The ruling of the ICJ to my opinion is appropriate however unjust seems to be. Unjust particularly for the so called the women of Srebrenica.
Appropriate for the future of the Balkan people so that we start to look each other as humans first.
People in the Balkans should rally behind the Javanoviq like politician, only than we will really punish those who committed crimes.
"Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway."
Tadic attended a memorial to the Srebrenica massacre and offered his apologies (The worst of the Serbian crimes), but last I checked Croatia still celebrated its worst crime, Operation Storm, as a national holiday, despite the presence of its Generals at the Hague for this crime. No Croatians were ethnically cleansed in Serbia itself. Have you been to Croatian Krajina recently? I certainly have, and its no picnic. The Serbian villages are still burnt out ghost towns for the most part, although a few people have returned. Please Daniel, enlighten us on what wonderful acts that Croatia has done to facilitate reconciliation? Did they even apologize for Mostar yet?
OTOH 150 killed in Krajina is not 'genocide', i.e. it is not 'substantive' enough, then OTOHe argues that no matter how many were killed in Srebrenica, that numbers don't matter and it was 'genocide'.
The ICTY rulings and their reasoning can be read on their website. Do so before commenting.
It is misguided to believe that Serbia was found innocent of involvement in Bosnia. As the official ruling (found on the ICJ website) states "...in this case we were confronted with substantial evidence of events in Bosnia and Herzegovina that may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity - but we had no jurisdiction to make findings in that regard. We have been concerned only with genocide - and, I may add, genocide in the legal sense of that term, not in the broad use of that term that is sometimes made." In addition, this ruling as well as the original ruling on Srebrenica as genocide, state that Bosnian Serbs are now the sole perpetrators of genocide in Bosnia (as Srebrenica is the only official genocide that happened there). So, this is really not good news for Republika Srpska as this ruling can be used to abolish that entity if the Bosnians play their cards right...
I love it how serbs accuse bosnians and albanians of cowardice in killing their own people while its well known that in Krajina serbian army and prime minister left 2 days before Oluja and on their way out ran over some people who were fleeing too. Such courage shown. serbs in serbia dont consider Krajina serbs as their own in any case and I find the whole thing fascinating.
As for Krajina and what happened there...its not genocide (although im sure if roles were reversed alot more than 150 civilians would have died - ie. the number Gotovina is accused of).
As for numbers in Srebrenica, whether its 4000, 6000, or 8000 is irrelevant. Main point is genocide happened and whether the number is half of what is mentioned will not reduce the horror of what happened.
All three parties have dirty hands in the war but its clear who has the dirtiest of all. Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway. What does that tell you?
I am very pessimmistic about talks in Vienna like I am very pessimmistic in this forum, we can't agree on anything.Hopefully one day this"circus" will end and then are bigger tasks ahead.Ciao!!!
(louie, Saturday, 24 February, 2007, 00:48)
Louie,
Thank you for the sincere comments. Little has been said how Albanians and Serbs lived side by side in peace until WWII broke out.
Little has been said how the Albanians were the gatekeepers of the Serbian Orthodox Church until WWII broke out.
Well, I am saying it, and it is true. In fact, the Albanians during the Ottoman Empire were instrumental in keeping the church alive under Ottoman rule.
That all changed when TITO came to power and started his false propoganda campaign and changing the true history of all Yugoslav nations.
Yes, too many events have happened since then and the new generation of Serbs and Albanians have a different version of historical events-
Yes, the course of the future cannot be stopped, and for better or worse, one Europe will come to fruition. But will it be at the expense of peace.
Mixed feelings, People are blaming Serbs for everything that happened, I feel that is completely wrong. All 3 parties have dirty hands, Croats Serbs and Bosniaks. Did the whole nation of Croatia blow up the bridge in Mostar? Did the entire Population of Serbia come to Srebenica and commit the attrocities there? No. People have to realize that the actions of a few, does not show the actions of many. For example, America is in Iraq, ruining the country, yet should we blame every American we meet and singlehandly accuse them of war in Iraq? That is stupid, and this is stupid. The only way we can get ahead is if he realize what really happened and stop playing this guilt game. we all had fucked up governments, I have cousins in Belgrade who really had no idea what was happening in Sarajevo and they wouldn't have had any idea if it hadn't been for us telling them.
@ sidi
"I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name"
Going by your logic every German is respndisble for the Holocaust, and every Albanian is responsible for the terror that happens to this day in Kosovo. Instead of letting your hate towards an ethnicity dictate what you write, I suggest you use some rational thinking while posting!
The ICJ rendered a legally sound verdict where effectively the burden of proof to hold Serbia accountable was not met. That being said, the Serbs have been tried and convicted numerous times over in the court of public opinion. Let us not lose sight of the fact that Serbs have been victims of unimaginable crimes as well;that is without diminishing the atrocities committed against Muslims. I say shame to all those involved in the Balkan wars.
Funny, it seems that fundamentalists of all ethnicities really like to post comments in English here.
a) as a Serb I am satisfied and think this is a just verdict.
b) the court ruled that Serbia does not bear any responsibility except in letting Srebrenica happen, as far as i understood the verdict. "indirect responsibility" is mostly the construct of various reporters, but allright. I can live with that.
c) Majority of Serbs actively fought the regime of the nineties, and never supported what Milosevic/Arkan/et al. did in Bosna and Kosovo.
d) I only felt provoked to publish this comment because I saw such a huge amount of stupidity among other comments here. Otherwise I wouldn't have discussed. This shows that being reasonable is inversely proportionaly to reacting in such way that other people can hear you. Therefore i expect a prevailing number of !@#$ commenters here publishing and ruining the reputation of normal majority. But, what can I do? :-/
Kudos must be given to Albanians for NOT allowing religion to separate them to the extent that it has separated the Slavs of the Balkans.The Muslims of Bosnia are the only group I am aware of in Europe who identify themselves firstly by their religious affiliation and not by their language or ethnicity.To an objective observer such as myself I cannot visibly see the difference in appearance between Bosnians,Croats and Serbs NOR can I tell the difference in the language.I would venture to state that there is probably a much greater difference betwen American English and British English.To any historian looking at the Balkans it is apparent that the Serbs are the ones who converted to Islam during Ottoman rule because I have never met a Croat who said he would have been willing to give up his Roman Catholic identity even if his life depended on it.The quarrel between the Muslim Serbs and the Christian Serbs reminds me of the atrocious conduct between the French Huguenots(Protestants) and French Catholics in the not too distant French history.RECONCILIATION must take place between all the peoples of the Balkans and move forward towards a European future.Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth.
Bosnia and Hercegovina broke away from Yugoslavia. Why? Because about 60 percent of the country wanted to be free. Now, There is an entity within Bosnia, Republika Srpska, that could very well break away. Think about what difference is 1992 Bosnia from 2007 Republika Srpska? Its 90% Serbian.
That is why you see your muslim leader advocating the abolishment of the entity. Why? Because the inevitable is about to happen. Might not be tomorrow, might not be next year... But very soon Bosnia may not exist or it might just be composed of bosanski krajina and sarajevo. cheers
Some very strange interpretations in the comments here. Each to his own.
As for 'genocide' having occurred in Bosnia, Krstic et al were convicted of 'INTENT to commit genocide', i.e. a thought crime. That is not 'genocide'.
It is really sad that to get a 'conviction', that a clearly definable concept as 'genocide' needs to be redefined and sliced like a lemon to 'fit' the 'evidence'.
Interestingly, the comments by the judges at the end of the decision tends to follow their political biases, i.e. for the anti-serbs/allies, Serbia clearly was responsible and argue, in effect, that the bar was set 'too high' for 'genocide'. Well, if it isn't set apart from the average war crime, then 'genocide' really is nothing special.
I should also add that the ICJ said that they had 'no reason to disagree with the Hague Tribunal' on Srebrenica being 'genocide', even though it was 'intent to cause genocide' and the ICTY clearly ignored the 'substantive argument' in the definition of genocide AND included men and boys of military age could be 'victims' - contrary to the original meaning of genocide. But then the ICTY was desperate for a conviction, and it was the only way to 'make up the numbers'.
The Dutch NIOD report on Srebrenica (which is on the web) states clearly that they do not know how many people were killed and there is no way of knowing, also remarks that the ArBih tried to break out of Srebrenica for Tuzla (were armed), ambushed along the route and also killed each other.
The ICTY ruling is certainly very subjective and doesn't stand up to the judgement, but I suppose that will now be left to historians...
Sidi's statement "Every Serb...." is racist. What of children who were not yet born? What of Serbs who hated what Milosevic did and who felt disgust for the murders, what of those who protested against his wicked stupidity all the way through?
This sort of generalisation is wrong - in this case it seems to be an emotional agument to justify the point of view of another racial group.
It seems to me that a law that seeks to generalise a charge of genocide to be the reponsiblily of a nation is a bad law and must be abolished. Crime is always the responsibility of the individuals who commit it.
B92 says "The case was the first time an entire nation was held to judicial account for genocide." Governments can be held to account, but to hold a nation to account in this way is in itself rascist. Nations are the people - not the government. It seems to me that the terms of this law are in of themselves racially offensive.
"Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia… The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA. Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful (Victor, Monday, 26 February, 2007, 18:31) "
Seems the court and international justice disagree with you a lot there Victor! I guess as you said just the other day, Justice will be done!
This verdict is a huge victory to the memory of those who truly suffered institutionalized Genocide in WWII.
Srebrenica was truly shameful and the Serbian government has apologized for this incident, and Tadic even attended memorials to the victims there. I personally am happy that the court recognized that what happened at Srebrenica crossed the line (Whatever treatment Serbians suffered in that area before this incident has NO bearing to what happened, that disgusts me as much as Albanian retaliatory attacks against Serbs being swept under the rug, it’s the same thing).
Now, we should focus on the Ethnic Cleansing of Krajina, which was of course fully done with the approval and backing of the Croatian government.
Also, Bosnia should lay a claim against Croatia for their actions during the war. Mostar is in ruins. Serbs suffered terribly at the hands of modern day Ustashe as well. RS should now file against Croatia if the Bosnian government doesn't have the stomach to seek justice at this time. If Kosovo attains Independence, then file against them as well. Since the idea of "Standards before Status" has been abandoned by the International Community, clearly there is a strong case against Kosovo for their current stances on human rights issues.
Krajina Serbs should file more wrongful death claims against the Croatian government. My cousin attempted to do so in the past, he's a very respected attorney in Croatia. Unfortunately, when he went to court to present his evidence, the Ustashe he was prosecuting simply showed up, threw him to the ground in the middle of the courthouse, and put a gun to his head and threatened to kill him. He's a 70 year old man, and already lived through the horrors of WWII. Thank god his life was spared because the prosecutor went to law school with him, respected him, and quickly called his contacts in the Croatian military, who called off the Ustashe. These "gentlemen" who did this to my cousin are now "respectable" policemen in Croatia. One is even a Police Captain! That's justice for you!
When do the Serbs who lived in Bosnia and suffered lost of homes and the lives of relatives at the hands of ADMITTED WAR CRIMINAL, Nasir Oric get to sue HIM for damages???
Now THAT would be something to see. He has videos of his guys doing VERY wicked deeds and he only 2 years for killing a couple of thousand Serbian Christians. When I worked as a Red Cross volunteer, I met a gal who happens to live now in Salt Lake City Utah USA. She was just a teen and was the only survivor in a village that Oric and his mongrel troops "cleansed of Serbs". Bet he would be surprised that she survived his rampage, but she did and carries the bullet fragments as a souvenir.
An interesting verdict. It is essentially aquitting Milosevic of the crime of genocide in Bosnia while convicting at least one of Mladic/Karadzic for the Srebrenica events. My sympathies go out to all war victims and families of all ethnicities today- especially Bosnian Muslim ones who may find difficulty reconciling indescribable personal loss and tragedy with an outside judgement of the events. Hopefully the ex-Yugoslav Republics will reconcile (at least economically) and prevent themelves from being exploited/ruled by larger powers.
The Court says: Serbia not directly responsible. So it means that Serbia is indirectly responsible, and the judges explained that the Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful, as Milo's wife so often said on tv, was being done on Muslims in Bosnia.
The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA.
No matter what the court says, the world knows the difference.
What would be the point in finding Serbia, that being its current political class, guilty for something that may or nay not have been the responsibility of the Milosevic regime? The Milosevic regime and todays governing class are two completely SEPARATE entities are they not?
This ruling is fair. Those responsible for the genocide were Milosevic and his SPS, not Serbia. It's the same as implicating all of Germany, or all of Turkey, for the genocide committed there - or worse, implicating Germany for the Holocaust after Nuremburg, while Adenaur was still struggling to rebuild his war-torn country. Furthermore, it would probably be the worst thing to do - worse than Kosovo - to implicate an entire country for genocide now, as a democratic coalition is still struggling to counter the strong influence from the SRS. Not surprising, some comments on this site are upset at the ruling, and those individuals believe that Serbia and its people should be collectively condemned for what they did. Well, there's little I or anyone else can do to change their opinion, but in the end this ruling also avoids the messy legal implications of other states being subsequently accused as well. It also can be seen as an indirect relief to Turkey, who also fear that fateful day when they have to face their past. By not implicating an entire nation, it places responsibility solely on those groups and organizations that directly promoted such horrible acts. You can certainly say that genocide was committed in your state, by your government, but it is an entirely different thing to say that an entire nation is responsible for that genocide. It makes it no less important, and more more forgettable, but it does make it easier for that state to come to complete terms with its past.
Sidi, you seem like a very angry individual! You have a warped and twisted view of the world! Muslims staged killing (that they blamed on Serbs)and killed many of theyre own people in Bosna, and thats a fact!!!!!
I would like this time to bring my court case against Iran, Iraq, and Syria for arming muslims in Bosnia. According to many people here because people in Serbia gave money or weapons a whole nation should be held accountable? Lets go after those mujahedins. And while we are at it, I would like to sue Turkey and seek compensation from them as well.
And by the way, Srebrenica didn't happen. How was the population before the war 10,000, during the war 10,000, and after the war 10,000? And how come 3,000 people that had supposedly been killed vote in the last election? And where are the bodies or videos? Killing 6 people is not the same as 6,000 wait i mean 8,000 no wait haven't they now said its 7,000. Make up your mind!!! Serbia is innocent, you cannot appeal this one. What we can now look forward to is Republika Srpska leaving Bosnia because you tried to whole that nationality accountable and seek compensation from them! I would start to process of breaking off. How could we ever live with them?
By the way, I just wanted to bring up the marketplace bombing. Remember that? Remember the finds being inconclusive.
Sidi, can you post a link of this Serbian racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic?
Daniel, "financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs" is what the BiH governmetn alleged, but the news article isn't specific on what the ICJ ruled on that particular matter.
If it did reach that conclusion then the same goes for the countries that supplied the Muslims and Croats with money and arms in the crimes that they committed as well.
it´s a scandalous verdict about srebrenica, but it could have come worse.
forget that the court had no right for prosecution (fry wasn´t un-member at the time), it is a clear break of un´s very own decleration about genocide.
if they run around with the (unproven) number of 8000 executed man AND the transportation of women and children to bosnian territory, than it isn´t action aimed to destroy a people. it get´s even more nonsensual, cause there was "genocide" in srebrenica (organized murder of a people), but the rest of the war was a tea-party.
for me it´s a clear alibi-nonsense for the hague-show-trial.
but this alibi-nonsense can cause the state of netherlands a lot of trouble.
Well,
I agree with Swede: the Un and the Dutch troops also should be considered guilty (the Dutch government had fallen for that reason).
That said, the judgment on the Serbs is clear
Well, that was very much expected. However, releif as much it is, the fact remains that many muslim men (the exact number is debateable) did die in what one can only called atrocities - that is something that as a Brit of Serb heritage looks on with great shame and sadness. I wish it was otherwise and would prefer that all of those who did perpertrate atrocities admitted their guilt and faced justice.
"The worst barbarity of war is that it forces men collectively to commit acts against which individually they would revolt with their whole being." ~Ellen Key
Equally, there has to be a truth about what the real events were and there should be no exageration as was the case by Western Media, it's politicians (who fuelled it for political reasons) and indivduals (eg Victor) who have some warped, biased and hateful reasoning to continue with the lies. Only when the full truth is told will everyone be able to reconciliate - something which is very much required throughout the whole region and includes this judgement in that process.
After this, any country can invade its neighbor, kill all those who don't flee, and if it is ever brought before ICJ they can use BiH vs SaM case to get away with it.
Of course the ruling would be changed. Germany was not tried as a nation at the nuremburg trials hence there is no precedence to charge Serbia as a nation since what Bosnian Serbs did can in no way be compared to the same scale as what Germans did.
Just don't forget that you need two for tango... (in this case even three)!
It's good that international court recognised that fact! No one was innocent in that war. And we all know it. But, don't know why, some parts of that terrible thing are trying to forget that...
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
Neither did UN, even tho they could have. Why not sue them or the dutch troops that were there...
The fact that this court refers to Srebrenica as a 'genocide' just goes to show what a joke the court is. Genocide is what happened to the Jews in WWII, what happened to Armenians in present day Turkey, and what happened to the Serbian population in Krajina (hundreds of years of history wiped out in one weekend) - THAT is genocide. Srebrenica is a little village and what happened there was revenge for what happened to the slaughter of Serbian civilians in the neighbouring village of Bratunac. I would like to see Clinton, Hollbrooke and Albright in the Hague for their planning and execution of Operation Storm, which is REAL Genocide.
I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name. I have never heared the Serb population apologize en-masse for the crimes that their regime committed. Save for a few voices like Jovanovic, who most Serbs brand as a traitor, most Serbs still subscribe to the racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic. As recently as yesterday there were Serbs on this very forum posting comments on the racial origins of Albanians....making it sound as if that alone is an argument for anything. As long as Serbs continue with this mentality, they are guilty in my opinion. Shame on the court, but even more shame on Serbia.
probably a result that was expected. unless milosevic and co directly came out and said "wipe them out", it was never going to be genocide ruling.
However it has reinforced the fact that serbia financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs. Thats good enough. Serbs may see that this is a victory but its not really. They were not cleared of wrong doing, its just the genocide policy that wasnt proven. Bosnia and Croatia (and eventually Kosovo when independent) can still use this to claim some serious compensation.
Of course Serbia is innocent,thank God this 14 year old pathetic story is over!So,there will be no billions of $ compensation for Bosnian Muslims...and they already planned how many new mosques they gonna build with it...
Not so much a strange ruling as as strange law. Holding a nation responsible is to hold all its members responsible - stupid in the case of all those Serbs who hated what Milosevic did.
On another point, I find it odd the Montenegro was able to withdraw itself from the case - that's a strage legal principle. It's like a gang member saying he doesn't have to go to court because he's left the gang!
I think the outcome of this case is generally appropriate. However Mladic should still give himself up because there is definitely responsibility at that level, and it continues to drag Serbia down that he has not given himself up.
«The acts committed at Srebrenica ... were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina .»
The Court comes to the same conclusion as me who is an ordinary citizen. It was so obvious that the Serbs have undergone a racial purification, as Biljana Plavsic explained to the ICTY. The judges are very conclusive: it was a GENOCIDE.
Of course, the Serbs on this forum will deny and pretend that the Court is biased, as usual, that the world is against them, that they were the victims, that they were not the aggressors, that they only killed the terrorists, that no massive raped occurred...
The world knows the difference, and the victims of this barbarity can finally rest at peace.
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
I agree with the Court. Milosevic made sure that no responsability fell on Serbia, and that he failed to stop the genocide in Srebrenica, because there was a genocide in Srebrenica.
Serbia and the Serbs though are responsible for protecting those who accomplished the genocide by harboring them or giving them other identities so they will avert justice.
Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia, living with their victims... as if nothing had happened.
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
I agree with the Court. Milosevic made sure that no responsability fell on Serbia, and that he failed to stop the genocide in Srebrenica, because there was a genocide in Srebrenica.
Serbia and the Serbs though are responsible for protecting those who accomplished the genocide by harboring them or giving them other identities so they will avert justice.
Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia, living with their victims... as if nothing had happened.
Of course Serbia is innocent,thank God this 14 year old pathetic story is over!So,there will be no billions of $ compensation for Bosnian Muslims...and they already planned how many new mosques they gonna build with it...
Not so much a strange ruling as as strange law. Holding a nation responsible is to hold all its members responsible - stupid in the case of all those Serbs who hated what Milosevic did.
On another point, I find it odd the Montenegro was able to withdraw itself from the case - that's a strage legal principle. It's like a gang member saying he doesn't have to go to court because he's left the gang!
I think the outcome of this case is generally appropriate. However Mladic should still give himself up because there is definitely responsibility at that level, and it continues to drag Serbia down that he has not given himself up.
«The acts committed at Srebrenica ... were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina .»
The Court comes to the same conclusion as me who is an ordinary citizen. It was so obvious that the Serbs have undergone a racial purification, as Biljana Plavsic explained to the ICTY. The judges are very conclusive: it was a GENOCIDE.
Of course, the Serbs on this forum will deny and pretend that the Court is biased, as usual, that the world is against them, that they were the victims, that they were not the aggressors, that they only killed the terrorists, that no massive raped occurred...
The world knows the difference, and the victims of this barbarity can finally rest at peace.
probably a result that was expected. unless milosevic and co directly came out and said "wipe them out", it was never going to be genocide ruling.
However it has reinforced the fact that serbia financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs. Thats good enough. Serbs may see that this is a victory but its not really. They were not cleared of wrong doing, its just the genocide policy that wasnt proven. Bosnia and Croatia (and eventually Kosovo when independent) can still use this to claim some serious compensation.
I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name. I have never heared the Serb population apologize en-masse for the crimes that their regime committed. Save for a few voices like Jovanovic, who most Serbs brand as a traitor, most Serbs still subscribe to the racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic. As recently as yesterday there were Serbs on this very forum posting comments on the racial origins of Albanians....making it sound as if that alone is an argument for anything. As long as Serbs continue with this mentality, they are guilty in my opinion. Shame on the court, but even more shame on Serbia.
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
Neither did UN, even tho they could have. Why not sue them or the dutch troops that were there...
Just don't forget that you need two for tango... (in this case even three)!
It's good that international court recognised that fact! No one was innocent in that war. And we all know it. But, don't know why, some parts of that terrible thing are trying to forget that...
The fact that this court refers to Srebrenica as a 'genocide' just goes to show what a joke the court is. Genocide is what happened to the Jews in WWII, what happened to Armenians in present day Turkey, and what happened to the Serbian population in Krajina (hundreds of years of history wiped out in one weekend) - THAT is genocide. Srebrenica is a little village and what happened there was revenge for what happened to the slaughter of Serbian civilians in the neighbouring village of Bratunac. I would like to see Clinton, Hollbrooke and Albright in the Hague for their planning and execution of Operation Storm, which is REAL Genocide.
Well, that was very much expected. However, releif as much it is, the fact remains that many muslim men (the exact number is debateable) did die in what one can only called atrocities - that is something that as a Brit of Serb heritage looks on with great shame and sadness. I wish it was otherwise and would prefer that all of those who did perpertrate atrocities admitted their guilt and faced justice.
"The worst barbarity of war is that it forces men collectively to commit acts against which individually they would revolt with their whole being." ~Ellen Key
Equally, there has to be a truth about what the real events were and there should be no exageration as was the case by Western Media, it's politicians (who fuelled it for political reasons) and indivduals (eg Victor) who have some warped, biased and hateful reasoning to continue with the lies. Only when the full truth is told will everyone be able to reconciliate - something which is very much required throughout the whole region and includes this judgement in that process.
Of course the ruling would be changed. Germany was not tried as a nation at the nuremburg trials hence there is no precedence to charge Serbia as a nation since what Bosnian Serbs did can in no way be compared to the same scale as what Germans did.
After this, any country can invade its neighbor, kill all those who don't flee, and if it is ever brought before ICJ they can use BiH vs SaM case to get away with it.
Sidi, can you post a link of this Serbian racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic?
Daniel, "financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs" is what the BiH governmetn alleged, but the news article isn't specific on what the ICJ ruled on that particular matter.
If it did reach that conclusion then the same goes for the countries that supplied the Muslims and Croats with money and arms in the crimes that they committed as well.
Well,
I agree with Swede: the Un and the Dutch troops also should be considered guilty (the Dutch government had fallen for that reason).
That said, the judgment on the Serbs is clear
it´s a scandalous verdict about srebrenica, but it could have come worse.
forget that the court had no right for prosecution (fry wasn´t un-member at the time), it is a clear break of un´s very own decleration about genocide.
if they run around with the (unproven) number of 8000 executed man AND the transportation of women and children to bosnian territory, than it isn´t action aimed to destroy a people. it get´s even more nonsensual, cause there was "genocide" in srebrenica (organized murder of a people), but the rest of the war was a tea-party.
for me it´s a clear alibi-nonsense for the hague-show-trial.
but this alibi-nonsense can cause the state of netherlands a lot of trouble.
I would like this time to bring my court case against Iran, Iraq, and Syria for arming muslims in Bosnia. According to many people here because people in Serbia gave money or weapons a whole nation should be held accountable? Lets go after those mujahedins. And while we are at it, I would like to sue Turkey and seek compensation from them as well.
And by the way, Srebrenica didn't happen. How was the population before the war 10,000, during the war 10,000, and after the war 10,000? And how come 3,000 people that had supposedly been killed vote in the last election? And where are the bodies or videos? Killing 6 people is not the same as 6,000 wait i mean 8,000 no wait haven't they now said its 7,000. Make up your mind!!! Serbia is innocent, you cannot appeal this one. What we can now look forward to is Republika Srpska leaving Bosnia because you tried to whole that nationality accountable and seek compensation from them! I would start to process of breaking off. How could we ever live with them?
By the way, I just wanted to bring up the marketplace bombing. Remember that? Remember the finds being inconclusive.
Sidi, you seem like a very angry individual! You have a warped and twisted view of the world! Muslims staged killing (that they blamed on Serbs)and killed many of theyre own people in Bosna, and thats a fact!!!!!
This ruling is fair. Those responsible for the genocide were Milosevic and his SPS, not Serbia. It's the same as implicating all of Germany, or all of Turkey, for the genocide committed there - or worse, implicating Germany for the Holocaust after Nuremburg, while Adenaur was still struggling to rebuild his war-torn country. Furthermore, it would probably be the worst thing to do - worse than Kosovo - to implicate an entire country for genocide now, as a democratic coalition is still struggling to counter the strong influence from the SRS. Not surprising, some comments on this site are upset at the ruling, and those individuals believe that Serbia and its people should be collectively condemned for what they did. Well, there's little I or anyone else can do to change their opinion, but in the end this ruling also avoids the messy legal implications of other states being subsequently accused as well. It also can be seen as an indirect relief to Turkey, who also fear that fateful day when they have to face their past. By not implicating an entire nation, it places responsibility solely on those groups and organizations that directly promoted such horrible acts. You can certainly say that genocide was committed in your state, by your government, but it is an entirely different thing to say that an entire nation is responsible for that genocide. It makes it no less important, and more more forgettable, but it does make it easier for that state to come to complete terms with its past.
The Court says: Serbia not directly responsible. So it means that Serbia is indirectly responsible, and the judges explained that the Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful, as Milo's wife so often said on tv, was being done on Muslims in Bosnia.
The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA.
No matter what the court says, the world knows the difference.
What would be the point in finding Serbia, that being its current political class, guilty for something that may or nay not have been the responsibility of the Milosevic regime? The Milosevic regime and todays governing class are two completely SEPARATE entities are they not?
An interesting verdict. It is essentially aquitting Milosevic of the crime of genocide in Bosnia while convicting at least one of Mladic/Karadzic for the Srebrenica events. My sympathies go out to all war victims and families of all ethnicities today- especially Bosnian Muslim ones who may find difficulty reconciling indescribable personal loss and tragedy with an outside judgement of the events. Hopefully the ex-Yugoslav Republics will reconcile (at least economically) and prevent themelves from being exploited/ruled by larger powers.
When do the Serbs who lived in Bosnia and suffered lost of homes and the lives of relatives at the hands of ADMITTED WAR CRIMINAL, Nasir Oric get to sue HIM for damages???
Now THAT would be something to see. He has videos of his guys doing VERY wicked deeds and he only 2 years for killing a couple of thousand Serbian Christians. When I worked as a Red Cross volunteer, I met a gal who happens to live now in Salt Lake City Utah USA. She was just a teen and was the only survivor in a village that Oric and his mongrel troops "cleansed of Serbs". Bet he would be surprised that she survived his rampage, but she did and carries the bullet fragments as a souvenir.
"Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia… The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA. Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful (Victor, Monday, 26 February, 2007, 18:31) "
Seems the court and international justice disagree with you a lot there Victor! I guess as you said just the other day, Justice will be done!
This verdict is a huge victory to the memory of those who truly suffered institutionalized Genocide in WWII.
Srebrenica was truly shameful and the Serbian government has apologized for this incident, and Tadic even attended memorials to the victims there. I personally am happy that the court recognized that what happened at Srebrenica crossed the line (Whatever treatment Serbians suffered in that area before this incident has NO bearing to what happened, that disgusts me as much as Albanian retaliatory attacks against Serbs being swept under the rug, it’s the same thing).
Now, we should focus on the Ethnic Cleansing of Krajina, which was of course fully done with the approval and backing of the Croatian government.
Also, Bosnia should lay a claim against Croatia for their actions during the war. Mostar is in ruins. Serbs suffered terribly at the hands of modern day Ustashe as well. RS should now file against Croatia if the Bosnian government doesn't have the stomach to seek justice at this time. If Kosovo attains Independence, then file against them as well. Since the idea of "Standards before Status" has been abandoned by the International Community, clearly there is a strong case against Kosovo for their current stances on human rights issues.
Krajina Serbs should file more wrongful death claims against the Croatian government. My cousin attempted to do so in the past, he's a very respected attorney in Croatia. Unfortunately, when he went to court to present his evidence, the Ustashe he was prosecuting simply showed up, threw him to the ground in the middle of the courthouse, and put a gun to his head and threatened to kill him. He's a 70 year old man, and already lived through the horrors of WWII. Thank god his life was spared because the prosecutor went to law school with him, respected him, and quickly called his contacts in the Croatian military, who called off the Ustashe. These "gentlemen" who did this to my cousin are now "respectable" policemen in Croatia. One is even a Police Captain! That's justice for you!
Sidi's statement "Every Serb...." is racist. What of children who were not yet born? What of Serbs who hated what Milosevic did and who felt disgust for the murders, what of those who protested against his wicked stupidity all the way through?
This sort of generalisation is wrong - in this case it seems to be an emotional agument to justify the point of view of another racial group.
It seems to me that a law that seeks to generalise a charge of genocide to be the reponsiblily of a nation is a bad law and must be abolished. Crime is always the responsibility of the individuals who commit it.
B92 says "The case was the first time an entire nation was held to judicial account for genocide." Governments can be held to account, but to hold a nation to account in this way is in itself rascist. Nations are the people - not the government. It seems to me that the terms of this law are in of themselves racially offensive.
Bosnia and Hercegovina broke away from Yugoslavia. Why? Because about 60 percent of the country wanted to be free. Now, There is an entity within Bosnia, Republika Srpska, that could very well break away. Think about what difference is 1992 Bosnia from 2007 Republika Srpska? Its 90% Serbian.
That is why you see your muslim leader advocating the abolishment of the entity. Why? Because the inevitable is about to happen. Might not be tomorrow, might not be next year... But very soon Bosnia may not exist or it might just be composed of bosanski krajina and sarajevo. cheers
Some very strange interpretations in the comments here. Each to his own.
As for 'genocide' having occurred in Bosnia, Krstic et al were convicted of 'INTENT to commit genocide', i.e. a thought crime. That is not 'genocide'.
It is really sad that to get a 'conviction', that a clearly definable concept as 'genocide' needs to be redefined and sliced like a lemon to 'fit' the 'evidence'.
Interestingly, the comments by the judges at the end of the decision tends to follow their political biases, i.e. for the anti-serbs/allies, Serbia clearly was responsible and argue, in effect, that the bar was set 'too high' for 'genocide'. Well, if it isn't set apart from the average war crime, then 'genocide' really is nothing special.
I should also add that the ICJ said that they had 'no reason to disagree with the Hague Tribunal' on Srebrenica being 'genocide', even though it was 'intent to cause genocide' and the ICTY clearly ignored the 'substantive argument' in the definition of genocide AND included men and boys of military age could be 'victims' - contrary to the original meaning of genocide. But then the ICTY was desperate for a conviction, and it was the only way to 'make up the numbers'.
The Dutch NIOD report on Srebrenica (which is on the web) states clearly that they do not know how many people were killed and there is no way of knowing, also remarks that the ArBih tried to break out of Srebrenica for Tuzla (were armed), ambushed along the route and also killed each other.
The ICTY ruling is certainly very subjective and doesn't stand up to the judgement, but I suppose that will now be left to historians...
Kudos must be given to Albanians for NOT allowing religion to separate them to the extent that it has separated the Slavs of the Balkans.The Muslims of Bosnia are the only group I am aware of in Europe who identify themselves firstly by their religious affiliation and not by their language or ethnicity.To an objective observer such as myself I cannot visibly see the difference in appearance between Bosnians,Croats and Serbs NOR can I tell the difference in the language.I would venture to state that there is probably a much greater difference betwen American English and British English.To any historian looking at the Balkans it is apparent that the Serbs are the ones who converted to Islam during Ottoman rule because I have never met a Croat who said he would have been willing to give up his Roman Catholic identity even if his life depended on it.The quarrel between the Muslim Serbs and the Christian Serbs reminds me of the atrocious conduct between the French Huguenots(Protestants) and French Catholics in the not too distant French history.RECONCILIATION must take place between all the peoples of the Balkans and move forward towards a European future.Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth.
Funny, it seems that fundamentalists of all ethnicities really like to post comments in English here.
a) as a Serb I am satisfied and think this is a just verdict.
b) the court ruled that Serbia does not bear any responsibility except in letting Srebrenica happen, as far as i understood the verdict. "indirect responsibility" is mostly the construct of various reporters, but allright. I can live with that.
c) Majority of Serbs actively fought the regime of the nineties, and never supported what Milosevic/Arkan/et al. did in Bosna and Kosovo.
d) I only felt provoked to publish this comment because I saw such a huge amount of stupidity among other comments here. Otherwise I wouldn't have discussed. This shows that being reasonable is inversely proportionaly to reacting in such way that other people can hear you. Therefore i expect a prevailing number of !@#$ commenters here publishing and ruining the reputation of normal majority. But, what can I do? :-/
The ICJ rendered a legally sound verdict where effectively the burden of proof to hold Serbia accountable was not met. That being said, the Serbs have been tried and convicted numerous times over in the court of public opinion. Let us not lose sight of the fact that Serbs have been victims of unimaginable crimes as well;that is without diminishing the atrocities committed against Muslims. I say shame to all those involved in the Balkan wars.
@ sidi
"I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name"
Going by your logic every German is respndisble for the Holocaust, and every Albanian is responsible for the terror that happens to this day in Kosovo. Instead of letting your hate towards an ethnicity dictate what you write, I suggest you use some rational thinking while posting!
Mixed feelings, People are blaming Serbs for everything that happened, I feel that is completely wrong. All 3 parties have dirty hands, Croats Serbs and Bosniaks. Did the whole nation of Croatia blow up the bridge in Mostar? Did the entire Population of Serbia come to Srebenica and commit the attrocities there? No. People have to realize that the actions of a few, does not show the actions of many. For example, America is in Iraq, ruining the country, yet should we blame every American we meet and singlehandly accuse them of war in Iraq? That is stupid, and this is stupid. The only way we can get ahead is if he realize what really happened and stop playing this guilt game. we all had fucked up governments, I have cousins in Belgrade who really had no idea what was happening in Sarajevo and they wouldn't have had any idea if it hadn't been for us telling them.
I am very pessimmistic about talks in Vienna like I am very pessimmistic in this forum, we can't agree on anything.Hopefully one day this"circus" will end and then are bigger tasks ahead.Ciao!!!
(louie, Saturday, 24 February, 2007, 00:48)
Louie,
Thank you for the sincere comments. Little has been said how Albanians and Serbs lived side by side in peace until WWII broke out.
Little has been said how the Albanians were the gatekeepers of the Serbian Orthodox Church until WWII broke out.
Well, I am saying it, and it is true. In fact, the Albanians during the Ottoman Empire were instrumental in keeping the church alive under Ottoman rule.
That all changed when TITO came to power and started his false propoganda campaign and changing the true history of all Yugoslav nations.
Yes, too many events have happened since then and the new generation of Serbs and Albanians have a different version of historical events-
Yes, the course of the future cannot be stopped, and for better or worse, one Europe will come to fruition. But will it be at the expense of peace.
I love it how serbs accuse bosnians and albanians of cowardice in killing their own people while its well known that in Krajina serbian army and prime minister left 2 days before Oluja and on their way out ran over some people who were fleeing too. Such courage shown. serbs in serbia dont consider Krajina serbs as their own in any case and I find the whole thing fascinating.
As for Krajina and what happened there...its not genocide (although im sure if roles were reversed alot more than 150 civilians would have died - ie. the number Gotovina is accused of).
As for numbers in Srebrenica, whether its 4000, 6000, or 8000 is irrelevant. Main point is genocide happened and whether the number is half of what is mentioned will not reduce the horror of what happened.
All three parties have dirty hands in the war but its clear who has the dirtiest of all. Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway. What does that tell you?
It is misguided to believe that Serbia was found innocent of involvement in Bosnia. As the official ruling (found on the ICJ website) states "...in this case we were confronted with substantial evidence of events in Bosnia and Herzegovina that may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity - but we had no jurisdiction to make findings in that regard. We have been concerned only with genocide - and, I may add, genocide in the legal sense of that term, not in the broad use of that term that is sometimes made." In addition, this ruling as well as the original ruling on Srebrenica as genocide, state that Bosnian Serbs are now the sole perpetrators of genocide in Bosnia (as Srebrenica is the only official genocide that happened there). So, this is really not good news for Republika Srpska as this ruling can be used to abolish that entity if the Bosnians play their cards right...
OTOH 150 killed in Krajina is not 'genocide', i.e. it is not 'substantive' enough, then OTOHe argues that no matter how many were killed in Srebrenica, that numbers don't matter and it was 'genocide'.
The ICTY rulings and their reasoning can be read on their website. Do so before commenting.
"Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway."
Tadic attended a memorial to the Srebrenica massacre and offered his apologies (The worst of the Serbian crimes), but last I checked Croatia still celebrated its worst crime, Operation Storm, as a national holiday, despite the presence of its Generals at the Hague for this crime. No Croatians were ethnically cleansed in Serbia itself. Have you been to Croatian Krajina recently? I certainly have, and its no picnic. The Serbian villages are still burnt out ghost towns for the most part, although a few people have returned. Please Daniel, enlighten us on what wonderful acts that Croatia has done to facilitate reconciliation? Did they even apologize for Mostar yet?
The ruling of the ICJ to my opinion is appropriate however unjust seems to be. Unjust particularly for the so called the women of Srebrenica.
Appropriate for the future of the Balkan people so that we start to look each other as humans first.
People in the Balkans should rally behind the Javanoviq like politician, only than we will really punish those who committed crimes.
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
I agree with the Court. Milosevic made sure that no responsability fell on Serbia, and that he failed to stop the genocide in Srebrenica, because there was a genocide in Srebrenica.
Serbia and the Serbs though are responsible for protecting those who accomplished the genocide by harboring them or giving them other identities so they will avert justice.
Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia, living with their victims... as if nothing had happened.
Of course Serbia is innocent,thank God this 14 year old pathetic story is over!So,there will be no billions of $ compensation for Bosnian Muslims...and they already planned how many new mosques they gonna build with it...
Not so much a strange ruling as as strange law. Holding a nation responsible is to hold all its members responsible - stupid in the case of all those Serbs who hated what Milosevic did.
On another point, I find it odd the Montenegro was able to withdraw itself from the case - that's a strage legal principle. It's like a gang member saying he doesn't have to go to court because he's left the gang!
I think the outcome of this case is generally appropriate. However Mladic should still give himself up because there is definitely responsibility at that level, and it continues to drag Serbia down that he has not given himself up.
«The acts committed at Srebrenica ... were committed with the specific intent to destroy in part the group of the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina .»
The Court comes to the same conclusion as me who is an ordinary citizen. It was so obvious that the Serbs have undergone a racial purification, as Biljana Plavsic explained to the ICTY. The judges are very conclusive: it was a GENOCIDE.
Of course, the Serbs on this forum will deny and pretend that the Court is biased, as usual, that the world is against them, that they were the victims, that they were not the aggressors, that they only killed the terrorists, that no massive raped occurred...
The world knows the difference, and the victims of this barbarity can finally rest at peace.
probably a result that was expected. unless milosevic and co directly came out and said "wipe them out", it was never going to be genocide ruling.
However it has reinforced the fact that serbia financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs. Thats good enough. Serbs may see that this is a victory but its not really. They were not cleared of wrong doing, its just the genocide policy that wasnt proven. Bosnia and Croatia (and eventually Kosovo when independent) can still use this to claim some serious compensation.
I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name. I have never heared the Serb population apologize en-masse for the crimes that their regime committed. Save for a few voices like Jovanovic, who most Serbs brand as a traitor, most Serbs still subscribe to the racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic. As recently as yesterday there were Serbs on this very forum posting comments on the racial origins of Albanians....making it sound as if that alone is an argument for anything. As long as Serbs continue with this mentality, they are guilty in my opinion. Shame on the court, but even more shame on Serbia.
" Serbia has not shown that it took any initiative to prevent what happened or any action on its part to avert the atrocities which were being committed."
Neither did UN, even tho they could have. Why not sue them or the dutch troops that were there...
Just don't forget that you need two for tango... (in this case even three)!
It's good that international court recognised that fact! No one was innocent in that war. And we all know it. But, don't know why, some parts of that terrible thing are trying to forget that...
The fact that this court refers to Srebrenica as a 'genocide' just goes to show what a joke the court is. Genocide is what happened to the Jews in WWII, what happened to Armenians in present day Turkey, and what happened to the Serbian population in Krajina (hundreds of years of history wiped out in one weekend) - THAT is genocide. Srebrenica is a little village and what happened there was revenge for what happened to the slaughter of Serbian civilians in the neighbouring village of Bratunac. I would like to see Clinton, Hollbrooke and Albright in the Hague for their planning and execution of Operation Storm, which is REAL Genocide.
Well, that was very much expected. However, releif as much it is, the fact remains that many muslim men (the exact number is debateable) did die in what one can only called atrocities - that is something that as a Brit of Serb heritage looks on with great shame and sadness. I wish it was otherwise and would prefer that all of those who did perpertrate atrocities admitted their guilt and faced justice.
"The worst barbarity of war is that it forces men collectively to commit acts against which individually they would revolt with their whole being." ~Ellen Key
Equally, there has to be a truth about what the real events were and there should be no exageration as was the case by Western Media, it's politicians (who fuelled it for political reasons) and indivduals (eg Victor) who have some warped, biased and hateful reasoning to continue with the lies. Only when the full truth is told will everyone be able to reconciliate - something which is very much required throughout the whole region and includes this judgement in that process.
Of course the ruling would be changed. Germany was not tried as a nation at the nuremburg trials hence there is no precedence to charge Serbia as a nation since what Bosnian Serbs did can in no way be compared to the same scale as what Germans did.
After this, any country can invade its neighbor, kill all those who don't flee, and if it is ever brought before ICJ they can use BiH vs SaM case to get away with it.
Sidi, can you post a link of this Serbian racial superiority theory advocated by Milosevic?
Daniel, "financed and gave weapons to Bosnian Serbs" is what the BiH governmetn alleged, but the news article isn't specific on what the ICJ ruled on that particular matter.
If it did reach that conclusion then the same goes for the countries that supplied the Muslims and Croats with money and arms in the crimes that they committed as well.
Well,
I agree with Swede: the Un and the Dutch troops also should be considered guilty (the Dutch government had fallen for that reason).
That said, the judgment on the Serbs is clear
it´s a scandalous verdict about srebrenica, but it could have come worse.
forget that the court had no right for prosecution (fry wasn´t un-member at the time), it is a clear break of un´s very own decleration about genocide.
if they run around with the (unproven) number of 8000 executed man AND the transportation of women and children to bosnian territory, than it isn´t action aimed to destroy a people. it get´s even more nonsensual, cause there was "genocide" in srebrenica (organized murder of a people), but the rest of the war was a tea-party.
for me it´s a clear alibi-nonsense for the hague-show-trial.
but this alibi-nonsense can cause the state of netherlands a lot of trouble.
I would like this time to bring my court case against Iran, Iraq, and Syria for arming muslims in Bosnia. According to many people here because people in Serbia gave money or weapons a whole nation should be held accountable? Lets go after those mujahedins. And while we are at it, I would like to sue Turkey and seek compensation from them as well.
And by the way, Srebrenica didn't happen. How was the population before the war 10,000, during the war 10,000, and after the war 10,000? And how come 3,000 people that had supposedly been killed vote in the last election? And where are the bodies or videos? Killing 6 people is not the same as 6,000 wait i mean 8,000 no wait haven't they now said its 7,000. Make up your mind!!! Serbia is innocent, you cannot appeal this one. What we can now look forward to is Republika Srpska leaving Bosnia because you tried to whole that nationality accountable and seek compensation from them! I would start to process of breaking off. How could we ever live with them?
By the way, I just wanted to bring up the marketplace bombing. Remember that? Remember the finds being inconclusive.
Sidi, you seem like a very angry individual! You have a warped and twisted view of the world! Muslims staged killing (that they blamed on Serbs)and killed many of theyre own people in Bosna, and thats a fact!!!!!
This ruling is fair. Those responsible for the genocide were Milosevic and his SPS, not Serbia. It's the same as implicating all of Germany, or all of Turkey, for the genocide committed there - or worse, implicating Germany for the Holocaust after Nuremburg, while Adenaur was still struggling to rebuild his war-torn country. Furthermore, it would probably be the worst thing to do - worse than Kosovo - to implicate an entire country for genocide now, as a democratic coalition is still struggling to counter the strong influence from the SRS. Not surprising, some comments on this site are upset at the ruling, and those individuals believe that Serbia and its people should be collectively condemned for what they did. Well, there's little I or anyone else can do to change their opinion, but in the end this ruling also avoids the messy legal implications of other states being subsequently accused as well. It also can be seen as an indirect relief to Turkey, who also fear that fateful day when they have to face their past. By not implicating an entire nation, it places responsibility solely on those groups and organizations that directly promoted such horrible acts. You can certainly say that genocide was committed in your state, by your government, but it is an entirely different thing to say that an entire nation is responsible for that genocide. It makes it no less important, and more more forgettable, but it does make it easier for that state to come to complete terms with its past.
The Court says: Serbia not directly responsible. So it means that Serbia is indirectly responsible, and the judges explained that the Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful, as Milo's wife so often said on tv, was being done on Muslims in Bosnia.
The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA.
No matter what the court says, the world knows the difference.
What would be the point in finding Serbia, that being its current political class, guilty for something that may or nay not have been the responsibility of the Milosevic regime? The Milosevic regime and todays governing class are two completely SEPARATE entities are they not?
An interesting verdict. It is essentially aquitting Milosevic of the crime of genocide in Bosnia while convicting at least one of Mladic/Karadzic for the Srebrenica events. My sympathies go out to all war victims and families of all ethnicities today- especially Bosnian Muslim ones who may find difficulty reconciling indescribable personal loss and tragedy with an outside judgement of the events. Hopefully the ex-Yugoslav Republics will reconcile (at least economically) and prevent themelves from being exploited/ruled by larger powers.
When do the Serbs who lived in Bosnia and suffered lost of homes and the lives of relatives at the hands of ADMITTED WAR CRIMINAL, Nasir Oric get to sue HIM for damages???
Now THAT would be something to see. He has videos of his guys doing VERY wicked deeds and he only 2 years for killing a couple of thousand Serbian Christians. When I worked as a Red Cross volunteer, I met a gal who happens to live now in Salt Lake City Utah USA. She was just a teen and was the only survivor in a village that Oric and his mongrel troops "cleansed of Serbs". Bet he would be surprised that she survived his rampage, but she did and carries the bullet fragments as a souvenir.
"Thousands of war criminals are free across Serbia and Bosnia… The Serbs from Bosnia perpetrated a genocide with the help of the Serbs from Serbia in order to create GREATER SERBIA. Serbs from Serbia knew well what crimes were perpetrated in Bosnia, starting with Milosevic, and all kept sillence and pretended that nothing harmful (Victor, Monday, 26 February, 2007, 18:31) "
Seems the court and international justice disagree with you a lot there Victor! I guess as you said just the other day, Justice will be done!
This verdict is a huge victory to the memory of those who truly suffered institutionalized Genocide in WWII.
Srebrenica was truly shameful and the Serbian government has apologized for this incident, and Tadic even attended memorials to the victims there. I personally am happy that the court recognized that what happened at Srebrenica crossed the line (Whatever treatment Serbians suffered in that area before this incident has NO bearing to what happened, that disgusts me as much as Albanian retaliatory attacks against Serbs being swept under the rug, it’s the same thing).
Now, we should focus on the Ethnic Cleansing of Krajina, which was of course fully done with the approval and backing of the Croatian government.
Also, Bosnia should lay a claim against Croatia for their actions during the war. Mostar is in ruins. Serbs suffered terribly at the hands of modern day Ustashe as well. RS should now file against Croatia if the Bosnian government doesn't have the stomach to seek justice at this time. If Kosovo attains Independence, then file against them as well. Since the idea of "Standards before Status" has been abandoned by the International Community, clearly there is a strong case against Kosovo for their current stances on human rights issues.
Krajina Serbs should file more wrongful death claims against the Croatian government. My cousin attempted to do so in the past, he's a very respected attorney in Croatia. Unfortunately, when he went to court to present his evidence, the Ustashe he was prosecuting simply showed up, threw him to the ground in the middle of the courthouse, and put a gun to his head and threatened to kill him. He's a 70 year old man, and already lived through the horrors of WWII. Thank god his life was spared because the prosecutor went to law school with him, respected him, and quickly called his contacts in the Croatian military, who called off the Ustashe. These "gentlemen" who did this to my cousin are now "respectable" policemen in Croatia. One is even a Police Captain! That's justice for you!
Sidi's statement "Every Serb...." is racist. What of children who were not yet born? What of Serbs who hated what Milosevic did and who felt disgust for the murders, what of those who protested against his wicked stupidity all the way through?
This sort of generalisation is wrong - in this case it seems to be an emotional agument to justify the point of view of another racial group.
It seems to me that a law that seeks to generalise a charge of genocide to be the reponsiblily of a nation is a bad law and must be abolished. Crime is always the responsibility of the individuals who commit it.
B92 says "The case was the first time an entire nation was held to judicial account for genocide." Governments can be held to account, but to hold a nation to account in this way is in itself rascist. Nations are the people - not the government. It seems to me that the terms of this law are in of themselves racially offensive.
Bosnia and Hercegovina broke away from Yugoslavia. Why? Because about 60 percent of the country wanted to be free. Now, There is an entity within Bosnia, Republika Srpska, that could very well break away. Think about what difference is 1992 Bosnia from 2007 Republika Srpska? Its 90% Serbian.
That is why you see your muslim leader advocating the abolishment of the entity. Why? Because the inevitable is about to happen. Might not be tomorrow, might not be next year... But very soon Bosnia may not exist or it might just be composed of bosanski krajina and sarajevo. cheers
Some very strange interpretations in the comments here. Each to his own.
As for 'genocide' having occurred in Bosnia, Krstic et al were convicted of 'INTENT to commit genocide', i.e. a thought crime. That is not 'genocide'.
It is really sad that to get a 'conviction', that a clearly definable concept as 'genocide' needs to be redefined and sliced like a lemon to 'fit' the 'evidence'.
Interestingly, the comments by the judges at the end of the decision tends to follow their political biases, i.e. for the anti-serbs/allies, Serbia clearly was responsible and argue, in effect, that the bar was set 'too high' for 'genocide'. Well, if it isn't set apart from the average war crime, then 'genocide' really is nothing special.
I should also add that the ICJ said that they had 'no reason to disagree with the Hague Tribunal' on Srebrenica being 'genocide', even though it was 'intent to cause genocide' and the ICTY clearly ignored the 'substantive argument' in the definition of genocide AND included men and boys of military age could be 'victims' - contrary to the original meaning of genocide. But then the ICTY was desperate for a conviction, and it was the only way to 'make up the numbers'.
The Dutch NIOD report on Srebrenica (which is on the web) states clearly that they do not know how many people were killed and there is no way of knowing, also remarks that the ArBih tried to break out of Srebrenica for Tuzla (were armed), ambushed along the route and also killed each other.
The ICTY ruling is certainly very subjective and doesn't stand up to the judgement, but I suppose that will now be left to historians...
Kudos must be given to Albanians for NOT allowing religion to separate them to the extent that it has separated the Slavs of the Balkans.The Muslims of Bosnia are the only group I am aware of in Europe who identify themselves firstly by their religious affiliation and not by their language or ethnicity.To an objective observer such as myself I cannot visibly see the difference in appearance between Bosnians,Croats and Serbs NOR can I tell the difference in the language.I would venture to state that there is probably a much greater difference betwen American English and British English.To any historian looking at the Balkans it is apparent that the Serbs are the ones who converted to Islam during Ottoman rule because I have never met a Croat who said he would have been willing to give up his Roman Catholic identity even if his life depended on it.The quarrel between the Muslim Serbs and the Christian Serbs reminds me of the atrocious conduct between the French Huguenots(Protestants) and French Catholics in the not too distant French history.RECONCILIATION must take place between all the peoples of the Balkans and move forward towards a European future.Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth.
Funny, it seems that fundamentalists of all ethnicities really like to post comments in English here.
a) as a Serb I am satisfied and think this is a just verdict.
b) the court ruled that Serbia does not bear any responsibility except in letting Srebrenica happen, as far as i understood the verdict. "indirect responsibility" is mostly the construct of various reporters, but allright. I can live with that.
c) Majority of Serbs actively fought the regime of the nineties, and never supported what Milosevic/Arkan/et al. did in Bosna and Kosovo.
d) I only felt provoked to publish this comment because I saw such a huge amount of stupidity among other comments here. Otherwise I wouldn't have discussed. This shows that being reasonable is inversely proportionaly to reacting in such way that other people can hear you. Therefore i expect a prevailing number of !@#$ commenters here publishing and ruining the reputation of normal majority. But, what can I do? :-/
The ICJ rendered a legally sound verdict where effectively the burden of proof to hold Serbia accountable was not met. That being said, the Serbs have been tried and convicted numerous times over in the court of public opinion. Let us not lose sight of the fact that Serbs have been victims of unimaginable crimes as well;that is without diminishing the atrocities committed against Muslims. I say shame to all those involved in the Balkan wars.
@ sidi
"I find this ruling flagrantly inappropriate. Every single Serb, inside and outside Serbia is responsible for the crimes committed in their name"
Going by your logic every German is respndisble for the Holocaust, and every Albanian is responsible for the terror that happens to this day in Kosovo. Instead of letting your hate towards an ethnicity dictate what you write, I suggest you use some rational thinking while posting!
Mixed feelings, People are blaming Serbs for everything that happened, I feel that is completely wrong. All 3 parties have dirty hands, Croats Serbs and Bosniaks. Did the whole nation of Croatia blow up the bridge in Mostar? Did the entire Population of Serbia come to Srebenica and commit the attrocities there? No. People have to realize that the actions of a few, does not show the actions of many. For example, America is in Iraq, ruining the country, yet should we blame every American we meet and singlehandly accuse them of war in Iraq? That is stupid, and this is stupid. The only way we can get ahead is if he realize what really happened and stop playing this guilt game. we all had fucked up governments, I have cousins in Belgrade who really had no idea what was happening in Sarajevo and they wouldn't have had any idea if it hadn't been for us telling them.
I am very pessimmistic about talks in Vienna like I am very pessimmistic in this forum, we can't agree on anything.Hopefully one day this"circus" will end and then are bigger tasks ahead.Ciao!!!
(louie, Saturday, 24 February, 2007, 00:48)
Louie,
Thank you for the sincere comments. Little has been said how Albanians and Serbs lived side by side in peace until WWII broke out.
Little has been said how the Albanians were the gatekeepers of the Serbian Orthodox Church until WWII broke out.
Well, I am saying it, and it is true. In fact, the Albanians during the Ottoman Empire were instrumental in keeping the church alive under Ottoman rule.
That all changed when TITO came to power and started his false propoganda campaign and changing the true history of all Yugoslav nations.
Yes, too many events have happened since then and the new generation of Serbs and Albanians have a different version of historical events-
Yes, the course of the future cannot be stopped, and for better or worse, one Europe will come to fruition. But will it be at the expense of peace.
I love it how serbs accuse bosnians and albanians of cowardice in killing their own people while its well known that in Krajina serbian army and prime minister left 2 days before Oluja and on their way out ran over some people who were fleeing too. Such courage shown. serbs in serbia dont consider Krajina serbs as their own in any case and I find the whole thing fascinating.
As for Krajina and what happened there...its not genocide (although im sure if roles were reversed alot more than 150 civilians would have died - ie. the number Gotovina is accused of).
As for numbers in Srebrenica, whether its 4000, 6000, or 8000 is irrelevant. Main point is genocide happened and whether the number is half of what is mentioned will not reduce the horror of what happened.
All three parties have dirty hands in the war but its clear who has the dirtiest of all. Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway. What does that tell you?
It is misguided to believe that Serbia was found innocent of involvement in Bosnia. As the official ruling (found on the ICJ website) states "...in this case we were confronted with substantial evidence of events in Bosnia and Herzegovina that may amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity - but we had no jurisdiction to make findings in that regard. We have been concerned only with genocide - and, I may add, genocide in the legal sense of that term, not in the broad use of that term that is sometimes made." In addition, this ruling as well as the original ruling on Srebrenica as genocide, state that Bosnian Serbs are now the sole perpetrators of genocide in Bosnia (as Srebrenica is the only official genocide that happened there). So, this is really not good news for Republika Srpska as this ruling can be used to abolish that entity if the Bosnians play their cards right...
OTOH 150 killed in Krajina is not 'genocide', i.e. it is not 'substantive' enough, then OTOHe argues that no matter how many were killed in Srebrenica, that numbers don't matter and it was 'genocide'.
The ICTY rulings and their reasoning can be read on their website. Do so before commenting.
"Reconciliation should start with the dirtiest and then the rest, not the other way around. However Croatia and maybe even Bosnia are more closer to that than Serbia anyway."
Tadic attended a memorial to the Srebrenica massacre and offered his apologies (The worst of the Serbian crimes), but last I checked Croatia still celebrated its worst crime, Operation Storm, as a national holiday, despite the presence of its Generals at the Hague for this crime. No Croatians were ethnically cleansed in Serbia itself. Have you been to Croatian Krajina recently? I certainly have, and its no picnic. The Serbian villages are still burnt out ghost towns for the most part, although a few people have returned. Please Daniel, enlighten us on what wonderful acts that Croatia has done to facilitate reconciliation? Did they even apologize for Mostar yet?
The ruling of the ICJ to my opinion is appropriate however unjust seems to be. Unjust particularly for the so called the women of Srebrenica.
Appropriate for the future of the Balkan people so that we start to look each other as humans first.
People in the Balkans should rally behind the Javanoviq like politician, only than we will really punish those who committed crimes.
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