12

Saturday, 03.02.2007.

14:11

Koštunica: Proposal illegitimate

The Serbian prime minister said yesterday that the <a href="http://www.b92.net/eng/insight/reports.php?yyyy=2007&mm=02&nav_id=39411" class="text-link" target= "_blank">Kosovo status proposal </a>was illegitimate.

Izvor: B92

Koštunica: Proposal illegitimate IMAGE SOURCE
IMAGE DESCRIPTION

12 Komentari

Sortiraj po:

ahlich

pre 17 godina

Obilic:

Any 15 minutes of crossing data and checking facts on the web could have spared you of the humiliation.
Reality rarely present itself in a black and white, binary message. The balkans are a pretty good example of that.
There's no such thing as an innocent nation and certainly not during the second world war. The adjective innocent should refer exclusively to the people(s) and in this case we can point out the Jews, but we should also mention all other such as Roma, Russians and so on. Including the German people themselves (is it wrong to remember the non-Jewish German that died? They did put Adolf Hitler in the seat of power... Ignorance is only second to Deceit. Not long ago the president of the European Parliament referred to the nordic countries societies as not having suffered with the second war. The comment caused indignation and outrage among the parliament representatives of those countries. Like you, Obilic, Mr Borrel should have checked his facts before allowing himself to articulate an uninformed speech. During 90's conflicts in the ex-jugoslavija, I always asked people to check their facts before jumping into conclusions and decide that these are the good guys and these other are the bad guys.
If anything, the Serbs can complain more than any other people of the former federation of being portrayed constantly as the wrong doers.
A few ideas about Finland: Neither the finish state or the soldiers themselves volunteer to the SS ranks: Germany demanded so as part of the payment for helping out with the Karelia issue.. Your words suggest that Finland was actually eager to send troops to join the SS and that is why it signed a pact with the third reich... Any 6 year old would laugh of that idea were it not such a delicate matter. Finland made a deal with Germany because it had too - It was the only way of keeping Russia at large. Finland used Germany while refusing to help invade Saint Petersburg and all throughout the war years it received Jew refugees from Germany and other countries. Actually there were jews serving on the finnish army...
The goals do not justify the means and bashing one of the most tolerant and equal societies in Europe just to try to reach Ahtisaari's neck is pitiful to say the least.
The question you should have asked is: Why did Finland helped the nazis on Germany eastern border sending hundreds of thousands of men when their proclaimed goals were only to secure finnish territorial integrity? 1200 kids that the SS recruited for their ranks are irrelevant compared to that. U, of course you have this But that, of course, is irrelevant to you. Your agenda is to create a black and white world on which the statement "either you are with us or against us", becomes the ruling law. The "high representative" plan is weak but hardly a surprise and an it is becoming obvious to more and more observers that Kosovo will achieve its albanian aspiration sooner or later. Instead of attacking Ahtisaari you should be questioning all the politicians that have their seat in NATO, EU and alikes and start asking if Kosovo will create a precedent for other aspiring nations namely: Scotland, Chechnia, Corsica, The Basque country and Catalunia, to name a few...

olli

pre 17 godina

Obilic, and your merry followers Princip and konstantin gregovic,

Your argumentation, beside being a show piece of self-abusing ignorance, also functions as an example why Serbia keeps on losing its cases both on Balkan and international stage.

J.S.

pre 17 godina

Serbia will never again return to one person rule, and if this is obvious to me who is one of the slowest of learners, then it is obvious to everyone.

No person is the sole repository of all wisdom, knowledge, judgement or even good character. Sometimes I would even dare to pressume that I could be, but the stark reality is that I am fallible even as we all are fallible, and 250 minds are always better than one.

This is why I am completely convinced that Serbia will always be a Parliamentary Democracy, and will never again return to one person rule.

With this in mind, the International Buisness Community can have full confidence that they can safely and wisely invest their money in Serbia and received high profits for their wise decision.

In my opinion, Serbia should help the International Buisness Community to have such strong confidence with it's guarantee that they will only default on any monies owed to the March 1999 NATO countries, and then borrow the equivalent money from different sources and invest this money in the infrastucture that the wise Buinesses that come to Serbia will need to maximize their profits. Serbia will most definitely honour their new loan repayments because even tough the Serbian people are not perfect, they are honest. The Serbian people are not theives, and they will default only on the March 1999 NATO countries for two very good reasons. Firstly, it will be good for the economy, and secondly it is viewed as partial compensation. Serbia knows that the wise investors do not believe everything they read in the Western Media. If any CEO does believe everything that is written in the Western Media, then I pitty not only him but especially his Shareholders for have put their trust in him to have intelligence. and Serbia does not need such people, because we are only a small nation, and we do not need every Buisnessperson to come to Serbia , but only wise ones.

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

The EU should forgive all of Serbia's debt as payment for a more cooperative stance towards Kosovo's eventual status which is going to be finalized probably in 10 years' time.Money TALKS/BS walks.
(luciano, 3 February 2007, 23:15)

Agreed.

Tom

pre 17 godina

What Obilic is writing about is, firstly, a good example of an opinion that is based on something else than any reason. Secondly, it shows equally well that anything else but looking oneself in the mirror seems to suit people like Obilic. Why try to solve problems when you can always put the blame on others? I think we should seriously study how the Swedish royalties during decades have been contributing to the present Kosovo crisis! And what about Princess Diana? She must have some guilt in this also. I would likewise like to question the morale of Donald Duck! The guys doesn't wear any trousers so he must have played a part in developments around Kosovo!

????

pre 17 godina

B92 two days ago:

Serbian Jews: "Serbia is the only country in Europe not to ensure the restitution of stolen Jewish property."

“Nothing has been done on the issue, even when there was a chance”, Aca Singer, president of the Union of Jewish Communities, told Novi Sad daily Dnevnik. He reminded that Jews in Serbia were robbed of their property from 1941 to 1944, under the regime of Milan Nedić, who collaborated with Nazi German occupation forces in Serbia.


-----------
I have a guiding principal: The truth is the opposite of what Kostunica says. Remember this.

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!
(Victor, 3 February 2007, 18:57)

How is Milosevic responsible? He has not even been convicted guilty in Absentia form the ICTY Kangaroo court? Even the prosecutor Del Ponte admired him for his defense.

As for the break up of Yugoslavia, it was encouraged by Bosnian-Muslim fanatices, and the right wing arm of Franjo Tudjaman's governent which included heavy support from Nazi Ustasha supporters.

Princip, UK

pre 17 godina

Thanks Obilic,

it is clear that Athisarri has acted in a non partial manner and in some respects this has backfired on the US - the fact that Athisarri was so impartial ensured that Serbia was not taken for a ride. They stood firm and can still stand by their legal and principled arguments ensuring that there will never be a 2nd Albania - well unless Finland wants to create one fair enough.

Maybe there will be a unified all party position spelling out once and for all the objection to Athisarri and his proposal.

Nick

pre 17 godina

Obilic,

Serbian concentration camps for jews and roma Sajmište and Banjica.

Under General Nedić, Belgrade was declared to be Judenfrei in 1942.

During the nazi occupation of this part of Europe, many pupet states were established and many people collaborated with the germans, including some serbian centik bands.

The Fins had two choices, either side with the germans or with the Russians, and considering their history with the Russians you can not blame them for prefering the germans.

You cant judge a whole nation by a 4 year period. The fins are one of the most peaceful people in Europe and to label them nazi is not only false but also totally ignorant.

Jack

pre 17 godina

This does not surprise me at all. Maybe Ahtisaari will also suggest some sort of memorial for the Waffen SS Handzar Division in Bosnia http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/handzar.htm ) and the Waffen SS Skanderbeg Division in Kosovo ( http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html ).

Victor

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!

Obilic

pre 17 godina

this should tell you something.....


Finland’s Nazi Past

Martti Ahtisaari and Finland’s Nazi Past

At the time of the illegal NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 when Martti Ahtisaari was the President of Finland, his government sought to commemorate and to honor Finland’s Nazi SS volunteers from the Holocaust. If Ahtisaari had bothered to check the decisions of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals, he would have found that that court held that all Waffen SS troops were war criminals guilty of war crimes and guilty of committing crimes against humanity, namely the mass murder of Jews. Ahtisaari lacks even an elementary understanding of the Holocaust and the role of the SS in the Final Solution.

In 1999, Martti Ahtisaari’s Finnish government supported official government plans to honor and to commemorate Finland’s Nazi Waffen SS violunteers during World War II. The Finnish government plan was to mark the graves of Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers who had been killed in the Soviet Union. Finland had over, 1,400 Finnish volunteers in the Nazi Waffen SS, 300 of whom were killed in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus. Finland concluded a secret agreement with Nazi Germany before the invasion of the USSR that would allow Finland to secretly send Finnish volunteers to Heinrich Himmler’s Waffen SS forces. Himmler formed a Finnish Waffen SS Volunteer Battalion from these Finnish troops called “Nordost”. This Finnish Battalion was attached to the “Nordland” Waffen SS Regiment of the 5th SS Division “Wiking”, one of the most brutal and fanatical Nazi SS Divisions of World War II, commanded by Felix Steiner.

Finnish Nazi SS troops formed the vanguard and spearheaded the German Wehrmacht assault against the Stalingrad and Caucasus regions in 1942 and advanced to the Grozny oil fields in Chechnya. This was the farthest Nazi advance into the Soviet Union by the Axis, spearheaded by Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers. It is important to remember that the Finnish government of Risto Ryti sent the Finnish Nazi SS volunteers. There was government action on the part of Finland. Ryti should have been prosecuted for war crimes and for genocide. But he never was. Finland’s Nazi past and role in the Holocaust was blurred and obscured by Finnish propaganda.

The memorial would consist of a small monument or plaque erected by Ahtisaari’s Finnish government at a burial site in southern Ukraine where the remains of 150 Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers are buried. Finns were initially considered non-Aryans because they belonged to the Finno-Ugric language group, not regarded as Indo-European under Nazi racist policy. Nevertheless, Himmler accepted Finns into the elite, racially pure, Waffen SS, as belonging to the Nordic racial stock and regarded Finns as among his best SS troops.

Finland’s Jewish groups protested to President Martti Ahtisaari because his government was subsidizing or financing the project. Gideon Bolotowsky, a Finnish Jewish leader, accused Ahtisaari of financing Nazism. Bolotowsky told Reuters: “They (the government) are giving money to a Nazi cause. They did not fight for Finland. …It is a mistake of the government.”

What is remarkable is that Ahtisaari’s government defended this honoring of Finnish Nazi SS war criminals. In a May 10, 1999 Reuters news story, it was reported:

“Officials defended the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.

‘All governments erect monuments or plaques to their war dead,’ said Heikki Hakala, executive director of the Society for Remembrance of the War Dead. ‘This (momument) would be to honour the fallen soldiers, not for any particular deed…’

An official at the ministry of education, which donated 500,000 markka ($91,000) to the society, said the government saw nothing wrong with the plan as there was no evidence the Finnish SS battalion was involved in any Nazi attrocities.”

In 1958, the Finnish government completely exonerated the Nazi SS volunteers and gave them full “combatant rights”.

Shimon Samuels of the Simon Wiesenthal Center said in a statement: “Just when the German government is applying legislation to strip such volunteers of their war pensions, Finland is acting to effectively vindicate Nazi units associated with war crimes and thus to balances the Holocaust by equaling perpetrators and victims.'’

Samuels asked Martti Ahtisaari to use his influence with the government to “desist from this act of historical revisionism.'’

Martti Ahtisaari and his governemtn defended the plan: “Officials defend the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.”

Samuels told Reuters that he had written to President Martti Ahtisaari that honoring Finnish Nazi SS volunteers would “betray the image of Finnish neutrality as much as it (would) offend the honor of the victims of Hitlerism.'’

The Paris-based European Jewish Congress said in a statement that Ahtisaari’s commemoration of the Finnish Nazi SS war criminals “is an offence to all victims of the Nazis and jeopardizes the educational objectives of the European Union member countries to combat racism and anti-Semitism.”

The Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal held all Waffen SS members to be guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why doesn’t Ahtisaari know this? Is he that ignorant? The Finnish Nazi SS volunteers enabled Hitler to murder Jews, Russians, Roma, and Sinti. Didn’t the Finnish leaders know about the anti-Semitism of the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler? Didn’t they know about Kristallnacht in 1938 or the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935? Didn’t they know what Hitler intended to do with the Jews in the Soviet Union? Didn’t the Finnish government know about Hitler’s concept of lebensraum, under which he planned to exterminate the Russian population and settle Russia with ethnic Germans? Of course, Martti Ahtisaari doesn’t know about any of this?

If this doesn’t finally discredit the ICG and put the last nail in its coffin, nothing will. Fact is stranger than fiction. You could never make this up.

Martti Ahtisaari, as President of Finland, sought to honor and commemorate Finnish Nazi SS war criminals, war criminals held guilty by the Nuremberg Tribunal of committing crimes against humanity and of participation in the Final Solution, the genocide of European Jews.

*link*
http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=25

Obilic

pre 17 godina

this should tell you something.....


Finland’s Nazi Past

Martti Ahtisaari and Finland’s Nazi Past

At the time of the illegal NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 when Martti Ahtisaari was the President of Finland, his government sought to commemorate and to honor Finland’s Nazi SS volunteers from the Holocaust. If Ahtisaari had bothered to check the decisions of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals, he would have found that that court held that all Waffen SS troops were war criminals guilty of war crimes and guilty of committing crimes against humanity, namely the mass murder of Jews. Ahtisaari lacks even an elementary understanding of the Holocaust and the role of the SS in the Final Solution.

In 1999, Martti Ahtisaari’s Finnish government supported official government plans to honor and to commemorate Finland’s Nazi Waffen SS violunteers during World War II. The Finnish government plan was to mark the graves of Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers who had been killed in the Soviet Union. Finland had over, 1,400 Finnish volunteers in the Nazi Waffen SS, 300 of whom were killed in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus. Finland concluded a secret agreement with Nazi Germany before the invasion of the USSR that would allow Finland to secretly send Finnish volunteers to Heinrich Himmler’s Waffen SS forces. Himmler formed a Finnish Waffen SS Volunteer Battalion from these Finnish troops called “Nordost”. This Finnish Battalion was attached to the “Nordland” Waffen SS Regiment of the 5th SS Division “Wiking”, one of the most brutal and fanatical Nazi SS Divisions of World War II, commanded by Felix Steiner.

Finnish Nazi SS troops formed the vanguard and spearheaded the German Wehrmacht assault against the Stalingrad and Caucasus regions in 1942 and advanced to the Grozny oil fields in Chechnya. This was the farthest Nazi advance into the Soviet Union by the Axis, spearheaded by Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers. It is important to remember that the Finnish government of Risto Ryti sent the Finnish Nazi SS volunteers. There was government action on the part of Finland. Ryti should have been prosecuted for war crimes and for genocide. But he never was. Finland’s Nazi past and role in the Holocaust was blurred and obscured by Finnish propaganda.

The memorial would consist of a small monument or plaque erected by Ahtisaari’s Finnish government at a burial site in southern Ukraine where the remains of 150 Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers are buried. Finns were initially considered non-Aryans because they belonged to the Finno-Ugric language group, not regarded as Indo-European under Nazi racist policy. Nevertheless, Himmler accepted Finns into the elite, racially pure, Waffen SS, as belonging to the Nordic racial stock and regarded Finns as among his best SS troops.

Finland’s Jewish groups protested to President Martti Ahtisaari because his government was subsidizing or financing the project. Gideon Bolotowsky, a Finnish Jewish leader, accused Ahtisaari of financing Nazism. Bolotowsky told Reuters: “They (the government) are giving money to a Nazi cause. They did not fight for Finland. …It is a mistake of the government.”

What is remarkable is that Ahtisaari’s government defended this honoring of Finnish Nazi SS war criminals. In a May 10, 1999 Reuters news story, it was reported:

“Officials defended the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.

‘All governments erect monuments or plaques to their war dead,’ said Heikki Hakala, executive director of the Society for Remembrance of the War Dead. ‘This (momument) would be to honour the fallen soldiers, not for any particular deed…’

An official at the ministry of education, which donated 500,000 markka ($91,000) to the society, said the government saw nothing wrong with the plan as there was no evidence the Finnish SS battalion was involved in any Nazi attrocities.”

In 1958, the Finnish government completely exonerated the Nazi SS volunteers and gave them full “combatant rights”.

Shimon Samuels of the Simon Wiesenthal Center said in a statement: “Just when the German government is applying legislation to strip such volunteers of their war pensions, Finland is acting to effectively vindicate Nazi units associated with war crimes and thus to balances the Holocaust by equaling perpetrators and victims.'’

Samuels asked Martti Ahtisaari to use his influence with the government to “desist from this act of historical revisionism.'’

Martti Ahtisaari and his governemtn defended the plan: “Officials defend the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.”

Samuels told Reuters that he had written to President Martti Ahtisaari that honoring Finnish Nazi SS volunteers would “betray the image of Finnish neutrality as much as it (would) offend the honor of the victims of Hitlerism.'’

The Paris-based European Jewish Congress said in a statement that Ahtisaari’s commemoration of the Finnish Nazi SS war criminals “is an offence to all victims of the Nazis and jeopardizes the educational objectives of the European Union member countries to combat racism and anti-Semitism.”

The Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal held all Waffen SS members to be guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why doesn’t Ahtisaari know this? Is he that ignorant? The Finnish Nazi SS volunteers enabled Hitler to murder Jews, Russians, Roma, and Sinti. Didn’t the Finnish leaders know about the anti-Semitism of the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler? Didn’t they know about Kristallnacht in 1938 or the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935? Didn’t they know what Hitler intended to do with the Jews in the Soviet Union? Didn’t the Finnish government know about Hitler’s concept of lebensraum, under which he planned to exterminate the Russian population and settle Russia with ethnic Germans? Of course, Martti Ahtisaari doesn’t know about any of this?

If this doesn’t finally discredit the ICG and put the last nail in its coffin, nothing will. Fact is stranger than fiction. You could never make this up.

Martti Ahtisaari, as President of Finland, sought to honor and commemorate Finnish Nazi SS war criminals, war criminals held guilty by the Nuremberg Tribunal of committing crimes against humanity and of participation in the Final Solution, the genocide of European Jews.

*link*
http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=25

Jack

pre 17 godina

This does not surprise me at all. Maybe Ahtisaari will also suggest some sort of memorial for the Waffen SS Handzar Division in Bosnia http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/handzar.htm ) and the Waffen SS Skanderbeg Division in Kosovo ( http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html ).

Victor

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!

Princip, UK

pre 17 godina

Thanks Obilic,

it is clear that Athisarri has acted in a non partial manner and in some respects this has backfired on the US - the fact that Athisarri was so impartial ensured that Serbia was not taken for a ride. They stood firm and can still stand by their legal and principled arguments ensuring that there will never be a 2nd Albania - well unless Finland wants to create one fair enough.

Maybe there will be a unified all party position spelling out once and for all the objection to Athisarri and his proposal.

Nick

pre 17 godina

Obilic,

Serbian concentration camps for jews and roma Sajmište and Banjica.

Under General Nedić, Belgrade was declared to be Judenfrei in 1942.

During the nazi occupation of this part of Europe, many pupet states were established and many people collaborated with the germans, including some serbian centik bands.

The Fins had two choices, either side with the germans or with the Russians, and considering their history with the Russians you can not blame them for prefering the germans.

You cant judge a whole nation by a 4 year period. The fins are one of the most peaceful people in Europe and to label them nazi is not only false but also totally ignorant.

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!
(Victor, 3 February 2007, 18:57)

How is Milosevic responsible? He has not even been convicted guilty in Absentia form the ICTY Kangaroo court? Even the prosecutor Del Ponte admired him for his defense.

As for the break up of Yugoslavia, it was encouraged by Bosnian-Muslim fanatices, and the right wing arm of Franjo Tudjaman's governent which included heavy support from Nazi Ustasha supporters.

????

pre 17 godina

B92 two days ago:

Serbian Jews: "Serbia is the only country in Europe not to ensure the restitution of stolen Jewish property."

“Nothing has been done on the issue, even when there was a chance”, Aca Singer, president of the Union of Jewish Communities, told Novi Sad daily Dnevnik. He reminded that Jews in Serbia were robbed of their property from 1941 to 1944, under the regime of Milan Nedić, who collaborated with Nazi German occupation forces in Serbia.


-----------
I have a guiding principal: The truth is the opposite of what Kostunica says. Remember this.

Tom

pre 17 godina

What Obilic is writing about is, firstly, a good example of an opinion that is based on something else than any reason. Secondly, it shows equally well that anything else but looking oneself in the mirror seems to suit people like Obilic. Why try to solve problems when you can always put the blame on others? I think we should seriously study how the Swedish royalties during decades have been contributing to the present Kosovo crisis! And what about Princess Diana? She must have some guilt in this also. I would likewise like to question the morale of Donald Duck! The guys doesn't wear any trousers so he must have played a part in developments around Kosovo!

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

The EU should forgive all of Serbia's debt as payment for a more cooperative stance towards Kosovo's eventual status which is going to be finalized probably in 10 years' time.Money TALKS/BS walks.
(luciano, 3 February 2007, 23:15)

Agreed.

J.S.

pre 17 godina

Serbia will never again return to one person rule, and if this is obvious to me who is one of the slowest of learners, then it is obvious to everyone.

No person is the sole repository of all wisdom, knowledge, judgement or even good character. Sometimes I would even dare to pressume that I could be, but the stark reality is that I am fallible even as we all are fallible, and 250 minds are always better than one.

This is why I am completely convinced that Serbia will always be a Parliamentary Democracy, and will never again return to one person rule.

With this in mind, the International Buisness Community can have full confidence that they can safely and wisely invest their money in Serbia and received high profits for their wise decision.

In my opinion, Serbia should help the International Buisness Community to have such strong confidence with it's guarantee that they will only default on any monies owed to the March 1999 NATO countries, and then borrow the equivalent money from different sources and invest this money in the infrastucture that the wise Buinesses that come to Serbia will need to maximize their profits. Serbia will most definitely honour their new loan repayments because even tough the Serbian people are not perfect, they are honest. The Serbian people are not theives, and they will default only on the March 1999 NATO countries for two very good reasons. Firstly, it will be good for the economy, and secondly it is viewed as partial compensation. Serbia knows that the wise investors do not believe everything they read in the Western Media. If any CEO does believe everything that is written in the Western Media, then I pitty not only him but especially his Shareholders for have put their trust in him to have intelligence. and Serbia does not need such people, because we are only a small nation, and we do not need every Buisnessperson to come to Serbia , but only wise ones.

olli

pre 17 godina

Obilic, and your merry followers Princip and konstantin gregovic,

Your argumentation, beside being a show piece of self-abusing ignorance, also functions as an example why Serbia keeps on losing its cases both on Balkan and international stage.

ahlich

pre 17 godina

Obilic:

Any 15 minutes of crossing data and checking facts on the web could have spared you of the humiliation.
Reality rarely present itself in a black and white, binary message. The balkans are a pretty good example of that.
There's no such thing as an innocent nation and certainly not during the second world war. The adjective innocent should refer exclusively to the people(s) and in this case we can point out the Jews, but we should also mention all other such as Roma, Russians and so on. Including the German people themselves (is it wrong to remember the non-Jewish German that died? They did put Adolf Hitler in the seat of power... Ignorance is only second to Deceit. Not long ago the president of the European Parliament referred to the nordic countries societies as not having suffered with the second war. The comment caused indignation and outrage among the parliament representatives of those countries. Like you, Obilic, Mr Borrel should have checked his facts before allowing himself to articulate an uninformed speech. During 90's conflicts in the ex-jugoslavija, I always asked people to check their facts before jumping into conclusions and decide that these are the good guys and these other are the bad guys.
If anything, the Serbs can complain more than any other people of the former federation of being portrayed constantly as the wrong doers.
A few ideas about Finland: Neither the finish state or the soldiers themselves volunteer to the SS ranks: Germany demanded so as part of the payment for helping out with the Karelia issue.. Your words suggest that Finland was actually eager to send troops to join the SS and that is why it signed a pact with the third reich... Any 6 year old would laugh of that idea were it not such a delicate matter. Finland made a deal with Germany because it had too - It was the only way of keeping Russia at large. Finland used Germany while refusing to help invade Saint Petersburg and all throughout the war years it received Jew refugees from Germany and other countries. Actually there were jews serving on the finnish army...
The goals do not justify the means and bashing one of the most tolerant and equal societies in Europe just to try to reach Ahtisaari's neck is pitiful to say the least.
The question you should have asked is: Why did Finland helped the nazis on Germany eastern border sending hundreds of thousands of men when their proclaimed goals were only to secure finnish territorial integrity? 1200 kids that the SS recruited for their ranks are irrelevant compared to that. U, of course you have this But that, of course, is irrelevant to you. Your agenda is to create a black and white world on which the statement "either you are with us or against us", becomes the ruling law. The "high representative" plan is weak but hardly a surprise and an it is becoming obvious to more and more observers that Kosovo will achieve its albanian aspiration sooner or later. Instead of attacking Ahtisaari you should be questioning all the politicians that have their seat in NATO, EU and alikes and start asking if Kosovo will create a precedent for other aspiring nations namely: Scotland, Chechnia, Corsica, The Basque country and Catalunia, to name a few...

Obilic

pre 17 godina

this should tell you something.....


Finland’s Nazi Past

Martti Ahtisaari and Finland’s Nazi Past

At the time of the illegal NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 when Martti Ahtisaari was the President of Finland, his government sought to commemorate and to honor Finland’s Nazi SS volunteers from the Holocaust. If Ahtisaari had bothered to check the decisions of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals, he would have found that that court held that all Waffen SS troops were war criminals guilty of war crimes and guilty of committing crimes against humanity, namely the mass murder of Jews. Ahtisaari lacks even an elementary understanding of the Holocaust and the role of the SS in the Final Solution.

In 1999, Martti Ahtisaari’s Finnish government supported official government plans to honor and to commemorate Finland’s Nazi Waffen SS violunteers during World War II. The Finnish government plan was to mark the graves of Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers who had been killed in the Soviet Union. Finland had over, 1,400 Finnish volunteers in the Nazi Waffen SS, 300 of whom were killed in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus. Finland concluded a secret agreement with Nazi Germany before the invasion of the USSR that would allow Finland to secretly send Finnish volunteers to Heinrich Himmler’s Waffen SS forces. Himmler formed a Finnish Waffen SS Volunteer Battalion from these Finnish troops called “Nordost”. This Finnish Battalion was attached to the “Nordland” Waffen SS Regiment of the 5th SS Division “Wiking”, one of the most brutal and fanatical Nazi SS Divisions of World War II, commanded by Felix Steiner.

Finnish Nazi SS troops formed the vanguard and spearheaded the German Wehrmacht assault against the Stalingrad and Caucasus regions in 1942 and advanced to the Grozny oil fields in Chechnya. This was the farthest Nazi advance into the Soviet Union by the Axis, spearheaded by Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers. It is important to remember that the Finnish government of Risto Ryti sent the Finnish Nazi SS volunteers. There was government action on the part of Finland. Ryti should have been prosecuted for war crimes and for genocide. But he never was. Finland’s Nazi past and role in the Holocaust was blurred and obscured by Finnish propaganda.

The memorial would consist of a small monument or plaque erected by Ahtisaari’s Finnish government at a burial site in southern Ukraine where the remains of 150 Finnish Nazi Waffen SS volunteers are buried. Finns were initially considered non-Aryans because they belonged to the Finno-Ugric language group, not regarded as Indo-European under Nazi racist policy. Nevertheless, Himmler accepted Finns into the elite, racially pure, Waffen SS, as belonging to the Nordic racial stock and regarded Finns as among his best SS troops.

Finland’s Jewish groups protested to President Martti Ahtisaari because his government was subsidizing or financing the project. Gideon Bolotowsky, a Finnish Jewish leader, accused Ahtisaari of financing Nazism. Bolotowsky told Reuters: “They (the government) are giving money to a Nazi cause. They did not fight for Finland. …It is a mistake of the government.”

What is remarkable is that Ahtisaari’s government defended this honoring of Finnish Nazi SS war criminals. In a May 10, 1999 Reuters news story, it was reported:

“Officials defended the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.

‘All governments erect monuments or plaques to their war dead,’ said Heikki Hakala, executive director of the Society for Remembrance of the War Dead. ‘This (momument) would be to honour the fallen soldiers, not for any particular deed…’

An official at the ministry of education, which donated 500,000 markka ($91,000) to the society, said the government saw nothing wrong with the plan as there was no evidence the Finnish SS battalion was involved in any Nazi attrocities.”

In 1958, the Finnish government completely exonerated the Nazi SS volunteers and gave them full “combatant rights”.

Shimon Samuels of the Simon Wiesenthal Center said in a statement: “Just when the German government is applying legislation to strip such volunteers of their war pensions, Finland is acting to effectively vindicate Nazi units associated with war crimes and thus to balances the Holocaust by equaling perpetrators and victims.'’

Samuels asked Martti Ahtisaari to use his influence with the government to “desist from this act of historical revisionism.'’

Martti Ahtisaari and his governemtn defended the plan: “Officials defend the plan to commemorate the SS men, saying it would be a gesture of remembrance rather than approval.”

Samuels told Reuters that he had written to President Martti Ahtisaari that honoring Finnish Nazi SS volunteers would “betray the image of Finnish neutrality as much as it (would) offend the honor of the victims of Hitlerism.'’

The Paris-based European Jewish Congress said in a statement that Ahtisaari’s commemoration of the Finnish Nazi SS war criminals “is an offence to all victims of the Nazis and jeopardizes the educational objectives of the European Union member countries to combat racism and anti-Semitism.”

The Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal held all Waffen SS members to be guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why doesn’t Ahtisaari know this? Is he that ignorant? The Finnish Nazi SS volunteers enabled Hitler to murder Jews, Russians, Roma, and Sinti. Didn’t the Finnish leaders know about the anti-Semitism of the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler? Didn’t they know about Kristallnacht in 1938 or the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935? Didn’t they know what Hitler intended to do with the Jews in the Soviet Union? Didn’t the Finnish government know about Hitler’s concept of lebensraum, under which he planned to exterminate the Russian population and settle Russia with ethnic Germans? Of course, Martti Ahtisaari doesn’t know about any of this?

If this doesn’t finally discredit the ICG and put the last nail in its coffin, nothing will. Fact is stranger than fiction. You could never make this up.

Martti Ahtisaari, as President of Finland, sought to honor and commemorate Finnish Nazi SS war criminals, war criminals held guilty by the Nuremberg Tribunal of committing crimes against humanity and of participation in the Final Solution, the genocide of European Jews.

*link*
http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=25

Jack

pre 17 godina

This does not surprise me at all. Maybe Ahtisaari will also suggest some sort of memorial for the Waffen SS Handzar Division in Bosnia http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/handzar.htm ) and the Waffen SS Skanderbeg Division in Kosovo ( http://www.kosovo.net/skenderbeyss.html ).

Victor

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!

Princip, UK

pre 17 godina

Thanks Obilic,

it is clear that Athisarri has acted in a non partial manner and in some respects this has backfired on the US - the fact that Athisarri was so impartial ensured that Serbia was not taken for a ride. They stood firm and can still stand by their legal and principled arguments ensuring that there will never be a 2nd Albania - well unless Finland wants to create one fair enough.

Maybe there will be a unified all party position spelling out once and for all the objection to Athisarri and his proposal.

Nick

pre 17 godina

Obilic,

Serbian concentration camps for jews and roma Sajmište and Banjica.

Under General Nedić, Belgrade was declared to be Judenfrei in 1942.

During the nazi occupation of this part of Europe, many pupet states were established and many people collaborated with the germans, including some serbian centik bands.

The Fins had two choices, either side with the germans or with the Russians, and considering their history with the Russians you can not blame them for prefering the germans.

You cant judge a whole nation by a 4 year period. The fins are one of the most peaceful people in Europe and to label them nazi is not only false but also totally ignorant.

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

Obilic is trying to discredit Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, when he should analyse Milosevic's behavior inj Kosovo in 1989. Milosevic is the one responsible fro what is happening today in the Balkans, in Kosovo, not Finland, not Martti Ahtisaari, not Ceku!
(Victor, 3 February 2007, 18:57)

How is Milosevic responsible? He has not even been convicted guilty in Absentia form the ICTY Kangaroo court? Even the prosecutor Del Ponte admired him for his defense.

As for the break up of Yugoslavia, it was encouraged by Bosnian-Muslim fanatices, and the right wing arm of Franjo Tudjaman's governent which included heavy support from Nazi Ustasha supporters.

????

pre 17 godina

B92 two days ago:

Serbian Jews: "Serbia is the only country in Europe not to ensure the restitution of stolen Jewish property."

“Nothing has been done on the issue, even when there was a chance”, Aca Singer, president of the Union of Jewish Communities, told Novi Sad daily Dnevnik. He reminded that Jews in Serbia were robbed of their property from 1941 to 1944, under the regime of Milan Nedić, who collaborated with Nazi German occupation forces in Serbia.


-----------
I have a guiding principal: The truth is the opposite of what Kostunica says. Remember this.

Tom

pre 17 godina

What Obilic is writing about is, firstly, a good example of an opinion that is based on something else than any reason. Secondly, it shows equally well that anything else but looking oneself in the mirror seems to suit people like Obilic. Why try to solve problems when you can always put the blame on others? I think we should seriously study how the Swedish royalties during decades have been contributing to the present Kosovo crisis! And what about Princess Diana? She must have some guilt in this also. I would likewise like to question the morale of Donald Duck! The guys doesn't wear any trousers so he must have played a part in developments around Kosovo!

konstantin gregovic

pre 17 godina

The EU should forgive all of Serbia's debt as payment for a more cooperative stance towards Kosovo's eventual status which is going to be finalized probably in 10 years' time.Money TALKS/BS walks.
(luciano, 3 February 2007, 23:15)

Agreed.

J.S.

pre 17 godina

Serbia will never again return to one person rule, and if this is obvious to me who is one of the slowest of learners, then it is obvious to everyone.

No person is the sole repository of all wisdom, knowledge, judgement or even good character. Sometimes I would even dare to pressume that I could be, but the stark reality is that I am fallible even as we all are fallible, and 250 minds are always better than one.

This is why I am completely convinced that Serbia will always be a Parliamentary Democracy, and will never again return to one person rule.

With this in mind, the International Buisness Community can have full confidence that they can safely and wisely invest their money in Serbia and received high profits for their wise decision.

In my opinion, Serbia should help the International Buisness Community to have such strong confidence with it's guarantee that they will only default on any monies owed to the March 1999 NATO countries, and then borrow the equivalent money from different sources and invest this money in the infrastucture that the wise Buinesses that come to Serbia will need to maximize their profits. Serbia will most definitely honour their new loan repayments because even tough the Serbian people are not perfect, they are honest. The Serbian people are not theives, and they will default only on the March 1999 NATO countries for two very good reasons. Firstly, it will be good for the economy, and secondly it is viewed as partial compensation. Serbia knows that the wise investors do not believe everything they read in the Western Media. If any CEO does believe everything that is written in the Western Media, then I pitty not only him but especially his Shareholders for have put their trust in him to have intelligence. and Serbia does not need such people, because we are only a small nation, and we do not need every Buisnessperson to come to Serbia , but only wise ones.

olli

pre 17 godina

Obilic, and your merry followers Princip and konstantin gregovic,

Your argumentation, beside being a show piece of self-abusing ignorance, also functions as an example why Serbia keeps on losing its cases both on Balkan and international stage.

ahlich

pre 17 godina

Obilic:

Any 15 minutes of crossing data and checking facts on the web could have spared you of the humiliation.
Reality rarely present itself in a black and white, binary message. The balkans are a pretty good example of that.
There's no such thing as an innocent nation and certainly not during the second world war. The adjective innocent should refer exclusively to the people(s) and in this case we can point out the Jews, but we should also mention all other such as Roma, Russians and so on. Including the German people themselves (is it wrong to remember the non-Jewish German that died? They did put Adolf Hitler in the seat of power... Ignorance is only second to Deceit. Not long ago the president of the European Parliament referred to the nordic countries societies as not having suffered with the second war. The comment caused indignation and outrage among the parliament representatives of those countries. Like you, Obilic, Mr Borrel should have checked his facts before allowing himself to articulate an uninformed speech. During 90's conflicts in the ex-jugoslavija, I always asked people to check their facts before jumping into conclusions and decide that these are the good guys and these other are the bad guys.
If anything, the Serbs can complain more than any other people of the former federation of being portrayed constantly as the wrong doers.
A few ideas about Finland: Neither the finish state or the soldiers themselves volunteer to the SS ranks: Germany demanded so as part of the payment for helping out with the Karelia issue.. Your words suggest that Finland was actually eager to send troops to join the SS and that is why it signed a pact with the third reich... Any 6 year old would laugh of that idea were it not such a delicate matter. Finland made a deal with Germany because it had too - It was the only way of keeping Russia at large. Finland used Germany while refusing to help invade Saint Petersburg and all throughout the war years it received Jew refugees from Germany and other countries. Actually there were jews serving on the finnish army...
The goals do not justify the means and bashing one of the most tolerant and equal societies in Europe just to try to reach Ahtisaari's neck is pitiful to say the least.
The question you should have asked is: Why did Finland helped the nazis on Germany eastern border sending hundreds of thousands of men when their proclaimed goals were only to secure finnish territorial integrity? 1200 kids that the SS recruited for their ranks are irrelevant compared to that. U, of course you have this But that, of course, is irrelevant to you. Your agenda is to create a black and white world on which the statement "either you are with us or against us", becomes the ruling law. The "high representative" plan is weak but hardly a surprise and an it is becoming obvious to more and more observers that Kosovo will achieve its albanian aspiration sooner or later. Instead of attacking Ahtisaari you should be questioning all the politicians that have their seat in NATO, EU and alikes and start asking if Kosovo will create a precedent for other aspiring nations namely: Scotland, Chechnia, Corsica, The Basque country and Catalunia, to name a few...