I see some people other here do not read comments at all but they jus like to comment them without understanding them
I ASKED A QUESTION
What is Serbia going to do when Kosovo declares its independence?
Answer if you want, but do not use my question for your “word twisting” campaign.
As you said if they copy what the Serbs did the early 90's what was the result? Lost territory so will be result. NATO returns with Serbia and Russia in tow destroy the KLA which will be cut off from running to albanian or Macedonia to regroup. Liberty or Death yeah right!! Liberty or run to albanian and macedonia asking for a hand out because of some idiots who think the west is there friend. The west only acts when it is to there advantage. So just give them a reason to act and please don't come the forum crying and make sure you tear down the bill clinton moument as well.
If Kosovo use violence, they would just be copying what serbs did in croatia and bosnia in early 90's. In fact, they should understand why the violence would occur.
I love it when you Serbs jump out of your chairs and exclaim: "Oh did that Albanian just threaten violence?" or "Hey was that a threat."
There are no threats here. It's only a matter of fact.
Either liberty or death. That's about as close as possible that I can describe the Albanian position at this point.
That doesn't mean terrorist attacks on the Albanians' parts as you Serbs allude to or even accuse us of. As a matter of fact you accuse us of things that we might do! It is desparate really!
No, the Albanians want nothing short of Independence. You know what, they only want to rule themselves and have NO link with Serbia. Believe me they have tried, for almost 100 years now.
Now since these Albanians will not compromise on anything less than independence and the Serbs will not compromise on anything that mentions independence, then where will this magical RUSSIAN Compromise come from?
If a solution by an outside and impartial body cannot be imposed, then there will never be a solution.
Serbs only blame Ahtisaari of being one sided because they are in denial of their history and the pain they've caused the Balkans.
The way you deal with unprovoked violence is meet it with force. Once the parties understand they will not stand by idle and allow mayhem all will understand clearly. I had an albanian friend once tell me that no one listen unless you pick up a gun. Well it works both ways. Why did Germany send 600 more troops to Kosovo and more to follow from other EU nations they are preparing for violence. Has the palenstians acheieved anything with violence no, and will never either. Would the Serbian forces left Kosovo with out force no, so when the albanian choose to use force do you think the international forces will allwo this no. So back to the drawing board. It gets cold in the winter and russia has the gas piplines for Europe. End of comment.
Avni...
Don't twist the story...You start off with a decent platform... and then you blow it with accusations of Serbia declaring war on Kosovo..I mean, come on...I assumed you were above the age of 30.
Hermon.
You're great with words. You claim not to bring history into the conversation, and then YOU TOO blow it by bringing up stereoptypes..Your ignorance of statements like "Nas Salonica" and "Serbian expansion" are testament that YOUR upbringing isn't exemplary...
I agree....Albanians are probably tense, but let the story speak for itself, and let's see what happens...
It's time to start for all sides to take responsibilty for their actions, serbs and albanians alike. If there would be a situation where albanians resort to violence because of russian veto, then albanians are responsibleand accountable for that violence, clear and simple. People in balkans are like little siblings, just teasing and then blaming each other, then saying "its because he did that" or "she started it".
And if EU and US want to be parents to these kids, they should do more mediating instead of choosing sides, parents don't do that...
I always appreciate it if someone comes up with arguments, or at least tries to do so.
the only thing I would change in your post is: if there are so good means of information about history and other relevant points of argumentation, why then, I repeat it explicitly, why then are you not using them?
why are you claiming to be the descendants of the illyrians if you in fact are not having any connection to them that would be stronger than to the other poeples on the Balkans today?
who is living in a world of myths, actually?
and, ...yes, it is right that the serbian midieval empire reached far to the south on todays greek territory..., but you forget that Serbs and Greeks were equals in this empire, having equal rights, and the serbian Tsar was signing his documents in greek and married a greek princess in order to create a serbian-greek empire. if you ask any Greek today, ask him whether he sees that as a serbian occupation!
you are far from knowing facts, and that´s the problem with the Albanians, claiming to know, but actually being only misguided to the extreme...
I am not angry, reading posts like yours, they are more of an entertaining nature to me.
so, to cut it short: It is YOU who is free to inform himself, if you dare it. use your own brain, and don´t listen to the agitators on the albanian side, who only want you to believe the nonsense of serbian "colonization" in order to control you and to provide an atmosphere of hatred that serves their criminal business-acitivities.
think it over, but do not rely on junk-literature by those Malcolms who write to earn money on your back...
I have even provided albanian sources in one post here, just check my postings of the last weeks and you will find it. if you don´t believe the serbian sources, you will at least believe the albanian ones, will you?
nevertheless, I can say it with a clear conscience, you are more than wrong with your view about Kosovo and it´s history.
A couple of comments.
First to Cedarwood. No, Serbia probably had no reason to commit crimes in Kosovo, but then, neither did the Albanians. I will thank you to mention this in the future the next time you comment on crimes in Kosovo.
Next to Hermon:
Serbia's dreams for expansion, if any at all, died a long time ago. If you are referring to Kosovo then i'm sorry, but Serbia doesn't have dreams for expansion, rather it wishes not to shrink. Albanian dreams of expansion are more than obvious. Not just because of Kosovo, but also Macedonia, Montenegro and South Serbia. That is what all of the conflicts were about.
If the international community caves in to threats of violence, I will eat my hat. For the serbian side it would be the best thing that could happen if there was another kristallnacht, like mars 17 2004. There is every reason in the world to try to stall the decision. During the wait, every albanian act of violence is a gift from heaven for the serbian negotiators.
These comments by Holbrooke are so typical of his ilk. Here's a man who educated himself in the Balkans largely through reading Robert Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts. In fact, the entire Clinton Administration couldn't tell a Hodja from a Hajduk before reading this book. After taking all the stereotypes as factual, and actually believing that the Balkans were a hotbed of tribes enbroiled in ancient hatreds, they sought to be the self-proclaimed saviours of the region, giving everyone democracy, liberty, and blue jeans. One ill-ritten book, and they knew more about Yugoslavia than Tito.
After 1999 Holbrooke and company promised the Albanians in Kosovo everything their dreams could have imagined - their own state, their own army, their own destiny. Yes, after years and years and years of languishing under a Serbian regime that apparently put Stalin's to shame, the "rape of 1912" would finally be rectified. Of course, all these open promises were done under a different international setting:
1. Milosevic was still in power in Belgrade.
2. Yeltsin was stumbling around in the Kremlin
3. U.S. power was unrivaled
4. The US still gave a hoot about the Balkans
Now 7 years later it seems Russia is flexing its muscles, Europe is wavering on a collective committment to inherit all the responsibilities of FADURK, and the independence that was promised to Pristina on a silver platter is about to become watered down and muddied in the bureaucratic debates of compromise and negotiation.
The inhumanity.
Suddenly independence is seeming to come at a heavy price.
But never one to accept responsibility for promising something that could not be delivered, Holbrooke, Albright and the rest will collectively dump blame and responsibility into the laps of others if their own visions were not realized.
Blame Russia? Sure, Russia's three things Holbrooke is not:
1. Authoritarian
2. Non-European
3. Slavic
And so the Albanians, promised some form of self-determination, rightfully protest and begin to lose faith in the international process. Riots break out against the UN, Serbs hunker down in their municipalities, the SRS points the finger at the failure of democracy, Kurti's Self-Determination movement destabilizes the region, and the entire happy-happy Scandinavian-brokered Eurocratic process of negotiation breaks down with everyone wondering what could have happened?
And who do we blame? Simple: Russia, and of course Serbia, for being the Slavic orientalists and disprupting an otherwise perfect experiment in democracy, initially created by Richard Holbrooke, God's answer to Woodrow Wilson.
And this man thinks the Bush Administration is arrogant and hubristic.....
In 2007, who is Holbrooke? He is a retired has been and certainly does not represent the US government. I would be more interested in hearing the US Presidents perspective on Kosovo & Metohija. However, the silence is a good enough message for the Russians to know that the US have got themselves into a trap of their own making both in Kosovo & Metohija and in Iraq! Time is certainly running out for US and this time the Russians & Chinese have the upper hand. One needs only look at the unrecognised Northern Cyprus for an indication of the future of Unilateral, Illegal declarations of a 2nd Albanian state on internationally recognised Serbian territory. The Holbrooke knows this and his filerbustering is a desperate sign that Serbia has a strong hand with its legal & principled stance.
Now that Holbrooke is in a lucrative private practice who is paying his lobbying fees?Maybe he needs to go to Kosovo and put on a riot helmet and engage in crowd control if he is worried about expected violence.Reminds me of a song by the British band the WHO that goes "here comes the new boss same as the old boss"!!!!
Hollbrooke's argument inherently racist. He is saying that the Albanians aren't able to control themselves and if they do go on a rampage, then it will be someone else's fault.
Funny. No judge in a european court would agree with that argument.
Contrary to Hollbrooke, I believe the opposite is true. The supposedly disbanded KLA runs and controls everything. If there is violence, then it is ordered by the KLA leadership, much like Albin Kurtin's group is allowed to run free, receiving only a light 'slap on the wrist' for creating violent situations.
The KLA is doing the Albanians a major disservice and lying to them that 'independence' will fix everything. It won't. So the KLA will still have to find 'someone' to blame.
That 'someone' will be anything non-albanian, so how could any sort of 'standards' for the remaining minority ever being implemented.
Some say that 'rejecting independence is rejecting minority protection'.
Well, how do you reject something that you never had in the first place? So the argument against rejection is clearly just stupid and wrongheaded.
Remember 'Standards before Status'? How & when was this exactly implemented? It wasn't. The 'right words' come easily for the likes of Thaci, but he's been extensively schooled in western PR speak.
His words mean nothing, and the reality on the ground proves that they mean nothing.
The only violence that will break out is backlash from the Albanian extremists and remnants of the KLA who will commit terrorist acts against UNMIK if they do not get independence.
The possibility of violence is a reason FOR postponing independence, not a justification for it. Using the threat of violence as some kind of rationale for independence only bolsters those in the rest of the world who see violence as a solution for their problems and issues. Yes, I understand that maybe its hard for Kosovars to be patient, but if they want to prove to the world that they are politically mature enough to govern themselves and respect the rights of minorities, then they need to take real steps in this direction. Doesn't it bother any of the Albanians here that the International Community has no faith in the stability of Kosovo or the peaceful behavior of the Kosovars? If I were you, I would be highly offended. Its like they're telling you that you're little kids who will throw a big temper tantrum if you don't get your way right now at this moment. Honestly, I don't buy into that, and you shouldn't either. You should be asking to be treated with respect from the International Community. Its BS.
This is not a threat. This is a fact. All smart people like know that albania's patience has come to an end. They cannot buid thier future under this transitory situation. People are expecting to finalize their dream of leaving without the barbaric serbian rule. They expect to building thier own economy, without expecting Beograde to decide for thier future.
They have been pateint for 9 years now trying to respect the international law that would grant them the right to govern themselves on thier own land. Its normal thier patientvce to come to an end. The old serbian trick of dragging things to the infinity will not work this time.
Jovan,
I understand that your serbian upbringing makes you not to believe about the authenticity of the albanians in that region. But try to use your common sense my friend and read a bit more, what other people have to say about us. I wont give you any history lessons because nowadays, who wants to learn has all the means, but just for one moment think, who has an history of invasions and occupation oth other lands., albanians or serbs. Your famous kings reached the Ioanian sea destroying every thing from that ancient illyrian civilization. Are you claiming that piece of earth as your cradle of Serbian civilization too.
You still sing "Nas Salonica". Is that your territory too?
I am sorry to burst your bubble but your dreams for expansion should end here. Basically, thats what Europe is trying to do. get real.
I love when Albanians start with their threats with violence! Whom you gonna attack?UNMIK?NATO troops?Local Serbs?Belgrade?UN HQ in NY?Enlight me please!
and your comment sounds like a threat! do you really wish an armed conflict again? come on, you know for yourself, that you would loose.
violence as a means of politics should be condemned, and not like you do it, be seen as a possibility.
and Mr.Holbrooke can talk as much he wants, if violence breakes out, it will be because the US and UK didn´t send a clear message to the Albanians not to speculate on the use of force again, like in 1999.
let us just see what future brings..
"If the Russians delay or dilute or veto it, then I'm afraid the long pent-up desire of the Albanians in Kosovo for a rapid move toward independence will explode into violence," he said."
Any people (whether Albanian or Serb or other ethinic group) who threaten violence to blackmail the international community must not be rewarded. The UN must be resolute about this for it to have any credibility. And Holbrooke should stop this scare tactic which, ironically, will only hurt the cause of the very people whom he champions. And make de facto partition more likely to become de jure.
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin. Kosovo declare the independence and Serbian minority will lose all beneffits from Ahtisari Plan.
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin.
The Multiethnic Institutions of Kosovo declare the independence, treating the Serb minority as a regular minority, according to EU standards. US recognize the New Kosovo State, followed by France, UK, Germany, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, and the list goes on.
The question comes
What is Serbian going to do then?
Declare war to Kosovo?! Or just march in Kosovo like they did in 1912?
I think the politicians in Serbia will wake up; they will then call back on Ahtisari’s proposal and demand the treatment of the Serb community in Kosovo as a minority with special status
So what if they have reasons, did Serbia had reasons to commit crimes in Kosovo.
I think there will be more SHEDDING OF BLOOD for what Russia should be blamed.
So what if they have reasons, did Serbia had reasons to commit crimes in Kosovo.
I think there will be more SHEDDING OF BLOOD for what Russia should be blamed.
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin.
The Multiethnic Institutions of Kosovo declare the independence, treating the Serb minority as a regular minority, according to EU standards. US recognize the New Kosovo State, followed by France, UK, Germany, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, and the list goes on.
The question comes
What is Serbian going to do then?
Declare war to Kosovo?! Or just march in Kosovo like they did in 1912?
I think the politicians in Serbia will wake up; they will then call back on Ahtisari’s proposal and demand the treatment of the Serb community in Kosovo as a minority with special status
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin. Kosovo declare the independence and Serbian minority will lose all beneffits from Ahtisari Plan.
"If the Russians delay or dilute or veto it, then I'm afraid the long pent-up desire of the Albanians in Kosovo for a rapid move toward independence will explode into violence," he said."
Any people (whether Albanian or Serb or other ethinic group) who threaten violence to blackmail the international community must not be rewarded. The UN must be resolute about this for it to have any credibility. And Holbrooke should stop this scare tactic which, ironically, will only hurt the cause of the very people whom he champions. And make de facto partition more likely to become de jure.
and your comment sounds like a threat! do you really wish an armed conflict again? come on, you know for yourself, that you would loose.
violence as a means of politics should be condemned, and not like you do it, be seen as a possibility.
and Mr.Holbrooke can talk as much he wants, if violence breakes out, it will be because the US and UK didn´t send a clear message to the Albanians not to speculate on the use of force again, like in 1999.
let us just see what future brings..
I love when Albanians start with their threats with violence! Whom you gonna attack?UNMIK?NATO troops?Local Serbs?Belgrade?UN HQ in NY?Enlight me please!
The possibility of violence is a reason FOR postponing independence, not a justification for it. Using the threat of violence as some kind of rationale for independence only bolsters those in the rest of the world who see violence as a solution for their problems and issues. Yes, I understand that maybe its hard for Kosovars to be patient, but if they want to prove to the world that they are politically mature enough to govern themselves and respect the rights of minorities, then they need to take real steps in this direction. Doesn't it bother any of the Albanians here that the International Community has no faith in the stability of Kosovo or the peaceful behavior of the Kosovars? If I were you, I would be highly offended. Its like they're telling you that you're little kids who will throw a big temper tantrum if you don't get your way right now at this moment. Honestly, I don't buy into that, and you shouldn't either. You should be asking to be treated with respect from the International Community. Its BS.
This is not a threat. This is a fact. All smart people like know that albania's patience has come to an end. They cannot buid thier future under this transitory situation. People are expecting to finalize their dream of leaving without the barbaric serbian rule. They expect to building thier own economy, without expecting Beograde to decide for thier future.
They have been pateint for 9 years now trying to respect the international law that would grant them the right to govern themselves on thier own land. Its normal thier patientvce to come to an end. The old serbian trick of dragging things to the infinity will not work this time.
Jovan,
I understand that your serbian upbringing makes you not to believe about the authenticity of the albanians in that region. But try to use your common sense my friend and read a bit more, what other people have to say about us. I wont give you any history lessons because nowadays, who wants to learn has all the means, but just for one moment think, who has an history of invasions and occupation oth other lands., albanians or serbs. Your famous kings reached the Ioanian sea destroying every thing from that ancient illyrian civilization. Are you claiming that piece of earth as your cradle of Serbian civilization too.
You still sing "Nas Salonica". Is that your territory too?
I am sorry to burst your bubble but your dreams for expansion should end here. Basically, thats what Europe is trying to do. get real.
The only violence that will break out is backlash from the Albanian extremists and remnants of the KLA who will commit terrorist acts against UNMIK if they do not get independence.
These comments by Holbrooke are so typical of his ilk. Here's a man who educated himself in the Balkans largely through reading Robert Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts. In fact, the entire Clinton Administration couldn't tell a Hodja from a Hajduk before reading this book. After taking all the stereotypes as factual, and actually believing that the Balkans were a hotbed of tribes enbroiled in ancient hatreds, they sought to be the self-proclaimed saviours of the region, giving everyone democracy, liberty, and blue jeans. One ill-ritten book, and they knew more about Yugoslavia than Tito.
After 1999 Holbrooke and company promised the Albanians in Kosovo everything their dreams could have imagined - their own state, their own army, their own destiny. Yes, after years and years and years of languishing under a Serbian regime that apparently put Stalin's to shame, the "rape of 1912" would finally be rectified. Of course, all these open promises were done under a different international setting:
1. Milosevic was still in power in Belgrade.
2. Yeltsin was stumbling around in the Kremlin
3. U.S. power was unrivaled
4. The US still gave a hoot about the Balkans
Now 7 years later it seems Russia is flexing its muscles, Europe is wavering on a collective committment to inherit all the responsibilities of FADURK, and the independence that was promised to Pristina on a silver platter is about to become watered down and muddied in the bureaucratic debates of compromise and negotiation.
The inhumanity.
Suddenly independence is seeming to come at a heavy price.
But never one to accept responsibility for promising something that could not be delivered, Holbrooke, Albright and the rest will collectively dump blame and responsibility into the laps of others if their own visions were not realized.
Blame Russia? Sure, Russia's three things Holbrooke is not:
1. Authoritarian
2. Non-European
3. Slavic
And so the Albanians, promised some form of self-determination, rightfully protest and begin to lose faith in the international process. Riots break out against the UN, Serbs hunker down in their municipalities, the SRS points the finger at the failure of democracy, Kurti's Self-Determination movement destabilizes the region, and the entire happy-happy Scandinavian-brokered Eurocratic process of negotiation breaks down with everyone wondering what could have happened?
And who do we blame? Simple: Russia, and of course Serbia, for being the Slavic orientalists and disprupting an otherwise perfect experiment in democracy, initially created by Richard Holbrooke, God's answer to Woodrow Wilson.
And this man thinks the Bush Administration is arrogant and hubristic.....
In 2007, who is Holbrooke? He is a retired has been and certainly does not represent the US government. I would be more interested in hearing the US Presidents perspective on Kosovo & Metohija. However, the silence is a good enough message for the Russians to know that the US have got themselves into a trap of their own making both in Kosovo & Metohija and in Iraq! Time is certainly running out for US and this time the Russians & Chinese have the upper hand. One needs only look at the unrecognised Northern Cyprus for an indication of the future of Unilateral, Illegal declarations of a 2nd Albanian state on internationally recognised Serbian territory. The Holbrooke knows this and his filerbustering is a desperate sign that Serbia has a strong hand with its legal & principled stance.
Now that Holbrooke is in a lucrative private practice who is paying his lobbying fees?Maybe he needs to go to Kosovo and put on a riot helmet and engage in crowd control if he is worried about expected violence.Reminds me of a song by the British band the WHO that goes "here comes the new boss same as the old boss"!!!!
Hollbrooke's argument inherently racist. He is saying that the Albanians aren't able to control themselves and if they do go on a rampage, then it will be someone else's fault.
Funny. No judge in a european court would agree with that argument.
Contrary to Hollbrooke, I believe the opposite is true. The supposedly disbanded KLA runs and controls everything. If there is violence, then it is ordered by the KLA leadership, much like Albin Kurtin's group is allowed to run free, receiving only a light 'slap on the wrist' for creating violent situations.
The KLA is doing the Albanians a major disservice and lying to them that 'independence' will fix everything. It won't. So the KLA will still have to find 'someone' to blame.
That 'someone' will be anything non-albanian, so how could any sort of 'standards' for the remaining minority ever being implemented.
Some say that 'rejecting independence is rejecting minority protection'.
Well, how do you reject something that you never had in the first place? So the argument against rejection is clearly just stupid and wrongheaded.
Remember 'Standards before Status'? How & when was this exactly implemented? It wasn't. The 'right words' come easily for the likes of Thaci, but he's been extensively schooled in western PR speak.
His words mean nothing, and the reality on the ground proves that they mean nothing.
If the international community caves in to threats of violence, I will eat my hat. For the serbian side it would be the best thing that could happen if there was another kristallnacht, like mars 17 2004. There is every reason in the world to try to stall the decision. During the wait, every albanian act of violence is a gift from heaven for the serbian negotiators.
A couple of comments.
First to Cedarwood. No, Serbia probably had no reason to commit crimes in Kosovo, but then, neither did the Albanians. I will thank you to mention this in the future the next time you comment on crimes in Kosovo.
Next to Hermon:
Serbia's dreams for expansion, if any at all, died a long time ago. If you are referring to Kosovo then i'm sorry, but Serbia doesn't have dreams for expansion, rather it wishes not to shrink. Albanian dreams of expansion are more than obvious. Not just because of Kosovo, but also Macedonia, Montenegro and South Serbia. That is what all of the conflicts were about.
I always appreciate it if someone comes up with arguments, or at least tries to do so.
the only thing I would change in your post is: if there are so good means of information about history and other relevant points of argumentation, why then, I repeat it explicitly, why then are you not using them?
why are you claiming to be the descendants of the illyrians if you in fact are not having any connection to them that would be stronger than to the other poeples on the Balkans today?
who is living in a world of myths, actually?
and, ...yes, it is right that the serbian midieval empire reached far to the south on todays greek territory..., but you forget that Serbs and Greeks were equals in this empire, having equal rights, and the serbian Tsar was signing his documents in greek and married a greek princess in order to create a serbian-greek empire. if you ask any Greek today, ask him whether he sees that as a serbian occupation!
you are far from knowing facts, and that´s the problem with the Albanians, claiming to know, but actually being only misguided to the extreme...
I am not angry, reading posts like yours, they are more of an entertaining nature to me.
so, to cut it short: It is YOU who is free to inform himself, if you dare it. use your own brain, and don´t listen to the agitators on the albanian side, who only want you to believe the nonsense of serbian "colonization" in order to control you and to provide an atmosphere of hatred that serves their criminal business-acitivities.
think it over, but do not rely on junk-literature by those Malcolms who write to earn money on your back...
I have even provided albanian sources in one post here, just check my postings of the last weeks and you will find it. if you don´t believe the serbian sources, you will at least believe the albanian ones, will you?
nevertheless, I can say it with a clear conscience, you are more than wrong with your view about Kosovo and it´s history.
It's time to start for all sides to take responsibilty for their actions, serbs and albanians alike. If there would be a situation where albanians resort to violence because of russian veto, then albanians are responsibleand accountable for that violence, clear and simple. People in balkans are like little siblings, just teasing and then blaming each other, then saying "its because he did that" or "she started it".
And if EU and US want to be parents to these kids, they should do more mediating instead of choosing sides, parents don't do that...
Avni...
Don't twist the story...You start off with a decent platform... and then you blow it with accusations of Serbia declaring war on Kosovo..I mean, come on...I assumed you were above the age of 30.
Hermon.
You're great with words. You claim not to bring history into the conversation, and then YOU TOO blow it by bringing up stereoptypes..Your ignorance of statements like "Nas Salonica" and "Serbian expansion" are testament that YOUR upbringing isn't exemplary...
I agree....Albanians are probably tense, but let the story speak for itself, and let's see what happens...
The way you deal with unprovoked violence is meet it with force. Once the parties understand they will not stand by idle and allow mayhem all will understand clearly. I had an albanian friend once tell me that no one listen unless you pick up a gun. Well it works both ways. Why did Germany send 600 more troops to Kosovo and more to follow from other EU nations they are preparing for violence. Has the palenstians acheieved anything with violence no, and will never either. Would the Serbian forces left Kosovo with out force no, so when the albanian choose to use force do you think the international forces will allwo this no. So back to the drawing board. It gets cold in the winter and russia has the gas piplines for Europe. End of comment.
I love it when you Serbs jump out of your chairs and exclaim: "Oh did that Albanian just threaten violence?" or "Hey was that a threat."
There are no threats here. It's only a matter of fact.
Either liberty or death. That's about as close as possible that I can describe the Albanian position at this point.
That doesn't mean terrorist attacks on the Albanians' parts as you Serbs allude to or even accuse us of. As a matter of fact you accuse us of things that we might do! It is desparate really!
No, the Albanians want nothing short of Independence. You know what, they only want to rule themselves and have NO link with Serbia. Believe me they have tried, for almost 100 years now.
Now since these Albanians will not compromise on anything less than independence and the Serbs will not compromise on anything that mentions independence, then where will this magical RUSSIAN Compromise come from?
If a solution by an outside and impartial body cannot be imposed, then there will never be a solution.
Serbs only blame Ahtisaari of being one sided because they are in denial of their history and the pain they've caused the Balkans.
If Kosovo use violence, they would just be copying what serbs did in croatia and bosnia in early 90's. In fact, they should understand why the violence would occur.
As you said if they copy what the Serbs did the early 90's what was the result? Lost territory so will be result. NATO returns with Serbia and Russia in tow destroy the KLA which will be cut off from running to albanian or Macedonia to regroup. Liberty or Death yeah right!! Liberty or run to albanian and macedonia asking for a hand out because of some idiots who think the west is there friend. The west only acts when it is to there advantage. So just give them a reason to act and please don't come the forum crying and make sure you tear down the bill clinton moument as well.
I see some people other here do not read comments at all but they jus like to comment them without understanding them
I ASKED A QUESTION
What is Serbia going to do when Kosovo declares its independence?
Answer if you want, but do not use my question for your “word twisting” campaign.
So what if they have reasons, did Serbia had reasons to commit crimes in Kosovo.
I think there will be more SHEDDING OF BLOOD for what Russia should be blamed.
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin.
The Multiethnic Institutions of Kosovo declare the independence, treating the Serb minority as a regular minority, according to EU standards. US recognize the New Kosovo State, followed by France, UK, Germany, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, and the list goes on.
The question comes
What is Serbian going to do then?
Declare war to Kosovo?! Or just march in Kosovo like they did in 1912?
I think the politicians in Serbia will wake up; they will then call back on Ahtisari’s proposal and demand the treatment of the Serb community in Kosovo as a minority with special status
If Russia uses a veto, Ahtisari plan goes on the trash bin. Kosovo declare the independence and Serbian minority will lose all beneffits from Ahtisari Plan.
"If the Russians delay or dilute or veto it, then I'm afraid the long pent-up desire of the Albanians in Kosovo for a rapid move toward independence will explode into violence," he said."
Any people (whether Albanian or Serb or other ethinic group) who threaten violence to blackmail the international community must not be rewarded. The UN must be resolute about this for it to have any credibility. And Holbrooke should stop this scare tactic which, ironically, will only hurt the cause of the very people whom he champions. And make de facto partition more likely to become de jure.
and your comment sounds like a threat! do you really wish an armed conflict again? come on, you know for yourself, that you would loose.
violence as a means of politics should be condemned, and not like you do it, be seen as a possibility.
and Mr.Holbrooke can talk as much he wants, if violence breakes out, it will be because the US and UK didn´t send a clear message to the Albanians not to speculate on the use of force again, like in 1999.
let us just see what future brings..
I love when Albanians start with their threats with violence! Whom you gonna attack?UNMIK?NATO troops?Local Serbs?Belgrade?UN HQ in NY?Enlight me please!
The possibility of violence is a reason FOR postponing independence, not a justification for it. Using the threat of violence as some kind of rationale for independence only bolsters those in the rest of the world who see violence as a solution for their problems and issues. Yes, I understand that maybe its hard for Kosovars to be patient, but if they want to prove to the world that they are politically mature enough to govern themselves and respect the rights of minorities, then they need to take real steps in this direction. Doesn't it bother any of the Albanians here that the International Community has no faith in the stability of Kosovo or the peaceful behavior of the Kosovars? If I were you, I would be highly offended. Its like they're telling you that you're little kids who will throw a big temper tantrum if you don't get your way right now at this moment. Honestly, I don't buy into that, and you shouldn't either. You should be asking to be treated with respect from the International Community. Its BS.
This is not a threat. This is a fact. All smart people like know that albania's patience has come to an end. They cannot buid thier future under this transitory situation. People are expecting to finalize their dream of leaving without the barbaric serbian rule. They expect to building thier own economy, without expecting Beograde to decide for thier future.
They have been pateint for 9 years now trying to respect the international law that would grant them the right to govern themselves on thier own land. Its normal thier patientvce to come to an end. The old serbian trick of dragging things to the infinity will not work this time.
Jovan,
I understand that your serbian upbringing makes you not to believe about the authenticity of the albanians in that region. But try to use your common sense my friend and read a bit more, what other people have to say about us. I wont give you any history lessons because nowadays, who wants to learn has all the means, but just for one moment think, who has an history of invasions and occupation oth other lands., albanians or serbs. Your famous kings reached the Ioanian sea destroying every thing from that ancient illyrian civilization. Are you claiming that piece of earth as your cradle of Serbian civilization too.
You still sing "Nas Salonica". Is that your territory too?
I am sorry to burst your bubble but your dreams for expansion should end here. Basically, thats what Europe is trying to do. get real.
The only violence that will break out is backlash from the Albanian extremists and remnants of the KLA who will commit terrorist acts against UNMIK if they do not get independence.
These comments by Holbrooke are so typical of his ilk. Here's a man who educated himself in the Balkans largely through reading Robert Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts. In fact, the entire Clinton Administration couldn't tell a Hodja from a Hajduk before reading this book. After taking all the stereotypes as factual, and actually believing that the Balkans were a hotbed of tribes enbroiled in ancient hatreds, they sought to be the self-proclaimed saviours of the region, giving everyone democracy, liberty, and blue jeans. One ill-ritten book, and they knew more about Yugoslavia than Tito.
After 1999 Holbrooke and company promised the Albanians in Kosovo everything their dreams could have imagined - their own state, their own army, their own destiny. Yes, after years and years and years of languishing under a Serbian regime that apparently put Stalin's to shame, the "rape of 1912" would finally be rectified. Of course, all these open promises were done under a different international setting:
1. Milosevic was still in power in Belgrade.
2. Yeltsin was stumbling around in the Kremlin
3. U.S. power was unrivaled
4. The US still gave a hoot about the Balkans
Now 7 years later it seems Russia is flexing its muscles, Europe is wavering on a collective committment to inherit all the responsibilities of FADURK, and the independence that was promised to Pristina on a silver platter is about to become watered down and muddied in the bureaucratic debates of compromise and negotiation.
The inhumanity.
Suddenly independence is seeming to come at a heavy price.
But never one to accept responsibility for promising something that could not be delivered, Holbrooke, Albright and the rest will collectively dump blame and responsibility into the laps of others if their own visions were not realized.
Blame Russia? Sure, Russia's three things Holbrooke is not:
1. Authoritarian
2. Non-European
3. Slavic
And so the Albanians, promised some form of self-determination, rightfully protest and begin to lose faith in the international process. Riots break out against the UN, Serbs hunker down in their municipalities, the SRS points the finger at the failure of democracy, Kurti's Self-Determination movement destabilizes the region, and the entire happy-happy Scandinavian-brokered Eurocratic process of negotiation breaks down with everyone wondering what could have happened?
And who do we blame? Simple: Russia, and of course Serbia, for being the Slavic orientalists and disprupting an otherwise perfect experiment in democracy, initially created by Richard Holbrooke, God's answer to Woodrow Wilson.
And this man thinks the Bush Administration is arrogant and hubristic.....
In 2007, who is Holbrooke? He is a retired has been and certainly does not represent the US government. I would be more interested in hearing the US Presidents perspective on Kosovo & Metohija. However, the silence is a good enough message for the Russians to know that the US have got themselves into a trap of their own making both in Kosovo & Metohija and in Iraq! Time is certainly running out for US and this time the Russians & Chinese have the upper hand. One needs only look at the unrecognised Northern Cyprus for an indication of the future of Unilateral, Illegal declarations of a 2nd Albanian state on internationally recognised Serbian territory. The Holbrooke knows this and his filerbustering is a desperate sign that Serbia has a strong hand with its legal & principled stance.
Now that Holbrooke is in a lucrative private practice who is paying his lobbying fees?Maybe he needs to go to Kosovo and put on a riot helmet and engage in crowd control if he is worried about expected violence.Reminds me of a song by the British band the WHO that goes "here comes the new boss same as the old boss"!!!!
Hollbrooke's argument inherently racist. He is saying that the Albanians aren't able to control themselves and if they do go on a rampage, then it will be someone else's fault.
Funny. No judge in a european court would agree with that argument.
Contrary to Hollbrooke, I believe the opposite is true. The supposedly disbanded KLA runs and controls everything. If there is violence, then it is ordered by the KLA leadership, much like Albin Kurtin's group is allowed to run free, receiving only a light 'slap on the wrist' for creating violent situations.
The KLA is doing the Albanians a major disservice and lying to them that 'independence' will fix everything. It won't. So the KLA will still have to find 'someone' to blame.
That 'someone' will be anything non-albanian, so how could any sort of 'standards' for the remaining minority ever being implemented.
Some say that 'rejecting independence is rejecting minority protection'.
Well, how do you reject something that you never had in the first place? So the argument against rejection is clearly just stupid and wrongheaded.
Remember 'Standards before Status'? How & when was this exactly implemented? It wasn't. The 'right words' come easily for the likes of Thaci, but he's been extensively schooled in western PR speak.
His words mean nothing, and the reality on the ground proves that they mean nothing.
If the international community caves in to threats of violence, I will eat my hat. For the serbian side it would be the best thing that could happen if there was another kristallnacht, like mars 17 2004. There is every reason in the world to try to stall the decision. During the wait, every albanian act of violence is a gift from heaven for the serbian negotiators.
A couple of comments.
First to Cedarwood. No, Serbia probably had no reason to commit crimes in Kosovo, but then, neither did the Albanians. I will thank you to mention this in the future the next time you comment on crimes in Kosovo.
Next to Hermon:
Serbia's dreams for expansion, if any at all, died a long time ago. If you are referring to Kosovo then i'm sorry, but Serbia doesn't have dreams for expansion, rather it wishes not to shrink. Albanian dreams of expansion are more than obvious. Not just because of Kosovo, but also Macedonia, Montenegro and South Serbia. That is what all of the conflicts were about.
I always appreciate it if someone comes up with arguments, or at least tries to do so.
the only thing I would change in your post is: if there are so good means of information about history and other relevant points of argumentation, why then, I repeat it explicitly, why then are you not using them?
why are you claiming to be the descendants of the illyrians if you in fact are not having any connection to them that would be stronger than to the other poeples on the Balkans today?
who is living in a world of myths, actually?
and, ...yes, it is right that the serbian midieval empire reached far to the south on todays greek territory..., but you forget that Serbs and Greeks were equals in this empire, having equal rights, and the serbian Tsar was signing his documents in greek and married a greek princess in order to create a serbian-greek empire. if you ask any Greek today, ask him whether he sees that as a serbian occupation!
you are far from knowing facts, and that´s the problem with the Albanians, claiming to know, but actually being only misguided to the extreme...
I am not angry, reading posts like yours, they are more of an entertaining nature to me.
so, to cut it short: It is YOU who is free to inform himself, if you dare it. use your own brain, and don´t listen to the agitators on the albanian side, who only want you to believe the nonsense of serbian "colonization" in order to control you and to provide an atmosphere of hatred that serves their criminal business-acitivities.
think it over, but do not rely on junk-literature by those Malcolms who write to earn money on your back...
I have even provided albanian sources in one post here, just check my postings of the last weeks and you will find it. if you don´t believe the serbian sources, you will at least believe the albanian ones, will you?
nevertheless, I can say it with a clear conscience, you are more than wrong with your view about Kosovo and it´s history.
It's time to start for all sides to take responsibilty for their actions, serbs and albanians alike. If there would be a situation where albanians resort to violence because of russian veto, then albanians are responsibleand accountable for that violence, clear and simple. People in balkans are like little siblings, just teasing and then blaming each other, then saying "its because he did that" or "she started it".
And if EU and US want to be parents to these kids, they should do more mediating instead of choosing sides, parents don't do that...
Avni...
Don't twist the story...You start off with a decent platform... and then you blow it with accusations of Serbia declaring war on Kosovo..I mean, come on...I assumed you were above the age of 30.
Hermon.
You're great with words. You claim not to bring history into the conversation, and then YOU TOO blow it by bringing up stereoptypes..Your ignorance of statements like "Nas Salonica" and "Serbian expansion" are testament that YOUR upbringing isn't exemplary...
I agree....Albanians are probably tense, but let the story speak for itself, and let's see what happens...
The way you deal with unprovoked violence is meet it with force. Once the parties understand they will not stand by idle and allow mayhem all will understand clearly. I had an albanian friend once tell me that no one listen unless you pick up a gun. Well it works both ways. Why did Germany send 600 more troops to Kosovo and more to follow from other EU nations they are preparing for violence. Has the palenstians acheieved anything with violence no, and will never either. Would the Serbian forces left Kosovo with out force no, so when the albanian choose to use force do you think the international forces will allwo this no. So back to the drawing board. It gets cold in the winter and russia has the gas piplines for Europe. End of comment.
I love it when you Serbs jump out of your chairs and exclaim: "Oh did that Albanian just threaten violence?" or "Hey was that a threat."
There are no threats here. It's only a matter of fact.
Either liberty or death. That's about as close as possible that I can describe the Albanian position at this point.
That doesn't mean terrorist attacks on the Albanians' parts as you Serbs allude to or even accuse us of. As a matter of fact you accuse us of things that we might do! It is desparate really!
No, the Albanians want nothing short of Independence. You know what, they only want to rule themselves and have NO link with Serbia. Believe me they have tried, for almost 100 years now.
Now since these Albanians will not compromise on anything less than independence and the Serbs will not compromise on anything that mentions independence, then where will this magical RUSSIAN Compromise come from?
If a solution by an outside and impartial body cannot be imposed, then there will never be a solution.
Serbs only blame Ahtisaari of being one sided because they are in denial of their history and the pain they've caused the Balkans.
If Kosovo use violence, they would just be copying what serbs did in croatia and bosnia in early 90's. In fact, they should understand why the violence would occur.
As you said if they copy what the Serbs did the early 90's what was the result? Lost territory so will be result. NATO returns with Serbia and Russia in tow destroy the KLA which will be cut off from running to albanian or Macedonia to regroup. Liberty or Death yeah right!! Liberty or run to albanian and macedonia asking for a hand out because of some idiots who think the west is there friend. The west only acts when it is to there advantage. So just give them a reason to act and please don't come the forum crying and make sure you tear down the bill clinton moument as well.
I see some people other here do not read comments at all but they jus like to comment them without understanding them
I ASKED A QUESTION
What is Serbia going to do when Kosovo declares its independence?
Answer if you want, but do not use my question for your “word twisting” campaign.
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