the Present. It seems to me that you would prefer an exodus of 2 million Kosovar Albanians before a lasting solution to the conflict. The only way Serbia can hold on to Kosova is by completing what it had failed on 1999. Anyone that thinks that after what went on in Kosova you can have Kosovars to accept to be under Serbia is really delusional and no matter what solution you propose to keep Serbia and Kosova together that solution would only create problems for both and both will be stuck in "middle ages" again (dude not even the most moderates and liberals of Kosovar society will accept something like this and lets not talk about the hardliners).

How bad a solution to keep the two together is? Well, you only need to look at Bosnia, after genocide in Srebrenica (just to mention only one place here, but there are more though), peace accord in Dayton came which resulted in creation of an entity like RS that never in the history of that region existed, and further more that was a product of massive campaign of ethnic cleansing like the case of Srebrenica and after so many years of international oversight and investments, Bosnia does not function now way near a viable country. Do you want Serbia to have the same fate?

It is in the interest of Serbia and then in the interest of Kosovar Serbs so that Kosova is recognized as an independent country. Serbia should stay away from its aggressive policies towards Kosova and allow Kosovar Serbs and Kosovar Albanians to solve their issues. They did that before Milosevic's time and certainly can do it now. The old powers (except USA) gave Kosova against the wishes of its people to Serbia in 1912 (according to many historians based on the countries that made up these powers back then) . Today a new world order is taking it back and is giving it to its own people. As for Putins judo slap, all I can say is that the tougher he speaks the more embarrassed he is going to look in the end.

This is what Robert Gates, Defence Secretary had to say about Putins speech in Munich

"As an old cold warrior, one of yesterday’s speeches almost filled me with nostalgia for a less complex time. ... Almost.”
....

“And, I guess, old spies have a habit of blunt speaking. However, I have been to re-education camp — spending four and half years as a university president and dealing with faculty.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/world/europe/12gates.html?ex=1328936400&en=cf8ef5060f540090&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

This tells plenty of what US diplomats and policy makers think about this guy.

More threats Albert! Always with the threats from the Albanians on this site. The theme with you guys is we'll only be nice to the Serbs in Kosovo if we get independence; however, if we don't, then don't blame us if we are forced to act like animals like we did in March 2004.

This kind of rhetoric and Holbrooke's statements really put your people and positions in a positive light. Good luck with that!

Phil or whoever

do not try and compare albanians in kosovo with immigrants in California or any other country.

K. albanians have been living in kosovo for many centruries. They did NOT migrate from Albania in the last 50 years during as serbs claim.

I can understand serbs being unhappy and opposing the inevitable independence of kosovo, but plese, do not lie and try to spread propaganda. enough of the old islamic terrorist / mafia / crime retoric. You obviously never have been in Kosovo.

No doubt that kosovo has problems, but its nowhere near as bad as some people claim.

I think its important that whoever comments on sthe status should state if they have ever been in Kosovo, and how long for.

Kate?

es - you comment made me luagh! "Albanians in Serbia have had more rights then any minority in any other country."
- where you trying to be sarcastic?!

Hi James
I didn't suggest that Kosovans will have to leave their homes so that Serbia can rule this province again.

It's neither for the Kosovans nor the Serbs to decide what will happen to this province; it's a pure power gamble between the super powers.

[Had international law played any role in this conflict - as opposed to super power bullying - there would be no question whatsoever that Kosovo is a Serbian province with no right to session and it would be Serbia's duty to live up to European standards and protect the rights of minorities and find a peaceful solution. But it always takes two to tango, right?

And I agree that Kosovans and Serbs don't mingle well at this point in time. But even that can change again, when history will be rewritten, finding out that 4000 BC Serbians and Albanians played basket ball in front of a cave, suggesting that the concept of history is as arbitrary as anything else.

But the U.S. decided to support the Kosovan cause and attack Serbia and breach every international convention, veiling its real intent, to slap Russia, behind terms such as "humanitarian intervention", while at the same time funding the KLA.

The move to push into Kosovo was, in the first place, aimed at weakening Russia, not Serbia. And it was aimed to increase the status of the U.S. not Kosovo.

Having an air base in Kosovo is as fun as having an air base in Cuba, right Mr. Clark?. But I guess the Russians will have their say here too.

That's just to remind you that I look at the case from a geopolitical point of view rather than looking at the best possible option, which, unfortunately, doesn't exist.]

But to cut a long story short, Kosovans won't receive the sort of independence they wished for so long, as Russia WILL have its say one way or the other, and this will trigger the chain of events which Mr. Holbrooke described succinctly, otherwise there would have been no need for him to talk at all.

To Tom O'Donoghue
So what you'r saying that if Northern Ireland will decide to claim indipendence from UK and join Ireland, you will have problem with it?
I think you'r not Irish but only a serb who is trying to show that they are not helpless in the world.

"Wes Clark", Serbia didn't have a war with Slovenia. This is just one of the many myths of the whole Yugoslav saga perpertuated by the Western Media.

As is the autonomy of Kosovo betabe. The autonomy wasn't taken away, but the nature of it was changed as Kosovo could block anything that the Serbian assembly wanted to do. The consitituional changes were passed by the Assemblies of Serbia and Kosovo as required. The Federal assembly also passed a resolution supporting the changes and the Consitutional Court reviewed them and did not find them unconsitutional.

well, relax boys..

Mr. Churkin himself has told that he didn´t leave the UN-meeting in a "hasty" way...

even if you would love to believe that the Russians are helpless and have no power...

relax, I would adivise...

and to the new poster from Croatia, torcia-for-ever,
don´t worry, nothing is decide d yet, so you can stay a little bit and wait, until you can give your interpretations about the Russians, since they still haven´t given any final answer, even if things are indicating that some Albanians will have some headache in the near future...

just let´s see what future brings...

Why do you Serbs constantly keep hitting Albania because of your anger of losing Kosovo. And I am referring to you Frank. Have you ever been to Albania, sir? I see Serbs frequently try to put Albania by referring to their 43 billion GDP puchasing power againts Albania's 19 billion. Yes, Albania is poorer according to those numbers. However, Albania's population is also only 3 million camparing to Serbia's 9. So, if you devide that per capita, you'll realise that Albania is a lot better off than Serbia. All you'll have to do is compare current Tirana to Belgrade, and you'll see that Serbia is still back there in the nineties.

By the way, Albania is a different country, if your quarrel is with Kosovo, than, it's a mean spiritted to try to blamish Albania's reputation.

James,

"peace accord in Dayton (ahtisaari) came which resulted in creation of an entity like RS (Kosovar, Dardania or whatevernext'ar) that never in the history of that region existed, and further more that was a product of massive campaign of ethnic cleansing like the case of Srebrenica (Pristina) and after so many years of international oversight and investments, Bosnia (WhatEverYouWantToCallItNext'ar) does not function now way near a viable country"


Please read your argument (with my alternative) and realise that the comparison is with a independent "Kosovar" that has never existed and would be a even greater haven for crime, drugs and sex trade then it already is in this failed intervention by the US & UK - but then some never learn until it is too late - opps did someone mention Iraq - what a success!

Princip,
Your comparison just simple doesn’t add up the reality on the ground. And you know why? Please spare me the efforts of typing and listing some of the most heinous crimes committed on the last century comparable only to the Nazi crimes against Jewish people in Europe. Anyway I plan to give you some tips here

1) Kosovar Albanians have never killed 8000 Serb men of ages 65-13 in Srebrenica style. On contrary they were exposed to a Srebrencia ethnic cleansing e.g. Meja, Izbica Obria, Racak and Prekaz among few villages where men 13-65 were summed and executed no questions asked
2) I don’t recall finding any mass grave around Prishtina with Serbs killed by Kosovar Albanians. Do you recall any such finding? On the other hand there are many mass graves located across Serbia with bodies of the innocent Kosovar civilians that were kill by the Serb paramilitary, regular military, regular police and Special Forces police. And on top of that, as if that was not enough, trucks and freezers have floated of the Danube river containing bodies of the innocent Kosovar civilians. Tell the world why would someone go at such length as to hide the bodies of their victims? Common Princip put your logic to it.
3) Kosova is not an entity created out of ethnic cleansing, furthermore its current population mix in no way it can be attributed to ethic cleansing that RS is associated with (and lets not get here on 1974 Yugoslav constitution where Kosova is named as integral part of Yugoslavia, I am emphasizing here Yugoslavia not Serbia)
4) As far as heaven for drugs and terrorists, don’t blame Kosova for that, you know very well what Serbia is being though off lately (articles in B92 speak about that a lot). In the end of the day it is Serbia that is hiding world sough criminals like Karadzic and Mladic. (clean up your mess at home and then start pointing finger at others)

Some others yet post things about legality of this process and that it is illegal to take a piece of land out of a sovereign country. That is true in general, and I agree with this, however what mechanism is there that will prevent the people of a region or territory from being exposed to campaign of physical extermination, similar to the one Kosovar Albanians were exposed? Is there a mechanism to undo the crimes, to repair lost lives and wealth? Is there a mechanism to restore everything to normality? So what was legal about what Serb government did in Kosova (for the sake of argument we’ll stop here only during the 90’s) from 1990-1999? How UN should have acted in order so its actions are deemed legal?

Princip instead of debating your point you have attempted to equalize the victim and the perpetrator.
And lastly Iraq is a whole different issue and we are not debating it here.

Churkin is explaining himself!!! Hmmm I though he does not need to do so ... an interesting turn of events

Unfortunately for Serbia what the USA wants the USA gets. Too bad for everyone else. If Kosovo becomes independant what is going to stop other nationalites in other countries doing the same. Half of me says NO.
The other half says Serbia get rid of Kosovo. Keep the
areas in the north that are mainly Serbs and let Kosovo look after themselves. Let the rest of Europe or Albania worry about them. Serbia than should concentrate on bringing the
war criminals to justice This will give them good standing in the international community.
Try to recover some of the millions Milosevic stole from you and get the economy back on track. Serbia was once the envy of the East and can be once again. I would hate to see my country
divided up but I think Serbia will be made to pay for Milosevic war.

James Wrote
"Some others yet post things about legality of this process and that it is illegal to take a piece of land out of a sovereign country. That is true in general, and I agree with this, however what mechanism is there that will prevent the people of a region or territory from being exposed to campaign of physical extermination, similar to the one Kosovar Albanians were exposed? Is there a mechanism to undo the crimes, to repair lost lives and wealth? Is there a mechanism to restore everything to normality? So what was legal about what Serb government did in Kosova (for the sake of argument we’ll stop here only during the 90’s) from 1990-1999? How UN should have acted in order so its actions are deemed legal? "

The exact same question should be asked of the KLA.As is widely known and reported, they initiated a lot of attacks upon the police and Army from no provocation.

Your statement can only make sense once the whole picture is taken into account, not parts in isolation.

In my opinion there is no more room for negotiations.
I wonder if Belgrade think that time is by its side.
Everything is by Albanian side.
How some Serbian people could think that they would persuade 2 millions Albanians into being ruled by Belgrade?

Massimo - Nobody thinks that 2 million Albanians can be ruled by Belgrade. Serbia is offering autonomy to the province.
The 2m people that you speak of still live within Serbian boundaries, whether you find that distasteful or not. And I'm sure that many of them would rather live peaceful lives in an autonomous province than be terrorised by the criminal elements which currently have far too much power in the 'protectorate'.

I'd say, *everything* is on Serbia's side.

There is no viable investment (read exploitation) plans by *any* western/asian country
on any form of albanian Kosovo.

The west is doomed to leave kosovo to its fate.
The only country that has the will to save kosovo from its own problems (mafia/corruption/underdevelopment)
is Serbia.

That's the way it has been,
and will always be.

Albanians with common sense seeking for a better future know that but are just afraid to declare in public.

Give Kosovo a chance!!!!
Give it back to the Serbs.

before even we go further Massimo, I want to clarify something to you and other that have your opinon.
There are three things that create a state:
1. Territory - We have with borders and bounduries since 1999 very clear from Serbia
2. Population - 2 million as you mentuioned already,
3. Soverighnity - we have since 1999 secured from UNMIK whch is on it final phase of transtion this year from UN Security Counsil.

p.s. Massimo you can contact your italian office in Prishtina for further details if you need, they know this better........

Ciao from Kosovo

Kate - You're wrong. The Kosovar Albanians will settle for nothing less than independence. Kosovo was lost in 1999 and I think, behind closed doors, Serbians will be glad to be rid of it.

"World powers clash over Kosovo" I just simply cannot believe this. Deja vu all over again. The Serb political elite, and even Serb media, are so much embroiled and engulfed by the past that they cannot see a fly in present of their nose. Titles like these serve only one purpose and that is to create and keep a fake impression that Serbia and Kosova matters and that because of Kosova somehow, there is bound to be some friction between world powers aka G. Princip and World War I.

I am appalled that even after 1999 when NATO not only defied Russia, openly, but it even bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade politicians, reporters, parties and posters in this site don't understand that there will be no clash, not friction and absolutely no escalation of any sort in the relations of the World powers. People 1999 was only 8 years ago, not 600, 500 or 400 years ago for that matter. We should remember and learn something. Kosova will become an independent country whether Russia likes it or not. Couple of months ago Russia talked about a veto, then it switched talking about a solution agreeable by both parties and now they have switched and talk about resumption of negotiations.

Can't you all see that these guys are only looking to get something out of this for their own interests? In the end I am very much afraid that Serbs in Kosova will loose everything. Serbia deserves what it will get but not the Serbs of Kosova. Kosovar Serbs are being played and duped by the very country which is supposed to represent them during negotiations.

If this negotiation process has a flaw I believe that its flaw was that Kosovar Serbs were not allowed to participate themselves and negotiate a deal with Kosovar Albanians. Serbia should have not been allowed to talk about Kosova, they lost the war in 1999, signed Kumanovo agreement and they were out ever since, and should and will stay out.

The negotiations process should have been between Kosovar Serbs and Kosovar Albanians. This way a fair solution would have been found, and what is even more important a path towards reconciliation between these two could have been opened. In the end these two will have to live side by side and not Serbia. Serbia with its current stance is only fueling problems and distrust and hopes for a major escalation for the worst in situation in Kosova.

Kate

Where do you live? Where do you see these terrorists you are claiming. If US, Germany, France, GB, and other countries supports Kosova independence do you think they are supporting terrorists? Stop this infelicitous propaganda, and try at least now to establish good relationship with your south neighbor Kosova, because this is your last chance.

The broke down US empire throws stones into it's glass house. The years of the drunken Eltsin are over. Russia will fight for the interests of its allies. USA will need get used to this.

"Ahilleas" we don't need anybody to take care of us. We will build our country. If you think that every nation needs some another nation to take care of it let start with Serbia giving it to Rusia or Gana for example.

Kosvo has had enough,if kosovo once agin is left under the serbian rule than the region will face a lot of problems.The only solution is independence and later on joining to its trunk Albania.

Give Kosovo back to the Serbs?

We all know what happened and we all know what Serbs are going to do if Kosovo is given back to the Serbs. Furthermore why should Kosovo be given back to the Serbs? Isn't Democracy about majority rule? How could a minority control the majority? I thought Serbia is now democratic, yet I thought wrong.

You cannot set a criminal free, thus you cannot give the victim back to the criminal.

I hope you get my point.

Ahilleas

"Albanians with common sense seeking for a better future know that but are just afraid to declare in public. " - I can assure that no albanian with common sense or not, wants to remain within serbia.

And believe me we expect no support or sympathy from greeks, whose racists view towards albanians were clearly highlighted in the video that emerged recently.

As an Irishman who has visited Serbia a number of times and who will be back within a few months, I would like to make a few comments regarding the proposed independence of Kosovo. here in Ireland we know the results of the forced partition of our country. As a result of centuries of British rule and landgrabbing, we found ourselves with a British majority in the North-East of our country. As part of the settlement of our War of Independence (1918-1921), our country was partitioned with the six counties of the North-East remaining under British authority. The result was several decades of sectarian rule and constant descrimination against the Irish minority in this mini-state. The situation exploded in the late sixties with the emergence of the IRA and led to thirty years of civil strife. My point is that the international community should think twice and be very, very careful before imposing partition on the Serbian people. It never works.

"Russian Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin stormed out of the UN Security Council regular session Monday," after having taken off his shoe and banged on the table with it.

The "Serbia lost Kosovo in 1999" argument is a false one as UN Security council resolution 1244 clearly states:

"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act [...]"

And as Serbia is the successor state to the FRY, nothing can legally be changed until there is a new UNSC resolution.

Very unconstructive aproach by mr. Churkin when it comes to helping the Serbian cause.
I guess that time has come when Russians start to turn their backs to Serbians.

It clearly shows that Russia at this moment does not want to make enemies with USA and EU, so the easiest way to please both sides is by abandoning the meating. This is exactly how you don't help a freind, by abandoning them and letting them deal with their own sh..., but you knew this already. Russians did it to Serbia a number of times before.
When time comes to vote on the new resolution giving Kosova independence this kind of scenario is probably expected.

I guess its just one super power in the world after all.
Cheers

Belgrade does not have a hard line position. In no way imaginable does Serbia have a hard line position. They will not give away 15% of its territory. No Country On Earth Ever Would. Never. They have been favoring the most wide ranging autonomy imaginable.

dardan, you are speaking unintelligently. Give Kosovo to Albania... ? What would Albania do with it, the worst country in Europe? Wow, its the middle ages again for Albania and Kosovo

Art, we all had enuf of the usual fanfare, about victims and criminals.

No sane person (living on this
planet, just to use your rhetoric) whould buy such arguments any more.

You have your own country, and its called "Albania", or am i wrong?

What has this country accomplished, besides giving
all those immigrants to Greece
and boosting the crime rate
at unprecedent levels?

Why should any kind of a new albanian state be different?

Ofcourse Kosovo albanians are in better condition than those
of albania proper, but thats just a byproduct of their long
co-existence with the Yugoslavs.

I'd say, it is time that the sane albanians begin to speak
their minds, and try to develop within serbia.

Just like the Greek majority of Northern Epirus (now southern albania) should try to develop within albania.

We wouldn't want any village
in the balkans to be its own
state with a UN seat???
Do we? Ofcourse that would mean more votes in favor of USA, but USA's credibility is
under doubt nowadays.

To Art,
If democracy about majority rule, then don't forget that the population of Kosovo province of Serbia is a minority of the over-all population of Serbia. You do the math. Get the demographics of the country and legal aspects of sovereignty right and one day you might end up with a legitimate argument that can stand up to the scrutiny of even a 5 year old child.

If you want majority rule, then you can have no problem with the Serbs because they are the majority population of Serbia, of which Kosovo is part.

so... also let Kosovo-Serb proclaim their independence too in North Kosovo if the majority is the key for independence because they are majority in North Kosovo.

Dear James
Hardly ever read a more pseudo-informed comment than yours, unless, of course, from self-assigned Kosovan historians who claim Kosovo was Albanian in 3000 BC or that Kosovo is awaiting a surge in international investments or prosperity or Western style democracy. But that, at least, is for the odd pages and doesn't ask for a serious comment.
World powers will clash over any piece of land, irrespective of its economic or cultural importance, which, of course, are relative concepts. Viewed from the vantage point of super-powers, it's always an assertion of their ability to exert power and influence. So, for example, for Russia to truely show its vigor and ability to directly pursue its own interests, Russia will in any case use the possibility to demonstrate its increased power not only in spite but because of U.S. opposition. (What kind of marker would you need to show you have changed?)
But if that means they will make use of their veto right at the UN council, remains to be seen. If Putin thinks he is too weak, Russia won't veto. But guess what, would you subscribe to that idea so easily?
The question is if Russia is yet strong enough to oppose the U.S. and some E.U. countries. And if yes, they will do whatever to obstruct them. A slap in the face is a slap in the face. Be sure that Putin has long waited to make use of Judo tactics in international politics, not just at home.
(Clarification on the term "clash" may be needed as well. It denotes "opposition" and not necessarily "war". However, an "armed clash", not a full-fledged war - "war" is a speech-act concept - may be in the offing, between hard-core Kosovans and Unmik. Preparations are already ongoing, on both sides, if you should care.)
As to your suggestion that Serbia shouldn't have taken part in the status discussions, I am amazed that such considerations are possible at all.
It's Serbian territory in the first place, irrespective of who owned this land first. Which country wouldn't oppose the idea that part of its land should be simply ripped off. Wouldn't Kosovo-Albanians oppose the idea that the northern part of "their" country should be integrated into Serbia? Or wouldn't the U.K. try to have a say when Northern Ireland would be integrated into Ireland. (James, I suppose you are from Wales which long ago has stopped caring for anything more than drinking English beer.) But you want Serbia out of such discussions. Go home. Not even the U.S. suggested that.
But, maybe, you have been sucked into the argument of Richard Holbrooke, and some U.S. undertakers that Kosovo is a special situation that has nothing to do with all that happened before in the history of humankind and, thus, special measures are allowed, i.e. excluding Serbia from the talks and giving the Albanians their own state just like that.

Power, to remind you, shifts permanently and, quickly. And what today looks like a sure bet, may change quite suddenly.

The U.S. is touting its support for Kosovo, not for Kosovo's sake, but as an attempt to show the world how much power it can wield in some areas of international politics. (They can't do much when it comes to Chinese foreign reserves or Chines oil investments in central Africa or Russian support for Iran.)
Should then some think tanks, however, consider the possibility that it was time for the U.S. to change their geopolitical outlook and seek a different route to pursue its interest, Kosovo might simply fail to be high on the agenda, or Kosovo might just be described as a center of terrorism. There are plenty of opportunities. And truth, rest assured, is the least problem.
Unless President Bush makes a clear statement (when did he last officially comment on Kosovo?), nothing is decided.
Stay tuned for another chapter in the cynical world politics and how the Kosovan dream of independence will burst, very soon. Or do you think Mr. Holbrooke is a visionary or fortuneteller?

"How some Serbian people could think that they would persuade 2 millions Albanians into being ruled by Belgrade?"

I have to remind you that you are living in Serbia!

When Putin, gave out a strong message in Munich it would seem that that hint had been ignored by Ahtisaari when formulating a proposal. However, we shall see how this pans out but it is very clear already that such a proposal is "futile & counterproductive" a simple Njet is easily achieved as will be bu dui (negation in Chinese) - something that was done just recently in the UNSC (12th Jan) when a US & UK proposal backfired!!!
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=21228&Cr=myanmar&Cr1

Kosovo is a part of Serbia and should remain a part of Serbia. For whatever happens within Serbia, as a sovereign state, it ultimately must be the one by itself to decide whether Kosovo is to remain a part of Serbia or not. But Serbia must also accomodate the Albanian majority living in Kosovo in some way as well. But I do not think of this as radical theology as some may very well think of it. For if the growing Mexican population (already near majority status in California) in the fifth largest economy on Earth, California, decided to hold an election to become an independent state, because they feel that California is an extension of Mexico and so is the natural territory of the Mexican people, then how would the international community see of it to accomodate them? Let's just say that Mr. Martti Ahtisaari probably wouldn't have much of a say on the matter. I could go on through to more examples but it's futile really.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, Serbia must comply with the UN and with Richard Holbrooke for its own sake in my personal judgment. Although this assessment may seem paradoxical, I do think that the Kosovo issue only hampers the progression of the Serbian economy and the well-being of the average Serbian citizen...something that is, in my view, an extremely important issue. Thus, Serbia has to live with the fact that it has no voice on this matter and the nation simply must make the best of what the current situation is bringing to it. That is, Kosovo will be pushed to become independent by the international community and that's simply the way of it. No, I do not wish to concede that Serbia should give up and give away its own territory, but I will say that focusing on how to help the nation long-term is more productive. Given this, then, since Kosovo is clearly in the hands of the UN, Serbia should let the UN decide what it may decide in order for the important relations that Serbia may have with other nations of the UN to not become lost. And, in turn, if the Serbian economy rises, if the average standard of living of the average Serbian citizen rises, and if Serbia commits to strong relations with the Western powers, then I would contend that Kosovo would in some way then ask for a share of that prosperity.

The economy, man, is so vitally imporatant. In fact, it is probably THE most imporant factor in winning clout amongst such organizations as the UN in contemporary diplomacy, in my view. I would argue that to win future issues on Serbia's behalf, the economy must be strong. It simply has to be. Because "if you've got the money, I've got the time" is how the old saying goes. And the Kosovo issue adequately, in my view, explains how the international community rarely glances over the importance that Kosovo has for the Serbian people (because Serbia has no clout within the UN) with the sole intention to solve the issue just for the sake of putting an end to it.

Where do you live? Where do you see these terrorists you are claiming. If US, Germany, France, GB, and other countries supports Kosova independence do you think they are supporting terrorists? Stop this infelicitous propaganda, and try at least now to establish good relationship with your south neighbor Kosova, because this is your last chance(Albert Giovani)

Albanians in Serbia have had more rights then any minority in any other country. Not only do they not know Serbian they established their own universities, schools and cultural centers. If this is not freedom then I do not know what is. The issue is that Albanians had always had the idea of a Greater Albania and they would never be happy living under Serbs, no matter how much freedom they have. Albanians simply did/do not want to integrate themselves within Serbia. That is the issue here. The international community should force albanians to integrate with serbs so that Kosovo would trully be a multi ethnic region within Serbia. Both sides have suffered and anyone that says that one side is at fault is just pouring propaganda into this site.

Did we already forget that the same country who is claiming its territory lost all the wars in the 90's? Starting with Slovenia and ending with Kosovo. Im my view, Serbia doesn't even deserve to have the territory that has remained to them, excluding Kosovo. The serbs should be thankful that we didn't invade them too since they lost the war they started with all its surounding member states.

Furthermore, Kosovo is and will be our landmark of our US military presents in the balkans for the next 50years. Military Camp Bondsteel is the largest US military camp outside of the United States. Therefor, this whole debacle over Kosovo's independence is only to proceed this issue legally, however, if in any case these proceedings shall fail, Kosovo will become independet whether any of you out there like it or not.

Serbia is offering to Kosovo something that they had and was taken just with one meeting of Assembly of Serbia (Remember 1989) and hence most voices from western countries say that there is no way back to history. By the way it is the wish of 2 milion people (or terrorists according to statements from Belgrade) not be part of Serbia in any form.

I wonder why someone who has veto right has to leave the SC meeting when it could use its right to not put the topic in the table?

+/- you are right, indeed power shifts, but the shift you are hopping is not going to happen any time soon. Just keep on hoping, some day it may happen but by then you and me will not be on this earth to debate it.

However let me put you back to the Present. It seems to me that you would prefer an exodus of 2 million Kosovar Albanians before a lasting solution to the conflict. The only way Serbia can hold on to Kosova is by completing what it had failed on 1999. Anyone that thinks that after what went on in Kosova you can have Kosovars to accept to be under Serbia is really delusional and no matter what solution you propose to keep Serbia and Kosova together that solution would only create problems for both and both will be stuck in "middle ages" again (dude not even the most moderates and liberals of Kosovar society will accept something like this and lets not talk about the hardliners).

How bad a solution to keep the two together is? Well, you only need to look at Bosnia, after genocide in Srebrenica (just to mention only one place here, but there are more though), peace accord in Dayton came which resulted in creation of an entity like RS that never in the history of that region existed, and further more that was a product of massive campaign of ethnic cleansing like the case of Srebrenica and after so many years of international oversight and investments, Bosnia does not function now way near a viable country. Do you want Serbia to have the same fate?

It is in the interest of Serbia and then in the interest of Kosovar Serbs so that Kosova is recognized as an independent country. Serbia should stay away from its aggressive policies towards Kosova and allow Kosovar Serbs and Kosovar Albanians to solve their issues. They did that before Milosevic's time and certainly can do it now. The old powers (except USA) gave Kosova against the wishes of its people to Serbia in 1912 (according to many historians based on the countries that made up these powers back then) . Today a new world order is taking it back and is giving it to its own people. As for Putins judo slap, all I can say is that the tougher he speaks the more embarrassed he is going to look in the end.

This is what Robert Gates, Defence Secretary had to say about Putins speech in Munich

"As an old cold warrior, one of yesterday’s speeches almost filled me with nostalgia for a less complex time. ... Almost.”
....

“And, I guess, old spies have a habit of blunt speaking. However, I have been to re-education camp — spending four and half years as a university president and dealing with faculty.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/world/europe/12gates.html?ex=1328936400&en=cf8ef5060f540090&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

This tells plenty of what US diplomats and policy makers think about this guy.

More threats Albert! Always with the threats from the Albanians on this site. The theme with you guys is we'll only be nice to the Serbs in Kosovo if we get independence; however, if we don't, then don't blame us if we are forced to act like animals like we did in March 2004.

This kind of rhetoric and Holbrooke's statements really put your people and positions in a positive light. Good luck with that!

Phil or whoever

do not try and compare albanians in kosovo with immigrants in California or any other country.

K. albanians have been living in kosovo for many centruries. They did NOT migrate from Albania in the last 50 years during as serbs claim.

I can understand serbs being unhappy and opposing the inevitable independence of kosovo, but plese, do not lie and try to spread propaganda. enough of the old islamic terrorist / mafia / crime retoric. You obviously never have been in Kosovo.

No doubt that kosovo has problems, but its nowhere near as bad as some people claim.

I think its important that whoever comments on sthe status should state if they have ever been in Kosovo, and how long for.

Kate?

es - you comment made me luagh! "Albanians in Serbia have had more rights then any minority in any other country."
- where you trying to be sarcastic?!

Hi James
I didn't suggest that Kosovans will have to leave their homes so that Serbia can rule this province again.

It's neither for the Kosovans nor the Serbs to decide what will happen to this province; it's a pure power gamble between the super powers.

[Had international law played any role in this conflict - as opposed to super power bullying - there would be no question whatsoever that Kosovo is a Serbian province with no right to session and it would be Serbia's duty to live up to European standards and protect the rights of minorities and find a peaceful solution. But it always takes two to tango, right?

And I agree that Kosovans and Serbs don't mingle well at this point in time. But even that can change again, when history will be rewritten, finding out that 4000 BC Serbians and Albanians played basket ball in front of a cave, suggesting that the concept of history is as arbitrary as anything else.

But the U.S. decided to support the Kosovan cause and attack Serbia and breach every international convention, veiling its real intent, to slap Russia, behind terms such as "humanitarian intervention", while at the same time funding the KLA.

The move to push into Kosovo was, in the first place, aimed at weakening Russia, not Serbia. And it was aimed to increase the status of the U.S. not Kosovo.

Having an air base in Kosovo is as fun as having an air base in Cuba, right Mr. Clark?. But I guess the Russians will have their say here too.

That's just to remind you that I look at the case from a geopolitical point of view rather than looking at the best possible option, which, unfortunately, doesn't exist.]

But to cut a long story short, Kosovans won't receive the sort of independence they wished for so long, as Russia WILL have its say one way or the other, and this will trigger the chain of events which Mr. Holbrooke described succinctly, otherwise there would have been no need for him to talk at all.

To Tom O'Donoghue
So what you'r saying that if Northern Ireland will decide to claim indipendence from UK and join Ireland, you will have problem with it?
I think you'r not Irish but only a serb who is trying to show that they are not helpless in the world.

"Wes Clark", Serbia didn't have a war with Slovenia. This is just one of the many myths of the whole Yugoslav saga perpertuated by the Western Media.

As is the autonomy of Kosovo betabe. The autonomy wasn't taken away, but the nature of it was changed as Kosovo could block anything that the Serbian assembly wanted to do. The consitituional changes were passed by the Assemblies of Serbia and Kosovo as required. The Federal assembly also passed a resolution supporting the changes and the Consitutional Court reviewed them and did not find them unconsitutional.

well, relax boys..

Mr. Churkin himself has told that he didn´t leave the UN-meeting in a "hasty" way...

even if you would love to believe that the Russians are helpless and have no power...

relax, I would adivise...

and to the new poster from Croatia, torcia-for-ever,
don´t worry, nothing is decide d yet, so you can stay a little bit and wait, until you can give your interpretations about the Russians, since they still haven´t given any final answer, even if things are indicating that some Albanians will have some headache in the near future...

just let´s see what future brings...

Why do you Serbs constantly keep hitting Albania because of your anger of losing Kosovo. And I am referring to you Frank. Have you ever been to Albania, sir? I see Serbs frequently try to put Albania by referring to their 43 billion GDP puchasing power againts Albania's 19 billion. Yes, Albania is poorer according to those numbers. However, Albania's population is also only 3 million camparing to Serbia's 9. So, if you devide that per capita, you'll realise that Albania is a lot better off than Serbia. All you'll have to do is compare current Tirana to Belgrade, and you'll see that Serbia is still back there in the nineties.

By the way, Albania is a different country, if your quarrel is with Kosovo, than, it's a mean spiritted to try to blamish Albania's reputation.

James,

"peace accord in Dayton (ahtisaari) came which resulted in creation of an entity like RS (Kosovar, Dardania or whatevernext'ar) that never in the history of that region existed, and further more that was a product of massive campaign of ethnic cleansing like the case of Srebrenica (Pristina) and after so many years of international oversight and investments, Bosnia (WhatEverYouWantToCallItNext'ar) does not function now way near a viable country"


Please read your argument (with my alternative) and realise that the comparison is with a independent "Kosovar" that has never existed and would be a even greater haven for crime, drugs and sex trade then it already is in this failed intervention by the US & UK - but then some never learn until it is too late - opps did someone mention Iraq - what a success!

Princip,
Your comparison just simple doesn’t add up the reality on the ground. And you know why? Please spare me the efforts of typing and listing some of the most heinous crimes committed on the last century comparable only to the Nazi crimes against Jewish people in Europe. Anyway I plan to give you some tips here

1) Kosovar Albanians have never killed 8000 Serb men of ages 65-13 in Srebrenica style. On contrary they were exposed to a Srebrencia ethnic cleansing e.g. Meja, Izbica Obria, Racak and Prekaz among few villages where men 13-65 were summed and executed no questions asked
2) I don’t recall finding any mass grave around Prishtina with Serbs killed by Kosovar Albanians. Do you recall any such finding? On the other hand there are many mass graves located across Serbia with bodies of the innocent Kosovar civilians that were kill by the Serb paramilitary, regular military, regular police and Special Forces police. And on top of that, as if that was not enough, trucks and freezers have floated of the Danube river containing bodies of the innocent Kosovar civilians. Tell the world why would someone go at such length as to hide the bodies of their victims? Common Princip put your logic to it.
3) Kosova is not an entity created out of ethnic cleansing, furthermore its current population mix in no way it can be attributed to ethic cleansing that RS is associated with (and lets not get here on 1974 Yugoslav constitution where Kosova is named as integral part of Yugoslavia, I am emphasizing here Yugoslavia not Serbia)
4) As far as heaven for drugs and terrorists, don’t blame Kosova for that, you know very well what Serbia is being though off lately (articles in B92 speak about that a lot). In the end of the day it is Serbia that is hiding world sough criminals like Karadzic and Mladic. (clean up your mess at home and then start pointing finger at others)

Some others yet post things about legality of this process and that it is illegal to take a piece of land out of a sovereign country. That is true in general, and I agree with this, however what mechanism is there that will prevent the people of a region or territory from being exposed to campaign of physical extermination, similar to the one Kosovar Albanians were exposed? Is there a mechanism to undo the crimes, to repair lost lives and wealth? Is there a mechanism to restore everything to normality? So what was legal about what Serb government did in Kosova (for the sake of argument we’ll stop here only during the 90’s) from 1990-1999? How UN should have acted in order so its actions are deemed legal?

Princip instead of debating your point you have attempted to equalize the victim and the perpetrator.
And lastly Iraq is a whole different issue and we are not debating it here.

Churkin is explaining himself!!! Hmmm I though he does not need to do so ... an interesting turn of events

Unfortunately for Serbia what the USA wants the USA gets. Too bad for everyone else. If Kosovo becomes independant what is going to stop other nationalites in other countries doing the same. Half of me says NO.
The other half says Serbia get rid of Kosovo. Keep the
areas in the north that are mainly Serbs and let Kosovo look after themselves. Let the rest of Europe or Albania worry about them. Serbia than should concentrate on bringing the
war criminals to justice This will give them good standing in the international community.
Try to recover some of the millions Milosevic stole from you and get the economy back on track. Serbia was once the envy of the East and can be once again. I would hate to see my country
divided up but I think Serbia will be made to pay for Milosevic war.

James Wrote
"Some others yet post things about legality of this process and that it is illegal to take a piece of land out of a sovereign country. That is true in general, and I agree with this, however what mechanism is there that will prevent the people of a region or territory from being exposed to campaign of physical extermination, similar to the one Kosovar Albanians were exposed? Is there a mechanism to undo the crimes, to repair lost lives and wealth? Is there a mechanism to restore everything to normality? So what was legal about what Serb government did in Kosova (for the sake of argument we’ll stop here only during the 90’s) from 1990-1999? How UN should have acted in order so its actions are deemed legal? "

The exact same question should be asked of the KLA.As is widely known and reported, they initiated a lot of attacks upon the police and Army from no provocation.

Your statement can only make sense once the whole picture is taken into account, not parts in isolation.