"Russia is to blame if new war breaks out"

Bildt's comments seem more moderate than most (at least for now), especially with respect to the premature recognition of an independent Croatia. We'll see how his discourse evolves and how genuine it is.

russia is weak it has no power the americans will pay russia monet to stay out and kosova will be albanian simple as that.

I agree with skender, Russia has no more clout in the world.Russia, after the fall of the Soviet Union has not been able to rise from the ash, it's weak and not capable to defend itself,let alone Serbia. Russia is making deals with the West for it's own good not Serbias. kosovo is gone.

The Russians say that Ahtisari's plan 'favors only one side'. If you read between the lines, that means VETO.
And as for any suggestions that the Russians will be paid off, dream on! Russia is running a surplus right now and is full of money while the US is running a huge deficit. They don't need American or IMF money, quite the contrary. I look forward to a veto from Russia which it looks like they are itching for.

Skender, write with your head instead of your emotions, and you might be taken more seriously in this forum.

Mr.Holbrooke threats the world that "chaos" will erupt in Kosovo if Mr. Ahtisaari's plan is not backed. The rality is that he actually is inciting Kosovo Albanians to create such a chaos. The reason? The USA needs three new permanent military bases in Kosovo!

I think my comment above got filed in the wrong basket. No matter. Anyhow, does anybody take this Holebrook character seriously any more? Should there be a tendency toward peace, you can be sure Holebrook will do something to fix that.

It is irresponsible of Holbrooke to talk of violence like this - there is no justification for violence.

The urge for separation predates Milosevic - Serbs were leaving Kosovo much earlier because of pressure from Albanian separatists. Serbia is not the Serbia of Milosevic - he has gone and democracy is reasserting itself. Legally Serbia will be wronged if it has its territory taken away - despite all the wrongs that were done in Milosevic's time.

America was anti Serbia before Milosevic because Serbia was a communist country. This is no longer the case - and at some time soon America will have to change its stance. Holbrooke is trying to extend the old aguments into the current situation and I don't believe that to be legally valid or diplomatically sensible.

I am not sure that even the UN actually has that power - it is not really its function to sieze territory. Perhaps California will go to Mexico as soon as the population tips past 50% spanish speakers?

As a precedent the siezure of Kosovo would be alarming. If this can happen then other areas can demand independence - it is naive of Holbrooke to say that there would be no precedent - of course there is!!!

If NATO intervention on a humantarian basis results in conquest then there can be no such interventions from NATO in future. Its political credibility depends on honest motives - and the stated motive for the bombing was not to form an independent Kosovo. Holbrooke should worry more about this than about any other issue.

The substantial (almost total) automomy available to Kosovo should be accepted as the next step - after that further negotiations can continue to take place. However, if there is to be violence it will orgininate from those who are not willing to negotiate. Holbooke has given comfort and justification for future violence - and for that he is irresponsible - blaming Russia does not make it any more correct.

If violence does start - those who do it should be given no reward.

States should also be reluctant to accept unilateral declarations of independence - much of the Balkan troubles was precipitated by them doing that with other countries. Peaceful processes of negotiation and honest efforts to work toward EU entry are the best way forward.

I don't know how much emphasis to place on Mr. Holbrooke's remarks however I do think that it would greatly benefit the Serbian people to feel like they live in a world of inevitable peace, as if they live in Switzerland for example. And the only route I see for the latter statement to occur, is if Serbia allies itself with the West and if Serbia lets go of the primary thorn in its side, Kosovo. However, I do think it necessary for me to explain this.

I can easily understand how blatantly naive the latter may sound. And I cannot respect the Serbian people enough for what they are going through during their volatile talks with Martti Ahtisaari. For this nation is losing an entire portion of its southern territory. That is almost the equivalent of Canada losing French-speaking Quebec, or Spain losing its Basque territory, or even the United States losing Mexican-dominated southern Arizona. However, I do understand that there is a difference to all of these noted cases. For Canada, Spain, and the United States have of course some of the most successful economies in the world and so the Quebecois, the Basques, and the Mexicans in Arizona want a part of that rapid economy. But Serbia, unfortunately, does not have that influential card to offer either to Martti Ahtisaari nor to the people living in Kosovo.

So my, admittedly contentious, argument is that Serbia should let go of that territory once and for all so that the nation can then focus on one thing and one thing only: Serbia's economic progression and infinite stability. But my view is that as long as Kosovo is, nonetheless rightfully and legitimately in my view, held by Serbia, then the people of Serbia will not receive the benefits that they deserve as citizens of Serbia because of the thorn that is Kosovo, and the violence that it may bring about. And thus I think that once Serbia can focus on strictly the economy, not people in Kosovo, then the mentioned term of inevitable peace can ensue.

However, lastly, the Kosovo situation only displays just how important it is for Serbia to ally itself with the West. For it is another contention of mine that if Serbia was currently a member of the EU, or of more warm relations with Germany, Great Britain, and the United States, then I would suspect that Martti Ahtisaari would be pressured into taking a more conciliatory stand in regards to this issue. In other words, had Serbia been a member of a leading Western international organization, or had Serbia been good friends with the Western powers, then Kosovo would more likely than not be pushed into becoming a part of Serbia, instead of becoming independent, just as the Basque territory is viewed as a part of Spain and just as Quebec is viewed as a part of Canada.

US is the one feeling the pressure and not Russia. US has everything to lose while Russia has everything to gain. Well Mr. Skender only reflects the true color of Albanians...pay-off is the name of the game. In Ottoman empire, albanians converted easily their religion for better economic situation as opposed to serbians who retained their orthodox religion against all odds.

I have heard the ethnic-Albanians say

"If we don't get Independence we will start a war"
- I guess we always knew where these threats came from at least now Holbrooke is not in a position to deceide. However, Holbrooke is brazen enough to suggest blaming it all on the Russians but the words are clearly linked to the intransigence of the ethnic-Albanian leadership and the Russians know it and might be all the more up for a veto.

However, it is not the Russians who have got the US into a trap with no exit. Holbrooke need look no further then the mirror if he is looking to apportion blame having promised something that was never in his remit to promise. Maybe Bush can turn this all round to his liking and distract the US populace over his failings in Iraq by creating a disaster that he can put the blame squarely onto the Democrats - underhanded maybe but not implausible!

What is a carrot of EU Memebership worth? The more that this carrot is discussed I guess the more Serbs should question the sincerity of an EU that has no principled foundations. Seeing as it is colluding in this blackmail of - hand over 15% of your territory and we will let you join our club!!!

As a citizen of the UK and as such an EU citizen I find this so distasteful in the extreme and resent the unprincipled nature of their suggestions. The fact that many are unelected technocrats who have been involved in underhanded resigning matters in their home nation - for example UK's Peter Mandelson - resigned as a UK Minister various times over certain allegations or other before being given a cushy job as EU trade Minister by his budddy Bliar - explains why they advocate such unprincipled propositions. It makes many in the EU wonder whether one really wants to be part of it or not. Many in the UK are all for the trade and economic element of the EU but it's political non-elitie and creation of non-stop red tape brings it down all the time.

RE: Richard Holbrook is a War Criminal.

Richard Holbrook worked with the KLA, in fact was a guest in one of the terrorist cells and broadcast on CNN the "KLA story"

Richard Holbrook was the creator of the Rambouillet Ultimatum , also the creator of the Ultimatum to the Bosnian Serbs who were forced to sign the Dayton Accords which have turned out to be nothing more than a disaster.

UNSC Resolution 1244 signed in Kumonovo guarantees the Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity of Serbia, nothing less, nothing more.

Through Richard Holbrook and his proxies, Serbia was bombed for 78 days. For the first time in history, a non-agressive sovereign country was bombed. Both the NATO Defensive Charter and the UN Charter itself was compromised for the illegal bombing of the former " Mini-Yugoslav"federation of Serbia and Montenegro

The Kumonovo agreements were only signed to avert rising public opinion against the war and the US opposition to a ground war in Kosovo.

The KLA was promptly allowed back into Kosovo by KFOR after being soundly defeated by the Serbian Military.

The people to blame if a new war breaks out are the members of the IC who supported, encouraged and armed a terrorist insurgency in Kosovo in the 1990's. They then compounded this error by not implimenting 1244, and by letting the non-Albanians be purged from Kosovo. Finally, they abandoned 'Standards before Status' and gave the negotiations to Ahtissari, (the man who was president of Finland when the Finnish Parliament proposed a motion to honor the Finnish contingent of the Nazi SS), who failed so miserably to be impartial during the negotiations to end the criminal bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999.

Holbrooke is wrong: whoever starts a war will be to blame if there is another war. And if that is his 'former terrorist', Bin Laden-aligned KLA buddies, I am sure that he will find some way to blame Russia for that. I keep forgetting that Holbrooke thinks that he is God for the Serbs. Why should there be a war if NATO are there occupying the land that is not theirs?

George Bush should do something useful for once in his Presidency and put Holbrooke into Guantanamo for associating with KLA terrorists.

"if it can get past its own paralyzing historical myths”
Calling another peoples' belief system a "myth" and that it needs to "get past it" is one of the most offensive things a politician (or anyone) can do. That would be like telling the Muslim world that Mohamed ascending to Heaven from the Dome of the Rock is just a "myth" and they need to get past it and give up Jerusalem to make way for peace. Scientifically, ascending to Heaven is probably impossible, but that does not diminish in any way shape or form the importance of that spot to the belief system of Muslims the world over.
The Serbian belief that Kosovo is the very cradle and foundation of our civilization and the basis for our national identity is far more grounded in reality and backed up historically then many of the belief systems held by ethnic groups elsewhere in the world. I personally find the revisionism of our beliefs and history highly offensive. Even if it was true that only a handful of Serbs ever lived in Kosovo, it does not change the validity of our belief system. Belief systems are based on faith, not facts. Although the existence of many Old Churches would seem to indicate a fairly long term presence to me. However, the arguments people like Noel Malcolm put forth are 100% irrelevant in determining Kosovo's spiritual importance to the Serbian people. Its not just a religious thing either. Even to very secular people such as myself, Kosovo represents Serbia and how we came to be, much as how Greeks feel about the Acropolis even if they are not pagans. The connection between the Church and Serbian identity is nearly unique in the World. No other race that I am aware of can change their ethnicity simply by changing their religion.
"A major European crisis would be assured. Bloodshed would return to the Balkans. NATO, which is pledged to keep peace in Kosovo, could find itself back in battle in Europe"
The possibility of violence against the Serbian population or the destruction of our cultural heritage is very real. However, the threat of violence is NOT a valid justification for a rushed decision that may not bring true stability to the region. Statements such as these only encourage the use of violence to settle issues in the Balkans. The fact is Holbrook is basically admitting the International Community is completely incapable of offering real protection to the Serbian population in Kosovo. The abandonment of "Standards before Status" also strongly serves to support those who advocate the use of violence as a solution to the region's problems and to emphasize the inability of the International Community to bring true Human Rights to the area. The reality is that although the ratio of Serbian victims to Albanian victims is 1 to 10, this mirrors the population distribution, and the net effect is the average Serb is just as likely as the average Albanian to suffer as a victim. Considering the crimes committed against Albanians occurred on a state sponsored level, and the Milosevic regime is long gone, means the chances of the Albanians suffering anytime in the recent future is pretty close to zero. However, for the Serb victims, the vast majority of the crimes committed against them occurred while the International Community was in charge and they don't seem to be able to offer any sort of assurances that this type of violence will not occur in the future. Lets be clear here, Holbrook (and the International Community) is talking about violence and war committed by Kosovar extremists and NOT Serbians.
Ahtisaari's protections contained in his proposal can be undone without the consent of the Serbian population there. All that is needed to rewrite these protections is a simple majority of the ethnic minority vote. Considering half of the minority seats are reserved for non-Serbians, this means that the municipalities can be completely abolished without a single Serbian vote to do so. This is no guarantee for the future protection of the Serbian population or heritage.
"If Moscow vetoes or delays the Ahtisaari’s plan, the Kosovo Albanians will declare independence unilaterally"
Ceku stated that he would not do this. Therefore if we take him at his word, this is a non-issue and we should not speculate on such scenarios.
There is no reason to rush to a decision (except the unreasonable threat of violence). One year was dedicated to finding a solution to a problem that has lasted nearly 1,000 years is not an unduly long period of time. We need to return to the negotiating table, with Russia's support, and find a lasting regional solution for the problems in the Balkans that includes the rights and wishes of the Albanian population in all the countries in which they live. The rights of the Kosovars are not more important then the rights of Albanians in Presevo, or Macedonia or Greece or wherever they live. Tough compromises and creative solutions should be the rule of the day. If the EU is serious about a solution to problems in the Balkans, then they need to get everyone in the region into the EU ASAP. They already run Bosnia and Kosovo. This would go very far to foster a European perspective and would serve to bring Serbians and Albanians closer together. Ahtisaari's plan as it stands is simply madness that will lead to partition and war.

NO power Skender? LOL plzzzz I mean Russia is not on top but you clearly don't realize how fast they have grown since the 90's do you?

Albanian?...no I am afraid not ....see Albanians already have their own country...I believe its called ALBANIA, NO relation to Kosovo a Serbian province...try and put the two apart. ;)

Holbrooke is a very bitter individual with a history of hatred for Serbs, presumably because someone has paid him a lot of money over the years for taking this position. NATO's illegal "intervention" against Yugoslavia 1999 is an episode that many in the USA and EU would prefer to forget. Carl Bildt is a man of integrity and his views deserve considerable creedence. The inability of the Kosovo albanians to demonstrate tolerance does not bode well for what remains of international democracy. To grant independence to "Kosova" would be a victory for bigotry, racism, and barbarity. This is not 1999 anymore, Yeltsin and his cronies have gone, this time Russia will defend justice for everyone and prevent another round of Serb-bashing.

Skender, you are wrong. Russia is very powerful right now. Also, Russia does not need any money right now. In 1999 it did. Right now it doesn't. Russia can do what it wants. It is paying off its loans in advance and is booming economically. It can cut off gas to the west an the west will be in crisis. Therefore Russia is not weak.

I don't understand the rush to read anything that comes from deciding players through black-and-white lenses. What matters is the fact that Belgrade, or its leaders at one point in time undertook massive expulsion and killing of its own citizens, albeit of a different nationality, but still its own citizens.
For almost a decade its leaders in Belgrade waged four wars and behaved as if they were a regional superpower. They lost a war they started and refuse to understand that if you lose a war you may lose a lot more than what you wanted to gain. War is gamble. You play, you pay.
What matters now is that Albanians should ensure that Kosovo Serbs should enjoy full rights, whereas Serb nationalists should come to terms with reality. After all they are precisely the people to blame for losing Kossovo.

Serbia's future, according to Holbrooke, “lies within the European Union, if it can get past its own paralyzing historical myths”.

Holbrooke's statement could use a bit deeper analysis I beleive. The idea of 1389 is to present the idea of a spiritual victory for Christian Serbs despite a physical military loss. In its best manifestation, this idea can come to encourage individuals to abandon external monetary rewards in return for altruistic rewards. In its worst form, the idea can work to incite hatred, violence, and war.

I believe that a component within the Kosovo legend needs to be re-examined. That would be the idea that Serbs also sacrificed themselves for European civilization. This is the true "myth" of Kosovo, and can cloud the reality that the member nations in the EU have never and will never make sacrifices for the welfare of Serbia. A push for an independent Kosovo by large EU powers might be a blessing in disguise as an eventual independence would provide strong evidence of this. Serbia as a new EU nation would simply be a supplier of cheap labour and a new market for goods for a bloc which is increasingly losing its competitiveness to nations like China and India.

Serbia has removed the authoritarian rule of Milosevic. A true defeat of the Kosovo legend would come not from that territory being granted independence, rather if Serbia gave up control of its destiny to larger powers for the hopes of some hypothetical monetary rewards far in the horizon. It has an opportunity now to behave as a truly indpendent, democratic state without being ruled from a neo-colonialist bloc.

Serbia once rejected to be a voluntary vassal province of the Ottoman Empire, it should now do the very same thing with the EU.

Holbrooke is wrong. How can Russia be blamed for the quagmire that the US and Nato had created from 1999 to 2007?

And if war does break out, it would be the aggressors (whether they are Albanians, Serbs or foreigners) who launched the new war and whoever supply arms to them (whether US or Russia or Martians from outer space).

Personally I don't think war would break out as the aggressors would have too much to lose, namely the condemnation of the international community. This will do more harm to the aggressors' own political goals than anything else. Holbrooke is just trying to use scare tactics on Moscow. He is scared to death that the prestige of the West will be eroded if they do not have an agreement on Kosovo

“If Russia blocks the Ahtisaari plan, the chaos that follows will be Moscow's responsibility and will affect other aspects of Russia's relationships with the West.”, Holbrooke argued."

And what makes Holbrooke so sure that chaos WOULDN'T erupt precisely because Ahtisaari's plan is allowed??? A lot of other people will now find the motivation to rekindle their so-called liberation struggles -- Albanians in Macedonia, Serbs in Bosnia, Turks in North Cyprus, Basque nationalists in Spain, Catholics in N. Ireland, Hungarians in Slovakia, Abkhazians in Georgia, Tibetans in China, Acehese in Indonesia ...... do I need to go on? All these people will find a new momentum to their liberation agendas. I find Holbrooke's logic extremely illogical.

Holbrookes comments are ridiculous.

So that would mean the US is responsible for
the problems in the Middle east when they Veto
a UN resolution against Israel?

Quote from Wikipedia:
'Holbrooke has a very aggressive style
that some find off-putting'

Amen to that.

All the arguments aside momentarily...Independence or not.

I hate to think where this thread is going to deviate.

I'd really like to stick to Holdbrooke personally..

Here is a man who clearly only comes along when needed to poke needles and gaffs at Serbia's expense....Yet, besides acting as Kosovo's saviour from Serbian tyranny and mythical Empireship...has done NOTHING to actually help out Kosovo's people in the last eight years...

I suppose he's helped out as far as Albanian's international stances are concerned, but what has he done other than antagonize at Serbia's expense??

I see a man who used the Albanians to bomb the Serbian nation...totally disregarding both Albanian and Serbian lives, knowing full well the knee-jerk reaction from Milosevic..

What interest does Holdbrooke have in this tiny corner of the world?

Democracy? Duty? 1950's CIA anti-communist doctrine? Personal wealth?

Please somebody tell me?

Why do i want to blame him for these woes just as much as i do Milosevic??

Russia has more oil and gas than the USA and those commodities spell: POWER!! Ask the Euporeans how much they would like NOT to be able to buy Russian oil and gas at reasonable prices. Western Europeans, sitting around freezing in the cold and dark with no "petrol" for the BMW would be no fun!!
As far as old man, Holbrooke goes is a has-been politician and a third rate businessman who takes money from a US based Public Relations firm that works for Albanians in Kosovo. Never trust the words of a PR man. Unless you like to be lied to. Always remember the old US saying, PR men LIKE to believe their own lies.

Russia is asserting its might as the Economist states. She is flush with oil and gas revenues, and is emerging once again as a super-power. Putin is re-asserting Russian interests in the region. It is good to see that they are not see easily cowed by western imperialist ambitions. Here in England, Russia is more respected than America. It is good to see that they are standing up for their slavic brothers as they have done in previous wars. After the great war, Kosovo was awarded to Serbia by very wise men who recognized serbian soveriegn claims over the territory of Kosovo. Kosovo is Christian land- Not Muslim. Never has been, never will be.

I guess Mr. Holbrooke and the rest of the Clinton gang are still trying to justify a failed policy. Mr. Holbrooke realizes who will be at fault for that and that's why he's so quick to blame those around him.

So the US can invade and basically destroy a country but has the gaul to blame another country for percieved future violence which is not of the other countries making.
DOUBLE STANDARDS GONE MAD

no dick, it will be - just like in the 90ies - western fault!

but a simple question: so what?

who are the albanians gonna fight?? un-cars??

they will never attack their only insurence from justice, thats why all of us are still sitting on "negotiation-tables" about science-fiction like indiependent south serbia.

It is not Moscow which has been complicit in encouraging & training of terrorist groups in the Balkans in the 90's but Holbrooke and the then US administration of Clinton
http://www.aim.org/aim_column/4897_0_3_0_C/ who trained and funded via the CIA (US) & BND (German) secret service missions http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/KLA.html the KLA terrorists who are now the political leadership http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6445023.stm [sic] of this drugs, people trafficking mafia haven that has been created in the South East of Europe. The predominantly muslim ethnic-Albanians have been egged along by the likes of Holbrooke to the point where they have said all along "independence or war". Surely, the UN Security Council should not be complicit in rewarding terrorism at the threat of violence.
Holbrooke is only too eager to stop the unraveling of what the Clinton administration started and now is brazen enough to suggest that any future violence be put squarely upon the Russians. However, the Russians have not been the ones who initiated this fracas - Holbrooke is trying to create a smoke screen for a mess of his own making! Holbrooke under Clinton's administration would probably prefer the truth over this failed "humanitarianism" does not come back to haunt the democrats next year but are only too eager to highlight Bush's failing in Iraq. It is about time that he truth regarding Kosovo & Metohija was aired - maybe at that point there might be an opportunity for real dialogue between the Serbian Government and it's ethnic-Albanian constituents - ensuring a real, peaceful & lasting solution maybe found.
Holbrooke need look no further then the mirror when apportioning blame and should have considered how his encouragement of the KLA terrorists would be counterproductive to peace & stability in the long run. At least the Germans are realising their failures (The Failure of the West's 'Ostrich' Policy) http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,471178,00.html surely it is time for the US to admit it's mistake rather then try to blame others.

ha ha ha
thats all I have to say
on a note about Russia’s oil wealth; It's all concentrated in Siberia and it will be depleted in next 20 to 30 years. What is then Russia going to barging with ?Corrupted economy? Cold Air !
Princip every time you use highly left-liberal, anarchic, anti-government articles to support your vague point, automatically you lose the argument.

Organized crime has existed in Russia for centuries.Russian Organized Crime can now be found everywhere,from US,Israel to Spain.Russians can be considered together with Italians and Colombians to be the most powerful criminals in the world.Russian criminals are active in:Fraud,money laundering,drug trafficking,weapon smuggling,car theft,white slave trafficking/prostitution,hostage taking,murder and so on and so on.Just a little reminder about how powerful Russia is!!!Cheerio.

I would just like to comment on my, albeit individual, perception of how North Americans and Western Europeans view the Serbian people. It is my experience that people of Serbian heritage are accepted and integrated into North American and Western European societies very nicely, and perhaps better than most other groups. This is partly because the Serbian people are believers in Christ and they share most of the same values as do people who were born in North America or Western Europe. Indeed, for such a small nation, all Serbian people should hold a great deal of pride in the fact that Serbs are so well represented in areas of sports, politics, and cinema worldwide and especially in North America. Thus, the notion that Americans are anti-Serb is just not true is my fundamental argument. In fact, if you were to ask most Americans on the streets of American cities what they think about the Serbian people, they would most probably say something like: "Yeah, Peja, he's awesome man. Great 3-point shooter. Great individual."

Instead, what I think the problem is here is that Serbia as a nation is still a bit foreign, and thus frankly less-important, for North American politicians and, to a lesser degree, Western European politicians. For the latter two groups probably can name a person of Serbian heritage that they know, but they simply do not know much, if anything, about the nation itself. But I think this is critical knowledge because it enables the major powers to side with Serbia on issues as important as is the Kosovo issue, if they recognize the importance that Kosovo has for the Serbian people and how Serbia, as a nation, is an extension of the Western belief system.

Serbia has been punished for protecting its interests, interests which are directly tied to its citizens not so much with economy, and yet they have been punished at every step. USA, EU, and Israel have only been pursuing economic and terretorial interests yet they receive no criticism. Any Middle-Eastern country which does not agree with US and Western policy should be on Serbias side.

Bildt's comments seem more moderate than most (at least for now), especially with respect to the premature recognition of an independent Croatia. We'll see how his discourse evolves and how genuine it is.

russia is weak it has no power the americans will pay russia monet to stay out and kosova will be albanian simple as that.

I agree with skender, Russia has no more clout in the world.Russia, after the fall of the Soviet Union has not been able to rise from the ash, it's weak and not capable to defend itself,let alone Serbia. Russia is making deals with the West for it's own good not Serbias. kosovo is gone.

The Russians say that Ahtisari's plan 'favors only one side'. If you read between the lines, that means VETO.
And as for any suggestions that the Russians will be paid off, dream on! Russia is running a surplus right now and is full of money while the US is running a huge deficit. They don't need American or IMF money, quite the contrary. I look forward to a veto from Russia which it looks like they are itching for.

Skender, write with your head instead of your emotions, and you might be taken more seriously in this forum.

Mr.Holbrooke threats the world that "chaos" will erupt in Kosovo if Mr. Ahtisaari's plan is not backed. The rality is that he actually is inciting Kosovo Albanians to create such a chaos. The reason? The USA needs three new permanent military bases in Kosovo!

I think my comment above got filed in the wrong basket. No matter. Anyhow, does anybody take this Holebrook character seriously any more? Should there be a tendency toward peace, you can be sure Holebrook will do something to fix that.

It is irresponsible of Holbrooke to talk of violence like this - there is no justification for violence.

The urge for separation predates Milosevic - Serbs were leaving Kosovo much earlier because of pressure from Albanian separatists. Serbia is not the Serbia of Milosevic - he has gone and democracy is reasserting itself. Legally Serbia will be wronged if it has its territory taken away - despite all the wrongs that were done in Milosevic's time.

America was anti Serbia before Milosevic because Serbia was a communist country. This is no longer the case - and at some time soon America will have to change its stance. Holbrooke is trying to extend the old aguments into the current situation and I don't believe that to be legally valid or diplomatically sensible.

I am not sure that even the UN actually has that power - it is not really its function to sieze territory. Perhaps California will go to Mexico as soon as the population tips past 50% spanish speakers?

As a precedent the siezure of Kosovo would be alarming. If this can happen then other areas can demand independence - it is naive of Holbrooke to say that there would be no precedent - of course there is!!!

If NATO intervention on a humantarian basis results in conquest then there can be no such interventions from NATO in future. Its political credibility depends on honest motives - and the stated motive for the bombing was not to form an independent Kosovo. Holbrooke should worry more about this than about any other issue.

The substantial (almost total) automomy available to Kosovo should be accepted as the next step - after that further negotiations can continue to take place. However, if there is to be violence it will orgininate from those who are not willing to negotiate. Holbooke has given comfort and justification for future violence - and for that he is irresponsible - blaming Russia does not make it any more correct.

If violence does start - those who do it should be given no reward.

States should also be reluctant to accept unilateral declarations of independence - much of the Balkan troubles was precipitated by them doing that with other countries. Peaceful processes of negotiation and honest efforts to work toward EU entry are the best way forward.

I don't know how much emphasis to place on Mr. Holbrooke's remarks however I do think that it would greatly benefit the Serbian people to feel like they live in a world of inevitable peace, as if they live in Switzerland for example. And the only route I see for the latter statement to occur, is if Serbia allies itself with the West and if Serbia lets go of the primary thorn in its side, Kosovo. However, I do think it necessary for me to explain this.

I can easily understand how blatantly naive the latter may sound. And I cannot respect the Serbian people enough for what they are going through during their volatile talks with Martti Ahtisaari. For this nation is losing an entire portion of its southern territory. That is almost the equivalent of Canada losing French-speaking Quebec, or Spain losing its Basque territory, or even the United States losing Mexican-dominated southern Arizona. However, I do understand that there is a difference to all of these noted cases. For Canada, Spain, and the United States have of course some of the most successful economies in the world and so the Quebecois, the Basques, and the Mexicans in Arizona want a part of that rapid economy. But Serbia, unfortunately, does not have that influential card to offer either to Martti Ahtisaari nor to the people living in Kosovo.

So my, admittedly contentious, argument is that Serbia should let go of that territory once and for all so that the nation can then focus on one thing and one thing only: Serbia's economic progression and infinite stability. But my view is that as long as Kosovo is, nonetheless rightfully and legitimately in my view, held by Serbia, then the people of Serbia will not receive the benefits that they deserve as citizens of Serbia because of the thorn that is Kosovo, and the violence that it may bring about. And thus I think that once Serbia can focus on strictly the economy, not people in Kosovo, then the mentioned term of inevitable peace can ensue.

However, lastly, the Kosovo situation only displays just how important it is for Serbia to ally itself with the West. For it is another contention of mine that if Serbia was currently a member of the EU, or of more warm relations with Germany, Great Britain, and the United States, then I would suspect that Martti Ahtisaari would be pressured into taking a more conciliatory stand in regards to this issue. In other words, had Serbia been a member of a leading Western international organization, or had Serbia been good friends with the Western powers, then Kosovo would more likely than not be pushed into becoming a part of Serbia, instead of becoming independent, just as the Basque territory is viewed as a part of Spain and just as Quebec is viewed as a part of Canada.

US is the one feeling the pressure and not Russia. US has everything to lose while Russia has everything to gain. Well Mr. Skender only reflects the true color of Albanians...pay-off is the name of the game. In Ottoman empire, albanians converted easily their religion for better economic situation as opposed to serbians who retained their orthodox religion against all odds.

I have heard the ethnic-Albanians say

"If we don't get Independence we will start a war"
- I guess we always knew where these threats came from at least now Holbrooke is not in a position to deceide. However, Holbrooke is brazen enough to suggest blaming it all on the Russians but the words are clearly linked to the intransigence of the ethnic-Albanian leadership and the Russians know it and might be all the more up for a veto.

However, it is not the Russians who have got the US into a trap with no exit. Holbrooke need look no further then the mirror if he is looking to apportion blame having promised something that was never in his remit to promise. Maybe Bush can turn this all round to his liking and distract the US populace over his failings in Iraq by creating a disaster that he can put the blame squarely onto the Democrats - underhanded maybe but not implausible!

What is a carrot of EU Memebership worth? The more that this carrot is discussed I guess the more Serbs should question the sincerity of an EU that has no principled foundations. Seeing as it is colluding in this blackmail of - hand over 15% of your territory and we will let you join our club!!!

As a citizen of the UK and as such an EU citizen I find this so distasteful in the extreme and resent the unprincipled nature of their suggestions. The fact that many are unelected technocrats who have been involved in underhanded resigning matters in their home nation - for example UK's Peter Mandelson - resigned as a UK Minister various times over certain allegations or other before being given a cushy job as EU trade Minister by his budddy Bliar - explains why they advocate such unprincipled propositions. It makes many in the EU wonder whether one really wants to be part of it or not. Many in the UK are all for the trade and economic element of the EU but it's political non-elitie and creation of non-stop red tape brings it down all the time.

RE: Richard Holbrook is a War Criminal.

Richard Holbrook worked with the KLA, in fact was a guest in one of the terrorist cells and broadcast on CNN the "KLA story"

Richard Holbrook was the creator of the Rambouillet Ultimatum , also the creator of the Ultimatum to the Bosnian Serbs who were forced to sign the Dayton Accords which have turned out to be nothing more than a disaster.

UNSC Resolution 1244 signed in Kumonovo guarantees the Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity of Serbia, nothing less, nothing more.

Through Richard Holbrook and his proxies, Serbia was bombed for 78 days. For the first time in history, a non-agressive sovereign country was bombed. Both the NATO Defensive Charter and the UN Charter itself was compromised for the illegal bombing of the former " Mini-Yugoslav"federation of Serbia and Montenegro

The Kumonovo agreements were only signed to avert rising public opinion against the war and the US opposition to a ground war in Kosovo.

The KLA was promptly allowed back into Kosovo by KFOR after being soundly defeated by the Serbian Military.

The people to blame if a new war breaks out are the members of the IC who supported, encouraged and armed a terrorist insurgency in Kosovo in the 1990's. They then compounded this error by not implimenting 1244, and by letting the non-Albanians be purged from Kosovo. Finally, they abandoned 'Standards before Status' and gave the negotiations to Ahtissari, (the man who was president of Finland when the Finnish Parliament proposed a motion to honor the Finnish contingent of the Nazi SS), who failed so miserably to be impartial during the negotiations to end the criminal bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999.

Holbrooke is wrong: whoever starts a war will be to blame if there is another war. And if that is his 'former terrorist', Bin Laden-aligned KLA buddies, I am sure that he will find some way to blame Russia for that. I keep forgetting that Holbrooke thinks that he is God for the Serbs. Why should there be a war if NATO are there occupying the land that is not theirs?

George Bush should do something useful for once in his Presidency and put Holbrooke into Guantanamo for associating with KLA terrorists.

"if it can get past its own paralyzing historical myths”
Calling another peoples' belief system a "myth" and that it needs to "get past it" is one of the most offensive things a politician (or anyone) can do. That would be like telling the Muslim world that Mohamed ascending to Heaven from the Dome of the Rock is just a "myth" and they need to get past it and give up Jerusalem to make way for peace. Scientifically, ascending to Heaven is probably impossible, but that does not diminish in any way shape or form the importance of that spot to the belief system of Muslims the world over.
The Serbian belief that Kosovo is the very cradle and foundation of our civilization and the basis for our national identity is far more grounded in reality and backed up historically then many of the belief systems held by ethnic groups elsewhere in the world. I personally find the revisionism of our beliefs and history highly offensive. Even if it was true that only a handful of Serbs ever lived in Kosovo, it does not change the validity of our belief system. Belief systems are based on faith, not facts. Although the existence of many Old Churches would seem to indicate a fairly long term presence to me. However, the arguments people like Noel Malcolm put forth are 100% irrelevant in determining Kosovo's spiritual importance to the Serbian people. Its not just a religious thing either. Even to very secular people such as myself, Kosovo represents Serbia and how we came to be, much as how Greeks feel about the Acropolis even if they are not pagans. The connection between the Church and Serbian identity is nearly unique in the World. No other race that I am aware of can change their ethnicity simply by changing their religion.
"A major European crisis would be assured. Bloodshed would return to the Balkans. NATO, which is pledged to keep peace in Kosovo, could find itself back in battle in Europe"
The possibility of violence against the Serbian population or the destruction of our cultural heritage is very real. However, the threat of violence is NOT a valid justification for a rushed decision that may not bring true stability to the region. Statements such as these only encourage the use of violence to settle issues in the Balkans. The fact is Holbrook is basically admitting the International Community is completely incapable of offering real protection to the Serbian population in Kosovo. The abandonment of "Standards before Status" also strongly serves to support those who advocate the use of violence as a solution to the region's problems and to emphasize the inability of the International Community to bring true Human Rights to the area. The reality is that although the ratio of Serbian victims to Albanian victims is 1 to 10, this mirrors the population distribution, and the net effect is the average Serb is just as likely as the average Albanian to suffer as a victim. Considering the crimes committed against Albanians occurred on a state sponsored level, and the Milosevic regime is long gone, means the chances of the Albanians suffering anytime in the recent future is pretty close to zero. However, for the Serb victims, the vast majority of the crimes committed against them occurred while the International Community was in charge and they don't seem to be able to offer any sort of assurances that this type of violence will not occur in the future. Lets be clear here, Holbrook (and the International Community) is talking about violence and war committed by Kosovar extremists and NOT Serbians.
Ahtisaari's protections contained in his proposal can be undone without the consent of the Serbian population there. All that is needed to rewrite these protections is a simple majority of the ethnic minority vote. Considering half of the minority seats are reserved for non-Serbians, this means that the municipalities can be completely abolished without a single Serbian vote to do so. This is no guarantee for the future protection of the Serbian population or heritage.
"If Moscow vetoes or delays the Ahtisaari’s plan, the Kosovo Albanians will declare independence unilaterally"
Ceku stated that he would not do this. Therefore if we take him at his word, this is a non-issue and we should not speculate on such scenarios.
There is no reason to rush to a decision (except the unreasonable threat of violence). One year was dedicated to finding a solution to a problem that has lasted nearly 1,000 years is not an unduly long period of time. We need to return to the negotiating table, with Russia's support, and find a lasting regional solution for the problems in the Balkans that includes the rights and wishes of the Albanian population in all the countries in which they live. The rights of the Kosovars are not more important then the rights of Albanians in Presevo, or Macedonia or Greece or wherever they live. Tough compromises and creative solutions should be the rule of the day. If the EU is serious about a solution to problems in the Balkans, then they need to get everyone in the region into the EU ASAP. They already run Bosnia and Kosovo. This would go very far to foster a European perspective and would serve to bring Serbians and Albanians closer together. Ahtisaari's plan as it stands is simply madness that will lead to partition and war.

NO power Skender? LOL plzzzz I mean Russia is not on top but you clearly don't realize how fast they have grown since the 90's do you?

Albanian?...no I am afraid not ....see Albanians already have their own country...I believe its called ALBANIA, NO relation to Kosovo a Serbian province...try and put the two apart. ;)

Holbrooke is a very bitter individual with a history of hatred for Serbs, presumably because someone has paid him a lot of money over the years for taking this position. NATO's illegal "intervention" against Yugoslavia 1999 is an episode that many in the USA and EU would prefer to forget. Carl Bildt is a man of integrity and his views deserve considerable creedence. The inability of the Kosovo albanians to demonstrate tolerance does not bode well for what remains of international democracy. To grant independence to "Kosova" would be a victory for bigotry, racism, and barbarity. This is not 1999 anymore, Yeltsin and his cronies have gone, this time Russia will defend justice for everyone and prevent another round of Serb-bashing.

Skender, you are wrong. Russia is very powerful right now. Also, Russia does not need any money right now. In 1999 it did. Right now it doesn't. Russia can do what it wants. It is paying off its loans in advance and is booming economically. It can cut off gas to the west an the west will be in crisis. Therefore Russia is not weak.

I don't understand the rush to read anything that comes from deciding players through black-and-white lenses. What matters is the fact that Belgrade, or its leaders at one point in time undertook massive expulsion and killing of its own citizens, albeit of a different nationality, but still its own citizens.
For almost a decade its leaders in Belgrade waged four wars and behaved as if they were a regional superpower. They lost a war they started and refuse to understand that if you lose a war you may lose a lot more than what you wanted to gain. War is gamble. You play, you pay.
What matters now is that Albanians should ensure that Kosovo Serbs should enjoy full rights, whereas Serb nationalists should come to terms with reality. After all they are precisely the people to blame for losing Kossovo.

Serbia's future, according to Holbrooke, “lies within the European Union, if it can get past its own paralyzing historical myths”.

Holbrooke's statement could use a bit deeper analysis I beleive. The idea of 1389 is to present the idea of a spiritual victory for Christian Serbs despite a physical military loss. In its best manifestation, this idea can come to encourage individuals to abandon external monetary rewards in return for altruistic rewards. In its worst form, the idea can work to incite hatred, violence, and war.

I believe that a component within the Kosovo legend needs to be re-examined. That would be the idea that Serbs also sacrificed themselves for European civilization. This is the true "myth" of Kosovo, and can cloud the reality that the member nations in the EU have never and will never make sacrifices for the welfare of Serbia. A push for an independent Kosovo by large EU powers might be a blessing in disguise as an eventual independence would provide strong evidence of this. Serbia as a new EU nation would simply be a supplier of cheap labour and a new market for goods for a bloc which is increasingly losing its competitiveness to nations like China and India.

Serbia has removed the authoritarian rule of Milosevic. A true defeat of the Kosovo legend would come not from that territory being granted independence, rather if Serbia gave up control of its destiny to larger powers for the hopes of some hypothetical monetary rewards far in the horizon. It has an opportunity now to behave as a truly indpendent, democratic state without being ruled from a neo-colonialist bloc.

Serbia once rejected to be a voluntary vassal province of the Ottoman Empire, it should now do the very same thing with the EU.

Holbrooke is wrong. How can Russia be blamed for the quagmire that the US and Nato had created from 1999 to 2007?

And if war does break out, it would be the aggressors (whether they are Albanians, Serbs or foreigners) who launched the new war and whoever supply arms to them (whether US or Russia or Martians from outer space).

Personally I don't think war would break out as the aggressors would have too much to lose, namely the condemnation of the international community. This will do more harm to the aggressors' own political goals than anything else. Holbrooke is just trying to use scare tactics on Moscow. He is scared to death that the prestige of the West will be eroded if they do not have an agreement on Kosovo

“If Russia blocks the Ahtisaari plan, the chaos that follows will be Moscow's responsibility and will affect other aspects of Russia's relationships with the West.”, Holbrooke argued."

And what makes Holbrooke so sure that chaos WOULDN'T erupt precisely because Ahtisaari's plan is allowed??? A lot of other people will now find the motivation to rekindle their so-called liberation struggles -- Albanians in Macedonia, Serbs in Bosnia, Turks in North Cyprus, Basque nationalists in Spain, Catholics in N. Ireland, Hungarians in Slovakia, Abkhazians in Georgia, Tibetans in China, Acehese in Indonesia ...... do I need to go on? All these people will find a new momentum to their liberation agendas. I find Holbrooke's logic extremely illogical.

Holbrookes comments are ridiculous.

So that would mean the US is responsible for
the problems in the Middle east when they Veto
a UN resolution against Israel?

Quote from Wikipedia:
'Holbrooke has a very aggressive style
that some find off-putting'

Amen to that.

All the arguments aside momentarily...Independence or not.

I hate to think where this thread is going to deviate.

I'd really like to stick to Holdbrooke personally..

Here is a man who clearly only comes along when needed to poke needles and gaffs at Serbia's expense....Yet, besides acting as Kosovo's saviour from Serbian tyranny and mythical Empireship...has done NOTHING to actually help out Kosovo's people in the last eight years...

I suppose he's helped out as far as Albanian's international stances are concerned, but what has he done other than antagonize at Serbia's expense??

I see a man who used the Albanians to bomb the Serbian nation...totally disregarding both Albanian and Serbian lives, knowing full well the knee-jerk reaction from Milosevic..

What interest does Holdbrooke have in this tiny corner of the world?

Democracy? Duty? 1950's CIA anti-communist doctrine? Personal wealth?

Please somebody tell me?

Why do i want to blame him for these woes just as much as i do Milosevic??

Russia has more oil and gas than the USA and those commodities spell: POWER!! Ask the Euporeans how much they would like NOT to be able to buy Russian oil and gas at reasonable prices. Western Europeans, sitting around freezing in the cold and dark with no "petrol" for the BMW would be no fun!!
As far as old man, Holbrooke goes is a has-been politician and a third rate businessman who takes money from a US based Public Relations firm that works for Albanians in Kosovo. Never trust the words of a PR man. Unless you like to be lied to. Always remember the old US saying, PR men LIKE to believe their own lies.

Russia is asserting its might as the Economist states. She is flush with oil and gas revenues, and is emerging once again as a super-power. Putin is re-asserting Russian interests in the region. It is good to see that they are not see easily cowed by western imperialist ambitions. Here in England, Russia is more respected than America. It is good to see that they are standing up for their slavic brothers as they have done in previous wars. After the great war, Kosovo was awarded to Serbia by very wise men who recognized serbian soveriegn claims over the territory of Kosovo. Kosovo is Christian land- Not Muslim. Never has been, never will be.

I guess Mr. Holbrooke and the rest of the Clinton gang are still trying to justify a failed policy. Mr. Holbrooke realizes who will be at fault for that and that's why he's so quick to blame those around him.

So the US can invade and basically destroy a country but has the gaul to blame another country for percieved future violence which is not of the other countries making.
DOUBLE STANDARDS GONE MAD

no dick, it will be - just like in the 90ies - western fault!

but a simple question: so what?

who are the albanians gonna fight?? un-cars??

they will never attack their only insurence from justice, thats why all of us are still sitting on "negotiation-tables" about science-fiction like indiependent south serbia.

It is not Moscow which has been complicit in encouraging & training of terrorist groups in the Balkans in the 90's but Holbrooke and the then US administration of Clinton
http://www.aim.org/aim_column/4897_0_3_0_C/ who trained and funded via the CIA (US) & BND (German) secret service missions http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/KLA.html the KLA terrorists who are now the political leadership http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6445023.stm [sic] of this drugs, people trafficking mafia haven that has been created in the South East of Europe. The predominantly muslim ethnic-Albanians have been egged along by the likes of Holbrooke to the point where they have said all along "independence or war". Surely, the UN Security Council should not be complicit in rewarding terrorism at the threat of violence.
Holbrooke is only too eager to stop the unraveling of what the Clinton administration started and now is brazen enough to suggest that any future violence be put squarely upon the Russians. However, the Russians have not been the ones who initiated this fracas - Holbrooke is trying to create a smoke screen for a mess of his own making! Holbrooke under Clinton's administration would probably prefer the truth over this failed "humanitarianism" does not come back to haunt the democrats next year but are only too eager to highlight Bush's failing in Iraq. It is about time that he truth regarding Kosovo & Metohija was aired - maybe at that point there might be an opportunity for real dialogue between the Serbian Government and it's ethnic-Albanian constituents - ensuring a real, peaceful & lasting solution maybe found.
Holbrooke need look no further then the mirror when apportioning blame and should have considered how his encouragement of the KLA terrorists would be counterproductive to peace & stability in the long run. At least the Germans are realising their failures (The Failure of the West's 'Ostrich' Policy) http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,471178,00.html surely it is time for the US to admit it's mistake rather then try to blame others.

ha ha ha
thats all I have to say
on a note about Russia’s oil wealth; It's all concentrated in Siberia and it will be depleted in next 20 to 30 years. What is then Russia going to barging with ?Corrupted economy? Cold Air !
Princip every time you use highly left-liberal, anarchic, anti-government articles to support your vague point, automatically you lose the argument.

Organized crime has existed in Russia for centuries.Russian Organized Crime can now be found everywhere,from US,Israel to Spain.Russians can be considered together with Italians and Colombians to be the most powerful criminals in the world.Russian criminals are active in:Fraud,money laundering,drug trafficking,weapon smuggling,car theft,white slave trafficking/prostitution,hostage taking,murder and so on and so on.Just a little reminder about how powerful Russia is!!!Cheerio.

I would just like to comment on my, albeit individual, perception of how North Americans and Western Europeans view the Serbian people. It is my experience that people of Serbian heritage are accepted and integrated into North American and Western European societies very nicely, and perhaps better than most other groups. This is partly because the Serbian people are believers in Christ and they share most of the same values as do people who were born in North America or Western Europe. Indeed, for such a small nation, all Serbian people should hold a great deal of pride in the fact that Serbs are so well represented in areas of sports, politics, and cinema worldwide and especially in North America. Thus, the notion that Americans are anti-Serb is just not true is my fundamental argument. In fact, if you were to ask most Americans on the streets of American cities what they think about the Serbian people, they would most probably say something like: "Yeah, Peja, he's awesome man. Great 3-point shooter. Great individual."

Instead, what I think the problem is here is that Serbia as a nation is still a bit foreign, and thus frankly less-important, for North American politicians and, to a lesser degree, Western European politicians. For the latter two groups probably can name a person of Serbian heritage that they know, but they simply do not know much, if anything, about the nation itself. But I think this is critical knowledge because it enables the major powers to side with Serbia on issues as important as is the Kosovo issue, if they recognize the importance that Kosovo has for the Serbian people and how Serbia, as a nation, is an extension of the Western belief system.

Serbia has been punished for protecting its interests, interests which are directly tied to its citizens not so much with economy, and yet they have been punished at every step. USA, EU, and Israel have only been pursuing economic and terretorial interests yet they receive no criticism. Any Middle-Eastern country which does not agree with US and Western policy should be on Serbias side.