Tuesday, 20.02.2007.
16:26
Vojislav Koštunica says the international community must “immediately and rigorously” react to Albanian threats of violence.
Izvor: B92
pre 17 godina
Matthew,
thanks for putting together your reply - good detail and well put. You are completly right about the full truth regarding what actually did happen during the 90's and it is something that is being completely revised thankfully. Hopefully then all the peoples of former-Yugoslavia will indeed be able to reconcile and put the past behind completly.
pre 17 godina
Victor, you said…
“I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable.”
Yet when foolish Serbian teenagers do anything wrong like spray paint graffiti you take the fully opposite stance.
“I am not surprised at all! That's exactly what these kids have heard in their homes for years. Hatred is part of their upbringing.”
“Another example of how the serbian teenagers have become violent, xenophobic and racist… learned that hatred of other ethnic groups is part of a societal context!”
“As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc.”
Let’s see some of your quotes, starting with my personal favorite…
“I am 'running around' with imaginary numbers… and 70% of the death toll, between 200 000 and 250 000, are Bosnians.
(Victor, 1 February 2007, 19:21)”
“The most common and most widely used number of killed persons in the Bosnia war has been around 200,000.”
“I am most sure that the figure 200 000 is quite fair and will appear in history books!”
“160 000 Bosnians who were slaughtered”
“the death of 150 000 Bosnians!”
“more than 50 000 Muslim women were raped by the Serbian paramilitaries, policemen, soldiers and militia.”
“Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.”
Let us see just how sympathetic Victor’s views are when it comes to Serbian victims.
“I think that Croatia had the rigt to fight by all means the Serb rebels... Too bad that Milosevic did not evacuate his citizens before the arrival of the Croat Army. He is responsible for the death of the civilians who were killed.”
“What did the Serbs expect? When the Croats finally manage to organize themselves with the aid of the American, they applied the same medicine…You cannot make an omelet without breaking the eggs“
“I say only that the Serbs cannot accused the Croats for what happened in the Krajina…”
“we all know that Croats do not want to live with Serbs; and the 70 000 Serbs who left knew this also. And I say they took the best decision.”
“If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country.”
“I see that the KLA did to the Serbs what they did to 10 000 Albanian civilians duringvthe war…
What goes around, comes around!”
“When you answer this, I couls possibly talked with you about Jasenovacc and other topics!”
pre 17 godina
«I noted your comments on the Hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!»
I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable. As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc. Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.
pre 17 godina
“and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes (james, Tuesday, 20 February, 2007, 20:34)”
James, comments like that seriously confuse the issue, and simply are flat out wrong. These types of statements make it very hard to take anything else you say seriously. The War in Slovenia only lasted a few days, and you know why? No Serbs who lived there were in danger, period. There was absolutely no desire to exterminate the Slovenes whatsoever. I am sure you know this.
As far as Croatia goes, after the Genocide committed against the Serbia people in WWII and the UN itself said Croatia did not respect Human Rights enough to merit independence at that time, can you blame the Serbians there for being in fear for their lives? Tudjman was an absolute maniac, I’ve read his writings and no Serbian would be able to feel safe living under the rule of such a man. The revival of Nationalism, the revision of Ustashe history, and the revival of Ustashe symbols seriously contributed to the fear of the Serbian population living there. Yeah, they went Shitzo Berserk, but when you believe that your entire population might be facing Genocide for the second time in recent memory, I think we deserve a little benefit of the doubt. Tudjman and Croatia deserve equal blame for fanning the flame of nationalism and contributing to the slaughter that ensued. We’ve all seen how the Croatians treated their “allies” in Mostar.
That being said, yes the Serbians did many things for which we should be ashamed. Tadic attending Memorials to the Srebenica massacre is definitely a step in the right direction, while Croatia still celebrates Operation Storm as a national holiday. Comparing the motivations of Tadic to that of Milosevic is a serious error of judgment. These kinds of misrepresentations of the facts only contribute to the continued suffering of those in the region and do not support reconciliation and the truth coming out in the open.
pre 17 godina
James,
you are the one who brought up history by implying that Serbia was solely responsible for the Collapse of Yugoslavia - but now don't wish to consider it.
"And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosovo, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else"
Lets get back to the legal - on what basis do you come up with such a swiping statement. 1244 was drawn up following the bombardment of the whole of Serbia & Montenegro to stop continued atrocities. The fact that the atrocities have continued under the noses of so called "humanitarians" against all non-Albanian ethnic communities and there has been a failure to implement safety and security of all the returnees is fine by you. In fact you suggest to go one step further reward this terrorism against all non-Albanians (they are not Kosovars by your implication) and then you can get rid of the problem completely if those pesky non-Albanians all unfortunately leave. How very convenient this would be for the individuals such as yourself who see only one solution and fail to even consider the implications of such short sighted solutions.
I guess you would be only too pleased to see a United Nation of 1 million with such a perverse perspective.
On your grounds I should lobby all British Serbs to come to Ealing & then demand for an independent Ealing, procreate to our hearts content, invite over our extended families and create a separatist Ealinger Liberation Army (maybe with China's secret police assistance) - is this what you really suggest? It certainly follows through to that if applied in ANY other multicultural state and don't start with sui generis!
Surely there must be an alternative that ensures that reconciliation is brought about first and that all the peoples of Serbia no matter what their ethnic background can co-exits in peace and prosperity. What has happened to the standards and if they were not implemented in the last 8 years what guarantees are offered to ensure it post status when there is no carrot of independence. What is so special about ethnic-Albanians in Kosovo & Metohija beyond any other ethnic-Albanians in the rest of Serbia? If one group of ethnic-Albanians can co-exist in Serbia why can't another?? Or for that matter how can all other ethnic communities co-exist in Serbia if they were such demons causing nothing but wars and destruction that you imply???
What you are suggesting lacks the intelligence to find real alternatives to conflict but your happy to store it up to a future unresolved frozen conflict.
There is no legal mechanism for the partition of Serbia and that was applicable to other Republics and therefore don't try to make Serbia sui generis - unless of course you want many other multi-cultural states to unravel? Maybe you don't believe in many peoples being able to set differences aside and learn to live within a state together - does not say much for a future of the EU in the Balkans!
pre 17 godina
Victor,
if you think I am wrong look into it yourself with an open mind - learn to read differing opinions do some research.
The evidence is that all are just as responsible and the likes of deniers like yourself of exagerating atrocities and aportioning blame to suit you keep the pot boiling to ethnic hatred.
I and many Serb posters (and the Serbian population at large) at least are willing to accept that much evil was done by fellow serbs and acknowledge this and want reconciliation but you only wish to persue your blinkered perspective to suit some perverse xenophobia - I noted your comments on the hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!
pre 17 godina
Princip, what a lengthy reply. You mention legal and territorial argument first and when faced with truth revert to history and when your history argument runs amok what are you going to say?
Have you been there? In those regions that you mention? Now there is no doubt others have done crimes or are suspected that have committed crimes, and that is why many have taken the first steps to reconcile their behavior, I see in this in the moves of Croatian government to surrendered its generals as did the Bosnian government, and may I tell you of a certain prime minister that surrendered himself. On the other hand Mr. Princip do you know where Mr. Karadzic, or Mr. Mladic are (just a reminder until recently they lived happily in Serbia, most likely do even now, on Serbias payroll may I add!!!)? Or even yet what happened to Mr. Djindjic when it appeared that he was going to work with international community? Cooperation with War Crimes Tribunal should not be forced or imposed it should be a matter of conscience, Serbian government has not shown such a will in addressing this issue, while other made that first step.
Twice in the 20th century people in masses, because of their identity, have been loaded in trains to be deported in force or killed and that happened under Nazi rule and Serb rule (I don't plan to give you links for this, you can call it a propaganda or whatever you like). Now you can refer to history as much as you want and say they did this and that and that is why we did this or that, but that is not an excuse furthermore we are not living in the past and in history, may I remind you it is the 21st century now, because if you start that argument, the argument based on history, then this argument will take us to the late 8th and early 9th century and one could be ignorant and say, or rightfully say so if it views things from your point of view, that if it wasn't for your forefathers to move on Balkans then we would be talking about these problems now, would we?
So, what happened, happened, we can only do that much as to improve and fix present issues and problems. And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosova, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else.
pre 17 godina
«However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against...»
You are completely wrong Princip. The Serbs are responsible for what happened in Kosovo. Milosevic sent the army and the soldiers went from one village to the other, killing the KLA members who were women, infants, children; they expelled more than 800 000 from their homes; they killed more than 12 000; they burned over 100 000 houses... and you tell me that the Albanians were just as responsible as the Serbs of all these crimes!!
How many Serbs did the Albanians killed? How many houses did they destroy?
And please stop writing a novel for an answer! At the end, the answer is so diluted that I find it no more.
pre 17 godina
James,
just read your comment. So you wish to bring up other areas of what was once Yugoslavia beyond Kosovo & Metohija. Fine, let us talk about the black & white biased media of the west that was used to create a simple but false message of good vs bad so that external meddlers could divide and conquer. This is a facade that has been used to explain the reasons for so called "humanitarian interventionism" and Kosovo & Metohija was a test bed for the illegal action that the US & UK would take 4 years later.
The fact of the matter is the full & complete truth is coming to light about events that have created the tragic collapse of Yugoslavia. This is not a black & white, good vs bad, cowboy vs American indigenous indians event. That simplistic and biased stroy was manufactured by the western media aided and abetted by politicians for political convenience who allowed the break up of a sovereign state into the microcosm of its multi-ethnic parts not wanting to comprehend or explain the complex issue of this tragic war preferring to patronise the general publics ability to comprehend.
History has had the time to start looking at the archives and in due course a more complete accounting (not based on the exaggeration of the media at the time) will be recalled of the events. That is why this is the last chance for the US to push through its intended objective when they (CIA) trained up the KLA in 96-98 and before were using the cover of retired Generals in Croatia 94/5. The truth is coming to light and now this is the last chance but I think its been and gone and Athisarri has been a failure in ensuring the Serbs were brought on board the train.
"Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia"
No one side is completely responsible and to imply such underlines your biased opinion. As a British citizen of Serb heritage I openly accept that much wrong (and evil) was done by individual Serbs in some psychotic opinion of Serbdom. However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against and no-one party in this complex and multi-faced tragic event is solely responsible as they as they all have blood on their hands. Regarding this term "Kosovars" - this only refers to ethnic-Albanians as all other ethnic groups consider themselves as Serbian citizens and is again another implication of your blinkered opinion.
Coming back to Serbia itself ask your self why if the case was that Serbs were so anti-all-other-ethnic groups why is Serbia itself still the most ethnic of all Republics of Former Yugoslavia - and that with the greatest influx of ethnically cleansed Serbs from Krajina, BiH and Kosovo & Metohija?
In a few days we will see the judgment regarding genocide in BiH maybe I will be proved wrong but I think the judgment will highlight that this indeed was a civil war perpetrated on the most part by it's own citizens on itself. 102,000 military and civilians died as a consequence of this civil war that was 3 various conflicts (Serbs VS Croats & Muslims, Croats VS Muslims and Muslim (Iztebegovic) Vs Muslim (Abdic). In Kosovo the figures have shrunk considerably since the western media reported over 100,000 ethnic-Albanians killed prior to NATO bombardment. Current accounting puts figures at the 5000-11,000 killed by all sides Serbs, Albanians & NATO bombardment. This very old article accounts for an early revision of figures.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_45_15/ai_58050616
Yes I accept that some cover up did in fact occur but lets get real about the truth - lies only continue the hatred and do little to help reconciliation - Croat denial and the Communist cover up of substantial (700,000+) and historically accounted genocide against Serbs, Jews & Roma in the Independent State of Croatia 41-45 - created the distrust between Serbs in Krajina and the Croatian authorities who were just as aggressive in removing Serbs in position of authority in 89/90.
PM Tony Blair was today asked in Parliment regarding the return of the hundreds and thousands and he was quite put out that he was questioned that UK intervention is a failure - look into it yourself. I think you will find that now everyone in the UK believes the media spin of the 90's.
History, is making account of the events and I am afraid James that your opinions will be questioned by it.
Regarding the train of Independence, I think you will find it is EU enlargement
commissioner Ollie Rehn who has a fondness for rail metaphors in describing
the EU's relations with the Balkans. Oh and by the way, the train has been called back to the sidings - no conductor to ensure safety!
pre 17 godina
Koshtunica calls all Kosovar Albaninas terrorist, how in the world he thinks he can keep Kosova or controled when hates all Albanians living in Kosova. He is the terrorist not Albanians.
pre 17 godina
Obilic, what did you find ignorant in the post? I think, I know. You are a pro-Kostunica and you believe that he will keep Kosovo! You are wrong.
pre 17 godina
The KLA is alone now-any violent confrontation they are looking to start by attacking Serbian and allied forces and by taking over Serbia's heartland (at the same time invading other Serbian regions) would end in a complete disaster for them.
I really think KLA is bluffing this time-their forces were decimated the day Serbian forces fought back in Kosovo, what makes them think they stand a chance now against Serbia, FYROM, Montenegro, etc. with their expansionist plans?
pre 17 godina
“Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
(Kreshnik, 20 February 2007, 18:13)”
Kreshnik, being familiar with your previous statements, I am assuming you mean fight using non-violent means? Personally, I can not fathom you supporting violence as a solution at this point in the conflict. That is not the Kreshnik that I have come to know and respect very much.
If Kosovars did in fact commit the recent violence, of course Kostunica is going to use it to his political advantage. If Albanians committed violence, they are only helping the Serbia side in the Great PR War going on right now among the Big Powers. We all know that. Let’s stay calm and not jump to conclusions. It’s going to be a rough couple of months coming up and we must all stand firm against the use of violence or the extremists on both sides win.
Kostunica’s message that violence “must be most harshly condemned by the international community” is a far cry from Milosevic’s call to engage in barbaric violence. I am no supporter of Kostunica, but I think he’s handling the situation with the violence in a more or less appropriate way. He’s asking the International Community to deal with it.
pre 17 godina
Princip, I am under this illusion
... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...
now what this means is that territorial integrity and all the legal shmeegal things you and Serbian government cite and quote have been abolished and rejected first and foremost flagrantly by Serbia, Serb military and police (and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia. I know it is hard for you to comprehend this but sorry buddy, to quote a prominent US senator, the Independence train has left the station.
pre 17 godina
It would be interesting to read how those that claim territorial integrity and legal paradoxes of Kosovo's independence have to say about this article
Secrets of Kosovo graves
It is on B92. I hope they don't mean that this is legal or protecting territorial integrity
pre 17 godina
the very fact that K reacts so quickly means that it's not an albanian action! moreover,kla has a way to autotify wish was not used here!
pre 17 godina
Filthy politics of Kostunica. Does he really cares about the humans who live in Kosovo or only about 15% of the land? Same on him! Feel sorry for the serbs that are represented by Kostunica. Anyway not many only 17% based on the last election.
pre 17 godina
WOW victor, you cant imagine how ignorant you sound in your last statement. I wont even bother saying anything else!
pre 17 godina
A chilling similarity with Slobodan Milosevic's rhetoric. I hope Serbia will see through this for its own good.
pre 17 godina
If Kosovo becomes independent that would mean they achieved it by means of violoence and terrorist activities. They murder, kidnap, steal, lie, cheat, blackmail, and then at the end of the day when they are not doing all this, they go back to drug dealing and human trafficking which is the bread and butter of the terrorist KLA. WAKEUP! everybody... don't give in to these thugs & criminals. They must respect the law. If they don't make them pay the price. Justice MUST prevail.
pre 17 godina
Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
pre 17 godina
So now 2+ million people are terrorists? This is the equivalent of calling Serbia a nation of baby killers and ethnic cleansers.
Is Kostunica that desperate? I sincerely hope some of the intelligent Serbian readers don't actually buy this for a minute. I am appalled that something like this comes from a "democratic" government... I am truly speechless. He is really showing what the Albanians are to expect if Kosova/o were to remain in Serbia. tsk tsk tsk
pre 17 godina
Vojislav Koštunica says the international community must immediately and rigorously react to Albanian threats of violence.
I do not agree. Who is 100% sure that those who committed these acts are Albanians and not Serbs ? Why do the Albanians do that?
Kostunica should send Mladic to the Hague, and after he could give advices to the UN on what is good and wrong.
Kostunica is no better than Milosevic. He stays in power not for the good of the Serbs, only for the prestige of the functions.
pre 17 godina
Yes James,
your right Serbia must see through the threats of violence and ensure that it's internationally recognised sovereign territory is not given as a reward to these terrorist acts.
No one should be under the illusion that terrorism is rewarded especially given that NATO said it bombarded Serbia (killing civilians) in 99 to ensure that no-one would suffer and that peace would be brought to the region. UN & NATO must now stand up and couter act this terrorism that is happening under their control before it becomes uncontainable.
pre 17 godina
A chilling similarity with Slobodan Milosevic's rhetoric. I hope Serbia will see through this for its own good.
pre 17 godina
So now 2+ million people are terrorists? This is the equivalent of calling Serbia a nation of baby killers and ethnic cleansers.
Is Kostunica that desperate? I sincerely hope some of the intelligent Serbian readers don't actually buy this for a minute. I am appalled that something like this comes from a "democratic" government... I am truly speechless. He is really showing what the Albanians are to expect if Kosova/o were to remain in Serbia. tsk tsk tsk
pre 17 godina
Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
pre 17 godina
Yes James,
your right Serbia must see through the threats of violence and ensure that it's internationally recognised sovereign territory is not given as a reward to these terrorist acts.
No one should be under the illusion that terrorism is rewarded especially given that NATO said it bombarded Serbia (killing civilians) in 99 to ensure that no-one would suffer and that peace would be brought to the region. UN & NATO must now stand up and couter act this terrorism that is happening under their control before it becomes uncontainable.
pre 17 godina
If Kosovo becomes independent that would mean they achieved it by means of violoence and terrorist activities. They murder, kidnap, steal, lie, cheat, blackmail, and then at the end of the day when they are not doing all this, they go back to drug dealing and human trafficking which is the bread and butter of the terrorist KLA. WAKEUP! everybody... don't give in to these thugs & criminals. They must respect the law. If they don't make them pay the price. Justice MUST prevail.
pre 17 godina
Vojislav Koštunica says the international community must immediately and rigorously react to Albanian threats of violence.
I do not agree. Who is 100% sure that those who committed these acts are Albanians and not Serbs ? Why do the Albanians do that?
Kostunica should send Mladic to the Hague, and after he could give advices to the UN on what is good and wrong.
Kostunica is no better than Milosevic. He stays in power not for the good of the Serbs, only for the prestige of the functions.
pre 17 godina
WOW victor, you cant imagine how ignorant you sound in your last statement. I wont even bother saying anything else!
pre 17 godina
Filthy politics of Kostunica. Does he really cares about the humans who live in Kosovo or only about 15% of the land? Same on him! Feel sorry for the serbs that are represented by Kostunica. Anyway not many only 17% based on the last election.
pre 17 godina
Princip, I am under this illusion
... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...
now what this means is that territorial integrity and all the legal shmeegal things you and Serbian government cite and quote have been abolished and rejected first and foremost flagrantly by Serbia, Serb military and police (and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia. I know it is hard for you to comprehend this but sorry buddy, to quote a prominent US senator, the Independence train has left the station.
pre 17 godina
It would be interesting to read how those that claim territorial integrity and legal paradoxes of Kosovo's independence have to say about this article
Secrets of Kosovo graves
It is on B92. I hope they don't mean that this is legal or protecting territorial integrity
pre 17 godina
the very fact that K reacts so quickly means that it's not an albanian action! moreover,kla has a way to autotify wish was not used here!
pre 17 godina
Obilic, what did you find ignorant in the post? I think, I know. You are a pro-Kostunica and you believe that he will keep Kosovo! You are wrong.
pre 17 godina
The KLA is alone now-any violent confrontation they are looking to start by attacking Serbian and allied forces and by taking over Serbia's heartland (at the same time invading other Serbian regions) would end in a complete disaster for them.
I really think KLA is bluffing this time-their forces were decimated the day Serbian forces fought back in Kosovo, what makes them think they stand a chance now against Serbia, FYROM, Montenegro, etc. with their expansionist plans?
pre 17 godina
“Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
(Kreshnik, 20 February 2007, 18:13)”
Kreshnik, being familiar with your previous statements, I am assuming you mean fight using non-violent means? Personally, I can not fathom you supporting violence as a solution at this point in the conflict. That is not the Kreshnik that I have come to know and respect very much.
If Kosovars did in fact commit the recent violence, of course Kostunica is going to use it to his political advantage. If Albanians committed violence, they are only helping the Serbia side in the Great PR War going on right now among the Big Powers. We all know that. Let’s stay calm and not jump to conclusions. It’s going to be a rough couple of months coming up and we must all stand firm against the use of violence or the extremists on both sides win.
Kostunica’s message that violence “must be most harshly condemned by the international community” is a far cry from Milosevic’s call to engage in barbaric violence. I am no supporter of Kostunica, but I think he’s handling the situation with the violence in a more or less appropriate way. He’s asking the International Community to deal with it.
pre 17 godina
Koshtunica calls all Kosovar Albaninas terrorist, how in the world he thinks he can keep Kosova or controled when hates all Albanians living in Kosova. He is the terrorist not Albanians.
pre 17 godina
James,
just read your comment. So you wish to bring up other areas of what was once Yugoslavia beyond Kosovo & Metohija. Fine, let us talk about the black & white biased media of the west that was used to create a simple but false message of good vs bad so that external meddlers could divide and conquer. This is a facade that has been used to explain the reasons for so called "humanitarian interventionism" and Kosovo & Metohija was a test bed for the illegal action that the US & UK would take 4 years later.
The fact of the matter is the full & complete truth is coming to light about events that have created the tragic collapse of Yugoslavia. This is not a black & white, good vs bad, cowboy vs American indigenous indians event. That simplistic and biased stroy was manufactured by the western media aided and abetted by politicians for political convenience who allowed the break up of a sovereign state into the microcosm of its multi-ethnic parts not wanting to comprehend or explain the complex issue of this tragic war preferring to patronise the general publics ability to comprehend.
History has had the time to start looking at the archives and in due course a more complete accounting (not based on the exaggeration of the media at the time) will be recalled of the events. That is why this is the last chance for the US to push through its intended objective when they (CIA) trained up the KLA in 96-98 and before were using the cover of retired Generals in Croatia 94/5. The truth is coming to light and now this is the last chance but I think its been and gone and Athisarri has been a failure in ensuring the Serbs were brought on board the train.
"Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia"
No one side is completely responsible and to imply such underlines your biased opinion. As a British citizen of Serb heritage I openly accept that much wrong (and evil) was done by individual Serbs in some psychotic opinion of Serbdom. However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against and no-one party in this complex and multi-faced tragic event is solely responsible as they as they all have blood on their hands. Regarding this term "Kosovars" - this only refers to ethnic-Albanians as all other ethnic groups consider themselves as Serbian citizens and is again another implication of your blinkered opinion.
Coming back to Serbia itself ask your self why if the case was that Serbs were so anti-all-other-ethnic groups why is Serbia itself still the most ethnic of all Republics of Former Yugoslavia - and that with the greatest influx of ethnically cleansed Serbs from Krajina, BiH and Kosovo & Metohija?
In a few days we will see the judgment regarding genocide in BiH maybe I will be proved wrong but I think the judgment will highlight that this indeed was a civil war perpetrated on the most part by it's own citizens on itself. 102,000 military and civilians died as a consequence of this civil war that was 3 various conflicts (Serbs VS Croats & Muslims, Croats VS Muslims and Muslim (Iztebegovic) Vs Muslim (Abdic). In Kosovo the figures have shrunk considerably since the western media reported over 100,000 ethnic-Albanians killed prior to NATO bombardment. Current accounting puts figures at the 5000-11,000 killed by all sides Serbs, Albanians & NATO bombardment. This very old article accounts for an early revision of figures.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_45_15/ai_58050616
Yes I accept that some cover up did in fact occur but lets get real about the truth - lies only continue the hatred and do little to help reconciliation - Croat denial and the Communist cover up of substantial (700,000+) and historically accounted genocide against Serbs, Jews & Roma in the Independent State of Croatia 41-45 - created the distrust between Serbs in Krajina and the Croatian authorities who were just as aggressive in removing Serbs in position of authority in 89/90.
PM Tony Blair was today asked in Parliment regarding the return of the hundreds and thousands and he was quite put out that he was questioned that UK intervention is a failure - look into it yourself. I think you will find that now everyone in the UK believes the media spin of the 90's.
History, is making account of the events and I am afraid James that your opinions will be questioned by it.
Regarding the train of Independence, I think you will find it is EU enlargement
commissioner Ollie Rehn who has a fondness for rail metaphors in describing
the EU's relations with the Balkans. Oh and by the way, the train has been called back to the sidings - no conductor to ensure safety!
pre 17 godina
«However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against...»
You are completely wrong Princip. The Serbs are responsible for what happened in Kosovo. Milosevic sent the army and the soldiers went from one village to the other, killing the KLA members who were women, infants, children; they expelled more than 800 000 from their homes; they killed more than 12 000; they burned over 100 000 houses... and you tell me that the Albanians were just as responsible as the Serbs of all these crimes!!
How many Serbs did the Albanians killed? How many houses did they destroy?
And please stop writing a novel for an answer! At the end, the answer is so diluted that I find it no more.
pre 17 godina
Victor,
if you think I am wrong look into it yourself with an open mind - learn to read differing opinions do some research.
The evidence is that all are just as responsible and the likes of deniers like yourself of exagerating atrocities and aportioning blame to suit you keep the pot boiling to ethnic hatred.
I and many Serb posters (and the Serbian population at large) at least are willing to accept that much evil was done by fellow serbs and acknowledge this and want reconciliation but you only wish to persue your blinkered perspective to suit some perverse xenophobia - I noted your comments on the hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!
pre 17 godina
Princip, what a lengthy reply. You mention legal and territorial argument first and when faced with truth revert to history and when your history argument runs amok what are you going to say?
Have you been there? In those regions that you mention? Now there is no doubt others have done crimes or are suspected that have committed crimes, and that is why many have taken the first steps to reconcile their behavior, I see in this in the moves of Croatian government to surrendered its generals as did the Bosnian government, and may I tell you of a certain prime minister that surrendered himself. On the other hand Mr. Princip do you know where Mr. Karadzic, or Mr. Mladic are (just a reminder until recently they lived happily in Serbia, most likely do even now, on Serbias payroll may I add!!!)? Or even yet what happened to Mr. Djindjic when it appeared that he was going to work with international community? Cooperation with War Crimes Tribunal should not be forced or imposed it should be a matter of conscience, Serbian government has not shown such a will in addressing this issue, while other made that first step.
Twice in the 20th century people in masses, because of their identity, have been loaded in trains to be deported in force or killed and that happened under Nazi rule and Serb rule (I don't plan to give you links for this, you can call it a propaganda or whatever you like). Now you can refer to history as much as you want and say they did this and that and that is why we did this or that, but that is not an excuse furthermore we are not living in the past and in history, may I remind you it is the 21st century now, because if you start that argument, the argument based on history, then this argument will take us to the late 8th and early 9th century and one could be ignorant and say, or rightfully say so if it views things from your point of view, that if it wasn't for your forefathers to move on Balkans then we would be talking about these problems now, would we?
So, what happened, happened, we can only do that much as to improve and fix present issues and problems. And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosova, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else.
pre 17 godina
James,
you are the one who brought up history by implying that Serbia was solely responsible for the Collapse of Yugoslavia - but now don't wish to consider it.
"And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosovo, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else"
Lets get back to the legal - on what basis do you come up with such a swiping statement. 1244 was drawn up following the bombardment of the whole of Serbia & Montenegro to stop continued atrocities. The fact that the atrocities have continued under the noses of so called "humanitarians" against all non-Albanian ethnic communities and there has been a failure to implement safety and security of all the returnees is fine by you. In fact you suggest to go one step further reward this terrorism against all non-Albanians (they are not Kosovars by your implication) and then you can get rid of the problem completely if those pesky non-Albanians all unfortunately leave. How very convenient this would be for the individuals such as yourself who see only one solution and fail to even consider the implications of such short sighted solutions.
I guess you would be only too pleased to see a United Nation of 1 million with such a perverse perspective.
On your grounds I should lobby all British Serbs to come to Ealing & then demand for an independent Ealing, procreate to our hearts content, invite over our extended families and create a separatist Ealinger Liberation Army (maybe with China's secret police assistance) - is this what you really suggest? It certainly follows through to that if applied in ANY other multicultural state and don't start with sui generis!
Surely there must be an alternative that ensures that reconciliation is brought about first and that all the peoples of Serbia no matter what their ethnic background can co-exits in peace and prosperity. What has happened to the standards and if they were not implemented in the last 8 years what guarantees are offered to ensure it post status when there is no carrot of independence. What is so special about ethnic-Albanians in Kosovo & Metohija beyond any other ethnic-Albanians in the rest of Serbia? If one group of ethnic-Albanians can co-exist in Serbia why can't another?? Or for that matter how can all other ethnic communities co-exist in Serbia if they were such demons causing nothing but wars and destruction that you imply???
What you are suggesting lacks the intelligence to find real alternatives to conflict but your happy to store it up to a future unresolved frozen conflict.
There is no legal mechanism for the partition of Serbia and that was applicable to other Republics and therefore don't try to make Serbia sui generis - unless of course you want many other multi-cultural states to unravel? Maybe you don't believe in many peoples being able to set differences aside and learn to live within a state together - does not say much for a future of the EU in the Balkans!
pre 17 godina
“and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes (james, Tuesday, 20 February, 2007, 20:34)”
James, comments like that seriously confuse the issue, and simply are flat out wrong. These types of statements make it very hard to take anything else you say seriously. The War in Slovenia only lasted a few days, and you know why? No Serbs who lived there were in danger, period. There was absolutely no desire to exterminate the Slovenes whatsoever. I am sure you know this.
As far as Croatia goes, after the Genocide committed against the Serbia people in WWII and the UN itself said Croatia did not respect Human Rights enough to merit independence at that time, can you blame the Serbians there for being in fear for their lives? Tudjman was an absolute maniac, I’ve read his writings and no Serbian would be able to feel safe living under the rule of such a man. The revival of Nationalism, the revision of Ustashe history, and the revival of Ustashe symbols seriously contributed to the fear of the Serbian population living there. Yeah, they went Shitzo Berserk, but when you believe that your entire population might be facing Genocide for the second time in recent memory, I think we deserve a little benefit of the doubt. Tudjman and Croatia deserve equal blame for fanning the flame of nationalism and contributing to the slaughter that ensued. We’ve all seen how the Croatians treated their “allies” in Mostar.
That being said, yes the Serbians did many things for which we should be ashamed. Tadic attending Memorials to the Srebenica massacre is definitely a step in the right direction, while Croatia still celebrates Operation Storm as a national holiday. Comparing the motivations of Tadic to that of Milosevic is a serious error of judgment. These kinds of misrepresentations of the facts only contribute to the continued suffering of those in the region and do not support reconciliation and the truth coming out in the open.
pre 17 godina
«I noted your comments on the Hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!»
I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable. As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc. Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.
pre 17 godina
Victor, you said…
“I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable.”
Yet when foolish Serbian teenagers do anything wrong like spray paint graffiti you take the fully opposite stance.
“I am not surprised at all! That's exactly what these kids have heard in their homes for years. Hatred is part of their upbringing.”
“Another example of how the serbian teenagers have become violent, xenophobic and racist… learned that hatred of other ethnic groups is part of a societal context!”
“As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc.”
Let’s see some of your quotes, starting with my personal favorite…
“I am 'running around' with imaginary numbers… and 70% of the death toll, between 200 000 and 250 000, are Bosnians.
(Victor, 1 February 2007, 19:21)”
“The most common and most widely used number of killed persons in the Bosnia war has been around 200,000.”
“I am most sure that the figure 200 000 is quite fair and will appear in history books!”
“160 000 Bosnians who were slaughtered”
“the death of 150 000 Bosnians!”
“more than 50 000 Muslim women were raped by the Serbian paramilitaries, policemen, soldiers and militia.”
“Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.”
Let us see just how sympathetic Victor’s views are when it comes to Serbian victims.
“I think that Croatia had the rigt to fight by all means the Serb rebels... Too bad that Milosevic did not evacuate his citizens before the arrival of the Croat Army. He is responsible for the death of the civilians who were killed.”
“What did the Serbs expect? When the Croats finally manage to organize themselves with the aid of the American, they applied the same medicine…You cannot make an omelet without breaking the eggs“
“I say only that the Serbs cannot accused the Croats for what happened in the Krajina…”
“we all know that Croats do not want to live with Serbs; and the 70 000 Serbs who left knew this also. And I say they took the best decision.”
“If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country.”
“I see that the KLA did to the Serbs what they did to 10 000 Albanian civilians duringvthe war…
What goes around, comes around!”
“When you answer this, I couls possibly talked with you about Jasenovacc and other topics!”
pre 17 godina
Matthew,
thanks for putting together your reply - good detail and well put. You are completly right about the full truth regarding what actually did happen during the 90's and it is something that is being completely revised thankfully. Hopefully then all the peoples of former-Yugoslavia will indeed be able to reconcile and put the past behind completly.
pre 17 godina
A chilling similarity with Slobodan Milosevic's rhetoric. I hope Serbia will see through this for its own good.
pre 17 godina
So now 2+ million people are terrorists? This is the equivalent of calling Serbia a nation of baby killers and ethnic cleansers.
Is Kostunica that desperate? I sincerely hope some of the intelligent Serbian readers don't actually buy this for a minute. I am appalled that something like this comes from a "democratic" government... I am truly speechless. He is really showing what the Albanians are to expect if Kosova/o were to remain in Serbia. tsk tsk tsk
pre 17 godina
Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
pre 17 godina
Yes James,
your right Serbia must see through the threats of violence and ensure that it's internationally recognised sovereign territory is not given as a reward to these terrorist acts.
No one should be under the illusion that terrorism is rewarded especially given that NATO said it bombarded Serbia (killing civilians) in 99 to ensure that no-one would suffer and that peace would be brought to the region. UN & NATO must now stand up and couter act this terrorism that is happening under their control before it becomes uncontainable.
pre 17 godina
If Kosovo becomes independent that would mean they achieved it by means of violoence and terrorist activities. They murder, kidnap, steal, lie, cheat, blackmail, and then at the end of the day when they are not doing all this, they go back to drug dealing and human trafficking which is the bread and butter of the terrorist KLA. WAKEUP! everybody... don't give in to these thugs & criminals. They must respect the law. If they don't make them pay the price. Justice MUST prevail.
pre 17 godina
Vojislav Koštunica says the international community must immediately and rigorously react to Albanian threats of violence.
I do not agree. Who is 100% sure that those who committed these acts are Albanians and not Serbs ? Why do the Albanians do that?
Kostunica should send Mladic to the Hague, and after he could give advices to the UN on what is good and wrong.
Kostunica is no better than Milosevic. He stays in power not for the good of the Serbs, only for the prestige of the functions.
pre 17 godina
WOW victor, you cant imagine how ignorant you sound in your last statement. I wont even bother saying anything else!
pre 17 godina
Filthy politics of Kostunica. Does he really cares about the humans who live in Kosovo or only about 15% of the land? Same on him! Feel sorry for the serbs that are represented by Kostunica. Anyway not many only 17% based on the last election.
pre 17 godina
Princip, I am under this illusion
... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...
now what this means is that territorial integrity and all the legal shmeegal things you and Serbian government cite and quote have been abolished and rejected first and foremost flagrantly by Serbia, Serb military and police (and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia. I know it is hard for you to comprehend this but sorry buddy, to quote a prominent US senator, the Independence train has left the station.
pre 17 godina
It would be interesting to read how those that claim territorial integrity and legal paradoxes of Kosovo's independence have to say about this article
Secrets of Kosovo graves
It is on B92. I hope they don't mean that this is legal or protecting territorial integrity
pre 17 godina
the very fact that K reacts so quickly means that it's not an albanian action! moreover,kla has a way to autotify wish was not used here!
pre 17 godina
Obilic, what did you find ignorant in the post? I think, I know. You are a pro-Kostunica and you believe that he will keep Kosovo! You are wrong.
pre 17 godina
The KLA is alone now-any violent confrontation they are looking to start by attacking Serbian and allied forces and by taking over Serbia's heartland (at the same time invading other Serbian regions) would end in a complete disaster for them.
I really think KLA is bluffing this time-their forces were decimated the day Serbian forces fought back in Kosovo, what makes them think they stand a chance now against Serbia, FYROM, Montenegro, etc. with their expansionist plans?
pre 17 godina
“Kostunica's message is clear: Albanians havent fought hard enough.
(Kreshnik, 20 February 2007, 18:13)”
Kreshnik, being familiar with your previous statements, I am assuming you mean fight using non-violent means? Personally, I can not fathom you supporting violence as a solution at this point in the conflict. That is not the Kreshnik that I have come to know and respect very much.
If Kosovars did in fact commit the recent violence, of course Kostunica is going to use it to his political advantage. If Albanians committed violence, they are only helping the Serbia side in the Great PR War going on right now among the Big Powers. We all know that. Let’s stay calm and not jump to conclusions. It’s going to be a rough couple of months coming up and we must all stand firm against the use of violence or the extremists on both sides win.
Kostunica’s message that violence “must be most harshly condemned by the international community” is a far cry from Milosevic’s call to engage in barbaric violence. I am no supporter of Kostunica, but I think he’s handling the situation with the violence in a more or less appropriate way. He’s asking the International Community to deal with it.
pre 17 godina
Koshtunica calls all Kosovar Albaninas terrorist, how in the world he thinks he can keep Kosova or controled when hates all Albanians living in Kosova. He is the terrorist not Albanians.
pre 17 godina
James,
just read your comment. So you wish to bring up other areas of what was once Yugoslavia beyond Kosovo & Metohija. Fine, let us talk about the black & white biased media of the west that was used to create a simple but false message of good vs bad so that external meddlers could divide and conquer. This is a facade that has been used to explain the reasons for so called "humanitarian interventionism" and Kosovo & Metohija was a test bed for the illegal action that the US & UK would take 4 years later.
The fact of the matter is the full & complete truth is coming to light about events that have created the tragic collapse of Yugoslavia. This is not a black & white, good vs bad, cowboy vs American indigenous indians event. That simplistic and biased stroy was manufactured by the western media aided and abetted by politicians for political convenience who allowed the break up of a sovereign state into the microcosm of its multi-ethnic parts not wanting to comprehend or explain the complex issue of this tragic war preferring to patronise the general publics ability to comprehend.
History has had the time to start looking at the archives and in due course a more complete accounting (not based on the exaggeration of the media at the time) will be recalled of the events. That is why this is the last chance for the US to push through its intended objective when they (CIA) trained up the KLA in 96-98 and before were using the cover of retired Generals in Croatia 94/5. The truth is coming to light and now this is the last chance but I think its been and gone and Athisarri has been a failure in ensuring the Serbs were brought on board the train.
"Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes) all over Yugoslavia, and as such Kosovars have every right to rise and seek separation from Serbia"
No one side is completely responsible and to imply such underlines your biased opinion. As a British citizen of Serb heritage I openly accept that much wrong (and evil) was done by individual Serbs in some psychotic opinion of Serbdom. However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against and no-one party in this complex and multi-faced tragic event is solely responsible as they as they all have blood on their hands. Regarding this term "Kosovars" - this only refers to ethnic-Albanians as all other ethnic groups consider themselves as Serbian citizens and is again another implication of your blinkered opinion.
Coming back to Serbia itself ask your self why if the case was that Serbs were so anti-all-other-ethnic groups why is Serbia itself still the most ethnic of all Republics of Former Yugoslavia - and that with the greatest influx of ethnically cleansed Serbs from Krajina, BiH and Kosovo & Metohija?
In a few days we will see the judgment regarding genocide in BiH maybe I will be proved wrong but I think the judgment will highlight that this indeed was a civil war perpetrated on the most part by it's own citizens on itself. 102,000 military and civilians died as a consequence of this civil war that was 3 various conflicts (Serbs VS Croats & Muslims, Croats VS Muslims and Muslim (Iztebegovic) Vs Muslim (Abdic). In Kosovo the figures have shrunk considerably since the western media reported over 100,000 ethnic-Albanians killed prior to NATO bombardment. Current accounting puts figures at the 5000-11,000 killed by all sides Serbs, Albanians & NATO bombardment. This very old article accounts for an early revision of figures.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_45_15/ai_58050616
Yes I accept that some cover up did in fact occur but lets get real about the truth - lies only continue the hatred and do little to help reconciliation - Croat denial and the Communist cover up of substantial (700,000+) and historically accounted genocide against Serbs, Jews & Roma in the Independent State of Croatia 41-45 - created the distrust between Serbs in Krajina and the Croatian authorities who were just as aggressive in removing Serbs in position of authority in 89/90.
PM Tony Blair was today asked in Parliment regarding the return of the hundreds and thousands and he was quite put out that he was questioned that UK intervention is a failure - look into it yourself. I think you will find that now everyone in the UK believes the media spin of the 90's.
History, is making account of the events and I am afraid James that your opinions will be questioned by it.
Regarding the train of Independence, I think you will find it is EU enlargement
commissioner Ollie Rehn who has a fondness for rail metaphors in describing
the EU's relations with the Balkans. Oh and by the way, the train has been called back to the sidings - no conductor to ensure safety!
pre 17 godina
«However, all sides are just as responsible for actions by and against...»
You are completely wrong Princip. The Serbs are responsible for what happened in Kosovo. Milosevic sent the army and the soldiers went from one village to the other, killing the KLA members who were women, infants, children; they expelled more than 800 000 from their homes; they killed more than 12 000; they burned over 100 000 houses... and you tell me that the Albanians were just as responsible as the Serbs of all these crimes!!
How many Serbs did the Albanians killed? How many houses did they destroy?
And please stop writing a novel for an answer! At the end, the answer is so diluted that I find it no more.
pre 17 godina
Victor,
if you think I am wrong look into it yourself with an open mind - learn to read differing opinions do some research.
The evidence is that all are just as responsible and the likes of deniers like yourself of exagerating atrocities and aportioning blame to suit you keep the pot boiling to ethnic hatred.
I and many Serb posters (and the Serbian population at large) at least are willing to accept that much evil was done by fellow serbs and acknowledge this and want reconciliation but you only wish to persue your blinkered perspective to suit some perverse xenophobia - I noted your comments on the hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!
pre 17 godina
Princip, what a lengthy reply. You mention legal and territorial argument first and when faced with truth revert to history and when your history argument runs amok what are you going to say?
Have you been there? In those regions that you mention? Now there is no doubt others have done crimes or are suspected that have committed crimes, and that is why many have taken the first steps to reconcile their behavior, I see in this in the moves of Croatian government to surrendered its generals as did the Bosnian government, and may I tell you of a certain prime minister that surrendered himself. On the other hand Mr. Princip do you know where Mr. Karadzic, or Mr. Mladic are (just a reminder until recently they lived happily in Serbia, most likely do even now, on Serbias payroll may I add!!!)? Or even yet what happened to Mr. Djindjic when it appeared that he was going to work with international community? Cooperation with War Crimes Tribunal should not be forced or imposed it should be a matter of conscience, Serbian government has not shown such a will in addressing this issue, while other made that first step.
Twice in the 20th century people in masses, because of their identity, have been loaded in trains to be deported in force or killed and that happened under Nazi rule and Serb rule (I don't plan to give you links for this, you can call it a propaganda or whatever you like). Now you can refer to history as much as you want and say they did this and that and that is why we did this or that, but that is not an excuse furthermore we are not living in the past and in history, may I remind you it is the 21st century now, because if you start that argument, the argument based on history, then this argument will take us to the late 8th and early 9th century and one could be ignorant and say, or rightfully say so if it views things from your point of view, that if it wasn't for your forefathers to move on Balkans then we would be talking about these problems now, would we?
So, what happened, happened, we can only do that much as to improve and fix present issues and problems. And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosova, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else.
pre 17 godina
James,
you are the one who brought up history by implying that Serbia was solely responsible for the Collapse of Yugoslavia - but now don't wish to consider it.
"And right now it is a much better solution to have an independent Kosovo, with Kosovars living in it, and if someone does not want to live there, that's his/her choice and should not hold hostage everyone else"
Lets get back to the legal - on what basis do you come up with such a swiping statement. 1244 was drawn up following the bombardment of the whole of Serbia & Montenegro to stop continued atrocities. The fact that the atrocities have continued under the noses of so called "humanitarians" against all non-Albanian ethnic communities and there has been a failure to implement safety and security of all the returnees is fine by you. In fact you suggest to go one step further reward this terrorism against all non-Albanians (they are not Kosovars by your implication) and then you can get rid of the problem completely if those pesky non-Albanians all unfortunately leave. How very convenient this would be for the individuals such as yourself who see only one solution and fail to even consider the implications of such short sighted solutions.
I guess you would be only too pleased to see a United Nation of 1 million with such a perverse perspective.
On your grounds I should lobby all British Serbs to come to Ealing & then demand for an independent Ealing, procreate to our hearts content, invite over our extended families and create a separatist Ealinger Liberation Army (maybe with China's secret police assistance) - is this what you really suggest? It certainly follows through to that if applied in ANY other multicultural state and don't start with sui generis!
Surely there must be an alternative that ensures that reconciliation is brought about first and that all the peoples of Serbia no matter what their ethnic background can co-exits in peace and prosperity. What has happened to the standards and if they were not implemented in the last 8 years what guarantees are offered to ensure it post status when there is no carrot of independence. What is so special about ethnic-Albanians in Kosovo & Metohija beyond any other ethnic-Albanians in the rest of Serbia? If one group of ethnic-Albanians can co-exist in Serbia why can't another?? Or for that matter how can all other ethnic communities co-exist in Serbia if they were such demons causing nothing but wars and destruction that you imply???
What you are suggesting lacks the intelligence to find real alternatives to conflict but your happy to store it up to a future unresolved frozen conflict.
There is no legal mechanism for the partition of Serbia and that was applicable to other Republics and therefore don't try to make Serbia sui generis - unless of course you want many other multi-cultural states to unravel? Maybe you don't believe in many peoples being able to set differences aside and learn to live within a state together - does not say much for a future of the EU in the Balkans!
pre 17 godina
“and consequently Serbian people, who have voted and are voting continuously for the same people that wanted to exterminate Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenes (james, Tuesday, 20 February, 2007, 20:34)”
James, comments like that seriously confuse the issue, and simply are flat out wrong. These types of statements make it very hard to take anything else you say seriously. The War in Slovenia only lasted a few days, and you know why? No Serbs who lived there were in danger, period. There was absolutely no desire to exterminate the Slovenes whatsoever. I am sure you know this.
As far as Croatia goes, after the Genocide committed against the Serbia people in WWII and the UN itself said Croatia did not respect Human Rights enough to merit independence at that time, can you blame the Serbians there for being in fear for their lives? Tudjman was an absolute maniac, I’ve read his writings and no Serbian would be able to feel safe living under the rule of such a man. The revival of Nationalism, the revision of Ustashe history, and the revival of Ustashe symbols seriously contributed to the fear of the Serbian population living there. Yeah, they went Shitzo Berserk, but when you believe that your entire population might be facing Genocide for the second time in recent memory, I think we deserve a little benefit of the doubt. Tudjman and Croatia deserve equal blame for fanning the flame of nationalism and contributing to the slaughter that ensued. We’ve all seen how the Croatians treated their “allies” in Mostar.
That being said, yes the Serbians did many things for which we should be ashamed. Tadic attending Memorials to the Srebenica massacre is definitely a step in the right direction, while Croatia still celebrates Operation Storm as a national holiday. Comparing the motivations of Tadic to that of Milosevic is a serious error of judgment. These kinds of misrepresentations of the facts only contribute to the continued suffering of those in the region and do not support reconciliation and the truth coming out in the open.
pre 17 godina
«I noted your comments on the Hitler sugar and many of your other exagerated views!»
I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable. As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc. Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.
pre 17 godina
Victor, you said…
“I simply asked the Serbs not to believe that the Croatia is fascist or nazist only because 'a radical Croat' decided to but Hitler's picture on sugar packets. Be reasonable.”
Yet when foolish Serbian teenagers do anything wrong like spray paint graffiti you take the fully opposite stance.
“I am not surprised at all! That's exactly what these kids have heard in their homes for years. Hatred is part of their upbringing.”
“Another example of how the serbian teenagers have become violent, xenophobic and racist… learned that hatred of other ethnic groups is part of a societal context!”
“As for my 'exagerated views', I have always tried to remain faithful to the facts as established by the ICTY, Human Rights Watch, Amnety, etc.”
Let’s see some of your quotes, starting with my personal favorite…
“I am 'running around' with imaginary numbers… and 70% of the death toll, between 200 000 and 250 000, are Bosnians.
(Victor, 1 February 2007, 19:21)”
“The most common and most widely used number of killed persons in the Bosnia war has been around 200,000.”
“I am most sure that the figure 200 000 is quite fair and will appear in history books!”
“160 000 Bosnians who were slaughtered”
“the death of 150 000 Bosnians!”
“more than 50 000 Muslim women were raped by the Serbian paramilitaries, policemen, soldiers and militia.”
“Furthermore, I have always been on the victims' side, never with the war criminals.”
Let us see just how sympathetic Victor’s views are when it comes to Serbian victims.
“I think that Croatia had the rigt to fight by all means the Serb rebels... Too bad that Milosevic did not evacuate his citizens before the arrival of the Croat Army. He is responsible for the death of the civilians who were killed.”
“What did the Serbs expect? When the Croats finally manage to organize themselves with the aid of the American, they applied the same medicine…You cannot make an omelet without breaking the eggs“
“I say only that the Serbs cannot accused the Croats for what happened in the Krajina…”
“we all know that Croats do not want to live with Serbs; and the 70 000 Serbs who left knew this also. And I say they took the best decision.”
“If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country.”
“I see that the KLA did to the Serbs what they did to 10 000 Albanian civilians duringvthe war…
What goes around, comes around!”
“When you answer this, I couls possibly talked with you about Jasenovacc and other topics!”
pre 17 godina
Matthew,
thanks for putting together your reply - good detail and well put. You are completly right about the full truth regarding what actually did happen during the 90's and it is something that is being completely revised thankfully. Hopefully then all the peoples of former-Yugoslavia will indeed be able to reconcile and put the past behind completly.
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