Parliament rejects Ahtisaari plan

This outcome is not a surprise. What is ironical though is that the resolution explicitly calls for the compliance with the international law. As if Serbia would be in compliance with it. Indeed, the UNSC will now try to impose a solution. In the end Russia will probably come around a drop Serbia like a hot potato.

It is so sad to recognize the fact that the new parliament of Serbia has not changed anything in substance from the Milosevic’s era. We all remember the time when Serbian parliament rejected anything proposed from democratic world in the past. We all remember the consequences followed. It reminds me also the era when so-called Serbs parliaments in Krajina and Bosnia decisively rejected projects offered to them and finally were forced to accept whatever came from western countries, but only those that were forced. How can this people (Serbs politicians) imagine putting under control 2 million people that sacrificed so much for their freedom and for their prosperous future?
Albanians since 1912, when first were occupied by Serbs, continuously fought for existence, they had the same situation. Every one who knows the Kosova’s history knows that.

Regardless of formal resolutions adopted by Serbian parliament, Kosova will be independent country. Only as independent state Kosova will be within the EU family one day.

The highest respect for LDP and Mr. Jovanovic. Sir, you are the real patriot of your nation. It confirms to me that big nations, like Serbian nation, have personalities like you. It is impossible that entire nation is poisoned of hatred and chauvinism. The future belongs to you, sir.

Cheers, Adi, Prizren

"serbia is not different today than under milosevic" is a silly statement.

legal mechanism please.

the same law that applies to the world must apply to serbia

there can not be one law for bosnia and a different law for kosovo.

in yesterdays ny times, thomas freidman wrote that for russia this is revenge. this is the beginning of payback to the usa for 15 years of sticking it in russia's face.

Adi,

Occupied by Serbs only in 1912????? I suggest you make an accurate record of historic monuments Kosovo and Metohija. You will find thousands of churches, monasteries, castles, hermitages and ruined medieval villages associated with the Serbs. How many Albanian (not Ottoman, there is a difference) monuments pre 19th century will you find? I would also suggest that any arguement based upon the notion that Albanians are the descendents of Illyrian pre Roman people should not be entered here. It is now generally considered (everywhere outside Albania) that there isn't sufficient evidence (based on linguistics and place names) to attribute the Albanians as the sole descendents of the various Illyrian tribes. Vlachs, Serbs and Macedonians could have as much Illyrian blood in their veins.

How ironic that you live in the one time capital of the medieval Serbian Empire.

excerpts from thomas friedman's op-ed in yesterdays ny times.

"Foreign policy experts are still trying to parse Vladimir Putin’s weekend blast against America, which he described as a brutish country that “has overstepped its national borders, in every area.”

They warned us at the time... but the Clinton folks told us: “Don’t worry, Russia is weak; Yeltsin will swallow hard and accept NATO expansion. There will be no cost.”

I believe that one reason Mr. Putin... was that we told Russia: Swallow your pride, it’s a new world. We get to have spheres of influence and you don’t — and ours will go right up to your front door.

But now that high oil and gas prices have made Russia powerful again — the gasman of Europe — Mr. Putin is shoving Russia’s resurgent pride right back in our face. In effect, he is saying to America: “Oh, you talkin’ to me? You thought you could tell me that the cold war was over and that NATO expansion was not directed at Russia — but we couldn’t be members anyway. Did you really think we were going to believe that? Well, now I’m talkin’ to you. Get out of my face.”

Mr. Putin was only slightly more diplomatic in his Munich remarks, where he said: “The process of NATO expansion has nothing to do with modernization of the alliance. We have the right to ask, ‘Against whom is this expansion directed?’ ” We all know the answer: it’s directed against Russia. O.K., fine, we were ready to enrage Russia to expand NATO, but what have we gotten out of it? The Czech Navy?

For those of us who opposed NATO expansion, the point was simple: there is no major geopolitical issue, especially one like Iran, that we can resolve without Russia’s help. So why not behave in a way that maximizes Russia’s willingness to work with us and strengthens its democrats, rather than expanding NATO to countries that can’t help us and are not threatened anymore by Russia, and whose democracies are better secured by joining the European Union?

Mr. Shelmerdine,

At the Conference of Ambassadors in London in 1912 presided over by Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, Serbia was given sovereignty over Kosovo which it has retained until 1999. As a person that knows history, you should know this.

I am not affectionated by history. I am future oriented person. But, I have reason to not believe on the history written neither by Albanians, nor from Serbians. I have red the book “Kosovo: a Short History” by Noel Malcolm. I think it is one of the most appreciated books over the Kosova’s History.

I know that in the past, our ancestors were Illyrians. When Illyrians decided to cross from polytheism into the monotheism, they accepted the christian religion, orthodoxism and catholicism as their religion. I am an Albanian of catholic religion. My uncle is Muslim. We are quite mixed. Religion for an Albanian is one of the ways to pray to the god. Nothing else.

As far as thousands of churches, monasteries, you mentioned, they do not belong only to Serbian people. they belong to Albanians too. Churches, monasteries are our history, too. We have protected them across the centuries.

Cheers from beautiful Prizren,
Adi

Blag,

It is not only me at the opinion that the resolution adopted yesterday by Serbian parliament resembles on Milosevic's era. Mr. Jovanovic, the LDP leader, is at the same opinion, too. Yesterday he stated that the resolution is the expression of the politics utilized extensively by Milosevic in the past. Moreover, he stated that behind the resolution stands actual incompetent Serbian government. I think he is right.

How comes that only actual Serbian government knows that the Ahtissari's proposal is against the UN chart and most of other representatives of democratic countries don’t?!!!

It is against the common sense!!!

Cheers,

protecting them how? by burning them down and claim others history to be yours?. like skederbag? who was half serb half greek?

Adi,
I've read the same book..

But at the end of the day, i got the feeling (as far as earlier history goes), that Noel tried to inflate Albanian claims while at the same time deflating Serbian claims in order to bring a balance..

One way or the other, his writings were based on a lot of what Pijotr Bogdani wrote (an Albanian), and yes....he was the intellect of the time.

Nonetheless, a great book to read. But not one that foreign policy should be geared towards...

Every Serb should read it.
Every Albanian for that matter.

Come on Pjetro!!! Whatever does not fit with your interests, you guys say is not objective or it supports Albanian cause, though the writer is not Albanian.

As I said, I am not I person that is hostage of the past, but there is something that we can relay on. Malcolm’s book is highly valued everywhere.

Cheers,

Adi,

You seem like a reasonable person.

I bring attention to the fact that the concept of Sovreignty is the foundational basis of the nation/ state and international politics and that this proposal seeks to suspend it. This is very, very notable. It is even more notable because there is no pre-defined and pre-agreed a priori road map showing us when we may suspend national sovreignty and how. Finally, it is distressing that independence proponents are considering to move it outside the auspices of the UN b/c it will only lead to a very predictable response which will give independence...but not a liveable independence.

At the same time, I am distressed that BG does not even have a plan to create for harmonious co-existence should independence not be achieved.

Finally, Kostunica, Tadic, Djindjic, Jovanovic, and many others in the parliament all went to a great degree of personal risk to topple Milosevic. Kostunica as you may recall was in fact the man who did so.

Adi,

I too have read Noel Malcolm's book, and I have to agree with Pijetro here. Yes, it’s a great book, highly recommended, and he goes into great detail on sources and documents and everything. I also suggest everyone read it.

However, although Noel cites many sources and does some fairly indepth research, his reasoning and conclusions are often wrong and even contridictory in my opinion. One trick he uses is to cite many different conflicting sources and then use inconsistent logic in determining which source is the "correct" one, and then uses the exact opposite logic to choose his next "correct" source. I believe he should just present the evidence and let the reader decide.

The other major issue I have with the book is that although he goes into great detail every single crime that Serbians committed, he has a tendency to minimalize or simply ignore crimes that occurred against Serbs.

For example, he does admit that towards the end of Ottoman rule that things got ugly (but doesn't go into solid specifics, no mention of the Human Skull Monument in Nis for example), he then launches into a deep conversation about how wonderful and open the Ottoman Empire was in the beginning (Something I do more or less agree with). However, by going into such detail about the benevolent rule of the early Ottomans, and then completely glossing over the crimes during the end of their rule he leaves a very different impression of the sufferings of the Serbian people under the late Ottoman period.

I also think he's deliberately confusing in his writings. I've had a college level reading rate since elementary school and I had to read it very carefully before I could see all the flaws in his reasoning and conclusions.

The lesson to learn here is that just because someone does a good job citing source material, does not mean that their conclusions and reasoning and how they interpert the data is correct. Unfortunately, Noel Malcolm is in fact engaging in propaganda, I understand he has to sell his books, and right now that sort of viewpoint is far more popular in the West then a more balanced approach.

Several of comments I have read on this website encourage the Serbian gov't to ignore the West and EU, and pursue isolation? Are you serious? So the rest of the european countries are stupid for wanting to join the EU, and Serbia is the only smart cookie of the bunch?

And please do not compare yourself to the UK, if someone has the temptetion to. You don't have the UK cojones to be in the same league with them! It is this hubris that has led your country astray.

The west realizes that you are Russia’s proxy, and they are punishing Serbia over and over for it. Why continue to be in such dire situations?

Let’s not forget about the Islamic countries in the Middle East which back Kosova, not particularly because of our faith (we are largely moderate Muslims), but because our status is very closely tied to the Palestinian situation.

Israel has hinted it's support for Kosova’s independence, a direct signal to the neighboring Muslim countries that Israel would also support a Palestinian state if the extreme anti-Semitic rhetoric and influence is calmed down.

When you're talking about a source of "energy", the Middle East is way more important to the world economy than is Russia's disputed natural gas lines.

The only reason Russia does not want the Kosova situation to resolve is because they know the solution would also aid in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which would then calm down the anti-US sentiment in the Middle East region and ultimately it would lead to disengagement of US’s forces in that area and allow the US to continue to prosper as it has.

Russia's lack of enthusiasm for Ahtisaari's plan has nothing to do with support for Serbia's sovereignity, and everything to do with Russia's interests. Same can be said of the US policy towards the Kosova. I am a pragmatist, so I acknowledge that, and I continue to be eternally grateful for the US's involvement.

Russia wants the US bogged down so that they can buy some time and re-build their strength. US defeated Russia once during the Cold War and it will do it again, by solving the Kosova, Palestine, and Iran-Iraq situations. You can’t blame a champion for being a champion.

What is Serbia basing the "illegal" imposition on the sovereignty of Serbia argument on? UNSC 1244 refers only to the FRY borders, and does not mention Serbia proper at all! There is no longer a FRY, so that argument and resolution is out of the door.

As far as the 1919 agreement where Serbia’s border were “defined”, the laws provide for international interference when the situation requires it so.

As an example, after WWII, Germany, a fully sovereign country was divided into two separate countries until the late '80s, when the two countries decided to re-join.

The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, the neighboring countries, and the rest of the world (largely in line with the recent history of Serbia). As such, Germany had lost all internationally recognized legal protections that it chose to overlook when it decided to attack others. Does this situation sound familiar? It should, because you are living in it right now! Sounds to me like the West has plenty of legal cover and a precedent.

Yes it would be easier for all parties concerned, including Serbia, if everyone agreed to the proposal and signed on the dotted line. But, make no mistake Kosova's independence can and will be realized even in the face of Serbian and Russian opposition if need be. Note: Take time to reflect on the 1999 bombing.

Serbia, you made your bed, now you have to lay in it. God Bless These United States of America

onasteries are our history, too. We have protected them across the centuries.

Cheers from beautiful Prizren,
Adi
(adi, 15 February 2007, 15:15)

What did you do when Five Orthodox Churches were burned in Prizren in March-2004.

What have you done as a member of the Prizren community to rebuild those Churches?

Not a surprise the Serbian government rejected the plan, but what strikes me curious is whether or not Belgrade has offered anything tangilble in the way of an alternate plan for integrating a restless Albanian society into the mainstream of Serbian society. If they just say "complete autonomy", how is that practically and realistically different from independence, and without any role from Belgrade, you might as well give Kosovo it's independence since the Albanians will be running their own affairs anyway.

If the government offers an alternative plan which details integration along institutional and economic cooperation, then yes, we have seen a marked difference in attitude and government since Milosevic. If however the rejection of the solution is nothing more than a symbolic show of collective pouting and middle-finger posturing to the West, then such a rejection is just that - symbolic. Tadic and Kostunica should engage with Ceku and Sejdiu, rather than isolating them which only strengthens their determination to separate.

Serbs love to state that their country is really the only multiethnic country in the Balkans. It's true. Vojvodina has Hungarian, Croat, Slovak, Romanian, Ruthenian, and Ukranian societies. Bulgars live in Serbia's east, and Albanians in Serbia's south. Why doesn't Belgrade capitalize on this multiethnicity and start recasting its state identity to reflect these communities? Such gestures and a willingness to work with non-Serb communities would not only improve relations between troubled communities, but also add some validity to Serbia's claims for Kosovo. A multiethnic approach to Kosovo would certainly help diffuse the back-and-forth rants between both sides vying for historical monopoly over the region.

"The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, the neighboring countries, and the rest of the world (largely in line with the recent history of Serbia)."

Blah, blah, blah...let's continue fabricate analogies to suit your sophistic arguement. Germany did attack sovereign neighbors. However, Yugoslavia (not Serbia) was within its right to resist the dissolution of its country by entering into a CIVIL war with seccessionist republics. But hey, don't let facts stop you from making nonsensical postulates.

Mr. Jashari:

You are wrong on two counts:

1. Serbia is the legal successor of FRY. In other words, Serbia is FRY. Period.

2. Germany was not divided as punishment for its actions. East Germany was split off from West Germany by the Soviet Union in its Cold War with the USA.

Finally, Nazi Germany liquidated 6M Jews, Roma, Slavs, Homosexulas, etc and was responsible for a World War that led to 95M additional deaths and unprecedented economic loss across the whole of Europe, Asia, and even the Americas.

You can't be serious, right?

the first step is to acknowledge he crimes commited in your name and there were many).
(blag, 15 February 2007, 17:56)

There is not one Serb who will not say that there were no crimes committed against the Albanian population in Kosovo , this was usual under Tito's totalitarian rule.

Brother and Unity was the call to keep a cap on the fervent nationalism especially portrayed by the Croatian republic in 1972 and then the Albanian community in 1974 and 1981 where purges occured of the Croatian and Albanian Communist leaderships.

Slobodan Milosevic was a pupil of Tito, Stombolic and the Communist Party . Stipe Mesic was also a fervent Communist who is now President of Croatia.

However, Milosevic brute force was a reaction to KLA insurgency, there can be no denial of that fact. Any leader will react to protect the sovereignty of its nation and people. The KLA intermingled with the Albanian civilians which made it that much more difficult to root them out.

Milosevic was the president of Serbia and eventually the rump Yugoslav federaton of Serbia and Montenegro. He never had control of the JNA when Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina pulled away from the Yugoslav federation. Ask former Croatian JNA General Kadijevic , Croatian President Ante Markovic and other's how they dealt with the dismemberment of Yugoslavia. So, the propoganda continues that Milosevic lost four wars is proposterous.

Finally, to allow a former KLA Terrorist Agim Ceku to lead a country is contradictory. The KLA was listed as a terrorist organization and under the US radar in Kosovo.

Dear Matthew,I am still waiting for your answer,are you coming to London for a drink,I am buying,you know what I mean.Cheers my friend.

Finally, to allow a former KLA Terrorist Agim Ceku to lead a country is contradictory. The KLA was listed as a terrorist organization and under the US radar in Kosovo.
(konstantin gregovic, 15 February 2007, 21:38)

That was then Constantin. Now they are surely listening to Agim Cheku a lot more than Kostunica and his cronies.

I have read all your comments so far. You are the only one who still defends Milosevic's actions.

And these types of attitudes coming along with yours from Serbs makes it almost imposible for Albanians to even think of the autonomy Kostunica offers.

What a disgrace of human thinking! 'May god put some light in your hearts.'

1. Serbia is not FRY, legal successor or not. If it were, it would be internationally known as such. Therefore, UNSC 1244 is not applicable, that is why a new resolution will be drafted in 2007.

2. We can argue til' the cows come home about why Germany, and Korea for that matter, had their borders changed.

The fact remains, the borders of two sovereign countries and their territorial integrity were changed post-WWII and post-UN charter draft. Thus precedents exist. Again proving that the serbian people and government have no basis for their fundamental arguement.

3."Finally, Nazi Germany liquidated 6M Jews, Roma, Slavs, Homosexulas, etc and was responsible for a World War that led to 95M additional deaths and unprecedented economic loss across the whole of Europe, Asia, and even the Americas."

Blag, I'm glad you hold such high standards, and expect such widespread devistation before the culprit is held to account. That a'baby. I'm sure that your position is very objective, and has nothing to do with the fact that you are Serbian. Not.

The fact is the INTENT and ACTIONS consistent with ethnic cleansing were employed by the Serbian government against Kosova's majority population, that led to international intereference and Bombs over Belgrade!

Serbia's criminal intentions and actions in Kosova give the UN, US, and EU plenty of legal power to render judgment against Serbia and create a new and independent country, as they did in Germany and Korea.

4. The bottom line is Kosova has the full support of the current world champion, Serbia is hoping for a has-been to protect their interests.

It is really unfortunate that Belgrade politicians have chosen "Our way or highway."
They are leaving no other options for world powers but to offer Belgrade's politicians the "Highway."

We Kosmet Serbs have been betrayed previously. However, this betrayel will certainly reward Kosmet Serbs with extiction. Mark my words gentlemen, the longer Belgrade pretends to care for Kosmet Serbs by denying, refusing, finger pointing, stalling for time, the more Serbs will pack their bags and leave. Not because Belgrade doesn't want to protect them, but because Belgrade won't be able to protect them for a long time. Any country where US has entered forcefully, it has never left, and it won't leave Kosmet. So, some of us Kosmet Serbs understand the reality better than those who have never stepped here.

Ahtisari's plan is not perfect, but it gives enough protection and autonomy to Serbian communities to live in peace.

Serbia is not wrong about their heritage claim and their right to protect serbs in Kosmet, It's wrong with the methods they try to achieve that.

Belgrade's philosophy is simple. As long as we are united with a common goal in the eyes of the west, it doesn't matter if we are wrong.

Some of you, who are accusing me of being on the Albanian side, I am not on the Albanian side or Belgrade's side, I am on the right side which is to stay here as long as there are comunities known as Serb Communities, as long as the last church stands, and we will rebuild them even if they fall.
SO, as long as I know that I am standing on the land owened by my great, grand father I will never leave. I will never leave as long as I hear thE last Serb say "Dobro jutro, komsije,"

But, I will disagree with all of you who believe that only Serbia can provide safety to Kosovo Serbs. I know Albanians can't. But EU and it's security forces will, but not if no one from Serbs is willing to trust EU and get a good bargain from this proposal.

Louie, I’m down, next time I’m in London, email me at lazslow@hotmail.com

“Several of comments I have read on this website encourage the Serbian gov't to ignore the West and EU, and pursue isolation? Are you serious? So the rest of the european countries are stupid for wanting to join the EU, and Serbia is the only smart cookie of the bunch? (adem jashari, 15 February 2007, 18:58)”

Adem,

I do not advocate ignoring the West, but for strengthening existing ties to Russia and China. The rest of Europe does not have the same geographical, historical and spiritual role as a bridge between East and West. Even those who speak our language are divided between the 3 major religious powers and interests in the region. The Serbs share an orthodox religion with the Russians and we were not members of the Soviet Block so have very little reason to dislike them. Clearly, in the UNSC Russia and China are assuredly the most sympathetic to our interests. Russia appears to be looking to pick a fight with the US over anything, or at least to humiliate them, at their greatest moment of weakness in the view of the world community. We should appreciate Putin’s offer of closer ties with our country and take him up on it. Serbia, in the middle of Europe, is naturally placed to have close ties to both Western and Eastern Europe. Tito is still associated with Nassir in the Middle East for their work together building the Non-Aligned Movement. There is no reason not to forge closer ties to the Non-Aligned movement and Hugo’s sweet oil deals. There really is no need to join NATO. Serbia doesn’t need anymore wars, I would even go so far as to endorse a major reduction in the military there. The EU is at a time in its history where its stability is at its lowest. Its bloated from absorbing so many nations under the Western European standard of living. Until those countries raise their economic level, there will be no resources for Serbia and no assurance that the EU will adapt policies that actually work. Its far better to let them make mistakes with the early countries and learn from them. We can wait, joining the EU does not mean jobs and freedom of movement or an equal say in things right now.

“Let’s not forget about the Islamic countries in the Middle East which back Kosova, not particularly because of our faith (we are largely moderate Muslims), but because our status is very closely tied to the Palestinian situation.

Israel has hinted it's support for Kosova’s independence, a direct signal to the neighboring Muslim countries that Israel would also support a Palestinian state if the extreme anti-Semitic rhetoric and influence is calmed down.”

That’s a really interesting theory you have going there. Lets see what the result would be if we applied the Kosovo formula to the Palestinian issue and whether it matches the known Israeli positions.

Basically, Palestinians would get East Jerusalem, they are the majority there, it was part of their country under the pre-1967 borders, something the UN and the world community demands (Not to mention containing Islam’s 3rd Holiest site. According to your theory, the Israeli’s should support this, however they don’t.

Under the Kosovo formula, all refugees would be allow a right of return. Also something the international community supports, yet Israel strongly opposes.

Can you imagine Israel support the kinds of autonomy for the Jewish settlers in Palestine that Serbs will have in Kosovo? No, they support a partition plan in Palestine.

Under the Kosovo formula, the Israeli Army would be bared from attacking Palestine or entering its terrorism, something I am very sure they would oppose.

As you can see, there really is no way Israel would accept any sort of Ahtsaari type compromise as a solution for the Palestinian issue. A partition plan for Kosovo would have far more bearing on the current situation in Palestine, and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that if Palestine ever gets true independence, that Israel will keep at least some of their territory.

Adem:

sorry, but you are wrong.

1. Serbia most definitely is the successor state to FRY. Serbia = FRY. see the EU site who recognized it: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/serbia/eu_serbia_and_montenegro_relations_en.htm

2. Germany was definitely not split apart due to its ww2 actions. Germany was split apart in the larger debate over who shall control europe... Moscow or Washington. See this: http://www.opb.org/education/coldwar/berlincrisis/events/index.html

3. Korea was not split apart, but went thru a civil war as a proxy between washington & moscow for control of the korean peninsula. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

in both cases the borders were changed by violence... either diplomatic or military. the UN had nothing to do with it.

finally, nazi germany DOES NOT equal milosevic serbia by any stretch of the imagination. i won't even begin to list the reasons b/c there are so many.

hey boris, i dont accuse you of "being on the albanian side"... i say that you have a poorly thought out strategy. by the way, i answered your earlier post here: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=39605

Mathew,

1. Serbia has forged close ties to Russia and China for years now, to no avail! How many times do you have to be burned before you stop playing with fire?

Be that as it may, it is not a foregone conclusion that Russia or China for that matter will veto anything! While, the US's intentions with respect to Kosova's independence are clear.

If Russia were indeed intending to pick a fight with the US they would come right out and threaten Veto. That would be the mark of a true power! Russia is stalling for time, China doesn't give a rat's you know what!

Another interesting theory is that Serbia has been publicly galvinizing about Russia's Veto power even before Russia has committed itself to such action. Sounds to me like Serbia is aware of the losses that are awaiting it, and wants to pass the blame off to the "traditional ally who had the opportunity to help Serbia and didn't".

2. Israel is willing to make many concesions, in order to secure it's peaceful existence in the Middle East. This is a well known fact! Recent dealings between Israel and Palestine are examples of such concessions (i.e. Gaza). Certainly there will be more to come.

Israel has made public statements endorsing Ahtisaari's plan, and the people of Kosova. This has been a clear signal to the rest of the Islamic states in the Middle East regions for Israel's intent with Palestine.

Matthew, for someone who is able to articulate their opinions very well, it would be surprising to me if you were to lack the intellect to understand that Policy is fluid and changes with time and circumstance. Nothing in the political arena is eternal!

For dozens of years now, Israel has, under the US protection, held the beliefs that you acurately stat. The US is slowly nudging them to cooperate fully. Israel will do so for the sake of the region's peace and stability.

The situation is strikingly similar with respect to Israel and Serbia! For years, Serbia had leverage on the Ballkan region due to the support it garnered from Russia. Now the support, in the real sense of substantial military and financial one, has vanished. Yet, Israel is in full support of the Kosova cause, and not Serbia. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3. Your rants about Tito and forging relationships with the non-allied Middle Eastern countries, and Hugo are wishfull thinking.

Serbia does not and never has had such clout in the international political stage to forge strategic relationships on its own.

One, among many other reasons, is because Tito represented a larger terriory in Yugoslavia, with many more resources and other strategic intrests, that Serbia proper lacks significantly.

Secondly, who in the current Serbian government reminds you of Tito? Tito was the exception, not the rule.

Try to understand that Yugoslavia, in it's glory days, was only as strong as the superpowers of the day wanted it to be, and Tito was their man. It had nothing to do with Serbia's political abilities.

4. Kosova's separation into the north and south is not an option, at least not in the near future, because the superpowers do not want Kosova separated.

Full independence of Kosova is inevitable, it is only a matter of what will the Russians get in return, and if Serbia is smart it should try to pursue some fringe benefits for it's "signature".

Adem:

Sorry to disagree with you yet again. Yes, Russia is not supporting Serbia b/c it's being friendly (Russia will do what's good for Russia). Russia is supporting Serbia because it is flexing its muscles. It is re-establishing itself on the world stage. It is picking a fight with a bleeding Washington after being humiliated by Washington - an out-of-control superpower. Some very serious American newspapers have already drawn attention to the heightened Cold War era rhetoric. Serbia was smart enough to read the signs and is piggybacking the K issue on the Russian strategy (and Russia is obliging). We both are caught in a super-power showdown. Do not be naïve. But make no mistake... the era of hyper-super power has officially ended. It is OVER and washington will CONFORM to it!

Blag,
You continue to avoid addressing the issues at hand.
1. EU recognized Serbia as the successor of FRY, but I am not aware of a UN act that does the same. Remember this is a UN resolution! The UNSC 1244 refers to FRY only and not to the Republic of Serbia.

2. Arguing the reasons why Korea and Germany were separated into two separate countries is best suited for another forum. But your attempts to distract the focus from the points made is duly noted.

Again, the borders and territorial integrity of two countries was changed. Both occured in recent history, and the UN recongizes(ed) them as valid international entities (Federal Republic of Germany&German Democratic Republic, and South Korea&North Korea). This is the fundamental arguement at hand! Is there a precedent where the borders of a formerly sovereing country were changed and where the UN de-facto recognized these changes as internationally valid? Yes there are at least two. Please clearly explain why the examples given do not fit the bill?

By your arguement, the US does not need a UN resolution at all! There was a civil war between Serbs and Albanians in 1999. The US supports Kosova, Russia supports Serbia. Russia can set up camp in Serbia, the US already has a camp in Kosova. Build a wall along the current borders and we have two separate countries without UN interfernece.

Yet the UN will have two precedents to recognize the newly formed Republic of Kosova. Russia knows this, that's why they won't Veto, they will abstain. China doesn't care! If anything, they want Russia to be humiliated by the US again, so that China can continue to establish it's position as the sole superpower in the Eastern Hemisphere.

4. Lastly, Blag, you may or may not be aware of the theory of relativity. One can apply that logic here when discussing whether Serbia's acts were Nazi-like or not. You have your opinions, and we have ours.

The tie breakers is in the fact that your country faces numerous international lawsuits, one verdict pending in less than one week (see "Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
(Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro)" on the international court of justice's website.

I will continue to humiliate you in this public forum, and prove you wrong if you do not put forth a better effort when structuring your arguements. Come on man, I know you can give me a better run for my money.

PS: Have you ever looked up the name Adem Jashari in Wikipedia? G'Head, give it a whirl!

"Russia is supporting Serbia because it is flexing its muscles. It is re-establishing itself on the world stage. It is picking a fight with a bleeding Washington after being humiliated by Washington - an out-of-control superpower. "

In the world of power and "muscle-flexing", you say what you mean and mean what you say! You do not tip-toe around the issue. If Russia had significant power they would have dealt the Veto blow already!

Again, you are wishing upon a shooting-star. Kosova on the other hand is being actively protected and energized by the US greenback baby, the mighty dollar.

Blag you are Russia's proxy, which is in a very peculiar position since China seeks to permanently grab hold of it's rightful title as the sole Superpower of the East. Unfortunately for you, your big brother is done. Mine is still strong.

When was the last time the Russia or China had the audacity to attack a US ally? US on the other hand has been able to weild it's power without any hesitation.

We are all lucky that the US is a righteous nation, with solidarity and mercy, who seeks to pacify the world and promote prosperity. If Russia or China had the power that the US currently holds, we would all be in a world of trouble. God Bless These United States of America!

So the rest of the european countries are stupid ......

As an example, after WWII, Germany, a fully sovereign country was divided into two separate countries until the late '80s, when the two countries decided to re-join.

The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, (adem jashari, 15 February 2007, 18:58)

Your interpetation of the events leading to the split of East and West Germany are completely wrong and erroneous.

The allies led by the US invaded Germany from the west while Russia invaded Germany from the East in 1945. So, Berlin was split between Russia, France,English and US sectors.

The Cold war between the US and Russia resulted in Germany being split between East and West. The split of Germany had absolutely nothing to do with the horrible and aggressive acts that Nazi Germany committed in Europe.


Your analogy and historical facts are against all historical accounts and texts. Germany was split because of the Russian sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.

Konstantine,
Another spin master! Please do not try to confuse the core argument. The question is: Does a precedent exist for the international imposition and changing of borders and territorial integrity of a sovereign country, without the said country’s explicit permission to do so?

Germany's aggressions during WWII lead to its invasion! Surely you are not arguing with me on that point? My statement simply says that the invasion of Germany was invited by her own actions. That invasion, eventually, lead to the division of Germany by the superpowers of the time. It is hard to think that Germany would have been divided if the foreign powers did not have reason to invade in the first place! Albeit in a smaller scale, the similarities between the current situation in Serbia and post-Nazi Germany are, otherwise, difficult to ignore.

The invasion of Kosova was invited by the Serbian actions there. KLA, NATO, EU, and the US found the Serbian actions to be egregious enough to label them as Genocide and engage their military forces against yours. Ultimately leading to the US led invasion of Kosova, and the initiation of the "status talks" i.e. independence of Kosova and changing of borders. You can argue all you want about whether this comparison to Nazi Germany is fair. The decision has been rendered, and foreign forces have been in “your” territory for almost a decade now.

Again, debating about the nuances of why Germany and Korea were divided of course are more complicated issues and better suited for another forum. Nevertheless, it does not change the fact that the borders and territorial integrity of two sovereign countries were, in 1 out of 2 cases, permanently altered.

This is the fundamental argument. Precedents for changing the borders of a sovereign country exist, as proven by the Germany and Korean models. You sir, and your government erroneously argue to the contrary.

"Though the goal of the Western powers was to revive Germany, both economically and socially through a united effort, the Soviet Union feared this alliance - partly because the merged zones would have greater power than the Soviet zone, and partly because of continued feelings of hostility and resentment towards Germany."

Blag, you probably recognize this as a direct quote from the link that you posted in your comment regarding Germany's division and WWII.

This quote proves two things to me:
1. Russia has a history of non-compliance, non-constructive, and stalling international policy. Nothing positive has ever come out of Russia's meddling in foreign affairs.

2. Again, read the latter part of the quote more carefully. It acknowledges that part of the reason for the division of Germany was Russia's "hostility and resentment" towards Germany. This clearly implies that Germany's actions during WWII played a significant role in the foreign imposition on Germany's territorial sovereignity.

"The division of Korea into North Korea and South Korea stems from the 1945 Allied victory in World War II, ending Japan's 35-year occupation of Korea. In a proposal opposed by nearly all Koreans, the United States and the Soviet Union agreed to temporarily occupy the country as a trusteeship with the zone of control demarcated along the 38th Parallel. The purpose of this trusteeship was to establish a Korean provisional government which would become "free and independent in due course."[1] Though elections were scheduled, the two superpowers backed different leaders and two states were effectively established, each of which claimed sovereignty over the whole Korean peninsula"

Blag, this is a quote from the link that you posted on your comment regarding my arguement of North and South Korea as precedents.

This proves my premise that international (i.e. superpower) interference lead to the creation of two new sovereign states from one Korea without the people's consent. Yet another legal precedent, whichever way you want to slice this cake. Need I say more?

Adem,
I think you misunderstand what I suggest as a possible policy to follow. I never said I thought Russia would actually use a veto, I’m not convinced either. They are most certainly in a better position to throw their weight around then back in the 90’s. While the US is most certainly at their lowest in international public opinion right now.

“Policy is fluid and changes with time and circumstance. Nothing in the political arena is eternal!”

I think your above statement actually supports my position that Putin’s Russia is not the same Russia as under Yelstin.

“Kosova's separation into the north and south is not an option, at least not in the near future, because the superpowers do not want Kosova separated”

Again, your statement regarding fluidity in politics ensures this is not set in stone. The history of US opinion towards the KLA is a prime example. First it was a terrorist group, then freedom fighters, then terrorists again when they went into Macedonia (Assuming that was in fact ex-KLA helping organize that rebellion). This change happened over a rapid period of time as well.

I do think that International public opinion could change in regards to partition if Albanians slip up and engage in significant violence. I think the vast majority of Kosovars are smarter then that, but every side has its extremists and it only takes a small number of people to start trouble.

“If Russia were indeed intending to pick a fight with the US they would come right out and threaten Veto. That would be the mark of a true power!”

Now back to Russia, and Serbia’s relation to it. Russia’s recent statements are enough to ensure that Serbia’s position will at least get a somewhat fair assessment by the UNSC. Whether they’ll do more then that, or if it will have an effect on those countries yet undecided, I make no predictions. Russia appears to be looking for a fight with the US over whatever they can. Putin is fairly smart and he’s obviously gauging public reaction, and its still an unknown how and over what he will choose to express Russian strength. Bumping off ex-KGB in the middle of a Western Country with crazy radioactive poison is pretty ballsy, so I think anything is possible. It has to be something relatively safe that won’t jeopardize the security of the entire planet. To me, I don’t think they’ll fight that much over Iran or North Korea, those have too much potential for real trouble, and neither country really wants that. Kosovo certainly could be a good fit in a lot of ways. The US is awfully quiet on the Kosovo issue, and in the press here (I’m in the US) the recent coverage regarding Russia’s hostile stance does not mention Kosovo, only the other issues. The US could then claim victory against Russia on some issue in the Middle East, like Iran or whatever, something that is actually on the minds of the American people and plays into his whole crusade against “Islamic fascism”. Kosovo was Clinton’s war, and the republicans have always been rather negative about the whole thing, I could see them sweeping it under the rug for something else they could claim as a bigger victory. Humanitarian crisis mean nothing to the US if its not in their interest. For the Russian side, exerting their power in the face of EU is likely the type of thing Putin would do and he’s certainly talking more about Kosovo in public then President Bush. Showing the EU that they aren’t the only influence in Europe would be Russia’s goal, not necessarily that they care that much for the Serbian people (Bush probably likes the idea of Putin throwing his weight around with the “snotty” French and Germans for not supporting us in our war on terror). I’m not saying that will be what happens, but given the existing geo-political situation right now, it’s a plausible scenario. Partition could then allow the EU members to pat themselves on the back and say how good they are for granting the Kosovars independence. Again, I’m not saying that will happen, but if it did, I think it would go something like that. As I’ve said, any violence by the Albanian side at this point in time, might convince those EU members on the fence that maybe partition is the best solution after all. I’m pretty sure that partition could find support among the Kosovar population if it were fair and gave them immediate recognition and independence. While I am sure the Kosovar people would be willing to go through a messy process of independence through unilateral recognition by the US, I also think that many might support an immediate and safe end to the current mess. However, yeah, if you ask me if Kosovo independence is likely or not, yeah in some form I think it will be. I do think a real attempt at compromise and negotiation should take place, not to yield results, but to work on just talking with one another. No matter what, we will be living next to one another. I am sorry for the suffering of the Kosovar people.

As far as economic ties to Russia, we should definitely improve them. Their oil is as good as gold. Our two people have a great affinity for one another, there really is no reason not to build stronger ties with Russia. A strong Russia is good for the world. The US needs a counter balance to their power or they will just run amuck all over the place like they’ve been doing. The US is not civilized at this time, despite your assertions, I think the only fairly civilized countries are mostly in Western Europe right now.

Also by building stronger ties to Russia, the European community will in fact pay more attention to us. It would only help us join the EU, if and when we decide they have worked out their issues. The EU also will want balance between east and west, not all EU countries back the US as strongly as the UK. Russia is right there, and they are a part of Europe. Trade between the two will happen and is happening. Serbia is the natural go-between for such a relationship. Serbia must adopt Western standards of service, expand their economy, and continue on political reform and democracy. We must do these things in order to compete. However, we must not turn a blind eye to the east and only see the EU as our entire future. It’s a global marketplace in this day and age.

Clearly Serbia should certainly try to associate themselves with Tito’s foreign policies. It would be a smart PR move. Serbs in general reject many of his domestic policies, but even his detractors admit to his foreign policy genius. There is absolutely no reason why not to attempt to pursue such a policy. Sadly, Serbia currently does not have a person of political caliber as Tito, but then again, there’s always cloning! Lol…

As far as Israel goes, are you really making the argument that they will in fact agree to go back to the pre-1967 borders? That they will allow all the refugee’s to return? Keep in mind if all the refugee’s returned to Israel, they would outnumber Jews living there, somehow I doubt they support that position, now or ever. No matter what happens, they will most likely get away with ethnically cleansing large parts of Israel proper and most likely steal additional territory from the Palestinians. I try follow that stuff, and it seems to me they’re building this nice big fence that cuts right through parts of Palestinian territory. I’m sure you’ve heard of it. Yeah, sure the US is gently nudging them in the right direction and even a little bit more strongly then they have during the last 30 years! Israel has made the wonderful concession that Palestinians actually might deserve a State of their own, instead of some stateless population without even the right to vote. Strange though, the US seems to love bombing countries that disregard UN resolutions, yet we gently nudge them when they misbehave. I personally find it all rather odd that we still sell them cluster bombs to use on civilians like they did in Lebanon. Do you think it would have been appropriate for Serbia to use cluster bombs on cities and civilian areas to root out the KLA like Israel did looking for Hezbollah? Keep in mind officially according to the US state department policy the KLA was originally a terrorist organization, so should Serbia have used cluster bombs at that time when the US said they were terrorists? No, of course not. But yeah, you’re absolutely right, the US is taking a really tough stand on Israel now, I’m sure next time they use cluster bombs on civilians we will in fact stop selling them to them, as was stipulated in the original sales agreement. If there is any connection between Palestine and Kosovo its only so that Israel can score some cheap points with the Muslim countries. While their motivations are obviously multi-faceted, I personally think they are supporting it more because they support US policy and the PR agency hired by Croatia was successfully able to link public opinion of Serbian behavior to that of Nazi crimes. That PR firm was particularly proud of winning over the Jewish lobby in this.

I do however see a lot of similar parallels between the issues involved in Palestine and Kosovo. On that we can agree. However, I simply can not believe Israel would agree to the same sorts of conditions that the Serbs are being asked to agree to. To try to say that Israel would support Kosovo because they want to impose a similar solution for their problem with the Palestinians is nonsense and that is what you are implying in your statement.

Of course all of this is a vast over simplification of the issues and the players and what’s going on. The Balkans have always been an extremely complicated place. Lets all try to remain calm and have patience and understanding for whatever the outcome is.

“PS: Have you ever looked up the name Adem Jashari in Wikipedia? G'Head, give it a whirl!
(Adem Jashari, 16 February 2007, 18:23)”

Can we infer that you are a member of said Jashari clan and that perhaps you are also the author of that article on Wiki? I’m also going to guess you are somewhere in your twenties, possibly mid-twenties or maybe younger. Just curious, but how close am I to being correct?

Clearly you are rather bright and some of your arguments are interesting, however, you won’t get a rile outta me. I’m well aware that getting an emotional reaction out of a poster is an excellent way of distracting them from staying on point with their message. I see you trying to use that tactic. Your bright enough that your arguments and reasoning are far stronger then your ability to get a reaction out of people. I’m an old school gamer, so I got tired of that kind of interaction a while ago. However, if you wanna debate one of my teenage sons that way, I’ll drag em over.

RE: Split of Germany-1945

Again, let me reiterate to you that under all the conferences including Yalta , Germany was not to be split between the allies and the Soviet Union. Stalin invaded East Germany and thus began the cold war.

Germany's territorial integrity was not to be compromised, that was the mistake made after WWI in the Treaty of Versailles which led to WWII and Hitler rising to power.

If for arguments sake there is a comparison, how is Kosovo's protecorate status comparitive to Germany's copitulation to the allies and the Soviet Union in 1945 comparable? Need I remind you that Serbia did not copitulate to Nato illegal 78 day bombing. Did NATO invade Serbia? That option was on the table, but did not have EU support.

UNSC 1244 was signed in good faith with provisions guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Serbia. Germany armistence was subject to no negotiation and only accepted on all terms demanded by the allies and not subject to negotiation.

.

Konstantine,
1. Russia lost it's "counter-balance" position to the US's power with the fall of the Berlin Wall. China is quickly establishing its rightful position as the sole superpower of the East!

2. Russia is ruffling its feathers publicly, and the lack of press in the US regarding the Kosova issue is because they are not giving Russia the podium it is seeking to be non-constructive with regards to public policy! What concrete solution has Russia proposed for the Kosova situation? They were kicked out of Kosova by the NATO forces, and since then they've lost any possible interests there! This is just a political stunt in their part. As a beggar in a market, they are trying to hustle a few "gimmes" from the US! They may get something, but the Kosova’s issue is going to be resolved by in large according to US plans.

3. You are overestimating Russia's economic stability and military fortitude. In the global economy, they rank almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations in economic strength. They are even worse in debt than the US, with no significant and comparable GDP. They are a hostage of the very same system that they want to begin to have a say in. But, it won't happen any time soon.

4. The US is going through a defining period in its history no question about it. My faith in the US's success lies firmly on 3 grounds:

A) The governing system in place is unmatched by any other nation in this world. Even when you have a questionable leader like Bush, the country is not necessarily doomed because of the balance of power. No one man or branch can bring this country down. You would have to agree that the US model is ingenious, and difficult to make any more perfect than it is. I’ve lived in the US (and not just in NY, but form the NE, to the SW, and to the Midwest) over half of my life as well. So I am in tune with what is going on.

B) The capitalistic economy ensures that emotions are kept aside, and that the interest of and the well-being of the country is pursued. Along with point one, this adds another security layer that ensures the longevity of this country.

C) The will of the US people. This has to be a nation with the best spirit I have ever encountered in my travels. You can knock them down (very rarely, but it happens on occasion), but you cannot keep them down. They will come back stronger every time. Their ability and resolution to think outside the box and always find a better way to do things seems to be ingrained in their DNA.

Nothing lasts forever, but for the foreseeable future, the US is the hyper-power of the Galaxy.

5. Policy is fluid, and things in the international politics are certainly not eternal. However, you are a-priori assuming that Russia has made a return to the global stage as the superpower it once was, now the Putin is in charge! This guy is a dictator, who kills those who threaten him politically. Wow, you are right; Serbia and Russia have quite a bit in common. That is not the mark of a smart and sophisticated political leader, but rather a brutal and wimpy one! China is and will be the counter-balance to the US not Russia! Have you heard of any extremely negative comments from them? Again, no actual commitment to a veto from Russia either.

6. Israel may or may not make all the concessions we argue about, but they certainly are going to make more than they want to! Allowing refugees to return and outnumbering Jewish people has no barring on anything. Jews are already outnumbered by Arabs in that part of the world. Kosova's situation, like it or not, is being used as the possible framework for the Palestine solution (with some adjustments of course).

Israel used cluster bombs against its enemies; the US did the same against the FRY army! Sh+% happens brother! But don't assume a holier-than-thou position because Serbia did not have cluster bombs in it's arsenal to use against Albanians! I’m certain they would have without hesitation. Does Serbreinca ring a bell? Sure, no cluster bombs were used, but I’d swallow a cluster bomb and die that way sooner than I would be treated like an animal like those poor souls in Serbrenica were. Have you seen pictures of infants in Prekaz with half of their face shot off by the Serbian big-caliber weapons?

The US gave every opportunity to Serbia do amend its ways, but after Serbia's acts against Slovenia, Croatia, BiH and Srebrenica, they had enough when you started it in Kosova! You are wrong to assert that it was Clinton's war. But, even if it was, with the current Democratic congress in place, I would hypothesize that Serbia's case against independence is in deep dookie. The majority of all congressmen, GOP and Dems, are united in their stand for stability in the Balkans, and Independent Kosova as the only way to achieve that goal.

7. Applying the Germany model is of course in order by your argument. If you consider Kosova as part of Serbian territory, as I’m sure you do, then yes you have foreign armies in your territory, and they can apply the same reason for separating Kosova from Serbia, as Russia did to Germany. The borders of a sovereign country were changed in Germany's case, thus a precedent exists. That is my argument. Let's stick to it! I don't want to discuss the nuances of why it happened, the point is that it did happen. Whether Germany's division should or shouldn't have happened as you state is not the question. The point is that it did, and the two resulting new countries were recognized by all international institutions as legitimate states.

8. Assuming that Kosova is not in the US's strategic interest, is another a-priori mistake you make. While just last night, on NPR, they said that Italy is contemplating asking the US to remove its military forces from their country! Where do you think they would be stationed afterward? I'll give you a hint, it's the second largest US military base in EU, and it's located about 30miles west of Prishtina. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding...You are correct Mr. Konstantine, Camp Bond Steel is the right answer.

Don't underestimate the forethought of US policy: a moderately Muslim people, with aspirations of freedom, who will just as soon die for the US's cause as they would for theirs, and the kicker- US will help this little country gain it's independence and military strength in face of the aggressor (who happens to be Christian and aligned with the evil-Russian clan).

9. I am neither a descendant of, nor a particular follower of the KLA positions and tactics. But I admire their military and political astuteness, for it certainly aided Kosova in at least achieving the US’s full and transparent involvement in the Kosova issue.

My post was simply to attract your attention to the fact that nowhere on that link was the noun "terrorist" used! Comparing KLA to a terrorist network, like you do with Hezbollah, is unfair and illogical! KLA did not attack civilian targets, or any targets outside of Kosova for that matter!! Its mantra was to strictly engage against Serbian military, police, and para-military forces only-this was why they were removed from US's terrorist list!

Please read the definition of "terrorist" first before making such assertions and miss-characterizations. Do you think that the US would allow Agim Ceku to become prime minister of Kosova if he truly was considered a terrorist? They removed Ramush Haradinaj immediately when charges of human rights violations against him were formally declared.

Of course isolated cases of human-rights abuses undoubtedly occurred on the KLA's side, but that was not the formal policy of KLA. This was because they were trained and directed by US special-forces and intelligence units, otherwise they may have taken to such violence. As a result, initially they were labeled a terrorist group, until the US was assured that KLA is willing and capable to play within the US's rules. On the other hand, Serbia's official policy was to employ systematic ethnic cleansing tactics against all people which it perceived enemies of the state.

6. I am very confident in my ability to construct logical and thought-out arguments, but thank you for the compliment anyway. Assuming that I listed Mr. Jashari's name to get an emotional response from you is again erroneous on your part. I am bringing to the forefront something the Serbian nation is not willing to acknowledge. The fact is, if Adem Jashari was alive today, your gov't would have had to negotiate with him, like it or not, just like you have to negotiate with Agim Ceku now.

My point was to stimulate your countrymen to look a little deeper into the K Albanians movement and their lives in the last century, and understand where we are coming from! Placing blanket labels on everything as you are prone to do, does not resolve your problems.

As the neighbors that you state we are, Serbia has made no effort to understand and legitimize Albanians claims of the right to live and exist in Kosova in peace. On the contrary, you continue to argue that we don't even have the right to be there and that we somehow miraculously dropped in from the sky and invaded Kosova! It's illogical and irresponsible in Serbian people’s part.

Albanians know all about your history, because we were forced to learn yours while our history was intentionally completely miss-categorized and prohibited from being taught even in our schools, I don’t even want to think about what was taught in Serbian schools! I can name dozens of your historic figures: Car Lazar, Vuk Karadic, Stefan Nemanja, Car Dusan, etc, etc. I can read and write (Latin and Cyrillic), and speak Serbian. I know your holidays, religious and otherwise. Yet, I never lived in Serbia proper. I maybe had a handful of Serbian “friends.” Believe me when I say this, I am the rule and not the exception.

What do you know about us, our history, our language, customs, and culture? Knowledge is power, ignorance is bliss! Your propensity to dismiss and disregard everything Albanian is the prime reason in my opinion that your state finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If you truly were a civilized, democratic, and highly educated nation, you would have made every effort for the two groups to integrate, at least in Kosova.

7. You are underestimating Albanian's will and political intelligence to keep Mitrovica. Trading it at this point would be stupid. Kosova's main economic growth and foreign investments will come from the mining in Trepqa. Serbian's there (with Serbia’s influence of course) can have governance of the region, but all of Kosova will share in the revenues of the mines. Believe that.

That's why I said the division of Kosova won't happen in the short term! The west realizes that until the entire economy begins to hum along, Kosova will need all its resources to establish itself in the economic market. Maybe 30-50 years down the road, some form of independence would be granted to the northern region in exchange for the Preseva valley, but in the meantime, we are all going to share in that pot-of-gold known as Trepqa.

You are right about my age, but wrong on all other counts. One last note, I would be happy to engage you and your son together in a lively debate. I believe I have enough bite in my bark to give you both a good run.

i must admit that adem makes some very strong points and he has clearly proved me wrong on one of these points.(although adem... i really don't think you need to "humiliate me"... you can just say "hey man, you are wrong and you dont know what you are talking about"). and in this case you would be absolutely correct!

i went to the wikipedia site and looked up member nations of the UN. and adem is correct. serbia is NOT the successor state of FRY (i long thought that it was)... and this of course creates a very big hole in the "scenario" i crafted.

as for the second thing (korea/ germany).... i read that too... and went to some other sites. i must say i am not 100% convinced.... but i will say i am more convinced than before. there clearly was a feeling of resentment at germany's actions and it played a big role in their loss of sovereignity. however, what is unclear to me is whether the UN was even recognized by the majority of the world when germany was split up in ww2?

as for korea... i really don't know too much about their situation.

finally, yes i do know who adem jashari was. he and his entire family were basically executed by milosevic's army about 10 yers ago. i think it was over 50 people in one house. it was a great crime by the serbs -- one of many they committed against the people of kosovo.

Whoever posted as Blag is just being childish (our wiki fan Adem perhaps?), its funny, but very obvious.

Adem your critical thinking is excellent and you have a great gut instinct to shoot from the hip. Your understanding of the complexities is far greater then when I was your age, but in your haste to make so many comments you neglected to check a few points in regards to my statements.

“Serbia did not have cluster bombs in it's arsenal to use against Albanians! I’m certain they would have without hesitation.”

The truth is Serbian forces did in fact have cluster bombs, and in fact actually used them on Zagreb, something Milan Martic was charged with War Crimes for. I agree this is a crime, and your statement regarding the US using them on FRY forces supports my assertion that it’s different conditions for different people. Hypocritical if you will. In addition, when the US agreed to sell said cluster bombs to Israel, the Israeli’s signed an agreement not to use them in civilian areas, which they violated when they bombed Lebanon. The US protested but in the end, yet again, only “gently nudged” them to stop doing mean stuff to people.

I suppose if you are saying that Israel will pretend it’s giving the Palestinians the same conditions they support as a solution to Kosovo, I could probably agree. They will most certainly spin it that way. However, I don’t think they will play that card very strongly, the have other cheap PR points that may be more effective, and they don’t want anyone looking too closely at the “fine points” between the two sets of different concessions.

Also,

“Allowing refugees to return and outnumbering Jewish people has no barring on anything. Jews are already outnumbered by Arabs in that part of the world.”

One of the biggest points of contention in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as you should know, is what to do with the millions of Palestinian refugees scattered across the Arab lands who were ethnically cleansed from Israel proper (not Gaza or West Bank). Palestinians who live in Israel proper, not Gaza etc., have full voting rights and Israeli citizenship. If these refugees were to return, they would outnumber Jews, and thus control the Israeli government. Its obvious the Israeli’s have to oppose this, but on the other hand you have literally millions of incredibly poor and long suffering refugees stuck in camps all around the Middle East. The official UN position on this is they do in fact have the right to return. The Palestinians in the end will be forced to accept ethnic cleansing and the theft of at least some of their land against the stated position of the international community.

I’m guessing you’re already fairly knowledgeable about Balkan history and politics and now you are moving into getting to learn about Middle Eastern Politics more in depth. The two do have a long history with one another, and you can not fully understand one, without having studied the history and geopolitical structure of the other. In addition I have studied as much Albanian history as possible, but its often hard to find materials in English. Feel free to make suggestions. Of course I read Noel Malcolms book. I’m particularly interested in clan structure, blood feuds and that sorta thing. Old School stuff, origins, histories etc.

Oh, btw “Blag” (*cough cough* Adem), I did check out what wiki had to say (like it’s a legit cite to source anyway, lol). According to wiki FRY did not succeed Yugoslavia in the UN, but Serbia did succeed FRY. FRY is who is mentioned in Resolution 1244, as I’m sure you know. Here’s the actual quote.

• The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was admitted on 1 November 2000, replacing, instead of succeeding, the seat of Yugoslavia held by the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (officially the SFRY remained a UN member until that day). The FRY changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro on 4 February 2003. After the declaration of independence by Montenegro on 3 June 2006, the membership of Serbia and Montenegro in the UN, including all organs and organizations of the UN system, has been continued by Serbia on the basis of Article 60 of the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro.
While its an interesting argument, clearly Article 60 clearly states the reality. Here’s the link to the actual document. Can we please put the argument over 1244 to rest now? It mentions 1244 specifically.

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Facts/const_scg.pdf

Matthew,
"Oh, btw “Blag” (*cough cough* Adem), " I know you were suggesting to bringing in your son to our debate, I'm glad he got a word in or a phrase I should say.

You continue to underestimate me, thank you for making it easier for me to continuously prove you wrong.

1. I have no need or intentions to mis-direct anyone by posting my comments under the screen name of another person who regularly participates in this forum. That is dishonest and unethical. My arguements and statements are based on a sound foundations, so I don't need to ride anyone's coat-tail for an ego fix. In short, I did not post "Blag's" response.

Now on to dismanteling your other points:

2. Just because Serbia had cluster-bombs in its arsenal during the Croatian/Serbian war, doesn't meen you had any when you attacked Kosova! Remember, your country was cowardly using the Yugoslavian army which was way better armed and prepared than the Serbian army of the latter 90s. Cluster bombs were provided by the US, after the embargo, where would have the serbian army gotten them?

Why such a propensity in your part to make incorrect a-priori conclusions?

Furthermore, even if you could prove beyond reasonable doubt that Serbia did have the cluster bombs but chose not to use them in Kosova, but used them in Croatia, your attempt of taking the higher ground compared to the US or Israel is null-and-void.

Look at the systemic ethnic cleansing that was put in place by the Serbian gov't, don't avoid the issue at hand. I already refered you to the ICJ website which clearly shows the case of Genocide your country is standing trial for. Again, I'll take a cluster bomb over going through Srebrenica anyday.

3. Israel has proclaimed it's support for Ahtisaari's plan. Say what you will about their intentions with the Palestinians, they ARE READY to make real deals with the Palestinians (ie. the West Bank and Gaza, prisoner releases, etc, etc).

No one is suggesting that millions of refugees will return to East Jerusalem tomorrow! In time, compromises will be made, but they have to start somewhere. Israel is giving the Muslim countries a chance to start that dialog with Israel regarding Palestine on a similar framework to that of Kosova.

Some form of de-centralization, local rule and gov't, free-movement, economic prosperity and advancement etc, etc will take place. I'm not a scholar of international politics, middle east or otherwise, but I do analyze the current situation critically with the information that I have available.

As a result, neither I nor you can predict with 100% certainty what will happen down the road, but you would be a fool not to recognize that Israel sees the Kosova experiment as a viable option for the resolution of their conflict.

3. You continue to avoid effectively and factually rebutting my statements that a precedent for changes made to the borders of sovereign countries made by international powers in recent history exists in at least two cases!

4. If you compare the actions and official purpose of KLA gainst the offical definition of a terrorist group on Webster's dictionary, you will clearly see that KLA does not fit the description. They are regarded as para-military/guerrilla fighters and not terrorists. Again one man's dirty stone is another man's diamond.

Yet the fact remains, your gov't still has to negotiate with former top commander of KLA, like you would have had to negotiate with Adem Jashari if he were alive today. While Millosheviq (a former head of state) and his croneys rotted in jail cells!

5. I learned Serbian, why don't you learn Albanian and make the effort to learn about your neighbor? Plus, there are several books that are written in english and by western historians about Kosova and Albanians at large. Too bad Serbians' inherent propensity to discount and disregard anything pro-Albanian as a direct correlation to it being pro-Serb does not allow you to read this information objectively.

But, it is of no surprise to me that you take comfort in your lack of desire to learn, as learning would undoubtadly force you to change your way of thinking on many levels. Should you sincerely insist upon learning more about Kosova and it's people, I would be more than happy to direct you to non-biased and objective material. You would have to promise me that you would approach them with an open and objective mind.

6."In a letter dated 3 June 2006, the President of the Republic of Serbia informed the Secretary-General that the membership of Serbia and Montenegro was being continued by the Republic of Serbia, following Montenegro’s declaration of independence. On 4 February 2003, following the adoption and promulgation of the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro by the Assembly of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the official name of “ Federal Republic of Yugoslavia” was changed to Serbia and Montenegro. The Socialist “Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new Members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was admitted as a Member of the United Nations by General Assembly resolution A/RES/55/12 of 1 November 2000."

This here thing Matthew, is a direct quote from the UN Members States, July 3rd 2006 press release.

I am not convinced from reading this passage that the UN Security Council explicitly or implicitly sanctions any particular article on the SCG Constitution Charter as one that may have any barring on the UNSC Resolution 1244 with respect to after the dissolution of FRY.

In other words, the "contract" known as UN SC 1244 was signed by the FRY and mentioned the borders of FRY, an not either Republic explicitly in addition to the borders of the then-FRY, or SCG following FRY.

Those borders automatically changed after Montenegro's secession anyways. Just because Serbia continued SCG in the UN Assembly, it does not de-facto mean that the UNSC 1244 applies to the newly formed Republic of Serbia.

Maybe if Serbia did not change its official name and currency more often than The Former Artist Known As Prince changes his name and pants, you wouldn't find your self questioning the entire application of UN SC 1244 to the current situation.

7. Let us for a moment assume that UNSC 1244 is applicable to the change in border issue. Even if this were to be so, the fact that a precedent exists for the creation of two new states from one state in no less than two recent historical examples, makes Kosova's issue that much more easier to solve according to the US's plan.

8. Lastly, I haven't heard one plausible alternative proposed by the Serbian government? What does more than autonomy-less than independence mean?

Is Serbia ready to change it's name to something like the Republic of Serbia and the Provincial Authority of Kosova?

How about making Serbian and Albanian the official languages of that new country?

Incorporating Albanian insignia in that state's formal insignia?

Recognizing at the state level, once and for all, the Albanian's rightful existance in Kosova where they enjoy ethnic majority as their historical habitat?

Making Albanians a protected entity within the new country's laws, even going so far as guaranteeing them tax breaks and exemptions, quotas and assistance in education and financial improvement?

Making sure that Albanian history as well as Serbian history is learned in every school?

Granting veto power to a Kosova official elected solely by Kosova people, regarding Kosova matters, who would be granted a co-PM title in the new country's goverenment regarding Kosova issues?

Agreeing to 4 year terms for the PM position, and guaranteeing that every 5th election cycle an Albanian, as elected by the Kosova people, would be granted Prime Minister title of the entire country if one had not been elected by the general elections within that 5 cycle term? This would ensure that at least 20% of the time, this new country would be lead by a leader elected by 20% of the population representing roughly 20% of the physical territory.

Allowing international monitoring forces to stay in Kosova to assure fairness by all sides?

Allowing free movement of people and capital between the Kosova Provincial Authority and Albania?

In 35-50 years the people of both regions can hold a fair referendum to decide whether they want to continue in Unity?

Make a public and unequivacal statement apologizing to the people of Kosova, specifically the Albanians, for the cruel and inhumane treatment that Albanians endured under the Serbian regime?

Reimburse all Albanians for lost lives, wages, property, and emotional distress during the abuse we endured for 25 years?

Find and return all of the missing bodies of albanians that have been missing since the 1998?

Hold responsible all of those responsible for ethnic cleansing during the war?

This my friend would have been a sincere effort by Serbia to have offered 5 or 6 years ago, and the Western powers would have probably accepted it!

Subjectively speaking, as an Albanian, I would have been disappointed initially for not receiving my independence, but if this plan were to be enforced in full, I would reap benefits that would have possibly made it worthwhile down the road for me to try in earnest and make it work one last time with the Serbian neighbor.

Serbians would also have time to see if providing for this territory is really worth it for them if the people there are not going to get along.

35-50years, if such a plan were to be employed, would have been enough time for the current factions and hatered to pass tone down, and the new and informed generation to grab the bull by the horns.

If this was put on the table immediately after Millosheviq was handed to Hague, this type of an offer by the Serbian gov't in good faith to Kosova, would have had a chance.

Instead, the Serbian gov't and its people chose to engage in propaganda that sounded like more of the same to the Western powers. Bon apetite!

“I have no need or intentions to mis-direct anyone by posting my comments under the screen name of another person”

Duly noted and I apologize. The wiki comments seemed related.

“it is of no surprise to me that you take comfort in your lack of desire to learn, as learning would undoubtadly force you to change your way of thinking on many levels.”

Please keep in mind that I did previously politely ask you to refrain from those types of personal attacks, if you doubt my sincerity, I can not possibly see how we could engage in a rational discussion. If you really want to just forum troll with my son, I suppose we can arrange that instead of rationally discussing the issues if you truly would like that instead? Feel free to read my earlier posts, it doesn’t make sense for me to restate everything I’ve said previously every new post.

“This my friend would have been a sincere effort by Serbia to have offered 5 or 6 years ago, and the Western powers would have probably accepted it!”

Adem excellent work and excellent points. I think those suggestions you mention in item 8 are actually very clever, and possibly a plausible alternative to what Ahtisaari is proposing. I can not encourage enough that I would like to hear more alternative and fresh ideas from the Kosovar side in regards to possible solutions besides merely independence. I think just discussing the situation and learning to talk to one another is the most important thing, regardless of whether a solution is actually found. We are and always will be neighbors with common interests for our region, we need to forge alliances in the future regardless of the outcome of the status talks. You are also very correct that Serbia should have taken a more constructive approach to the situation and play by modern Western standards of diplomacy. Serbia is not a major world power who can dictate terms to others. This link was posted by Jovan I believe last week and has some interesting ideas similar to many of yours. Some of the site is nationalistic in nature, but some of these compromise ideas had not really occurred to me before. Check it out.

http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pages/kosovo_tommorow/sub_links/1/1.htm

“12) Rotational collective presidency/leadership allowing for all ethnic groups to be leaders from time to time”

and your idea

“Agreeing to 4 year terms for the PM position, and guaranteeing that every 5th election cycle an Albanian, as elected by the Kosova people, would be granted Prime Minister title of the entire country if one had not been elected by the general elections within that 5 cycle term?”

However, I support the Right to Self Determination for both Serbians and Albanians, we have the exact same issue with our populations scattered across various countries. We should support one another. Therefore I support partition as an option to solve the Kosovo crisis as it seems to be the most plausible workable solution to the issue at this time, but I’m more then willing to entertain other ideas. Knowledge is power, and there can be no greater aspiration then the exchange of ideas, especially with those you disagree most with. We must learn to see one another as individuals with differing ideas, thoughts, and desires. The era of ascribing entire populations with the same stereo-types and misconceptions must stop if ever we are to move into modern times.

Srebenica and the cluster bombing are Zagreb are both crimes against humanity and those responsible should see justice. I do not consider the desire to impose the same conditions on the country of my birth, the US, “taking the higher ground”. I was not saying that Serbia was being “nice” for not using cluster bombs, but simply the punishment for the crimes must be applied consistently if International Law is to have any sort of legitimacy. However I fully understand the reality of world politics and know that International Law is openly flaunted by those strong enough to do so. This however, does not relinquish me from an obligation to vocally oppose the gradual denigration of the Rule of Law. I fully agree Serbia has made countless grave mistakes with terrible negative consequences for everyone involved. All the more reason to voice my opinions.

“You continue to avoid effectively and factually rebutting my statements that a precedent for changes made to the borders of sovereign countries made by international powers in recent history exists in at least two cases!”

Maybe because I agree with you on substance, but not your argument, so I didn’t see the point in bringing in up, but since you asked...

In fact, you’re missing the best example supporting your hypothesis. First though, Germany, Korea, (as well as Taiwan) are and were really just viewed as temporary situations. No one who follows the relations between the Koreas doubts that some day in the future the North & South will eventually join again, similar to Reagan’s famous quote, “Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”. The German and Korean models are more closely examples of supervised autonomy gone awry temporarily and not a permanent independence precedent.

The country that is however completely on point is Croatia, timeline, geography, and situation all match. Use that. Despite the recommendations of the UN that Croatia was not ready for independence yet, because of its poor human rights conditions at the time, (similar to the abandonment of the “standards” part of the Kosovo mission) Croatia unilaterally declared independence under the sponsorship of their patron Germany, who was prompt in their support and recognition. Ironically, Helmut Kohl cut a deal with John Major that in exchange for German support in the adoption of the Euro, the UK in return would recognize Croatia. The UK to this day, still has yet to adopt the Euro. Clearly a major coup for German diplomacy in the EU.

A nearly identical situation exists in Kosovo, with the US as their sponsor, denying that is of course ludicrous. Of course the same tactics may be used by the Serbs of North Kosovo with Russia as their sponsor. This is a messy way to go about it (As we saw in Croatia), I suggest a rational discussion about partition occur now, while it can be done with the least bloodshed and violence (Not that I advocate violence as a solution or negotiation point in any way shape or form, I abhor it). This is why the Ahtisaari proposal is so dangerous. If it is to be independence, that should be clearly stated with rock solid guidelines, not the possible starting point of a potential conflict. I do not have much confidence in the way the International Community has handled things in the region in the past, clearly much bloodshed could have been avoided with a more cautious approach and some thought.

“In other words, the "contract" known as UN SC 1244 was signed by the FRY and mentioned the borders of FRY, an not either Republic explicitly in addition to the borders of the then-FRY, or SCG following FRY”

OK the link I provided was to the Constitution of “Serbia & Montenegro”, article 60 is very clear about succession to UN membership & 1244 and how it is to function in the event that Montenegro leaves the union on its own, this was agreed to by both Serbia and Montenegro and of course approved by the International Community who were very involved at the time in helping to negotiate and draft that document. Remember they wanted Montenegro to stay in Serbia at that time. Succession would have been different if Serbia or both Serbia & Montenegro had held referendums and that is also spelled out clearly there. You are right in the fact that the UN did not accept FRY as the successor state to Yugoslavia, but it did in fact accept first “Serbia & Montenegro” and then just Serbia as the legitimate successor state to FRY. That would seem to be a strong indication that UN resolutions would also apply with the same successor applications. I believe this is how it generally works there. Montenegro was forced to apply as a new nation, but Serbia was not. “Legally” I think I’m standing on fairly solid ground. Look for applicable examples (fully on point) of successor states where they didn’t inherit resolutions binding to their previous seat. Find those, and you have a very valid argument. In that case, I will Tip my Hat to you Sir. Keep in mind the precedent of The People’s Republic of China inheriting the UNSC seat when they were declared the successor to what had been held by the government in Taiwan, now regulated to merely Observer Status in the UN, a possible perpetual outcome for Kosovo if Ahtisaari’s proposal is not specific on actual independence. Clearly this could possibly lead to future violence as well and is a BS way for a people to live.

However, I agree, in reality 1244 will probably be ignored, but not on any valid legal basis. That is my only real issue. I just feel its another example of the disregard for international treaties and laws.

“but you would be a fool not to recognize that Israel sees the Kosova experiment as a viable option for the resolution of their conflict.”

The International Community supports conditions in Palestine similar to what Kosovo will probably get, however the Israeli government as I’ve said strongly opposes some of those conditions and both sides will be forced to find a compromise between the two positions, this much is clear to me. In my opinion the Israeli government will pay attention to the Kosovo situation mostly because they’ll want to learn from the mistakes of Serbia and not because they want to give the same concessions to the Palestinians as what Kosovars will get.

Israel has a right to exist and to defend themselves. After what happened to them in WWII it comes as no surprise to me that they would meet any possible threat to their existence as fiercely and strongly and with as much over whelming force as they can muster. However, its obvious that the conflict is now beginning to threaten world peace and stability. After 40 years, we pretty much need a settlement of the issue, even if it must be imposed.

Your arguments are good, you just need to tighten up a bit, find situations a little more on point, and double check some of your facts, then you’d be good to go dude!

This outcome is not a surprise. What is ironical though is that the resolution explicitly calls for the compliance with the international law. As if Serbia would be in compliance with it. Indeed, the UNSC will now try to impose a solution. In the end Russia will probably come around a drop Serbia like a hot potato.

It is so sad to recognize the fact that the new parliament of Serbia has not changed anything in substance from the Milosevic’s era. We all remember the time when Serbian parliament rejected anything proposed from democratic world in the past. We all remember the consequences followed. It reminds me also the era when so-called Serbs parliaments in Krajina and Bosnia decisively rejected projects offered to them and finally were forced to accept whatever came from western countries, but only those that were forced. How can this people (Serbs politicians) imagine putting under control 2 million people that sacrificed so much for their freedom and for their prosperous future?
Albanians since 1912, when first were occupied by Serbs, continuously fought for existence, they had the same situation. Every one who knows the Kosova’s history knows that.

Regardless of formal resolutions adopted by Serbian parliament, Kosova will be independent country. Only as independent state Kosova will be within the EU family one day.

The highest respect for LDP and Mr. Jovanovic. Sir, you are the real patriot of your nation. It confirms to me that big nations, like Serbian nation, have personalities like you. It is impossible that entire nation is poisoned of hatred and chauvinism. The future belongs to you, sir.

Cheers, Adi, Prizren

"serbia is not different today than under milosevic" is a silly statement.

legal mechanism please.

the same law that applies to the world must apply to serbia

there can not be one law for bosnia and a different law for kosovo.

in yesterdays ny times, thomas freidman wrote that for russia this is revenge. this is the beginning of payback to the usa for 15 years of sticking it in russia's face.

Adi,

Occupied by Serbs only in 1912????? I suggest you make an accurate record of historic monuments Kosovo and Metohija. You will find thousands of churches, monasteries, castles, hermitages and ruined medieval villages associated with the Serbs. How many Albanian (not Ottoman, there is a difference) monuments pre 19th century will you find? I would also suggest that any arguement based upon the notion that Albanians are the descendents of Illyrian pre Roman people should not be entered here. It is now generally considered (everywhere outside Albania) that there isn't sufficient evidence (based on linguistics and place names) to attribute the Albanians as the sole descendents of the various Illyrian tribes. Vlachs, Serbs and Macedonians could have as much Illyrian blood in their veins.

How ironic that you live in the one time capital of the medieval Serbian Empire.

excerpts from thomas friedman's op-ed in yesterdays ny times.

"Foreign policy experts are still trying to parse Vladimir Putin’s weekend blast against America, which he described as a brutish country that “has overstepped its national borders, in every area.”

They warned us at the time... but the Clinton folks told us: “Don’t worry, Russia is weak; Yeltsin will swallow hard and accept NATO expansion. There will be no cost.”

I believe that one reason Mr. Putin... was that we told Russia: Swallow your pride, it’s a new world. We get to have spheres of influence and you don’t — and ours will go right up to your front door.

But now that high oil and gas prices have made Russia powerful again — the gasman of Europe — Mr. Putin is shoving Russia’s resurgent pride right back in our face. In effect, he is saying to America: “Oh, you talkin’ to me? You thought you could tell me that the cold war was over and that NATO expansion was not directed at Russia — but we couldn’t be members anyway. Did you really think we were going to believe that? Well, now I’m talkin’ to you. Get out of my face.”

Mr. Putin was only slightly more diplomatic in his Munich remarks, where he said: “The process of NATO expansion has nothing to do with modernization of the alliance. We have the right to ask, ‘Against whom is this expansion directed?’ ” We all know the answer: it’s directed against Russia. O.K., fine, we were ready to enrage Russia to expand NATO, but what have we gotten out of it? The Czech Navy?

For those of us who opposed NATO expansion, the point was simple: there is no major geopolitical issue, especially one like Iran, that we can resolve without Russia’s help. So why not behave in a way that maximizes Russia’s willingness to work with us and strengthens its democrats, rather than expanding NATO to countries that can’t help us and are not threatened anymore by Russia, and whose democracies are better secured by joining the European Union?

Mr. Shelmerdine,

At the Conference of Ambassadors in London in 1912 presided over by Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, Serbia was given sovereignty over Kosovo which it has retained until 1999. As a person that knows history, you should know this.

I am not affectionated by history. I am future oriented person. But, I have reason to not believe on the history written neither by Albanians, nor from Serbians. I have red the book “Kosovo: a Short History” by Noel Malcolm. I think it is one of the most appreciated books over the Kosova’s History.

I know that in the past, our ancestors were Illyrians. When Illyrians decided to cross from polytheism into the monotheism, they accepted the christian religion, orthodoxism and catholicism as their religion. I am an Albanian of catholic religion. My uncle is Muslim. We are quite mixed. Religion for an Albanian is one of the ways to pray to the god. Nothing else.

As far as thousands of churches, monasteries, you mentioned, they do not belong only to Serbian people. they belong to Albanians too. Churches, monasteries are our history, too. We have protected them across the centuries.

Cheers from beautiful Prizren,
Adi

Blag,

It is not only me at the opinion that the resolution adopted yesterday by Serbian parliament resembles on Milosevic's era. Mr. Jovanovic, the LDP leader, is at the same opinion, too. Yesterday he stated that the resolution is the expression of the politics utilized extensively by Milosevic in the past. Moreover, he stated that behind the resolution stands actual incompetent Serbian government. I think he is right.

How comes that only actual Serbian government knows that the Ahtissari's proposal is against the UN chart and most of other representatives of democratic countries don’t?!!!

It is against the common sense!!!

Cheers,

protecting them how? by burning them down and claim others history to be yours?. like skederbag? who was half serb half greek?

Adi,
I've read the same book..

But at the end of the day, i got the feeling (as far as earlier history goes), that Noel tried to inflate Albanian claims while at the same time deflating Serbian claims in order to bring a balance..

One way or the other, his writings were based on a lot of what Pijotr Bogdani wrote (an Albanian), and yes....he was the intellect of the time.

Nonetheless, a great book to read. But not one that foreign policy should be geared towards...

Every Serb should read it.
Every Albanian for that matter.

Come on Pjetro!!! Whatever does not fit with your interests, you guys say is not objective or it supports Albanian cause, though the writer is not Albanian.

As I said, I am not I person that is hostage of the past, but there is something that we can relay on. Malcolm’s book is highly valued everywhere.

Cheers,

Adi,

You seem like a reasonable person.

I bring attention to the fact that the concept of Sovreignty is the foundational basis of the nation/ state and international politics and that this proposal seeks to suspend it. This is very, very notable. It is even more notable because there is no pre-defined and pre-agreed a priori road map showing us when we may suspend national sovreignty and how. Finally, it is distressing that independence proponents are considering to move it outside the auspices of the UN b/c it will only lead to a very predictable response which will give independence...but not a liveable independence.

At the same time, I am distressed that BG does not even have a plan to create for harmonious co-existence should independence not be achieved.

Finally, Kostunica, Tadic, Djindjic, Jovanovic, and many others in the parliament all went to a great degree of personal risk to topple Milosevic. Kostunica as you may recall was in fact the man who did so.

Adi,

I too have read Noel Malcolm's book, and I have to agree with Pijetro here. Yes, it’s a great book, highly recommended, and he goes into great detail on sources and documents and everything. I also suggest everyone read it.

However, although Noel cites many sources and does some fairly indepth research, his reasoning and conclusions are often wrong and even contridictory in my opinion. One trick he uses is to cite many different conflicting sources and then use inconsistent logic in determining which source is the "correct" one, and then uses the exact opposite logic to choose his next "correct" source. I believe he should just present the evidence and let the reader decide.

The other major issue I have with the book is that although he goes into great detail every single crime that Serbians committed, he has a tendency to minimalize or simply ignore crimes that occurred against Serbs.

For example, he does admit that towards the end of Ottoman rule that things got ugly (but doesn't go into solid specifics, no mention of the Human Skull Monument in Nis for example), he then launches into a deep conversation about how wonderful and open the Ottoman Empire was in the beginning (Something I do more or less agree with). However, by going into such detail about the benevolent rule of the early Ottomans, and then completely glossing over the crimes during the end of their rule he leaves a very different impression of the sufferings of the Serbian people under the late Ottoman period.

I also think he's deliberately confusing in his writings. I've had a college level reading rate since elementary school and I had to read it very carefully before I could see all the flaws in his reasoning and conclusions.

The lesson to learn here is that just because someone does a good job citing source material, does not mean that their conclusions and reasoning and how they interpert the data is correct. Unfortunately, Noel Malcolm is in fact engaging in propaganda, I understand he has to sell his books, and right now that sort of viewpoint is far more popular in the West then a more balanced approach.

Several of comments I have read on this website encourage the Serbian gov't to ignore the West and EU, and pursue isolation? Are you serious? So the rest of the european countries are stupid for wanting to join the EU, and Serbia is the only smart cookie of the bunch?

And please do not compare yourself to the UK, if someone has the temptetion to. You don't have the UK cojones to be in the same league with them! It is this hubris that has led your country astray.

The west realizes that you are Russia’s proxy, and they are punishing Serbia over and over for it. Why continue to be in such dire situations?

Let’s not forget about the Islamic countries in the Middle East which back Kosova, not particularly because of our faith (we are largely moderate Muslims), but because our status is very closely tied to the Palestinian situation.

Israel has hinted it's support for Kosova’s independence, a direct signal to the neighboring Muslim countries that Israel would also support a Palestinian state if the extreme anti-Semitic rhetoric and influence is calmed down.

When you're talking about a source of "energy", the Middle East is way more important to the world economy than is Russia's disputed natural gas lines.

The only reason Russia does not want the Kosova situation to resolve is because they know the solution would also aid in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which would then calm down the anti-US sentiment in the Middle East region and ultimately it would lead to disengagement of US’s forces in that area and allow the US to continue to prosper as it has.

Russia's lack of enthusiasm for Ahtisaari's plan has nothing to do with support for Serbia's sovereignity, and everything to do with Russia's interests. Same can be said of the US policy towards the Kosova. I am a pragmatist, so I acknowledge that, and I continue to be eternally grateful for the US's involvement.

Russia wants the US bogged down so that they can buy some time and re-build their strength. US defeated Russia once during the Cold War and it will do it again, by solving the Kosova, Palestine, and Iran-Iraq situations. You can’t blame a champion for being a champion.

What is Serbia basing the "illegal" imposition on the sovereignty of Serbia argument on? UNSC 1244 refers only to the FRY borders, and does not mention Serbia proper at all! There is no longer a FRY, so that argument and resolution is out of the door.

As far as the 1919 agreement where Serbia’s border were “defined”, the laws provide for international interference when the situation requires it so.

As an example, after WWII, Germany, a fully sovereign country was divided into two separate countries until the late '80s, when the two countries decided to re-join.

The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, the neighboring countries, and the rest of the world (largely in line with the recent history of Serbia). As such, Germany had lost all internationally recognized legal protections that it chose to overlook when it decided to attack others. Does this situation sound familiar? It should, because you are living in it right now! Sounds to me like the West has plenty of legal cover and a precedent.

Yes it would be easier for all parties concerned, including Serbia, if everyone agreed to the proposal and signed on the dotted line. But, make no mistake Kosova's independence can and will be realized even in the face of Serbian and Russian opposition if need be. Note: Take time to reflect on the 1999 bombing.

Serbia, you made your bed, now you have to lay in it. God Bless These United States of America

onasteries are our history, too. We have protected them across the centuries.

Cheers from beautiful Prizren,
Adi
(adi, 15 February 2007, 15:15)

What did you do when Five Orthodox Churches were burned in Prizren in March-2004.

What have you done as a member of the Prizren community to rebuild those Churches?

Not a surprise the Serbian government rejected the plan, but what strikes me curious is whether or not Belgrade has offered anything tangilble in the way of an alternate plan for integrating a restless Albanian society into the mainstream of Serbian society. If they just say "complete autonomy", how is that practically and realistically different from independence, and without any role from Belgrade, you might as well give Kosovo it's independence since the Albanians will be running their own affairs anyway.

If the government offers an alternative plan which details integration along institutional and economic cooperation, then yes, we have seen a marked difference in attitude and government since Milosevic. If however the rejection of the solution is nothing more than a symbolic show of collective pouting and middle-finger posturing to the West, then such a rejection is just that - symbolic. Tadic and Kostunica should engage with Ceku and Sejdiu, rather than isolating them which only strengthens their determination to separate.

Serbs love to state that their country is really the only multiethnic country in the Balkans. It's true. Vojvodina has Hungarian, Croat, Slovak, Romanian, Ruthenian, and Ukranian societies. Bulgars live in Serbia's east, and Albanians in Serbia's south. Why doesn't Belgrade capitalize on this multiethnicity and start recasting its state identity to reflect these communities? Such gestures and a willingness to work with non-Serb communities would not only improve relations between troubled communities, but also add some validity to Serbia's claims for Kosovo. A multiethnic approach to Kosovo would certainly help diffuse the back-and-forth rants between both sides vying for historical monopoly over the region.

"The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, the neighboring countries, and the rest of the world (largely in line with the recent history of Serbia)."

Blah, blah, blah...let's continue fabricate analogies to suit your sophistic arguement. Germany did attack sovereign neighbors. However, Yugoslavia (not Serbia) was within its right to resist the dissolution of its country by entering into a CIVIL war with seccessionist republics. But hey, don't let facts stop you from making nonsensical postulates.

Mr. Jashari:

You are wrong on two counts:

1. Serbia is the legal successor of FRY. In other words, Serbia is FRY. Period.

2. Germany was not divided as punishment for its actions. East Germany was split off from West Germany by the Soviet Union in its Cold War with the USA.

Finally, Nazi Germany liquidated 6M Jews, Roma, Slavs, Homosexulas, etc and was responsible for a World War that led to 95M additional deaths and unprecedented economic loss across the whole of Europe, Asia, and even the Americas.

You can't be serious, right?

the first step is to acknowledge he crimes commited in your name and there were many).
(blag, 15 February 2007, 17:56)

There is not one Serb who will not say that there were no crimes committed against the Albanian population in Kosovo , this was usual under Tito's totalitarian rule.

Brother and Unity was the call to keep a cap on the fervent nationalism especially portrayed by the Croatian republic in 1972 and then the Albanian community in 1974 and 1981 where purges occured of the Croatian and Albanian Communist leaderships.

Slobodan Milosevic was a pupil of Tito, Stombolic and the Communist Party . Stipe Mesic was also a fervent Communist who is now President of Croatia.

However, Milosevic brute force was a reaction to KLA insurgency, there can be no denial of that fact. Any leader will react to protect the sovereignty of its nation and people. The KLA intermingled with the Albanian civilians which made it that much more difficult to root them out.

Milosevic was the president of Serbia and eventually the rump Yugoslav federaton of Serbia and Montenegro. He never had control of the JNA when Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina pulled away from the Yugoslav federation. Ask former Croatian JNA General Kadijevic , Croatian President Ante Markovic and other's how they dealt with the dismemberment of Yugoslavia. So, the propoganda continues that Milosevic lost four wars is proposterous.

Finally, to allow a former KLA Terrorist Agim Ceku to lead a country is contradictory. The KLA was listed as a terrorist organization and under the US radar in Kosovo.

Dear Matthew,I am still waiting for your answer,are you coming to London for a drink,I am buying,you know what I mean.Cheers my friend.

Finally, to allow a former KLA Terrorist Agim Ceku to lead a country is contradictory. The KLA was listed as a terrorist organization and under the US radar in Kosovo.
(konstantin gregovic, 15 February 2007, 21:38)

That was then Constantin. Now they are surely listening to Agim Cheku a lot more than Kostunica and his cronies.

I have read all your comments so far. You are the only one who still defends Milosevic's actions.

And these types of attitudes coming along with yours from Serbs makes it almost imposible for Albanians to even think of the autonomy Kostunica offers.

What a disgrace of human thinking! 'May god put some light in your hearts.'

1. Serbia is not FRY, legal successor or not. If it were, it would be internationally known as such. Therefore, UNSC 1244 is not applicable, that is why a new resolution will be drafted in 2007.

2. We can argue til' the cows come home about why Germany, and Korea for that matter, had their borders changed.

The fact remains, the borders of two sovereign countries and their territorial integrity were changed post-WWII and post-UN charter draft. Thus precedents exist. Again proving that the serbian people and government have no basis for their fundamental arguement.

3."Finally, Nazi Germany liquidated 6M Jews, Roma, Slavs, Homosexulas, etc and was responsible for a World War that led to 95M additional deaths and unprecedented economic loss across the whole of Europe, Asia, and even the Americas."

Blag, I'm glad you hold such high standards, and expect such widespread devistation before the culprit is held to account. That a'baby. I'm sure that your position is very objective, and has nothing to do with the fact that you are Serbian. Not.

The fact is the INTENT and ACTIONS consistent with ethnic cleansing were employed by the Serbian government against Kosova's majority population, that led to international intereference and Bombs over Belgrade!

Serbia's criminal intentions and actions in Kosova give the UN, US, and EU plenty of legal power to render judgment against Serbia and create a new and independent country, as they did in Germany and Korea.

4. The bottom line is Kosova has the full support of the current world champion, Serbia is hoping for a has-been to protect their interests.

It is really unfortunate that Belgrade politicians have chosen "Our way or highway."
They are leaving no other options for world powers but to offer Belgrade's politicians the "Highway."

We Kosmet Serbs have been betrayed previously. However, this betrayel will certainly reward Kosmet Serbs with extiction. Mark my words gentlemen, the longer Belgrade pretends to care for Kosmet Serbs by denying, refusing, finger pointing, stalling for time, the more Serbs will pack their bags and leave. Not because Belgrade doesn't want to protect them, but because Belgrade won't be able to protect them for a long time. Any country where US has entered forcefully, it has never left, and it won't leave Kosmet. So, some of us Kosmet Serbs understand the reality better than those who have never stepped here.

Ahtisari's plan is not perfect, but it gives enough protection and autonomy to Serbian communities to live in peace.

Serbia is not wrong about their heritage claim and their right to protect serbs in Kosmet, It's wrong with the methods they try to achieve that.

Belgrade's philosophy is simple. As long as we are united with a common goal in the eyes of the west, it doesn't matter if we are wrong.

Some of you, who are accusing me of being on the Albanian side, I am not on the Albanian side or Belgrade's side, I am on the right side which is to stay here as long as there are comunities known as Serb Communities, as long as the last church stands, and we will rebuild them even if they fall.
SO, as long as I know that I am standing on the land owened by my great, grand father I will never leave. I will never leave as long as I hear thE last Serb say "Dobro jutro, komsije,"

But, I will disagree with all of you who believe that only Serbia can provide safety to Kosovo Serbs. I know Albanians can't. But EU and it's security forces will, but not if no one from Serbs is willing to trust EU and get a good bargain from this proposal.

Louie, I’m down, next time I’m in London, email me at lazslow@hotmail.com

“Several of comments I have read on this website encourage the Serbian gov't to ignore the West and EU, and pursue isolation? Are you serious? So the rest of the european countries are stupid for wanting to join the EU, and Serbia is the only smart cookie of the bunch? (adem jashari, 15 February 2007, 18:58)”

Adem,

I do not advocate ignoring the West, but for strengthening existing ties to Russia and China. The rest of Europe does not have the same geographical, historical and spiritual role as a bridge between East and West. Even those who speak our language are divided between the 3 major religious powers and interests in the region. The Serbs share an orthodox religion with the Russians and we were not members of the Soviet Block so have very little reason to dislike them. Clearly, in the UNSC Russia and China are assuredly the most sympathetic to our interests. Russia appears to be looking to pick a fight with the US over anything, or at least to humiliate them, at their greatest moment of weakness in the view of the world community. We should appreciate Putin’s offer of closer ties with our country and take him up on it. Serbia, in the middle of Europe, is naturally placed to have close ties to both Western and Eastern Europe. Tito is still associated with Nassir in the Middle East for their work together building the Non-Aligned Movement. There is no reason not to forge closer ties to the Non-Aligned movement and Hugo’s sweet oil deals. There really is no need to join NATO. Serbia doesn’t need anymore wars, I would even go so far as to endorse a major reduction in the military there. The EU is at a time in its history where its stability is at its lowest. Its bloated from absorbing so many nations under the Western European standard of living. Until those countries raise their economic level, there will be no resources for Serbia and no assurance that the EU will adapt policies that actually work. Its far better to let them make mistakes with the early countries and learn from them. We can wait, joining the EU does not mean jobs and freedom of movement or an equal say in things right now.

“Let’s not forget about the Islamic countries in the Middle East which back Kosova, not particularly because of our faith (we are largely moderate Muslims), but because our status is very closely tied to the Palestinian situation.

Israel has hinted it's support for Kosova’s independence, a direct signal to the neighboring Muslim countries that Israel would also support a Palestinian state if the extreme anti-Semitic rhetoric and influence is calmed down.”

That’s a really interesting theory you have going there. Lets see what the result would be if we applied the Kosovo formula to the Palestinian issue and whether it matches the known Israeli positions.

Basically, Palestinians would get East Jerusalem, they are the majority there, it was part of their country under the pre-1967 borders, something the UN and the world community demands (Not to mention containing Islam’s 3rd Holiest site. According to your theory, the Israeli’s should support this, however they don’t.

Under the Kosovo formula, all refugees would be allow a right of return. Also something the international community supports, yet Israel strongly opposes.

Can you imagine Israel support the kinds of autonomy for the Jewish settlers in Palestine that Serbs will have in Kosovo? No, they support a partition plan in Palestine.

Under the Kosovo formula, the Israeli Army would be bared from attacking Palestine or entering its terrorism, something I am very sure they would oppose.

As you can see, there really is no way Israel would accept any sort of Ahtsaari type compromise as a solution for the Palestinian issue. A partition plan for Kosovo would have far more bearing on the current situation in Palestine, and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that if Palestine ever gets true independence, that Israel will keep at least some of their territory.

Adem:

sorry, but you are wrong.

1. Serbia most definitely is the successor state to FRY. Serbia = FRY. see the EU site who recognized it: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/serbia/eu_serbia_and_montenegro_relations_en.htm

2. Germany was definitely not split apart due to its ww2 actions. Germany was split apart in the larger debate over who shall control europe... Moscow or Washington. See this: http://www.opb.org/education/coldwar/berlincrisis/events/index.html

3. Korea was not split apart, but went thru a civil war as a proxy between washington & moscow for control of the korean peninsula. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

in both cases the borders were changed by violence... either diplomatic or military. the UN had nothing to do with it.

finally, nazi germany DOES NOT equal milosevic serbia by any stretch of the imagination. i won't even begin to list the reasons b/c there are so many.

hey boris, i dont accuse you of "being on the albanian side"... i say that you have a poorly thought out strategy. by the way, i answered your earlier post here: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=39605

Mathew,

1. Serbia has forged close ties to Russia and China for years now, to no avail! How many times do you have to be burned before you stop playing with fire?

Be that as it may, it is not a foregone conclusion that Russia or China for that matter will veto anything! While, the US's intentions with respect to Kosova's independence are clear.

If Russia were indeed intending to pick a fight with the US they would come right out and threaten Veto. That would be the mark of a true power! Russia is stalling for time, China doesn't give a rat's you know what!

Another interesting theory is that Serbia has been publicly galvinizing about Russia's Veto power even before Russia has committed itself to such action. Sounds to me like Serbia is aware of the losses that are awaiting it, and wants to pass the blame off to the "traditional ally who had the opportunity to help Serbia and didn't".

2. Israel is willing to make many concesions, in order to secure it's peaceful existence in the Middle East. This is a well known fact! Recent dealings between Israel and Palestine are examples of such concessions (i.e. Gaza). Certainly there will be more to come.

Israel has made public statements endorsing Ahtisaari's plan, and the people of Kosova. This has been a clear signal to the rest of the Islamic states in the Middle East regions for Israel's intent with Palestine.

Matthew, for someone who is able to articulate their opinions very well, it would be surprising to me if you were to lack the intellect to understand that Policy is fluid and changes with time and circumstance. Nothing in the political arena is eternal!

For dozens of years now, Israel has, under the US protection, held the beliefs that you acurately stat. The US is slowly nudging them to cooperate fully. Israel will do so for the sake of the region's peace and stability.

The situation is strikingly similar with respect to Israel and Serbia! For years, Serbia had leverage on the Ballkan region due to the support it garnered from Russia. Now the support, in the real sense of substantial military and financial one, has vanished. Yet, Israel is in full support of the Kosova cause, and not Serbia. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3. Your rants about Tito and forging relationships with the non-allied Middle Eastern countries, and Hugo are wishfull thinking.

Serbia does not and never has had such clout in the international political stage to forge strategic relationships on its own.

One, among many other reasons, is because Tito represented a larger terriory in Yugoslavia, with many more resources and other strategic intrests, that Serbia proper lacks significantly.

Secondly, who in the current Serbian government reminds you of Tito? Tito was the exception, not the rule.

Try to understand that Yugoslavia, in it's glory days, was only as strong as the superpowers of the day wanted it to be, and Tito was their man. It had nothing to do with Serbia's political abilities.

4. Kosova's separation into the north and south is not an option, at least not in the near future, because the superpowers do not want Kosova separated.

Full independence of Kosova is inevitable, it is only a matter of what will the Russians get in return, and if Serbia is smart it should try to pursue some fringe benefits for it's "signature".

Adem:

Sorry to disagree with you yet again. Yes, Russia is not supporting Serbia b/c it's being friendly (Russia will do what's good for Russia). Russia is supporting Serbia because it is flexing its muscles. It is re-establishing itself on the world stage. It is picking a fight with a bleeding Washington after being humiliated by Washington - an out-of-control superpower. Some very serious American newspapers have already drawn attention to the heightened Cold War era rhetoric. Serbia was smart enough to read the signs and is piggybacking the K issue on the Russian strategy (and Russia is obliging). We both are caught in a super-power showdown. Do not be naïve. But make no mistake... the era of hyper-super power has officially ended. It is OVER and washington will CONFORM to it!

Blag,
You continue to avoid addressing the issues at hand.
1. EU recognized Serbia as the successor of FRY, but I am not aware of a UN act that does the same. Remember this is a UN resolution! The UNSC 1244 refers to FRY only and not to the Republic of Serbia.

2. Arguing the reasons why Korea and Germany were separated into two separate countries is best suited for another forum. But your attempts to distract the focus from the points made is duly noted.

Again, the borders and territorial integrity of two countries was changed. Both occured in recent history, and the UN recongizes(ed) them as valid international entities (Federal Republic of Germany&German Democratic Republic, and South Korea&North Korea). This is the fundamental arguement at hand! Is there a precedent where the borders of a formerly sovereing country were changed and where the UN de-facto recognized these changes as internationally valid? Yes there are at least two. Please clearly explain why the examples given do not fit the bill?

By your arguement, the US does not need a UN resolution at all! There was a civil war between Serbs and Albanians in 1999. The US supports Kosova, Russia supports Serbia. Russia can set up camp in Serbia, the US already has a camp in Kosova. Build a wall along the current borders and we have two separate countries without UN interfernece.

Yet the UN will have two precedents to recognize the newly formed Republic of Kosova. Russia knows this, that's why they won't Veto, they will abstain. China doesn't care! If anything, they want Russia to be humiliated by the US again, so that China can continue to establish it's position as the sole superpower in the Eastern Hemisphere.

4. Lastly, Blag, you may or may not be aware of the theory of relativity. One can apply that logic here when discussing whether Serbia's acts were Nazi-like or not. You have your opinions, and we have ours.

The tie breakers is in the fact that your country faces numerous international lawsuits, one verdict pending in less than one week (see "Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
(Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro)" on the international court of justice's website.

I will continue to humiliate you in this public forum, and prove you wrong if you do not put forth a better effort when structuring your arguements. Come on man, I know you can give me a better run for my money.

PS: Have you ever looked up the name Adem Jashari in Wikipedia? G'Head, give it a whirl!

"Russia is supporting Serbia because it is flexing its muscles. It is re-establishing itself on the world stage. It is picking a fight with a bleeding Washington after being humiliated by Washington - an out-of-control superpower. "

In the world of power and "muscle-flexing", you say what you mean and mean what you say! You do not tip-toe around the issue. If Russia had significant power they would have dealt the Veto blow already!

Again, you are wishing upon a shooting-star. Kosova on the other hand is being actively protected and energized by the US greenback baby, the mighty dollar.

Blag you are Russia's proxy, which is in a very peculiar position since China seeks to permanently grab hold of it's rightful title as the sole Superpower of the East. Unfortunately for you, your big brother is done. Mine is still strong.

When was the last time the Russia or China had the audacity to attack a US ally? US on the other hand has been able to weild it's power without any hesitation.

We are all lucky that the US is a righteous nation, with solidarity and mercy, who seeks to pacify the world and promote prosperity. If Russia or China had the power that the US currently holds, we would all be in a world of trouble. God Bless These United States of America!

So the rest of the european countries are stupid ......

As an example, after WWII, Germany, a fully sovereign country was divided into two separate countries until the late '80s, when the two countries decided to re-join.

The reasoning of course was that Germany engaged in illegal and aggressive acts against it's citizens, (adem jashari, 15 February 2007, 18:58)

Your interpetation of the events leading to the split of East and West Germany are completely wrong and erroneous.

The allies led by the US invaded Germany from the west while Russia invaded Germany from the East in 1945. So, Berlin was split between Russia, France,English and US sectors.

The Cold war between the US and Russia resulted in Germany being split between East and West. The split of Germany had absolutely nothing to do with the horrible and aggressive acts that Nazi Germany committed in Europe.


Your analogy and historical facts are against all historical accounts and texts. Germany was split because of the Russian sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.

Konstantine,
Another spin master! Please do not try to confuse the core argument. The question is: Does a precedent exist for the international imposition and changing of borders and territorial integrity of a sovereign country, without the said country’s explicit permission to do so?

Germany's aggressions during WWII lead to its invasion! Surely you are not arguing with me on that point? My statement simply says that the invasion of Germany was invited by her own actions. That invasion, eventually, lead to the division of Germany by the superpowers of the time. It is hard to think that Germany would have been divided if the foreign powers did not have reason to invade in the first place! Albeit in a smaller scale, the similarities between the current situation in Serbia and post-Nazi Germany are, otherwise, difficult to ignore.

The invasion of Kosova was invited by the Serbian actions there. KLA, NATO, EU, and the US found the Serbian actions to be egregious enough to label them as Genocide and engage their military forces against yours. Ultimately leading to the US led invasion of Kosova, and the initiation of the "status talks" i.e. independence of Kosova and changing of borders. You can argue all you want about whether this comparison to Nazi Germany is fair. The decision has been rendered, and foreign forces have been in “your” territory for almost a decade now.

Again, debating about the nuances of why Germany and Korea were divided of course are more complicated issues and better suited for another forum. Nevertheless, it does not change the fact that the borders and territorial integrity of two sovereign countries were, in 1 out of 2 cases, permanently altered.

This is the fundamental argument. Precedents for changing the borders of a sovereign country exist, as proven by the Germany and Korean models. You sir, and your government erroneously argue to the contrary.

"Though the goal of the Western powers was to revive Germany, both economically and socially through a united effort, the Soviet Union feared this alliance - partly because the merged zones would have greater power than the Soviet zone, and partly because of continued feelings of hostility and resentment towards Germany."

Blag, you probably recognize this as a direct quote from the link that you posted in your comment regarding Germany's division and WWII.

This quote proves two things to me:
1. Russia has a history of non-compliance, non-constructive, and stalling international policy. Nothing positive has ever come out of Russia's meddling in foreign affairs.

2. Again, read the latter part of the quote more carefully. It acknowledges that part of the reason for the division of Germany was Russia's "hostility and resentment" towards Germany. This clearly implies that Germany's actions during WWII played a significant role in the foreign imposition on Germany's territorial sovereignity.

"The division of Korea into North Korea and South Korea stems from the 1945 Allied victory in World War II, ending Japan's 35-year occupation of Korea. In a proposal opposed by nearly all Koreans, the United States and the Soviet Union agreed to temporarily occupy the country as a trusteeship with the zone of control demarcated along the 38th Parallel. The purpose of this trusteeship was to establish a Korean provisional government which would become "free and independent in due course."[1] Though elections were scheduled, the two superpowers backed different leaders and two states were effectively established, each of which claimed sovereignty over the whole Korean peninsula"

Blag, this is a quote from the link that you posted on your comment regarding my arguement of North and South Korea as precedents.

This proves my premise that international (i.e. superpower) interference lead to the creation of two new sovereign states from one Korea without the people's consent. Yet another legal precedent, whichever way you want to slice this cake. Need I say more?

Adem,
I think you misunderstand what I suggest as a possible policy to follow. I never said I thought Russia would actually use a veto, I’m not convinced either. They are most certainly in a better position to throw their weight around then back in the 90’s. While the US is most certainly at their lowest in international public opinion right now.

“Policy is fluid and changes with time and circumstance. Nothing in the political arena is eternal!”

I think your above statement actually supports my position that Putin’s Russia is not the same Russia as under Yelstin.

“Kosova's separation into the north and south is not an option, at least not in the near future, because the superpowers do not want Kosova separated”

Again, your statement regarding fluidity in politics ensures this is not set in stone. The history of US opinion towards the KLA is a prime example. First it was a terrorist group, then freedom fighters, then terrorists again when they went into Macedonia (Assuming that was in fact ex-KLA helping organize that rebellion). This change happened over a rapid period of time as well.

I do think that International public opinion could change in regards to partition if Albanians slip up and engage in significant violence. I think the vast majority of Kosovars are smarter then that, but every side has its extremists and it only takes a small number of people to start trouble.

“If Russia were indeed intending to pick a fight with the US they would come right out and threaten Veto. That would be the mark of a true power!”

Now back to Russia, and Serbia’s relation to it. Russia’s recent statements are enough to ensure that Serbia’s position will at least get a somewhat fair assessment by the UNSC. Whether they’ll do more then that, or if it will have an effect on those countries yet undecided, I make no predictions. Russia appears to be looking for a fight with the US over whatever they can. Putin is fairly smart and he’s obviously gauging public reaction, and its still an unknown how and over what he will choose to express Russian strength. Bumping off ex-KGB in the middle of a Western Country with crazy radioactive poison is pretty ballsy, so I think anything is possible. It has to be something relatively safe that won’t jeopardize the security of the entire planet. To me, I don’t think they’ll fight that much over Iran or North Korea, those have too much potential for real trouble, and neither country really wants that. Kosovo certainly could be a good fit in a lot of ways. The US is awfully quiet on the Kosovo issue, and in the press here (I’m in the US) the recent coverage regarding Russia’s hostile stance does not mention Kosovo, only the other issues. The US could then claim victory against Russia on some issue in the Middle East, like Iran or whatever, something that is actually on the minds of the American people and plays into his whole crusade against “Islamic fascism”. Kosovo was Clinton’s war, and the republicans have always been rather negative about the whole thing, I could see them sweeping it under the rug for something else they could claim as a bigger victory. Humanitarian crisis mean nothing to the US if its not in their interest. For the Russian side, exerting their power in the face of EU is likely the type of thing Putin would do and he’s certainly talking more about Kosovo in public then President Bush. Showing the EU that they aren’t the only influence in Europe would be Russia’s goal, not necessarily that they care that much for the Serbian people (Bush probably likes the idea of Putin throwing his weight around with the “snotty” French and Germans for not supporting us in our war on terror). I’m not saying that will be what happens, but given the existing geo-political situation right now, it’s a plausible scenario. Partition could then allow the EU members to pat themselves on the back and say how good they are for granting the Kosovars independence. Again, I’m not saying that will happen, but if it did, I think it would go something like that. As I’ve said, any violence by the Albanian side at this point in time, might convince those EU members on the fence that maybe partition is the best solution after all. I’m pretty sure that partition could find support among the Kosovar population if it were fair and gave them immediate recognition and independence. While I am sure the Kosovar people would be willing to go through a messy process of independence through unilateral recognition by the US, I also think that many might support an immediate and safe end to the current mess. However, yeah, if you ask me if Kosovo independence is likely or not, yeah in some form I think it will be. I do think a real attempt at compromise and negotiation should take place, not to yield results, but to work on just talking with one another. No matter what, we will be living next to one another. I am sorry for the suffering of the Kosovar people.

As far as economic ties to Russia, we should definitely improve them. Their oil is as good as gold. Our two people have a great affinity for one another, there really is no reason not to build stronger ties with Russia. A strong Russia is good for the world. The US needs a counter balance to their power or they will just run amuck all over the place like they’ve been doing. The US is not civilized at this time, despite your assertions, I think the only fairly civilized countries are mostly in Western Europe right now.

Also by building stronger ties to Russia, the European community will in fact pay more attention to us. It would only help us join the EU, if and when we decide they have worked out their issues. The EU also will want balance between east and west, not all EU countries back the US as strongly as the UK. Russia is right there, and they are a part of Europe. Trade between the two will happen and is happening. Serbia is the natural go-between for such a relationship. Serbia must adopt Western standards of service, expand their economy, and continue on political reform and democracy. We must do these things in order to compete. However, we must not turn a blind eye to the east and only see the EU as our entire future. It’s a global marketplace in this day and age.

Clearly Serbia should certainly try to associate themselves with Tito’s foreign policies. It would be a smart PR move. Serbs in general reject many of his domestic policies, but even his detractors admit to his foreign policy genius. There is absolutely no reason why not to attempt to pursue such a policy. Sadly, Serbia currently does not have a person of political caliber as Tito, but then again, there’s always cloning! Lol…

As far as Israel goes, are you really making the argument that they will in fact agree to go back to the pre-1967 borders? That they will allow all the refugee’s to return? Keep in mind if all the refugee’s returned to Israel, they would outnumber Jews living there, somehow I doubt they support that position, now or ever. No matter what happens, they will most likely get away with ethnically cleansing large parts of Israel proper and most likely steal additional territory from the Palestinians. I try follow that stuff, and it seems to me they’re building this nice big fence that cuts right through parts of Palestinian territory. I’m sure you’ve heard of it. Yeah, sure the US is gently nudging them in the right direction and even a little bit more strongly then they have during the last 30 years! Israel has made the wonderful concession that Palestinians actually might deserve a State of their own, instead of some stateless population without even the right to vote. Strange though, the US seems to love bombing countries that disregard UN resolutions, yet we gently nudge them when they misbehave. I personally find it all rather odd that we still sell them cluster bombs to use on civilians like they did in Lebanon. Do you think it would have been appropriate for Serbia to use cluster bombs on cities and civilian areas to root out the KLA like Israel did looking for Hezbollah? Keep in mind officially according to the US state department policy the KLA was originally a terrorist organization, so should Serbia have used cluster bombs at that time when the US said they were terrorists? No, of course not. But yeah, you’re absolutely right, the US is taking a really tough stand on Israel now, I’m sure next time they use cluster bombs on civilians we will in fact stop selling them to them, as was stipulated in the original sales agreement. If there is any connection between Palestine and Kosovo its only so that Israel can score some cheap points with the Muslim countries. While their motivations are obviously multi-faceted, I personally think they are supporting it more because they support US policy and the PR agency hired by Croatia was successfully able to link public opinion of Serbian behavior to that of Nazi crimes. That PR firm was particularly proud of winning over the Jewish lobby in this.

I do however see a lot of similar parallels between the issues involved in Palestine and Kosovo. On that we can agree. However, I simply can not believe Israel would agree to the same sorts of conditions that the Serbs are being asked to agree to. To try to say that Israel would support Kosovo because they want to impose a similar solution for their problem with the Palestinians is nonsense and that is what you are implying in your statement.

Of course all of this is a vast over simplification of the issues and the players and what’s going on. The Balkans have always been an extremely complicated place. Lets all try to remain calm and have patience and understanding for whatever the outcome is.

“PS: Have you ever looked up the name Adem Jashari in Wikipedia? G'Head, give it a whirl!
(Adem Jashari, 16 February 2007, 18:23)”

Can we infer that you are a member of said Jashari clan and that perhaps you are also the author of that article on Wiki? I’m also going to guess you are somewhere in your twenties, possibly mid-twenties or maybe younger. Just curious, but how close am I to being correct?

Clearly you are rather bright and some of your arguments are interesting, however, you won’t get a rile outta me. I’m well aware that getting an emotional reaction out of a poster is an excellent way of distracting them from staying on point with their message. I see you trying to use that tactic. Your bright enough that your arguments and reasoning are far stronger then your ability to get a reaction out of people. I’m an old school gamer, so I got tired of that kind of interaction a while ago. However, if you wanna debate one of my teenage sons that way, I’ll drag em over.

RE: Split of Germany-1945

Again, let me reiterate to you that under all the conferences including Yalta , Germany was not to be split between the allies and the Soviet Union. Stalin invaded East Germany and thus began the cold war.

Germany's territorial integrity was not to be compromised, that was the mistake made after WWI in the Treaty of Versailles which led to WWII and Hitler rising to power.

If for arguments sake there is a comparison, how is Kosovo's protecorate status comparitive to Germany's copitulation to the allies and the Soviet Union in 1945 comparable? Need I remind you that Serbia did not copitulate to Nato illegal 78 day bombing. Did NATO invade Serbia? That option was on the table, but did not have EU support.

UNSC 1244 was signed in good faith with provisions guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Serbia. Germany armistence was subject to no negotiation and only accepted on all terms demanded by the allies and not subject to negotiation.

.

Konstantine,
1. Russia lost it's "counter-balance" position to the US's power with the fall of the Berlin Wall. China is quickly establishing its rightful position as the sole superpower of the East!

2. Russia is ruffling its feathers publicly, and the lack of press in the US regarding the Kosova issue is because they are not giving Russia the podium it is seeking to be non-constructive with regards to public policy! What concrete solution has Russia proposed for the Kosova situation? They were kicked out of Kosova by the NATO forces, and since then they've lost any possible interests there! This is just a political stunt in their part. As a beggar in a market, they are trying to hustle a few "gimmes" from the US! They may get something, but the Kosova’s issue is going to be resolved by in large according to US plans.

3. You are overestimating Russia's economic stability and military fortitude. In the global economy, they rank almost at the bottom of the industrialized nations in economic strength. They are even worse in debt than the US, with no significant and comparable GDP. They are a hostage of the very same system that they want to begin to have a say in. But, it won't happen any time soon.

4. The US is going through a defining period in its history no question about it. My faith in the US's success lies firmly on 3 grounds:

A) The governing system in place is unmatched by any other nation in this world. Even when you have a questionable leader like Bush, the country is not necessarily doomed because of the balance of power. No one man or branch can bring this country down. You would have to agree that the US model is ingenious, and difficult to make any more perfect than it is. I’ve lived in the US (and not just in NY, but form the NE, to the SW, and to the Midwest) over half of my life as well. So I am in tune with what is going on.

B) The capitalistic economy ensures that emotions are kept aside, and that the interest of and the well-being of the country is pursued. Along with point one, this adds another security layer that ensures the longevity of this country.

C) The will of the US people. This has to be a nation with the best spirit I have ever encountered in my travels. You can knock them down (very rarely, but it happens on occasion), but you cannot keep them down. They will come back stronger every time. Their ability and resolution to think outside the box and always find a better way to do things seems to be ingrained in their DNA.

Nothing lasts forever, but for the foreseeable future, the US is the hyper-power of the Galaxy.

5. Policy is fluid, and things in the international politics are certainly not eternal. However, you are a-priori assuming that Russia has made a return to the global stage as the superpower it once was, now the Putin is in charge! This guy is a dictator, who kills those who threaten him politically. Wow, you are right; Serbia and Russia have quite a bit in common. That is not the mark of a smart and sophisticated political leader, but rather a brutal and wimpy one! China is and will be the counter-balance to the US not Russia! Have you heard of any extremely negative comments from them? Again, no actual commitment to a veto from Russia either.

6. Israel may or may not make all the concessions we argue about, but they certainly are going to make more than they want to! Allowing refugees to return and outnumbering Jewish people has no barring on anything. Jews are already outnumbered by Arabs in that part of the world. Kosova's situation, like it or not, is being used as the possible framework for the Palestine solution (with some adjustments of course).

Israel used cluster bombs against its enemies; the US did the same against the FRY army! Sh+% happens brother! But don't assume a holier-than-thou position because Serbia did not have cluster bombs in it's arsenal to use against Albanians! I’m certain they would have without hesitation. Does Serbreinca ring a bell? Sure, no cluster bombs were used, but I’d swallow a cluster bomb and die that way sooner than I would be treated like an animal like those poor souls in Serbrenica were. Have you seen pictures of infants in Prekaz with half of their face shot off by the Serbian big-caliber weapons?

The US gave every opportunity to Serbia do amend its ways, but after Serbia's acts against Slovenia, Croatia, BiH and Srebrenica, they had enough when you started it in Kosova! You are wrong to assert that it was Clinton's war. But, even if it was, with the current Democratic congress in place, I would hypothesize that Serbia's case against independence is in deep dookie. The majority of all congressmen, GOP and Dems, are united in their stand for stability in the Balkans, and Independent Kosova as the only way to achieve that goal.

7. Applying the Germany model is of course in order by your argument. If you consider Kosova as part of Serbian territory, as I’m sure you do, then yes you have foreign armies in your territory, and they can apply the same reason for separating Kosova from Serbia, as Russia did to Germany. The borders of a sovereign country were changed in Germany's case, thus a precedent exists. That is my argument. Let's stick to it! I don't want to discuss the nuances of why it happened, the point is that it did happen. Whether Germany's division should or shouldn't have happened as you state is not the question. The point is that it did, and the two resulting new countries were recognized by all international institutions as legitimate states.

8. Assuming that Kosova is not in the US's strategic interest, is another a-priori mistake you make. While just last night, on NPR, they said that Italy is contemplating asking the US to remove its military forces from their country! Where do you think they would be stationed afterward? I'll give you a hint, it's the second largest US military base in EU, and it's located about 30miles west of Prishtina. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding...You are correct Mr. Konstantine, Camp Bond Steel is the right answer.

Don't underestimate the forethought of US policy: a moderately Muslim people, with aspirations of freedom, who will just as soon die for the US's cause as they would for theirs, and the kicker- US will help this little country gain it's independence and military strength in face of the aggressor (who happens to be Christian and aligned with the evil-Russian clan).

9. I am neither a descendant of, nor a particular follower of the KLA positions and tactics. But I admire their military and political astuteness, for it certainly aided Kosova in at least achieving the US’s full and transparent involvement in the Kosova issue.

My post was simply to attract your attention to the fact that nowhere on that link was the noun "terrorist" used! Comparing KLA to a terrorist network, like you do with Hezbollah, is unfair and illogical! KLA did not attack civilian targets, or any targets outside of Kosova for that matter!! Its mantra was to strictly engage against Serbian military, police, and para-military forces only-this was why they were removed from US's terrorist list!

Please read the definition of "terrorist" first before making such assertions and miss-characterizations. Do you think that the US would allow Agim Ceku to become prime minister of Kosova if he truly was considered a terrorist? They removed Ramush Haradinaj immediately when charges of human rights violations against him were formally declared.

Of course isolated cases of human-rights abuses undoubtedly occurred on the KLA's side, but that was not the formal policy of KLA. This was because they were trained and directed by US special-forces and intelligence units, otherwise they may have taken to such violence. As a result, initially they were labeled a terrorist group, until the US was assured that KLA is willing and capable to play within the US's rules. On the other hand, Serbia's official policy was to employ systematic ethnic cleansing tactics against all people which it perceived enemies of the state.

6. I am very confident in my ability to construct logical and thought-out arguments, but thank you for the compliment anyway. Assuming that I listed Mr. Jashari's name to get an emotional response from you is again erroneous on your part. I am bringing to the forefront something the Serbian nation is not willing to acknowledge. The fact is, if Adem Jashari was alive today, your gov't would have had to negotiate with him, like it or not, just like you have to negotiate with Agim Ceku now.

My point was to stimulate your countrymen to look a little deeper into the K Albanians movement and their lives in the last century, and understand where we are coming from! Placing blanket labels on everything as you are prone to do, does not resolve your problems.

As the neighbors that you state we are, Serbia has made no effort to understand and legitimize Albanians claims of the right to live and exist in Kosova in peace. On the contrary, you continue to argue that we don't even have the right to be there and that we somehow miraculously dropped in from the sky and invaded Kosova! It's illogical and irresponsible in Serbian people’s part.

Albanians know all about your history, because we were forced to learn yours while our history was intentionally completely miss-categorized and prohibited from being taught even in our schools, I don’t even want to think about what was taught in Serbian schools! I can name dozens of your historic figures: Car Lazar, Vuk Karadic, Stefan Nemanja, Car Dusan, etc, etc. I can read and write (Latin and Cyrillic), and speak Serbian. I know your holidays, religious and otherwise. Yet, I never lived in Serbia proper. I maybe had a handful of Serbian “friends.” Believe me when I say this, I am the rule and not the exception.

What do you know about us, our history, our language, customs, and culture? Knowledge is power, ignorance is bliss! Your propensity to dismiss and disregard everything Albanian is the prime reason in my opinion that your state finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If you truly were a civilized, democratic, and highly educated nation, you would have made every effort for the two groups to integrate, at least in Kosova.

7. You are underestimating Albanian's will and political intelligence to keep Mitrovica. Trading it at this point would be stupid. Kosova's main economic growth and foreign investments will come from the mining in Trepqa. Serbian's there (with Serbia’s influence of course) can have governance of the region, but all of Kosova will share in the revenues of the mines. Believe that.

That's why I said the division of Kosova won't happen in the short term! The west realizes that until the entire economy begins to hum along, Kosova will need all its resources to establish itself in the economic market. Maybe 30-50 years down the road, some form of independence would be granted to the northern region in exchange for the Preseva valley, but in the meantime, we are all going to share in that pot-of-gold known as Trepqa.

You are right about my age, but wrong on all other counts. One last note, I would be happy to engage you and your son together in a lively debate. I believe I have enough bite in my bark to give you both a good run.

i must admit that adem makes some very strong points and he has clearly proved me wrong on one of these points.(although adem... i really don't think you need to "humiliate me"... you can just say "hey man, you are wrong and you dont know what you are talking about"). and in this case you would be absolutely correct!

i went to the wikipedia site and looked up member nations of the UN. and adem is correct. serbia is NOT the successor state of FRY (i long thought that it was)... and this of course creates a very big hole in the "scenario" i crafted.

as for the second thing (korea/ germany).... i read that too... and went to some other sites. i must say i am not 100% convinced.... but i will say i am more convinced than before. there clearly was a feeling of resentment at germany's actions and it played a big role in their loss of sovereignity. however, what is unclear to me is whether the UN was even recognized by the majority of the world when germany was split up in ww2?

as for korea... i really don't know too much about their situation.

finally, yes i do know who adem jashari was. he and his entire family were basically executed by milosevic's army about 10 yers ago. i think it was over 50 people in one house. it was a great crime by the serbs -- one of many they committed against the people of kosovo.

Whoever posted as Blag is just being childish (our wiki fan Adem perhaps?), its funny, but very obvious.

Adem your critical thinking is excellent and you have a great gut instinct to shoot from the hip. Your understanding of the complexities is far greater then when I was your age, but in your haste to make so many comments you neglected to check a few points in regards to my statements.

“Serbia did not have cluster bombs in it's arsenal to use against Albanians! I’m certain they would have without hesitation.”

The truth is Serbian forces did in fact have cluster bombs, and in fact actually used them on Zagreb, something Milan Martic was charged with War Crimes for. I agree this is a crime, and your statement regarding the US using them on FRY forces supports my assertion that it’s different conditions for different people. Hypocritical if you will. In addition, when the US agreed to sell said cluster bombs to Israel, the Israeli’s signed an agreement not to use them in civilian areas, which they violated when they bombed Lebanon. The US protested but in the end, yet again, only “gently nudged” them to stop doing mean stuff to people.

I suppose if you are saying that Israel will pretend it’s giving the Palestinians the same conditions they support as a solution to Kosovo, I could probably agree. They will most certainly spin it that way. However, I don’t think they will play that card very strongly, the have other cheap PR points that may be more effective, and they don’t want anyone looking too closely at the “fine points” between the two sets of different concessions.

Also,

“Allowing refugees to return and outnumbering Jewish people has no barring on anything. Jews are already outnumbered by Arabs in that part of the world.”

One of the biggest points of contention in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as you should know, is what to do with the millions of Palestinian refugees scattered across the Arab lands who were ethnically cleansed from Israel proper (not Gaza or West Bank). Palestinians who live in Israel proper, not Gaza etc., have full voting rights and Israeli citizenship. If these refugees were to return, they would outnumber Jews, and thus control the Israeli government. Its obvious the Israeli’s have to oppose this, but on the other hand you have literally millions of incredibly poor and long suffering refugees stuck in camps all around the Middle East. The official UN position on this is they do in fact have the right to return. The Palestinians in the end will be forced to accept ethnic cleansing and the theft of at least some of their land against the stated position of the international community.

I’m guessing you’re already fairly knowledgeable about Balkan history and politics and now you are moving into getting to learn about Middle Eastern Politics more in depth. The two do have a long history with one another, and you can not fully understand one, without having studied the history and geopolitical structure of the other. In addition I have studied as much Albanian history as possible, but its often hard to find materials in English. Feel free to make suggestions. Of course I read Noel Malcolms book. I’m particularly interested in clan structure, blood feuds and that sorta thing. Old School stuff, origins, histories etc.

Oh, btw “Blag” (*cough cough* Adem), I did check out what wiki had to say (like it’s a legit cite to source anyway, lol). According to wiki FRY did not succeed Yugoslavia in the UN, but Serbia did succeed FRY. FRY is who is mentioned in Resolution 1244, as I’m sure you know. Here’s the actual quote.

• The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was admitted on 1 November 2000, replacing, instead of succeeding, the seat of Yugoslavia held by the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (officially the SFRY remained a UN member until that day). The FRY changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro on 4 February 2003. After the declaration of independence by Montenegro on 3 June 2006, the membership of Serbia and Montenegro in the UN, including all organs and organizations of the UN system, has been continued by Serbia on the basis of Article 60 of the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro.
While its an interesting argument, clearly Article 60 clearly states the reality. Here’s the link to the actual document. Can we please put the argument over 1244 to rest now? It mentions 1244 specifically.

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Facts/const_scg.pdf

Matthew,
"Oh, btw “Blag” (*cough cough* Adem), " I know you were suggesting to bringing in your son to our debate, I'm glad he got a word in or a phrase I should say.

You continue to underestimate me, thank you for making it easier for me to continuously prove you wrong.

1. I have no need or intentions to mis-direct anyone by posting my comments under the screen name of another person who regularly participates in this forum. That is dishonest and unethical. My arguements and statements are based on a sound foundations, so I don't need to ride anyone's coat-tail for an ego fix. In short, I did not post "Blag's" response.

Now on to dismanteling your other points:

2. Just because Serbia had cluster-bombs in its arsenal during the Croatian/Serbian war, doesn't meen you had any when you attacked Kosova! Remember, your country was cowardly using the Yugoslavian army which was way better armed and prepared than the Serbian army of the latter 90s. Cluster bombs were provided by the US, after the embargo, where would have the serbian army gotten them?

Why such a propensity in your part to make incorrect a-priori conclusions?

Furthermore, even if you could prove beyond reasonable doubt that Serbia did have the cluster bombs but chose not to use them in Kosova, but used them in Croatia, your attempt of taking the higher ground compared to the US or Israel is null-and-void.

Look at the systemic ethnic cleansing that was put in place by the Serbian gov't, don't avoid the issue at hand. I already refered you to the ICJ website which clearly shows the case of Genocide your country is standing trial for. Again, I'll take a cluster bomb over going through Srebrenica anyday.

3. Israel has proclaimed it's support for Ahtisaari's plan. Say what you will about their intentions with the Palestinians, they ARE READY to make real deals with the Palestinians (ie. the West Bank and Gaza, prisoner releases, etc, etc).

No one is suggesting that millions of refugees will return to East Jerusalem tomorrow! In time, compromises will be made, but they have to start somewhere. Israel is giving the Muslim countries a chance to start that dialog with Israel regarding Palestine on a similar framework to that of Kosova.

Some form of de-centralization, local rule and gov't, free-movement, economic prosperity and advancement etc, etc will take place. I'm not a scholar of international politics, middle east or otherwise, but I do analyze the current situation critically with the information that I have available.

As a result, neither I nor you can predict with 100% certainty what will happen down the road, but you would be a fool not to recognize that Israel sees the Kosova experiment as a viable option for the resolution of their conflict.

3. You continue to avoid effectively and factually rebutting my statements that a precedent for changes made to the borders of sovereign countries made by international powers in recent history exists in at least two cases!

4. If you compare the actions and official purpose of KLA gainst the offical definition of a terrorist group on Webster's dictionary, you will clearly see that KLA does not fit the description. They are regarded as para-military/guerrilla fighters and not terrorists. Again one man's dirty stone is another man's diamond.

Yet the fact remains, your gov't still has to negotiate with former top commander of KLA, like you would have had to negotiate with Adem Jashari if he were alive today. While Millosheviq (a former head of state) and his croneys rotted in jail cells!

5. I learned Serbian, why don't you learn Albanian and make the effort to learn about your neighbor? Plus, there are several books that are written in english and by western historians about Kosova and Albanians at large. Too bad Serbians' inherent propensity to discount and disregard anything pro-Albanian as a direct correlation to it being pro-Serb does not allow you to read this information objectively.

But, it is of no surprise to me that you take comfort in your lack of desire to learn, as learning would undoubtadly force you to change your way of thinking on many levels. Should you sincerely insist upon learning more about Kosova and it's people, I would be more than happy to direct you to non-biased and objective material. You would have to promise me that you would approach them with an open and objective mind.

6."In a letter dated 3 June 2006, the President of the Republic of Serbia informed the Secretary-General that the membership of Serbia and Montenegro was being continued by the Republic of Serbia, following Montenegro’s declaration of independence. On 4 February 2003, following the adoption and promulgation of the Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro by the Assembly of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the official name of “ Federal Republic of Yugoslavia” was changed to Serbia and Montenegro. The Socialist “Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new Members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was admitted as a Member of the United Nations by General Assembly resolution A/RES/55/12 of 1 November 2000."

This here thing Matthew, is a direct quote from the UN Members States, July 3rd 2006 press release.

I am not convinced from reading this passage that the UN Security Council explicitly or implicitly sanctions any particular article on the SCG Constitution Charter as one that may have any barring on the UNSC Resolution 1244 with respect to after the dissolution of FRY.

In other words, the "contract" known as UN SC 1244 was signed by the FRY and mentioned the borders of FRY, an not either Republic explicitly in addition to the borders of the then-FRY, or SCG following FRY.

Those borders automatically changed after Montenegro's secession anyways. Just because Serbia continued SCG in the UN Assembly, it does not de-facto mean that the UNSC 1244 applies to the newly formed Republic of Serbia.

Maybe if Serbia did not change its official name and currency more often than The Former Artist Known As Prince changes his name and pants, you wouldn't find your self questioning the entire application of UN SC 1244 to the current situation.

7. Let us for a moment assume that UNSC 1244 is applicable to the change in border issue. Even if this were to be so, the fact that a precedent exists for the creation of two new states from one state in no less than two recent historical examples, makes Kosova's issue that much more easier to solve according to the US's plan.

8. Lastly, I haven't heard one plausible alternative proposed by the Serbian government? What does more than autonomy-less than independence mean?

Is Serbia ready to change it's name to something like the Republic of Serbia and the Provincial Authority of Kosova?

How about making Serbian and Albanian the official languages of that new country?

Incorporating Albanian insignia in that state's formal insignia?

Recognizing at the state level, once and for all, the Albanian's rightful existance in Kosova where they enjoy ethnic majority as their historical habitat?

Making Albanians a protected entity within the new country's laws, even going so far as guaranteeing them tax breaks and exemptions, quotas and assistance in education and financial improvement?

Making sure that Albanian history as well as Serbian history is learned in every school?

Granting veto power to a Kosova official elected solely by Kosova people, regarding Kosova matters, who would be granted a co-PM title in the new country's goverenment regarding Kosova issues?

Agreeing to 4 year terms for the PM position, and guaranteeing that every 5th election cycle an Albanian, as elected by the Kosova people, would be granted Prime Minister title of the entire country if one had not been elected by the general elections within that 5 cycle term? This would ensure that at least 20% of the time, this new country would be lead by a leader elected by 20% of the population representing roughly 20% of the physical territory.

Allowing international monitoring forces to stay in Kosova to assure fairness by all sides?

Allowing free movement of people and capital between the Kosova Provincial Authority and Albania?

In 35-50 years the people of both regions can hold a fair referendum to decide whether they want to continue in Unity?

Make a public and unequivacal statement apologizing to the people of Kosova, specifically the Albanians, for the cruel and inhumane treatment that Albanians endured under the Serbian regime?

Reimburse all Albanians for lost lives, wages, property, and emotional distress during the abuse we endured for 25 years?

Find and return all of the missing bodies of albanians that have been missing since the 1998?

Hold responsible all of those responsible for ethnic cleansing during the war?

This my friend would have been a sincere effort by Serbia to have offered 5 or 6 years ago, and the Western powers would have probably accepted it!

Subjectively speaking, as an Albanian, I would have been disappointed initially for not receiving my independence, but if this plan were to be enforced in full, I would reap benefits that would have possibly made it worthwhile down the road for me to try in earnest and make it work one last time with the Serbian neighbor.

Serbians would also have time to see if providing for this territory is really worth it for them if the people there are not going to get along.

35-50years, if such a plan were to be employed, would have been enough time for the current factions and hatered to pass tone down, and the new and informed generation to grab the bull by the horns.

If this was put on the table immediately after Millosheviq was handed to Hague, this type of an offer by the Serbian gov't in good faith to Kosova, would have had a chance.

Instead, the Serbian gov't and its people chose to engage in propaganda that sounded like more of the same to the Western powers. Bon apetite!

“I have no need or intentions to mis-direct anyone by posting my comments under the screen name of another person”

Duly noted and I apologize. The wiki comments seemed related.

“it is of no surprise to me that you take comfort in your lack of desire to learn, as learning would undoubtadly force you to change your way of thinking on many levels.”

Please keep in mind that I did previously politely ask you to refrain from those types of personal attacks, if you doubt my sincerity, I can not possibly see how we could engage in a rational discussion. If you really want to just forum troll with my son, I suppose we can arrange that instead of rationally discussing the issues if you truly would like that instead? Feel free to read my earlier posts, it doesn’t make sense for me to restate everything I’ve said previously every new post.

“This my friend would have been a sincere effort by Serbia to have offered 5 or 6 years ago, and the Western powers would have probably accepted it!”

Adem excellent work and excellent points. I think those suggestions you mention in item 8 are actually very clever, and possibly a plausible alternative to what Ahtisaari is proposing. I can not encourage enough that I would like to hear more alternative and fresh ideas from the Kosovar side in regards to possible solutions besides merely independence. I think just discussing the situation and learning to talk to one another is the most important thing, regardless of whether a solution is actually found. We are and always will be neighbors with common interests for our region, we need to forge alliances in the future regardless of the outcome of the status talks. You are also very correct that Serbia should have taken a more constructive approach to the situation and play by modern Western standards of diplomacy. Serbia is not a major world power who can dictate terms to others. This link was posted by Jovan I believe last week and has some interesting ideas similar to many of yours. Some of the site is nationalistic in nature, but some of these compromise ideas had not really occurred to me before. Check it out.

http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pages/kosovo_tommorow/sub_links/1/1.htm

“12) Rotational collective presidency/leadership allowing for all ethnic groups to be leaders from time to time”

and your idea

“Agreeing to 4 year terms for the PM position, and guaranteeing that every 5th election cycle an Albanian, as elected by the Kosova people, would be granted Prime Minister title of the entire country if one had not been elected by the general elections within that 5 cycle term?”

However, I support the Right to Self Determination for both Serbians and Albanians, we have the exact same issue with our populations scattered across various countries. We should support one another. Therefore I support partition as an option to solve the Kosovo crisis as it seems to be the most plausible workable solution to the issue at this time, but I’m more then willing to entertain other ideas. Knowledge is power, and there can be no greater aspiration then the exchange of ideas, especially with those you disagree most with. We must learn to see one another as individuals with differing ideas, thoughts, and desires. The era of ascribing entire populations with the same stereo-types and misconceptions must stop if ever we are to move into modern times.

Srebenica and the cluster bombing are Zagreb are both crimes against humanity and those responsible should see justice. I do not consider the desire to impose the same conditions on the country of my birth, the US, “taking the higher ground”. I was not saying that Serbia was being “nice” for not using cluster bombs, but simply the punishment for the crimes must be applied consistently if International Law is to have any sort of legitimacy. However I fully understand the reality of world politics and know that International Law is openly flaunted by those strong enough to do so. This however, does not relinquish me from an obligation to vocally oppose the gradual denigration of the Rule of Law. I fully agree Serbia has made countless grave mistakes with terrible negative consequences for everyone involved. All the more reason to voice my opinions.

“You continue to avoid effectively and factually rebutting my statements that a precedent for changes made to the borders of sovereign countries made by international powers in recent history exists in at least two cases!”

Maybe because I agree with you on substance, but not your argument, so I didn’t see the point in bringing in up, but since you asked...

In fact, you’re missing the best example supporting your hypothesis. First though, Germany, Korea, (as well as Taiwan) are and were really just viewed as temporary situations. No one who follows the relations between the Koreas doubts that some day in the future the North & South will eventually join again, similar to Reagan’s famous quote, “Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”. The German and Korean models are more closely examples of supervised autonomy gone awry temporarily and not a permanent independence precedent.

The country that is however completely on point is Croatia, timeline, geography, and situation all match. Use that. Despite the recommendations of the UN that Croatia was not ready for independence yet, because of its poor human rights conditions at the time, (similar to the abandonment of the “standards” part of the Kosovo mission) Croatia unilaterally declared independence under the sponsorship of their patron Germany, who was prompt in their support and recognition. Ironically, Helmut Kohl cut a deal with John Major that in exchange for German support in the adoption of the Euro, the UK in return would recognize Croatia. The UK to this day, still has yet to adopt the Euro. Clearly a major coup for German diplomacy in the EU.

A nearly identical situation exists in Kosovo, with the US as their sponsor, denying that is of course ludicrous. Of course the same tactics may be used by the Serbs of North Kosovo with Russia as their sponsor. This is a messy way to go about it (As we saw in Croatia), I suggest a rational discussion about partition occur now, while it can be done with the least bloodshed and violence (Not that I advocate violence as a solution or negotiation point in any way shape or form, I abhor it). This is why the Ahtisaari proposal is so dangerous. If it is to be independence, that should be clearly stated with rock solid guidelines, not the possible starting point of a potential conflict. I do not have much confidence in the way the International Community has handled things in the region in the past, clearly much bloodshed could have been avoided with a more cautious approach and some thought.

“In other words, the "contract" known as UN SC 1244 was signed by the FRY and mentioned the borders of FRY, an not either Republic explicitly in addition to the borders of the then-FRY, or SCG following FRY”

OK the link I provided was to the Constitution of “Serbia & Montenegro”, article 60 is very clear about succession to UN membership & 1244 and how it is to function in the event that Montenegro leaves the union on its own, this was agreed to by both Serbia and Montenegro and of course approved by the International Community who were very involved at the time in helping to negotiate and draft that document. Remember they wanted Montenegro to stay in Serbia at that time. Succession would have been different if Serbia or both Serbia & Montenegro had held referendums and that is also spelled out clearly there. You are right in the fact that the UN did not accept FRY as the successor state to Yugoslavia, but it did in fact accept first “Serbia & Montenegro” and then just Serbia as the legitimate successor state to FRY. That would seem to be a strong indication that UN resolutions would also apply with the same successor applications. I believe this is how it generally works there. Montenegro was forced to apply as a new nation, but Serbia was not. “Legally” I think I’m standing on fairly solid ground. Look for applicable examples (fully on point) of successor states where they didn’t inherit resolutions binding to their previous seat. Find those, and you have a very valid argument. In that case, I will Tip my Hat to you Sir. Keep in mind the precedent of The People’s Republic of China inheriting the UNSC seat when they were declared the successor to what had been held by the government in Taiwan, now regulated to merely Observer Status in the UN, a possible perpetual outcome for Kosovo if Ahtisaari’s proposal is not specific on actual independence. Clearly this could possibly lead to future violence as well and is a BS way for a people to live.

However, I agree, in reality 1244 will probably be ignored, but not on any valid legal basis. That is my only real issue. I just feel its another example of the disregard for international treaties and laws.

“but you would be a fool not to recognize that Israel sees the Kosova experiment as a viable option for the resolution of their conflict.”

The International Community supports conditions in Palestine similar to what Kosovo will probably get, however the Israeli government as I’ve said strongly opposes some of those conditions and both sides will be forced to find a compromise between the two positions, this much is clear to me. In my opinion the Israeli government will pay attention to the Kosovo situation mostly because they’ll want to learn from the mistakes of Serbia and not because they want to give the same concessions to the Palestinians as what Kosovars will get.

Israel has a right to exist and to defend themselves. After what happened to them in WWII it comes as no surprise to me that they would meet any possible threat to their existence as fiercely and strongly and with as much over whelming force as they can muster. However, its obvious that the conflict is now beginning to threaten world peace and stability. After 40 years, we pretty much need a settlement of the issue, even if it must be imposed.

Your arguments are good, you just need to tighten up a bit, find situations a little more on point, and double check some of your facts, then you’d be good to go dude!