Ahtisaari says proposal fair and balanced

Dear All,
I am deeply persuaded that there is no room for restoring Serbian authority over Kosovo.
That said we cannot let the Serbian/christian heritage in Kosovo be destroyed.
As an Italian, I am proud that our troops right now are protecting the holyest Serbian sites in Kosovo and that the Italian Army and Carabinieri work is the only guarantee for the Serbian of not being wiped out in the region.
In March 2004 the intervention of Carabinieri had been indispensable to stop Albanian uprising.
The holy and historical sites continuous protection, guaranteed by the International community and paid for 1/3 by Belgrade, a 1/3 by Pristina and a 1/3 by ONU, is the only thing Serbia could claim.
When Serbian people claim the respect of international borders based on international right, do not realize that another essential principle is the respect of the will of the people to self-determination.
Actually the International Law is only the result of a balance of the different, and often opposed, interests of the main powers of the world.
The International Law is not something sacred coming from Heaven.
The International Law is not based on common values since it is the outcome of different civilizations that do not share the same idea of the human being.
That is why ONU's decisions are often inconsistent and tolerate the existence of brutal dictatorships as Nort Korea, amongst others.
The reality is that Kosovo is already independent and that we must prevent the abuses of the winner (K-Albanians) against the loser (Serbians).

By far the best solution to our problem:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?land

in short:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_?land

Read carefully, with a thought.

And fight and win the grip that both culture and history have of you. One main issue here is that neither Serbs nor Albanians consider compromising as a virtue. But as a quality belonging only to the weak and losers.

massimo: do you extend the same rigts to republika srpska?

Dear massimo

the 3 northern municipalities of Kosovo are not under Albanian control. So your take about Kosovo being de facto independent do not apply to these areas.

My feeling is that if independence is declared for Kosovo, all K-Serbs will go to the north. The Serb majority there will then become solidified. De facto partition will occur, eventually leading to de jure partition.

To massimo - this is by no means a done deal. All over the world there are areas, regions, provinces where you will be told that it is more or less independent anyway. But the feeling of being independent is not enshrined in law, where as the sovereignty of land is. Taking 10% of another nation's territory just because you can, is still theft. Being held ransom to threats of violence is something that would undermine the UN and Nato to such a point that it would lose its last threads of credibility. All major European wars have started in the Balkans. Using the KLA as a land army and now delivering blood money as payment is not the way for Europe to go. I'm sure that you'll agree we all want a stable peaceful Europe, but this is not the way.

Olli,

I think you might find that such a compromise would be accpetable to the Serbian govt. I tried to open this before but could not but thanks for the second link. Anyone else unsure it is an Alund (A with a circle -nordic text). This indeed would be a win-win but form the comments sent I would hope all could remain calm if this Finnish ex-President borrows a solution that Finland has. Why did he wait if this is inline with his proposal. We'll ets just wait and see.

Dear fellow readers and writers,

excuse me, my earlier posting had bad web site address. This is the right one:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aland

Look especially chapter Politics.

massimo, let us assume it is a;ready indep sas you say. what about the likelihood that this statelet never achieves viability. one can speak of conditional independence as much as one wants... but it doesn't make the place viable. they simply do not have enough to export and what they can export is reliant upon the kindness of strangers. finally, when caluculatingthis one should not underestimate the potential for the population to simply screw things up out of incompetence and plain old corruption (there is a long track record of this). i am absolutely convinced that the statelet will never make it to independence because it is not economically viable. the best gift to serbia would be decentralization to the max so it can easily annex enclaves when status talks re-emerge in the future and the place is partitioned. talk of viability is really laughable. dont listen to me... the place speaks for itself.

I think it's clear that Kosovo is going to win independence now. I understand all solicitudes from serbian side and others about the serb minority in Kosova and also for churches and other religious buildings, but if you have a critic sight on this issue serb government is responsible for holding high the level of ethnic tensions among Kosovo. I thought that after Milosheviq is gone someone from serb gv. is going to apologize for the crimes done in Kosova and for all that pressure we had during Milosheviq regime. We albanians know to forgive, but you are not calling to forgive you. So consistency is yours however i don't believe there will have any sign of revanche after we get independence. We are different and our history doesn't know any thing like Krusha, Srebrenica or Vukovar.

Shukri - What about the SS Division Skenderberg???!!

Shukri Gashi,

I don't think any Serb is not sorry for loss of innocent lives. I a Serb am sorry for the loss of innocent lives be it Serbian, Albanian Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, African, Arab, etc...However you cannot expect a direct apology from the government. As the Serbs don't expect an apology from Albanians in Serbian Kosovo. Similarly the prime minister of Australia refuses to apologise to the indigenous aboriginies for something that happened before him. However he is sorry. There is a diff. What are you after and what do you expect will come of it??

Today the EU will vote a resolution supporting the Indebendence.

You don't have to accept nor agree, and you are surly allowed to celebrate the Kosovo/a independence as a serbian victory. In the end of the day all you Serbs celebrate are the battle you've lost

Kate

“Taking 10% of another nation's territory just because you can, is still theft”

No Kate was not 10% but 49%, 258 000 km2 was taken from Bosnia, just 10 years ago just because you could. Accomplished methods very cruel.
In Kosova Thanks to NATO, US and its allies you failed.
Now NATO, US and its allies decides, not you.
They will do what it suits them, which is stability in the Balkans.

Noel:

What Serbs celebrate in defeat is apparently far greater than you can comprehend. in doing so serbs celebrate the eternal notion of the soul.

you know, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... scotland wearies of you.

As for independence it is declared in the UN... not the halls of brussels. attempts to forge it outside the UN face the consequences i have listed many times.

i am certain that the statelet will receive a much-watered down version of what will soon be proposed. you predict far too much fair weather.

Femi - I am the 'Allies' - why would you assume I am Serbian. Not everyone in the UK, US and other Nato countries were in favour of the attack on Serbia - quite the opposite. Bosnia was a terrible vicious cruel civil war which I would never underplay. The death of any civilian is terrible, including those who died in Kosovo. But I still say that Kosovo belongs legally to Serbia and taking the land is theft, just as attacking Serbia was a form of state terrorism. Unfortunately, I don't have any say in our 'democracy'.

I say
-Southern france, north spain to the Basques
-Full independence to scotland/wales/n.ireland
-Freedom to the greeks of north epirus
- Greeks of south italy


or....

in other words
there ARE EXCUSES TO
DIVIDE ANY MODERN COUNTRY
(except maybe japan).

Wrong about Japan
the Ainu could ask for independence as the descendants of the people who first settled the islands.
The are charactersied by curly hair and a different complexion that the dominant population
Actually they have been opressed as well, but who gives a damn when Japan is a global economic leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Dears, I do not know about Serbia in which centuries is Living. Serbia is walking with closed eyes, thay do not chek where they put they foot. Thay do not want to see tha reality. They do not want to see what happened behind and they do not want to see what will be the future. I have an appeal to Serbian People: OPEN YOUR EYES, do not dream, we are living in 21 Centure, think about your children future. You have lost Kosova forever, forever, forever.

to Blag:
I would apply the same principle for Republika Serpska also (even if that entity is the outcome of ethnic cleansing) but I do not think that such a solution could be agreed internationally.
To Achilleas:
where is an ethnic Greek community in southern Italy claiming independence?

How can be Serbs and the others who support them such ignorant in face of what happend to Albanians and Kosova in a past and in a face of reality of last 10 years in Kosova?! Concerning to cultural heritage - for example, Turkey can not be different than Turkey just because of cultural heritage it has... So, will of 95% of ex-YU subject must and will be respected...

To Kate:
I do not know how you support your statements.
How can you say that the majority of NATO countries people opposed the 1999 intervention against Serbia? As far as I know it is the opposite of what you say since tha majority of the people identified Serbia with Milosevic regime.
Again, when you affirm that you have no say in your democracy means that you do not participate in free elections? Or, maybe, you think that democracy is that you decide for all the other people?

Noel, I think you are only too aware the CoE have little jursidiction and and hold little sway on EU foreign policy which is something that will formed as a consensus by indivdual nations.

Femi, the fact regarding the situation of land ownership in Bsonia is that the Serbian population actually owned 64% of the land but I guess you have little knowledege regarding the importance of Property Rights and it's link with Economic Development. It might surprise you that while any question mark hangs over property rights in Kosovo & Metohija there will be little economic development as it has done since 1999 and will be if there is any unilateral or disputed conditional independence.

To Massimo - around 40% of people in Britain were against the bombing in 1999.
There were also sizeable oppositions in other European countries (as I am sure you will know, being Italian).
My statement about democracy (or lack of) is based on the fact that Blair follows US policy, and that in the UK there was no vote to go to war in parliament anyway (in fact he went out of the way to say that it was 'not a war' even though they introduced wartime restrictions on the press).
His government is demeaning my country internationally and domestically. They have helped to turn war into some sort of warped video game backed by an evangelistic crusade which has no place in the world of politics.
I am sure that millions of Europeans now agree with these sentiments.

Noel, I guess you might be only too aware that the UK is facing local elections in Scotland. Such a pro-independence stance is now starting to impact on the internal politics of the UK and the possible dissolution of the UK.
All pro-independence should read and as is the UK able to continue with a foreign policy that calls its own stat into question? The article in the Guardian yesterday titled - Kosovo breakaway could raise Scot Nats' hopes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,,1996356,00.html

I would suggest that all look at the compromise that Olli had posted earlier - it might be that Athisarri will have had a solution in mind even beofre any discussions. For those who can't follow Olli's link put in wikepedia Finland (Athisarri's home state) and follow the link for Alund. Let's just wait and see what he proposes - I think he has many solutions and behind closed doors the contact group will choose the one that they agree on and all of us will never know.

I have just one question to you anti independence camp. Why serbs with guns and blood had right to create Republika Serpska, we all know it was never figured in the map before 1995, and we Kosovars with democratic tools can't do it in Kosovo. Give me a direct answer please.

RE: Rebuplika Srpska

Republika Srpska was created as a compromise at the Dayton Accords even though most of the Serbian Popululation wanted to Stay within the federation of Yugoslavia.

My question is why Bosnia/Herzegovina continues to exist as an entity supported by the European Community but Yugoslavia does not? Yugoslavia is just a mini-Bosnia.

Kosovo never had republic status within Yugoslavia, it was an autonomy under Serbia and did not have the same republic status as the Republic of Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Slovenia. In fact, the initial creation of Yugoslavia was called the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, Tito created the other artificial regions to satisfy his appetite to expand his Balkan kingdom by trying to engulf Bulgaria, Northern Greece and yes, even Albania.

Shukri,

are you saying that Republika Srpska is Independent? I think you will find that it is not - dayton peace process created the Bosnian status as it is today. Let me also illuminate you to the fact that the first shots in Bosnia were directed at a Serbian weddding not by Serbs!!! The tragic events that followed in this civil-war lasting 3 years 92-95, that involved 3 seperate conflicts Serbs vs Croat & Muslims, Croats Vs Muslims and Muslim (Abdic) vs Muslim (Izetbegovic) as researched by the ICTY gave numbers of killed civilian Muslims
and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian
Serbs was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think
close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly
Bosnian Muslims. On the Serb side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a
bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croat soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war.
Read that again and understand the figures bear out that show all sides lost and all sides were responsible for the tradegy.

Regarding Kosovo & Metohija 1244 reconfirmed the territorial integrity of Serbia so unless there is a new resolution in the UN you will have to live with it!!!

We are different and our history doesn't know any thing like Krusha, Srebrenica or Vukovar.
(Shukri Gashi, 24 January 2007, 13:30)

1900-1912-Albanians together with Ottoman Turks fought against Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania who finally broke five hundred years of Ottoman occupation.

(2) During WWI, Albania denies access to the retreating Serbian Army from Austro-Hungaria, Germany and Bulgaria. In fact, the Albanian hordes attacked and ravaged the Serbian army as they finally reached the island of Kerkira (Corfu) under Greek protection.

(3) The Albanians were firmly behind the Nazi's during WWII.


Where did the Serbs Go?

Before the Civil War-

Serb or declared Yugoslav

Srebrenica-35% Serb/Yugoslav
Mostar-18% Serb/Yugoslav
Sarajevo-30% Serb/Yugoslav
Krajina-12% Serb/Yugoslav
Kosovo-10% Serb/Yugoslav

Now

Srebrenica-

Princip, The CoE resolution is very significant step towards the independence. that'll awake ppl such as yourself and Blag to the fact that the EU and the US are determined to finish this chapter.

Kate, the overwhelming majority of ppl in the UK and NATO supported the 1999 Bombing. That was the best thing the Alliance ever did since its formation..

As per Scots they are free to decide whatever they want, and the English will be very happy to congratulate them if they were to choose independence.

Kosovo/a must be recognised as an independent state ASAP.

to Kate

I'm really curious to know how you come at the conclusion that Kosova belongs legally to Serbia? Do you know any of the Kosova history of 20th century. Can you argue the legal rights of Serbia over Kosova? Do you know that not a single Albanian of Kosova had in modern history the Serbian Citizenship? Being a constitutional part of ex-Yugoslavia, Kosova has the same right to become independent as the other parts that constituted it. And the fact that Serbs oppose it doesn't make it right. They opposed fiercely the independence of other ex parts of Yugoslavia too. And that should make you think. Why no other Balkan Slav nation wants to stay together with them any longer. Not even people that speak the same language and share with them their whole history. Croats, Monte Negrin, Slovenes. These are stuff better to be analyzed not by you, but Serbs themselves. And then they will understand that nobody is taking away from them their "divine right" of ownership over the holy land of Kosova, but is their villainous way of treating their neighbors that will relapse always to them. As for all the other good people in this forum I do hope they understand the moral base of the demand of Albanians in Kosova to live peacefully and independent at their own homes.

UN resolution 1244 guarantees the territorial integrity of Kosovo under Serbia, nothing can change no matter.

Whether the Atasari proposal is "supervised" independance or "substantial" autonomy, Belgrade must be in agreement and signatory or de-facto Kosovo in paper remains sovereign under Serbia.

The question again is which Serbian politician will cave in and sell Kosovo for the unsure promise of EU candidacy. Kostunica entire election platform was based on the protection of the consitution and sovereignty of Kosovo.

As for the Kosovo Albanians, independance is an oxymoron, it should be called dependance.

I have never found Republika Serpska in the older maps. If it was result of Dayton agreement Independent Kosovo will be result of an another agreement of major powers and Kosovars. You killed 8000 muslims in Srebrenica to create it, we didn't kill no any (i supoze you will give numeral of serbs killed but it is not true because you had superior army regarding ours).

English B92 part where Serbian refugees describes Serbia like paradise which is more powerful, richest, etc! And Serbian B92 part of Serbia where Serbian people from Serbia said that Serbia is non-democratic, criminal state, poor, mafia is governing them, many war fugitives, civil killers child raper’s etc.
As a neighbor to whom I should believe to Serbian refugees who lives all a round the world in English side of this site or to Serbian people who lives in Serbia?
2 February 2007 all Serbian refugees are welcome in the Newest European Country Dardania
PS not those Serbs who committed crimes in Kosova only those Serbs who was victims of Serbian Nationalist Madness.

"Let me also illuminate you to the fact that the first shots in Bosnia were directed at a Serbian weddding not by Serbs!!!"

Intersting thought Princip but not entirely illuminating. If we are to regard your use of 'Bosnia' as being the shortened version of 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' then we must consider the 'first shots' as having been fired at least as early as the JNA attack on Ravno in October 1991...

shukri, i would be pleased to answer your question. here is the justification for BiH serb resistance:

1. there were significant international treaties recognizing BiH as a territory of sovereign yugoslavia, but they were disregarded by washington in its unilateral move made outside of the parameters of the UN.

2. the laws of sovereign yugoslavia disallowed succession unless certain steps were followed. sarajevo disregarded those laws as did washington who urged them to disregard. again outside of the UN.

3. bosnia chose the path of violent succession OUTSIDE OF THE UN supported by an out-of-control superpower when 100% of serbs did not wish to go. again... outside of the UN.

today (as was predicted back then), the majority of the population of bosnia has many times stated that it wishes to break away to either croatia or serbia... yet is forced to remain... by the UN.

48.0% Muslim
37.1% Serb
14.3% Croat
00.6% Other
------------
100%

there you have your answers.... now some questions of my own:

1. why is multi-culturalism destroyed in yugoslavia, but made a god in bosnia?

2. why is every one of these new countries homogenous... and only serbia heterogenous?

3. why is one rule used to justify bosnia... and then disregarded in kosovo and vice versa?

4. why is the UN the law of the world only when the US can achieve its goals thru it... but not the law of the world when the US cannot achieve its goals thru it?

5. why does tony blair threaten the scottish people when a movement toward indep has arisen? and do you support the scots in their indep movement? do you support srpska in its indep movement?

if you do not support srpska... do you really think you can contain economically ascendant S as it grows to dominate this pathetic little region we all occupy?

either win-win or we deliberately scuttle kosovo's viability... and break frankenstein bosnia.

weakened washington wearies from all its enforced commitments and steadily mounting problems. make no mistake... this is a superpower in international trouble. no more selective rules. Unless win-win, serbia will extract it's % one way or the other. All this depends upon serb good will. That good will shall definitively end should washington attempt unilateral recognition outside of the UN.

the continuing fact of all these silly, silly independences is that they have produced economically weak states (some of which are not even viable). only slovenia, croatia, and serbia have the capacity for viability. the remaining entities will one day dissolve and be absorbed by other entities. All of these entities have very severe and systemically profound economic difficulties. There is a reason they were never independent in 1000 yrs... It is because they were never viable in all that time.

My dear Serbian friends! Why don't you stop with partition threats?

If Serbia is asking other minorities within Serbia to participate in its elections and institutions, why can't Kosovo Albanians expect the same from the Kosovo Serbs.

The fact is that Serbs always want to rule others, but never be ruled, and that alone has given birth to wars, partition of Bosnia and now you are all talking about partition of Kosovo.

Partition will have a lot more negative effects in Balkans then Independence itself.

This strategy will ultimately inspire Albanians from Macedonia, Presevo valley, and Montenegro to counter declare independence of their own.

You'll have states the size of Lihtenstein all over Ballkans, and saldly to say without any viable means of survivel.

With all due respect, the strategic ideas some of you are proposing are very destructive to peace and prosperity in Ballkans.

Kosovo Albanian's situation is very identical to Israels. Fundamental Arabic states will never accept our struggle for survival and it appears that fundamental Serbs won't accept Kosovars struggle for survival either.

But life has to continue and I hope Kosovo Serbs realize that it's in their best interest to join the institutions ran by EU, and if EU doesn't meet their economical and social needs better than Serbia did, then, they could talk of partition.

"ou will never know how it will be, unless, you give the process a chance."

Peace for both Serbs and Albanian!

Isaac Lehmanski

To Noel:

the last time i checked the 3 points below were the issues being discussed.

1. legal mechanism please!

2. viability w/o serbian diplomatic recognition and prolonged serbian legal challenge

3. precedent... with the first effects felt in bosnia and then in the caucaus

17 coe's and 18 washington's each threatening at their full capacity will not force serbia to play ball on this. we have a document that legally gaurantees this as serbian territory. break that document and expect consequences.

Princip,
So what you saying is that you will accept in peace any resolution coming from UN even if it is Independece for Kosova???
Kate,
According to you, its not OK to take away 10% of the serbian territory, but it was OK to take away 25% of the Albania's territory on 1913. Is that right?

@Shukri..

You're way off base, and your ignorance only inflames people..

Put away your 19th century Austro-Hungarian revisionistic book please. It was bad enough that the Croats were raised with it.
"Why serbs with guns and blood had right to create Republika Serpska, we all know it was never figured in the map before 1995, and we Kosovars with democratic tools can't do it in Kosovo."

Well it WAS..Unfortunately Bosnian Serb leadership didn't know when to quit, and eventually lost Belgrade's backing..

Let me ask YOU!!!
If Serbs in Bosnia didn't stand up, what would they be living in right now??
Parliamentarians were warned (by Karadzic himself), that war would be bloody, and they weren't ready for it. Begging wasn't enough i guess.

Bosnia isn't black and white.
All sides sold arms to each other, profited, and killed one another. It was very regonalized, and is quite different than Kosovo was.

Enough with the history lessons please, and stick to the articles...

Noel:

"Kate, the overwhelming majority of ppl in the UK and NATO supported the 1999 Bombing."

No, they did not. A surprising number were against it, which was incredible seeing as the information coming out from Downing Street and the press under a 'D Notice' was totally one-sided. I have never witnessed such warmongering by ill-educated politicians who didn't even know basic facts. To quell argument, anyone who spoke out against them was treated like a genocidal murderer. Ironic really.

"That was the best thing the Alliance ever did since its formation."

It was totally illegal and did not happen within the UN Charter or any convention of war drawn up and previously valued. Under any serious discussion, it is obvious that diplomacy had not been exhausted.

"As per Scots they are free to decide whatever they want, and the English will be very happy to congratulate them if they were to choose independence."

I agree, but they are a self-contained nation of Scottish people which even has its own legal system. Not a province within England with a majority population from another ethnicity altogether.

POOR NOEL

24.1.2007 16:23

Davis: Council of Europe defends the territorial integrity of its member-states

Council of Europe Secretary General Terry Davis expressed in Strasbourg doubt in the justification of a possible imposed decision to the status of Kosovo-Metohija, as it would not be in line with the accepted principle of respect for the territorial integrity of states. As a secretary general, I support the territorial integrity of Council of Europe member-states until the UN decides otherwise, he emphasized at a breakfast with the press during the sitting of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly.

RE: Srebrenica

Nasir Oric killed hundreds of Serbs in and around Srebrinica and was acquited by the Hague Trbunal, very simmiliar to the other Albanian terrorist Agim Ceku.

Illumination of the Truth

Tito died in 1980, the Yugoslaia federation adopted a rotating presidency in hopes of keeping the federation together.

However, there continue to be large push of a decentralized central government(can't happen in a communist government)

Slobodan Milosevic rose through the ranks of the Serbian Communist Party and actually enforced more liberal socialist ideals including adoption of a free market model for small business. Initially, the US was supportive of the new leap towards more democratic ideals.

Croatia and Slovenian seperatists emerged and started smuggling arms from the former East Germany through Spiegel. The uprising were planed with the full intention of creating a revolution in Yugoslavia which happened.

If the JNA attacked in October 1991, it would have been under the decision of Ante-Markovic, the Croatian Vice President at that time of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The Highest ranking JNA General at that time was Kadijevic, half Slovenian, Half Croatian.

"2 February 2007 all Serbian refugees are welcome in the Newest European Country Dardania
PS not those Serbs who committed crimes in Kosova only those Serbs who was victims of Serbian Nationalist Madness."
I would like to comment on this as it seems some Albanians make this sort of comment on a regular basis, basically trying to proclaim who has a right to live in Kosovo and who does not. In a true democracy it is not up to the government to determine who is worthy of being a citizen and who is not. While I agree that those Serbs from Kosovo who committed criminal acts should be punished, once they have served their terms and repaid their debt to society, they have a fundamental right to return to their homes, just as everyone has a fundamental right to return to their homes. You can not place conditions on residency like that, and not allow the other side the same consideration. Some Albanians committed crimes as well, should they be excluded forever even after serving their time?
In essence these sorts of comments are supportive of ethnic cleansing and should be condemned by all sides.
I am truly sorry for the suffering on all sides. I truly believe that if a different approach had been taken, that things would be completely different.
I still stand by my comments that there are absolutely no differences between the mindsets of the nationalist Albanians and the nationalist Serbs. Clearly, like or not, Serbs and Albanians are nearly identical, and I'm willing to bet future DNA evidence will show a close relation between the two races, particularly between Montenegrins and Albanians.
We have much more in common with one another then we do with the rest of Europe. We have the exact same fears, concerns, and desires, and have the same problems with our populations being divided over a multiple of countries.
Its astounding to me that we haven't tried at all to work together to resolve our differences, and that many who post here seem to indicate that if all else fails, that Kosovars will resort to violence to get independence. No one, on either side made any kind of real attempt to come up with a compromise, nor has any attempt been made to protect the rights of minorities in the region.
I personally believe that a solution that is better for both sides can be found, but I do not believe the people of the region are ready for it yet.
I predict that the International Community will make fine sounding speeches about Kosovo and will take steps in the direction towards independence, but in reality it will only be a delaying tactic in order to avoid making the tough decisions that the European Community needs to make in order to resolve this issue. I think for now, it will remain in a sorta limbo state, similar to the status of Bosnia, which remains far behind in joining the EU and is just waiting for a spark to set it off at some future date. I also predict that after a few years of this, the Albanians will just declare independence and it will be recognized by enough countries that it gets pushed through at the UN. This tactic worked well for Croatia, a country the UN declared was unfit for independence because of their record in dealing with the rights of minorities.
However, this type of solution would require waiting for the right moment in time to do so, and with Russia looking for an excuse to exert its power in Europe again, clearly now is not the time and would only further the divisions in the EU and the world.
I also believe a situation like this is not in the best interests of the Albanians, or the Serbs. A solution like this would have a negative effect on those independence movements in Macedonia, Montenegro, and South Serbia (There's enough websites devoted to these causes that I believe they have support from a significant enough portion of the population). However, by unilaterally voting for Independence, you will be abandoning your Albanians brothers in the other countries in which they live and actually hurting their chances of independence, thus potentially creating unneeded divisions of interest. In addition, you will be damaging your chances of joining with Albania proper. Whether you like it or not, having two Albanian countries in Europe will only cause tensions in your population. If you think you will never have differences, one only need look at the current situation with Montenegro and Serbia to see it is in fact easy to create divisions of interest between two seemingly irrsepartible peoples. Given the tradition of blood feuds in Albanian culture, and the fact that already there are two separate ethnic classes of Albanians, this is a very real possibility, like it or not.
I suggest a real attempt at compromise be undertaken at this point. I suggest making it into a broader issue of the rights of both Serbs and Albanians in all those countries in which they live. Clearly in this point we have similar complaints. That could be the focal point in finding a common goal. Regardless of the outcome of the status talks, lines of communication and integration between our two countries is essential for the success of the region as a whole.
Those of you who are willing to lay down your lives for symbolic control of a region that will someday be just a small state in a United Europe are selling out future generations of both our people's. Its going to be so unimportant at that point in time as to make all these issues seem insane. Can you imagine Americans fighting over whether they are part of the State of California or Nevada? Sounds rather silly doesn't it?
So my advice to those who proclaim they are willing to die for this cause, do not destroy the economic stability of future generations of the region for an ideal that is already at this time completely outdated.
Nation States are dead, globalization is here. Western Europe will need your children to keep their population from stagnating and soon enough, all the countries of Europe will have a mixed population. The next generation or two will be difficult, with nationalism in its dying throws and the possibility of violence as a means to prevent it. However, history has shown that trying to impede such new notions in society and culture always meet with failure.
Just ask yourselves how you would like it to roll out. Do you want a massacre like what happened in France when they overthrew their Royalty, or would you like a peaceful progression like you had in England. In the end, it doesn't really matter, the final results will be the same no matter what.

RE: UN Resolution 1244-Annex I

Ahitiassari's plan cannot supercede UN resolution 1244 without a signature from the Serbian Government.

A reminder to all who seems to forget that UN resolution 1244 is law and binding. Please take note of maintaining the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia which is now part of the Serbian Constitution.

"A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for a substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of the KLA;"

Do the albanians contributing to the message board not read the news from other sites? The Russians have guaranteed a veto of any independence resolution that Serbia does not agree with. There are also EU states against independence for Kosovo. With the US being your only firm supporter, and now finding out that going it alone does not work, how will you get your independence? The albanian papers can say that you will get independence. Ahtisaari can also write a book about what should happen in Kosovo, but that doesn't mean that Kosovo will become independent. It takes the entire Security Council, which won't happen, to obtain your independence. So will someone please explain why they STILL think that independence is going to happen? And please don't use the excuse that Russia will be bought off.

International law is based on precedents like any other type of law.

If Kosovo is allowed independance contrary to resolution 1244 and without Serbia's signature, then indeed this is theft and a precedent.

This precedent will allow other nations to seek "self deternmination" and "independance" without adherance to any sovereign nations wish.

@ Olli,

as far as I'm concerned, there have been different moves in Aland for independence or union with Sweden (let us remeber also that Finnish army and police went never in Aland to burn down the homes of the locals and chase them off the islands. Also, the Alanders are some tens k, not 2 millions, it would have been really different then). The Alanders have decided, democratically, to stay with Finland (they have everything to win from it). That has been very fair, cool-headed, calm and rational, typically Scandinavian-style and of course high-prised.

Should it apply to the Kosovars also? Let them decide for themselves either to stay with Serbia or anything else. That would be equally fair.

Ardian hasn't a clue about who lives around him. Did anybody else read his comments???

Alexander_James, I think the case you highlight illuminates the collapse of Yugoslavia as a whole at the time and is not specific to BiH civil war of 92-95 which I refered to specifically. But it does create the whole set of questions as to Who Was actually doing What to Whom, When and Why.

Given that you point out Ravno Oct. 91 and the specifics are that the JNA (Yugoslav National Army) was a state institution of which BiH was a consituent and its representative at the time - Alija Izetbegovic at the time is quoted as saying "This is not our war" and that this was action carried out by the multiethnic yugoslav army of the multiethnic State of Yugoslavia I would tend to suggest that the case you illuminate is ambiguous to the accepted time frame of the BiH civil war of 92-95.

True there are various interpretations but at that point the republic of BiH was an integral part of Yugoslavia as was Slovenia and Croatia. Only between December 19 and December 23, did several European countries, including Germany, Sweden and Italy announced their recognition of Croatia's (and Slovenia's) independence. The European Union as a whole recognized the independence of the two breakaway republics on January 15, 1992. So it is very ambiguous to state that Serbs were responsible for that action as part of a civil war in BiH - my take would be that Ravno was initiated and carried out as part of the operations of a JNA that at the time was acting in what they believed to be the interest of the Yugoslav state and not specific to the BiH civil war 92-95 between the 3 ethnic groups within BiH alone as is evident by Izetbegovic's quote at the time. You might recall that there was much debate and confusion on what to do with regards Yugoslavia as a whole. Where was the collective EU foreign policy at that time that could have offered alternatives to the pandora's box that followed unilateral recognition? I ask you to consider the following quote by Dorothy Thompson

"Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict -- alternatives to passive or aggressive responses, alternatives to violence"

and will bring the subject back to today's situation and lets hope that people can learn from earlier mistakes and not rush into any ill thought and short term solutions and satisfies the outside parties wishes but disregards the ones who will be caught up and lead to further conflicts in the long term.

konstantin gregovic,
your anti-Albanian historical claims are all false. I suggest you read some objective historical books, instead of taking for granted all the Serbian propaganda.

Fair & Balanced?

Perhaps to the Albanian side. I tend to agree that this is wishful thinking on Ahtisaari's side. The real reason that Delic is in Davos and the ICG pimps are clamoring for Tadic to form a 'democratic' or 'puppet' regime is to make their objectives easier.

But, until Kate Smith has sung and the ink is dry in the UN I will not believe a thing that is said or written. It is all political manuevering. This period means nothing.

BTW - I love the way the Albanian side makes up history as they go along. It is very humerous. Thank you for that.

I think forgiving Serbia's foreign debt of $18B,allowing 1M unemployed Serbs immediate access to EU labor markets,and allowing exclusive autonomy to the Serbian Orthodox Church for religious sites in Kosovo from now until eternity would be strong incentives the EU can immediately offer to get the Serbs to be more cooperative in the eyes of the EU.And of course a stationing of EU personnel in Kosovo from now until the end of time as a barrier between these 2 communities.Any thoughts?

These are the consequences of your actions Serbs. Everything from now on will be Fair & Balanced for you.

I congratulate the Kosovar Albanians on their independence.

I would agree to the commentator who said the albanian comments are in some way funny to read.

I find them both funny and sad. funny because of that totally autistic way of selective perception and sad, because they are lying to themselves by repeating those myths about the Illyrians on the one hand...and on the other hand at the same time try to tell the Serbs to let their "myths" go... they are simply not capable of analyzing themselves...but very mulishly selling their "analysis" of the political situation of world ( russia can´t do nothing about it, and big brother america will do everything for the Albanians etc. )

just one hint for Shukri:

the serbian army is still superior. I would rather be carefully thinking it over, if someone says publicly the serbian military is not capable of fighting a war. but that is not important, since this time it would be NATO stopping you.
and the serbian military fought against terrorists, the so called uck killed civilians, mostly Serbs, but also their own poeple.
thats something that the Albanians who are posting here , are quietly ignoring...

just let us see, who will be partying in a few weeks or months.
you will of course reply that this will be the Albanians, but...you are permanently overestimating yourself, thats your greatest problem.

konstantin gregovic: " ... taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ..."

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and as it always happens with the empires that end up in the trash bin of history, the accords that they have signed are null and void. When Serbia split from the Ottoman Empire, was it still upholding the trade and customs treaties that the Ottoman had signed with the Austrians? No, it wasn't, Austria had to renegotiate new treaties with the new state, because the Ottoman law was no longer valid. Here we have a similar situation. UN resolution 1244, referred to FRY, a country that ceased to exist. Serbia is a new independent state, and it can not inherit 1244 without it being explicitly amended by the UN. Because in the eyes of the international law, Serbia as an independent state and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are two different entities. Otherwise, UN could have simply renegotiated Kosova's status with Montenegro as an equal partner in FRY. Serbia can not claim Kosova, more than Montenegro can, because Serbia is not FRY and Serbia itself declared independence from FRY! And 1244 doesn't speak of Serbia or Montenegro as independent countries, but speaks of FRY.

Clearly, 1244 is outdated and out of commission the very moment that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist. Therein lies the legal need by UN to come up with a different resolution to replace 1244, because the death of FRY left Kosova in a legal limbo. So as the sole survivor, the UN is the only party that can change 1244, and no, it doesn't have to negotiate anything with Serbia, because Serbia as an entity came into being after 1244 was signed. UN is doing a great favor to Serbia, by allowing it to express its views, opinions and state its interests regarding the Serbian community in Kosova and the cultural monuments, and Serbia could have used its chance better by actively negotiating rather than stalling for time. Or accusing the mediator and stalling for time. Or demanding the restart of the negotiations all over again after each round so they could stall for time.

But legally, UN doesn't need Serbia's signature for anything, and that's why the decision will be taken and imposed by the UN.

Europe and the Great Powers obviously haven't learned the lesson(s) from previous experiences. The lack of understanding the West exhibits towards Balkan history and inter-ethnic relations is laughable and sad, or maybe this is all done for a purpose? To make a long story short, as far as Kosovo is concerned - if Kosovo is granted independence, Rep. Srpska should be granted indepedence as well. This is a cruel mathematical certainty. Those who point out that Serbs gained Rep. Srpska through violence and war should look no further than the present situation in Kosovo for a counter-example, and how exactly Albanians achieved ethnic dominance and ability to 'choose' indepedence. However, if Rep. Srpska is not extended the same opportunity and right to self-determination the above mathematical equation will be upset and as a result who knows what else awaits us in the next 50-100 years.

Dear all, I have been after reading all these comments I could not stay but post a message to all of you. Born and raised in Viti – Kosova, a region, which before 1999 was resided by 70% of its residents of the Albanian nationality and around 27% Serbians, I know how Serbian mind works when it comes to nationalism. They are so sure that they are the best and the earth does not hold anything better then them and they think they are so innocent, they even have this old popular saying of their won “SPEAK SERBIAN IF YOU WANT GOD TO UNDERSTAND YOU”!!!!!!!. One thing I really admire them for: the fact that they never give up!!! Win, loose, live, die, they are all the same to them, somehow they still manage to live out of reality. When it comes to propaganda, they transform their biggest losses into a victories by refusing the reality and believing what the want to believe happened. I lived in Kosova during the war, I had Serbian neighbors, and my family was well respected by both sides (Albanian and Serbian) because my father was a well-known doctor. After NATO started bombing, the respect that Serbians had towards any Albanian family was gone. I remember even the closest neighbors that know our family for more than 50 years telling my father leave Kosova or we are going to kill you and your family. It never happened though, we left the city but not Kosova. During that time, I witnessed with my own eyes Serbian military stealing what they could, burning and shooting at everything that was or belonged to Albanians just because they could. Anyone reading this can say that they were fighting “terrorists” KLA, but NO in the region where I lived, there was no KLA at all. After war some of these Serbians ex-neighbors were trying to act like nothing happened, and the ones that actually were, serving in Serbian military and police force were saying that they had done nothing but protect Serbian civilians. Protect from who? From Albanians worth, houses, cows, dogs etc?!! Maybe they though Albanian cows were part of KLA group and where going to fight Serbian civilians!! NO they failed to tell the truth, the truth that they were trying to make their old plan work, their plan for Kosovo was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. This is the plan that their leader (Sheshel) introduced long time ago and it means 1/3 of Kosova Albanians should be killed, 1/3 should be deported from Kosova, and 1/3 should be assimilated. Unfortunately, thanks to God, KLA, USA and most of European countries that plan failed. Today I live and study here in U.S.A. and sometime think what a nightmare for a country to have such bloody neighbors, How can they sleep at night knowing what they did? But hey, I said it in beginning they are good at cheating themselves from reality. This is not for all the Serbs, there should be there good Serbs but unfortunately, I never knew one.
These are just some reasons why Kosova should and is going to be independent, no neighboring country wants to live with Serbs anymore, they have proven themselves, not deeply hated by three nationalities: Albanians, Bosnians and Croatians, not one but three!! Serbs should ask this question to themselves, WHY HATED?...

To the Serbian Govt

I would just give them independence with conditions. Move all Serbs North of the Ibar to included all churches, grave site etc. Each land owner would be compensated for there property and given the opportunity to build homes of equal size north of the ibar. If the population north choose to unite with Serbia so be it. The albaninas will have there part and Serbia there part. That will be the peace. Live with it, that will be Marti suggestion to make everyone happy. But of course the albanians won't be happy nor will the Serbs but the EU will say either take it or go complain to someone else who cares.

To Ardian:
I doubt that there is some Albanian in Kosovo who doesn't have a Serbian citizenship, since all Kosovo Albanians are using Serbian passport. It's so true and very funny for me.
And it's so obvious that you don't know the history of "Kosova" since you can say something like that.
Independence, if any, will bring a very hard and painful waking up for many local people who believe that everything will be perfect the very next morning. So, we'll see what will happen...

Johnson,
I don't know where you were during the war in Kosova 1999, but it probably was not planet Earth. During this war the Serb military was confiscating all documents and passports from Albanians in Kosova to make it appear that Kosovar Albanians were not citizens of Yugoslavia, i.e. Serbia.
Now, who is it that does not know the history of Kosova?
Don't you feel a little bit silly.

to Tony:

I have never heard such a saying like you wrote there in capital letters. and believe me, I would know it, since I am a very well informed person in regard of history, traditon and culture of the serbian nation and to some parts of it´s neighbour nations.

it´s frightening how little you seem to know about the Serbs, a people you are claiming to have lived with...

Johnson,

Most of the Albanians in Kosovo/a have got the UNMIK travel document. Of course some of the K Albanians working abroad might still posses the Yugoslav passports but that is only for the purpose of travel arrangements.

Surly once Kosovo/a becomes independent all the K Albanians would be more than happy to have their own Passports.

Kosovo/a must be recognised as an independence state NOW.

Arben:
You obviously don't know what you are talking about since passport can not be issued if the person doesn't have the citizenship of a country. So, tell me, how could someone get the Serbian passport if he doesn't have a birth certificate which proves that he has the citizenship? There is no country that will issue passport without this documents.

Hey Arben - The name is John, not Johnson. But, you can call Mr. Johnson or even Big Johnson. I do not butcher your name.

I agree taking people's identity cards is pretty classless. I know this is not a consolation, but there were thousands of illegal immigrants crossing over into Metohija from Albania proper during the 70's, 80's, and nineties. That is completely unacceptable as well, and those people should be deported, as a majority of them were/are instigators of conflict and weapon traffickers bringing looted weapons from Albanian military installations.

I do agree with you - taking papers from your citizens is completely unacceptable. It was war and bad things happen in war, but ask yourself why the military was forced to enter Metohija in the first place.

Clearly, 1244 is outdated and out of commission the very moment that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist. (Adrian Gashi, 25 January 2007, 01:05)

Unfortunately you are incorrect for the following reasons:

(1) Kosovo-Metohija is and always has been sovereign to Serbija both within the federation of Yugoslavia as well as the Republic of Serbia. As mentioned countless times, Kosovo-Metohija even when autonomous was still constituent to Serbija not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Therefore, Kosovo-Metohija did not have republic status.

(2) Kosovo-Metohija is currently administered by UNMIK and government by UN resolution 1244 which is the framework that the international community , Serbia and Kosovar-Albanians signed on too in 1999. This is binding until a new agreement is forged in which a Serbian signature is required as well as an Kosovo-Albania signature.

John: "I agree taking people's identity cards is pretty classless. I know this is not a consolation, but there were thousands of illegal immigrants crossing over into Metohija from Albania proper during the 70's, 80's, and nineties. That is completely unacceptable as well, and those people should be deported, "

John, "the thousands of illegal immigrants crossing into Kosova from Albania during the 70's, 80's and 90's" is a Serbian fabrication. During the Cold War, up until 1990, Albania was the most hermetically closed country in the word, the regime there had a pretty tight grip on the borders, and wouldn't allow anyone to exit or enter, and handed severe punishments for anyone that was caught even near the border. There were entire families that were split by the border and could not see each-other for 45 years, because Albania and Yugoslavia were in hostile terms with each-other. Sure, it might have been one or two a year that managed to escape Albania, but those were prompty taken to Belgrade, to be checked whether they were spies, and after being paraded in Yu tv for their propaganda value, were sent to the US or the Western Europe. No one ever from them settled in Kosova, first because they weren't allowed, and second, why would they when they could go in the US.
After the 1990, Kosova was under virtual martial law by Milosevic. It would be ridiculous to think that its military would allow illegal immigrants from Albania, when he was trying to pressure Albanians out of Kosova to begin with.
A whole different situation was during the conflict with KLA, in the late 90s (97-99), when Serbian military didn't have persistent control of the border, and with KLA controlling at times up to 40% of the province's territory. Serbian military layed thousands of landmines, to prevent KLA from using the border, but nevertheless KLA managed to constantly get in and out as they wished. But during that time, there no illegal immigrants crossing, because no immigrant would want to cross the border into a conflict zone, and the flow of immigrants from Albania was either southbound (towards Greece), or westbound (towards Italy).



"I do agree with you - taking papers from your citizens is completely unacceptable. It was war and bad things happen in war, but ask yourself why the military was forced to enter Metohija in the first place."

They entered to implement operation "Horseshoe", whose objective was to ethnically cleanse Kosova from its Albanian majority. These are well documented facts, uncovered by both French and German intelligence services.

to massimo,
Greeks wanting independence
in south italy??
Hmmmm that could be arranged....

Some mercy to Serbs European fellows....

Serbs stood up with Krajina,
Rep Srpska, Knin, Kossovo,
why suffer any more???

Who left their houses in Kraijna?? The serbs

Who left their houses in Bihac?
The serbs.

In Sarajevo ??
The serbs.

In kossovo??
The serbs.

Who is living happily in BELGRADE???
Albanians....

In Voivodina?
Croatians.....

The conclusions are yours...

But lets be fair to this
people.

"…their plan for Kosovo was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. This is the plan that their leader (Sheshel) introduced long time ago and it means 1/3 of Kosova Albanians should be killed, 1/3 should be deported from Kosova, and 1/3 should be assimilated…"

Tony, are you sure of this? That 1/3 1/3 1/3 was what Ustasha's, Croatian fascist from the Second World War planed to do with a Serbs in NDH (most of today's Croatia + Bosnia and Herzegovina). Milan Budak was originator of the plan.

You sad that it was introduced by Seselj long time a go, can you be more specific, where, when? I've never heard of it. By the way, it should be sad that Seselj was just leader of one political party, not Serb official, his opinions were not policy of the state.

"….no neighbouring country wants to live with Serbs anymore, they have proven themselves, not deeply hated by three nationalities: Albanians, Bosnians and Croatians, not one but three!! Serbs should ask this question to themselves, WHY HATED?..."

Well, it's not just Serbs that they hate. Don't you know that Croats and Bosnian Muslims were not exactly very friendly to each other, (to put it mildly)? Ever heard of Stupni Do? Mostar? Bosnian Muslims even slothered each other - don't you know about conflict between Alija Izetbegovic and Fikret Abdic? Thanks to geography, Kosovo Albanians didn't fight against these other groups. Have you been (geographically) closer to them, I bet it wouldn't take a long….

It's just that in the ninety's nationalist parties got the power in time of the great insecurities, collapse of the system and economic hardships. People were worried and angry. In such times masses tend to follow "strong" leaders with simple massages. It's easiest to point to "others" as the only source of all problems - you know how it goes, "if we just get rid of "them" everything is gonna be all right" kind of thinking. In the beginning, most ordinary people would prefer to avoid conflict, but it's enough to attract relatively small numbers of violent marginals, extreme nationalists, religious fanatics, ordinary criminals, whatever, just to start the troubles. Once that's accomplished, it's easy, flame spreads further on it's own, eventualy swallowing everyone. Average people change, become less moderate, more extreme, confronted with war experiences as fear, frustration, anger .Nationalists in power in new republics believe in superiority of their nation and basically hate everyone else.

konstantin gregovic: "(1) Kosovo-Metohija is and always has been sovereign to Serbija both within the federation of Yugoslavia as well as the Republic of Serbia. As mentioned countless times, Kosovo-Metohija even when autonomous was still constituent to Serbija not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Therefore, Kosovo-Metohija did not have republic status."

What status had Kosova prior to Resolution 1244, doesn't matter one bit, as far as legalities are concerned. 1244, created a new legal reality and replaced whatever status Kosova had prior to it.


"(2) Kosovo-Metohija is currently administered by UNMIK and government by UN resolution 1244 which is the framework that the international community , Serbia and Kosovar-Albanians signed on too in 1999. This is binding until a new agreement is forged in which a Serbian signature is required as well as an Kosovo-Albania signature."

Wrong again. 1244, is a UN resolution, not a treaty between parties. As such it is voted by the UN, not signed by the parties. Not only Serbia didn't sign anything because Serbia didn't exist in 1999, it was created only last year; but neither FRY, nor Kosova signed anything, because again, it is a UN resolution, voted, not signed. With FRY being dissolved, 1244, becomes outdated and useless, since it assigns soveranity to a party that doesn't exist. Therefore, UN (and only UN) needs to approve a new resolution to replace 1244. It is funny, because this exact argument was used by Serbia to convince Montenegro to stay in the union. In a way Montenegro sold you guys out, since by dissolving FRY, it opened the way for Kosova's independence.

What status had Kosova prior to Resolution 1244, doesn't matter one bit, as far as legalities are concerned. 1244, created a new legal reality

Wrong again. 1244, is a UN resolution, not a treaty between parties. .
(Adrian Gashi, 26 January 2007, 06:14)

Let me try to get this straight, 1244 created a new legal reality but it is not a treaty between parties. Those are your own words.

UN resolution 1244 is binding to Serbia as it is the pursuant country to the Yugslav federation which comprised of Serbia and Montenegro at the time. This is the reason that the Serbian constitution was changed to reflect this.

Dear All,
I am deeply persuaded that there is no room for restoring Serbian authority over Kosovo.
That said we cannot let the Serbian/christian heritage in Kosovo be destroyed.
As an Italian, I am proud that our troops right now are protecting the holyest Serbian sites in Kosovo and that the Italian Army and Carabinieri work is the only guarantee for the Serbian of not being wiped out in the region.
In March 2004 the intervention of Carabinieri had been indispensable to stop Albanian uprising.
The holy and historical sites continuous protection, guaranteed by the International community and paid for 1/3 by Belgrade, a 1/3 by Pristina and a 1/3 by ONU, is the only thing Serbia could claim.
When Serbian people claim the respect of international borders based on international right, do not realize that another essential principle is the respect of the will of the people to self-determination.
Actually the International Law is only the result of a balance of the different, and often opposed, interests of the main powers of the world.
The International Law is not something sacred coming from Heaven.
The International Law is not based on common values since it is the outcome of different civilizations that do not share the same idea of the human being.
That is why ONU's decisions are often inconsistent and tolerate the existence of brutal dictatorships as Nort Korea, amongst others.
The reality is that Kosovo is already independent and that we must prevent the abuses of the winner (K-Albanians) against the loser (Serbians).

By far the best solution to our problem:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?land

in short:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_?land

Read carefully, with a thought.

And fight and win the grip that both culture and history have of you. One main issue here is that neither Serbs nor Albanians consider compromising as a virtue. But as a quality belonging only to the weak and losers.

massimo: do you extend the same rigts to republika srpska?

Dear massimo

the 3 northern municipalities of Kosovo are not under Albanian control. So your take about Kosovo being de facto independent do not apply to these areas.

My feeling is that if independence is declared for Kosovo, all K-Serbs will go to the north. The Serb majority there will then become solidified. De facto partition will occur, eventually leading to de jure partition.

To massimo - this is by no means a done deal. All over the world there are areas, regions, provinces where you will be told that it is more or less independent anyway. But the feeling of being independent is not enshrined in law, where as the sovereignty of land is. Taking 10% of another nation's territory just because you can, is still theft. Being held ransom to threats of violence is something that would undermine the UN and Nato to such a point that it would lose its last threads of credibility. All major European wars have started in the Balkans. Using the KLA as a land army and now delivering blood money as payment is not the way for Europe to go. I'm sure that you'll agree we all want a stable peaceful Europe, but this is not the way.

Olli,

I think you might find that such a compromise would be accpetable to the Serbian govt. I tried to open this before but could not but thanks for the second link. Anyone else unsure it is an Alund (A with a circle -nordic text). This indeed would be a win-win but form the comments sent I would hope all could remain calm if this Finnish ex-President borrows a solution that Finland has. Why did he wait if this is inline with his proposal. We'll ets just wait and see.

Dear fellow readers and writers,

excuse me, my earlier posting had bad web site address. This is the right one:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aland

Look especially chapter Politics.

massimo, let us assume it is a;ready indep sas you say. what about the likelihood that this statelet never achieves viability. one can speak of conditional independence as much as one wants... but it doesn't make the place viable. they simply do not have enough to export and what they can export is reliant upon the kindness of strangers. finally, when caluculatingthis one should not underestimate the potential for the population to simply screw things up out of incompetence and plain old corruption (there is a long track record of this). i am absolutely convinced that the statelet will never make it to independence because it is not economically viable. the best gift to serbia would be decentralization to the max so it can easily annex enclaves when status talks re-emerge in the future and the place is partitioned. talk of viability is really laughable. dont listen to me... the place speaks for itself.

I think it's clear that Kosovo is going to win independence now. I understand all solicitudes from serbian side and others about the serb minority in Kosova and also for churches and other religious buildings, but if you have a critic sight on this issue serb government is responsible for holding high the level of ethnic tensions among Kosovo. I thought that after Milosheviq is gone someone from serb gv. is going to apologize for the crimes done in Kosova and for all that pressure we had during Milosheviq regime. We albanians know to forgive, but you are not calling to forgive you. So consistency is yours however i don't believe there will have any sign of revanche after we get independence. We are different and our history doesn't know any thing like Krusha, Srebrenica or Vukovar.

Shukri - What about the SS Division Skenderberg???!!

Shukri Gashi,

I don't think any Serb is not sorry for loss of innocent lives. I a Serb am sorry for the loss of innocent lives be it Serbian, Albanian Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, African, Arab, etc...However you cannot expect a direct apology from the government. As the Serbs don't expect an apology from Albanians in Serbian Kosovo. Similarly the prime minister of Australia refuses to apologise to the indigenous aboriginies for something that happened before him. However he is sorry. There is a diff. What are you after and what do you expect will come of it??

Today the EU will vote a resolution supporting the Indebendence.

You don't have to accept nor agree, and you are surly allowed to celebrate the Kosovo/a independence as a serbian victory. In the end of the day all you Serbs celebrate are the battle you've lost

Kate

“Taking 10% of another nation's territory just because you can, is still theft”

No Kate was not 10% but 49%, 258 000 km2 was taken from Bosnia, just 10 years ago just because you could. Accomplished methods very cruel.
In Kosova Thanks to NATO, US and its allies you failed.
Now NATO, US and its allies decides, not you.
They will do what it suits them, which is stability in the Balkans.

Noel:

What Serbs celebrate in defeat is apparently far greater than you can comprehend. in doing so serbs celebrate the eternal notion of the soul.

you know, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... scotland wearies of you.

As for independence it is declared in the UN... not the halls of brussels. attempts to forge it outside the UN face the consequences i have listed many times.

i am certain that the statelet will receive a much-watered down version of what will soon be proposed. you predict far too much fair weather.

Femi - I am the 'Allies' - why would you assume I am Serbian. Not everyone in the UK, US and other Nato countries were in favour of the attack on Serbia - quite the opposite. Bosnia was a terrible vicious cruel civil war which I would never underplay. The death of any civilian is terrible, including those who died in Kosovo. But I still say that Kosovo belongs legally to Serbia and taking the land is theft, just as attacking Serbia was a form of state terrorism. Unfortunately, I don't have any say in our 'democracy'.

I say
-Southern france, north spain to the Basques
-Full independence to scotland/wales/n.ireland
-Freedom to the greeks of north epirus
- Greeks of south italy


or....

in other words
there ARE EXCUSES TO
DIVIDE ANY MODERN COUNTRY
(except maybe japan).

Wrong about Japan
the Ainu could ask for independence as the descendants of the people who first settled the islands.
The are charactersied by curly hair and a different complexion that the dominant population
Actually they have been opressed as well, but who gives a damn when Japan is a global economic leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Dears, I do not know about Serbia in which centuries is Living. Serbia is walking with closed eyes, thay do not chek where they put they foot. Thay do not want to see tha reality. They do not want to see what happened behind and they do not want to see what will be the future. I have an appeal to Serbian People: OPEN YOUR EYES, do not dream, we are living in 21 Centure, think about your children future. You have lost Kosova forever, forever, forever.

to Blag:
I would apply the same principle for Republika Serpska also (even if that entity is the outcome of ethnic cleansing) but I do not think that such a solution could be agreed internationally.
To Achilleas:
where is an ethnic Greek community in southern Italy claiming independence?

How can be Serbs and the others who support them such ignorant in face of what happend to Albanians and Kosova in a past and in a face of reality of last 10 years in Kosova?! Concerning to cultural heritage - for example, Turkey can not be different than Turkey just because of cultural heritage it has... So, will of 95% of ex-YU subject must and will be respected...

To Kate:
I do not know how you support your statements.
How can you say that the majority of NATO countries people opposed the 1999 intervention against Serbia? As far as I know it is the opposite of what you say since tha majority of the people identified Serbia with Milosevic regime.
Again, when you affirm that you have no say in your democracy means that you do not participate in free elections? Or, maybe, you think that democracy is that you decide for all the other people?

Noel, I think you are only too aware the CoE have little jursidiction and and hold little sway on EU foreign policy which is something that will formed as a consensus by indivdual nations.

Femi, the fact regarding the situation of land ownership in Bsonia is that the Serbian population actually owned 64% of the land but I guess you have little knowledege regarding the importance of Property Rights and it's link with Economic Development. It might surprise you that while any question mark hangs over property rights in Kosovo & Metohija there will be little economic development as it has done since 1999 and will be if there is any unilateral or disputed conditional independence.

To Massimo - around 40% of people in Britain were against the bombing in 1999.
There were also sizeable oppositions in other European countries (as I am sure you will know, being Italian).
My statement about democracy (or lack of) is based on the fact that Blair follows US policy, and that in the UK there was no vote to go to war in parliament anyway (in fact he went out of the way to say that it was 'not a war' even though they introduced wartime restrictions on the press).
His government is demeaning my country internationally and domestically. They have helped to turn war into some sort of warped video game backed by an evangelistic crusade which has no place in the world of politics.
I am sure that millions of Europeans now agree with these sentiments.

Noel, I guess you might be only too aware that the UK is facing local elections in Scotland. Such a pro-independence stance is now starting to impact on the internal politics of the UK and the possible dissolution of the UK.
All pro-independence should read and as is the UK able to continue with a foreign policy that calls its own stat into question? The article in the Guardian yesterday titled - Kosovo breakaway could raise Scot Nats' hopes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,,1996356,00.html

I would suggest that all look at the compromise that Olli had posted earlier - it might be that Athisarri will have had a solution in mind even beofre any discussions. For those who can't follow Olli's link put in wikepedia Finland (Athisarri's home state) and follow the link for Alund. Let's just wait and see what he proposes - I think he has many solutions and behind closed doors the contact group will choose the one that they agree on and all of us will never know.

I have just one question to you anti independence camp. Why serbs with guns and blood had right to create Republika Serpska, we all know it was never figured in the map before 1995, and we Kosovars with democratic tools can't do it in Kosovo. Give me a direct answer please.

RE: Rebuplika Srpska

Republika Srpska was created as a compromise at the Dayton Accords even though most of the Serbian Popululation wanted to Stay within the federation of Yugoslavia.

My question is why Bosnia/Herzegovina continues to exist as an entity supported by the European Community but Yugoslavia does not? Yugoslavia is just a mini-Bosnia.

Kosovo never had republic status within Yugoslavia, it was an autonomy under Serbia and did not have the same republic status as the Republic of Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Slovenia. In fact, the initial creation of Yugoslavia was called the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, Tito created the other artificial regions to satisfy his appetite to expand his Balkan kingdom by trying to engulf Bulgaria, Northern Greece and yes, even Albania.

Shukri,

are you saying that Republika Srpska is Independent? I think you will find that it is not - dayton peace process created the Bosnian status as it is today. Let me also illuminate you to the fact that the first shots in Bosnia were directed at a Serbian weddding not by Serbs!!! The tragic events that followed in this civil-war lasting 3 years 92-95, that involved 3 seperate conflicts Serbs vs Croat & Muslims, Croats Vs Muslims and Muslim (Abdic) vs Muslim (Izetbegovic) as researched by the ICTY gave numbers of killed civilian Muslims
and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian
Serbs was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think
close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly
Bosnian Muslims. On the Serb side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a
bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croat soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war.
Read that again and understand the figures bear out that show all sides lost and all sides were responsible for the tradegy.

Regarding Kosovo & Metohija 1244 reconfirmed the territorial integrity of Serbia so unless there is a new resolution in the UN you will have to live with it!!!

We are different and our history doesn't know any thing like Krusha, Srebrenica or Vukovar.
(Shukri Gashi, 24 January 2007, 13:30)

1900-1912-Albanians together with Ottoman Turks fought against Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania who finally broke five hundred years of Ottoman occupation.

(2) During WWI, Albania denies access to the retreating Serbian Army from Austro-Hungaria, Germany and Bulgaria. In fact, the Albanian hordes attacked and ravaged the Serbian army as they finally reached the island of Kerkira (Corfu) under Greek protection.

(3) The Albanians were firmly behind the Nazi's during WWII.


Where did the Serbs Go?

Before the Civil War-

Serb or declared Yugoslav

Srebrenica-35% Serb/Yugoslav
Mostar-18% Serb/Yugoslav
Sarajevo-30% Serb/Yugoslav
Krajina-12% Serb/Yugoslav
Kosovo-10% Serb/Yugoslav

Now

Srebrenica-

Princip, The CoE resolution is very significant step towards the independence. that'll awake ppl such as yourself and Blag to the fact that the EU and the US are determined to finish this chapter.

Kate, the overwhelming majority of ppl in the UK and NATO supported the 1999 Bombing. That was the best thing the Alliance ever did since its formation..

As per Scots they are free to decide whatever they want, and the English will be very happy to congratulate them if they were to choose independence.

Kosovo/a must be recognised as an independent state ASAP.

to Kate

I'm really curious to know how you come at the conclusion that Kosova belongs legally to Serbia? Do you know any of the Kosova history of 20th century. Can you argue the legal rights of Serbia over Kosova? Do you know that not a single Albanian of Kosova had in modern history the Serbian Citizenship? Being a constitutional part of ex-Yugoslavia, Kosova has the same right to become independent as the other parts that constituted it. And the fact that Serbs oppose it doesn't make it right. They opposed fiercely the independence of other ex parts of Yugoslavia too. And that should make you think. Why no other Balkan Slav nation wants to stay together with them any longer. Not even people that speak the same language and share with them their whole history. Croats, Monte Negrin, Slovenes. These are stuff better to be analyzed not by you, but Serbs themselves. And then they will understand that nobody is taking away from them their "divine right" of ownership over the holy land of Kosova, but is their villainous way of treating their neighbors that will relapse always to them. As for all the other good people in this forum I do hope they understand the moral base of the demand of Albanians in Kosova to live peacefully and independent at their own homes.

UN resolution 1244 guarantees the territorial integrity of Kosovo under Serbia, nothing can change no matter.

Whether the Atasari proposal is "supervised" independance or "substantial" autonomy, Belgrade must be in agreement and signatory or de-facto Kosovo in paper remains sovereign under Serbia.

The question again is which Serbian politician will cave in and sell Kosovo for the unsure promise of EU candidacy. Kostunica entire election platform was based on the protection of the consitution and sovereignty of Kosovo.

As for the Kosovo Albanians, independance is an oxymoron, it should be called dependance.

I have never found Republika Serpska in the older maps. If it was result of Dayton agreement Independent Kosovo will be result of an another agreement of major powers and Kosovars. You killed 8000 muslims in Srebrenica to create it, we didn't kill no any (i supoze you will give numeral of serbs killed but it is not true because you had superior army regarding ours).

English B92 part where Serbian refugees describes Serbia like paradise which is more powerful, richest, etc! And Serbian B92 part of Serbia where Serbian people from Serbia said that Serbia is non-democratic, criminal state, poor, mafia is governing them, many war fugitives, civil killers child raper’s etc.
As a neighbor to whom I should believe to Serbian refugees who lives all a round the world in English side of this site or to Serbian people who lives in Serbia?
2 February 2007 all Serbian refugees are welcome in the Newest European Country Dardania
PS not those Serbs who committed crimes in Kosova only those Serbs who was victims of Serbian Nationalist Madness.

"Let me also illuminate you to the fact that the first shots in Bosnia were directed at a Serbian weddding not by Serbs!!!"

Intersting thought Princip but not entirely illuminating. If we are to regard your use of 'Bosnia' as being the shortened version of 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' then we must consider the 'first shots' as having been fired at least as early as the JNA attack on Ravno in October 1991...

shukri, i would be pleased to answer your question. here is the justification for BiH serb resistance:

1. there were significant international treaties recognizing BiH as a territory of sovereign yugoslavia, but they were disregarded by washington in its unilateral move made outside of the parameters of the UN.

2. the laws of sovereign yugoslavia disallowed succession unless certain steps were followed. sarajevo disregarded those laws as did washington who urged them to disregard. again outside of the UN.

3. bosnia chose the path of violent succession OUTSIDE OF THE UN supported by an out-of-control superpower when 100% of serbs did not wish to go. again... outside of the UN.

today (as was predicted back then), the majority of the population of bosnia has many times stated that it wishes to break away to either croatia or serbia... yet is forced to remain... by the UN.

48.0% Muslim
37.1% Serb
14.3% Croat
00.6% Other
------------
100%

there you have your answers.... now some questions of my own:

1. why is multi-culturalism destroyed in yugoslavia, but made a god in bosnia?

2. why is every one of these new countries homogenous... and only serbia heterogenous?

3. why is one rule used to justify bosnia... and then disregarded in kosovo and vice versa?

4. why is the UN the law of the world only when the US can achieve its goals thru it... but not the law of the world when the US cannot achieve its goals thru it?

5. why does tony blair threaten the scottish people when a movement toward indep has arisen? and do you support the scots in their indep movement? do you support srpska in its indep movement?

if you do not support srpska... do you really think you can contain economically ascendant S as it grows to dominate this pathetic little region we all occupy?

either win-win or we deliberately scuttle kosovo's viability... and break frankenstein bosnia.

weakened washington wearies from all its enforced commitments and steadily mounting problems. make no mistake... this is a superpower in international trouble. no more selective rules. Unless win-win, serbia will extract it's % one way or the other. All this depends upon serb good will. That good will shall definitively end should washington attempt unilateral recognition outside of the UN.

the continuing fact of all these silly, silly independences is that they have produced economically weak states (some of which are not even viable). only slovenia, croatia, and serbia have the capacity for viability. the remaining entities will one day dissolve and be absorbed by other entities. All of these entities have very severe and systemically profound economic difficulties. There is a reason they were never independent in 1000 yrs... It is because they were never viable in all that time.

My dear Serbian friends! Why don't you stop with partition threats?

If Serbia is asking other minorities within Serbia to participate in its elections and institutions, why can't Kosovo Albanians expect the same from the Kosovo Serbs.

The fact is that Serbs always want to rule others, but never be ruled, and that alone has given birth to wars, partition of Bosnia and now you are all talking about partition of Kosovo.

Partition will have a lot more negative effects in Balkans then Independence itself.

This strategy will ultimately inspire Albanians from Macedonia, Presevo valley, and Montenegro to counter declare independence of their own.

You'll have states the size of Lihtenstein all over Ballkans, and saldly to say without any viable means of survivel.

With all due respect, the strategic ideas some of you are proposing are very destructive to peace and prosperity in Ballkans.

Kosovo Albanian's situation is very identical to Israels. Fundamental Arabic states will never accept our struggle for survival and it appears that fundamental Serbs won't accept Kosovars struggle for survival either.

But life has to continue and I hope Kosovo Serbs realize that it's in their best interest to join the institutions ran by EU, and if EU doesn't meet their economical and social needs better than Serbia did, then, they could talk of partition.

"ou will never know how it will be, unless, you give the process a chance."

Peace for both Serbs and Albanian!

Isaac Lehmanski

To Noel:

the last time i checked the 3 points below were the issues being discussed.

1. legal mechanism please!

2. viability w/o serbian diplomatic recognition and prolonged serbian legal challenge

3. precedent... with the first effects felt in bosnia and then in the caucaus

17 coe's and 18 washington's each threatening at their full capacity will not force serbia to play ball on this. we have a document that legally gaurantees this as serbian territory. break that document and expect consequences.

Princip,
So what you saying is that you will accept in peace any resolution coming from UN even if it is Independece for Kosova???
Kate,
According to you, its not OK to take away 10% of the serbian territory, but it was OK to take away 25% of the Albania's territory on 1913. Is that right?

@Shukri..

You're way off base, and your ignorance only inflames people..

Put away your 19th century Austro-Hungarian revisionistic book please. It was bad enough that the Croats were raised with it.
"Why serbs with guns and blood had right to create Republika Serpska, we all know it was never figured in the map before 1995, and we Kosovars with democratic tools can't do it in Kosovo."

Well it WAS..Unfortunately Bosnian Serb leadership didn't know when to quit, and eventually lost Belgrade's backing..

Let me ask YOU!!!
If Serbs in Bosnia didn't stand up, what would they be living in right now??
Parliamentarians were warned (by Karadzic himself), that war would be bloody, and they weren't ready for it. Begging wasn't enough i guess.

Bosnia isn't black and white.
All sides sold arms to each other, profited, and killed one another. It was very regonalized, and is quite different than Kosovo was.

Enough with the history lessons please, and stick to the articles...

Noel:

"Kate, the overwhelming majority of ppl in the UK and NATO supported the 1999 Bombing."

No, they did not. A surprising number were against it, which was incredible seeing as the information coming out from Downing Street and the press under a 'D Notice' was totally one-sided. I have never witnessed such warmongering by ill-educated politicians who didn't even know basic facts. To quell argument, anyone who spoke out against them was treated like a genocidal murderer. Ironic really.

"That was the best thing the Alliance ever did since its formation."

It was totally illegal and did not happen within the UN Charter or any convention of war drawn up and previously valued. Under any serious discussion, it is obvious that diplomacy had not been exhausted.

"As per Scots they are free to decide whatever they want, and the English will be very happy to congratulate them if they were to choose independence."

I agree, but they are a self-contained nation of Scottish people which even has its own legal system. Not a province within England with a majority population from another ethnicity altogether.

POOR NOEL

24.1.2007 16:23

Davis: Council of Europe defends the territorial integrity of its member-states

Council of Europe Secretary General Terry Davis expressed in Strasbourg doubt in the justification of a possible imposed decision to the status of Kosovo-Metohija, as it would not be in line with the accepted principle of respect for the territorial integrity of states. As a secretary general, I support the territorial integrity of Council of Europe member-states until the UN decides otherwise, he emphasized at a breakfast with the press during the sitting of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly.

RE: Srebrenica

Nasir Oric killed hundreds of Serbs in and around Srebrinica and was acquited by the Hague Trbunal, very simmiliar to the other Albanian terrorist Agim Ceku.

Illumination of the Truth

Tito died in 1980, the Yugoslaia federation adopted a rotating presidency in hopes of keeping the federation together.

However, there continue to be large push of a decentralized central government(can't happen in a communist government)

Slobodan Milosevic rose through the ranks of the Serbian Communist Party and actually enforced more liberal socialist ideals including adoption of a free market model for small business. Initially, the US was supportive of the new leap towards more democratic ideals.

Croatia and Slovenian seperatists emerged and started smuggling arms from the former East Germany through Spiegel. The uprising were planed with the full intention of creating a revolution in Yugoslavia which happened.

If the JNA attacked in October 1991, it would have been under the decision of Ante-Markovic, the Croatian Vice President at that time of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The Highest ranking JNA General at that time was Kadijevic, half Slovenian, Half Croatian.

"2 February 2007 all Serbian refugees are welcome in the Newest European Country Dardania
PS not those Serbs who committed crimes in Kosova only those Serbs who was victims of Serbian Nationalist Madness."
I would like to comment on this as it seems some Albanians make this sort of comment on a regular basis, basically trying to proclaim who has a right to live in Kosovo and who does not. In a true democracy it is not up to the government to determine who is worthy of being a citizen and who is not. While I agree that those Serbs from Kosovo who committed criminal acts should be punished, once they have served their terms and repaid their debt to society, they have a fundamental right to return to their homes, just as everyone has a fundamental right to return to their homes. You can not place conditions on residency like that, and not allow the other side the same consideration. Some Albanians committed crimes as well, should they be excluded forever even after serving their time?
In essence these sorts of comments are supportive of ethnic cleansing and should be condemned by all sides.
I am truly sorry for the suffering on all sides. I truly believe that if a different approach had been taken, that things would be completely different.
I still stand by my comments that there are absolutely no differences between the mindsets of the nationalist Albanians and the nationalist Serbs. Clearly, like or not, Serbs and Albanians are nearly identical, and I'm willing to bet future DNA evidence will show a close relation between the two races, particularly between Montenegrins and Albanians.
We have much more in common with one another then we do with the rest of Europe. We have the exact same fears, concerns, and desires, and have the same problems with our populations being divided over a multiple of countries.
Its astounding to me that we haven't tried at all to work together to resolve our differences, and that many who post here seem to indicate that if all else fails, that Kosovars will resort to violence to get independence. No one, on either side made any kind of real attempt to come up with a compromise, nor has any attempt been made to protect the rights of minorities in the region.
I personally believe that a solution that is better for both sides can be found, but I do not believe the people of the region are ready for it yet.
I predict that the International Community will make fine sounding speeches about Kosovo and will take steps in the direction towards independence, but in reality it will only be a delaying tactic in order to avoid making the tough decisions that the European Community needs to make in order to resolve this issue. I think for now, it will remain in a sorta limbo state, similar to the status of Bosnia, which remains far behind in joining the EU and is just waiting for a spark to set it off at some future date. I also predict that after a few years of this, the Albanians will just declare independence and it will be recognized by enough countries that it gets pushed through at the UN. This tactic worked well for Croatia, a country the UN declared was unfit for independence because of their record in dealing with the rights of minorities.
However, this type of solution would require waiting for the right moment in time to do so, and with Russia looking for an excuse to exert its power in Europe again, clearly now is not the time and would only further the divisions in the EU and the world.
I also believe a situation like this is not in the best interests of the Albanians, or the Serbs. A solution like this would have a negative effect on those independence movements in Macedonia, Montenegro, and South Serbia (There's enough websites devoted to these causes that I believe they have support from a significant enough portion of the population). However, by unilaterally voting for Independence, you will be abandoning your Albanians brothers in the other countries in which they live and actually hurting their chances of independence, thus potentially creating unneeded divisions of interest. In addition, you will be damaging your chances of joining with Albania proper. Whether you like it or not, having two Albanian countries in Europe will only cause tensions in your population. If you think you will never have differences, one only need look at the current situation with Montenegro and Serbia to see it is in fact easy to create divisions of interest between two seemingly irrsepartible peoples. Given the tradition of blood feuds in Albanian culture, and the fact that already there are two separate ethnic classes of Albanians, this is a very real possibility, like it or not.
I suggest a real attempt at compromise be undertaken at this point. I suggest making it into a broader issue of the rights of both Serbs and Albanians in all those countries in which they live. Clearly in this point we have similar complaints. That could be the focal point in finding a common goal. Regardless of the outcome of the status talks, lines of communication and integration between our two countries is essential for the success of the region as a whole.
Those of you who are willing to lay down your lives for symbolic control of a region that will someday be just a small state in a United Europe are selling out future generations of both our people's. Its going to be so unimportant at that point in time as to make all these issues seem insane. Can you imagine Americans fighting over whether they are part of the State of California or Nevada? Sounds rather silly doesn't it?
So my advice to those who proclaim they are willing to die for this cause, do not destroy the economic stability of future generations of the region for an ideal that is already at this time completely outdated.
Nation States are dead, globalization is here. Western Europe will need your children to keep their population from stagnating and soon enough, all the countries of Europe will have a mixed population. The next generation or two will be difficult, with nationalism in its dying throws and the possibility of violence as a means to prevent it. However, history has shown that trying to impede such new notions in society and culture always meet with failure.
Just ask yourselves how you would like it to roll out. Do you want a massacre like what happened in France when they overthrew their Royalty, or would you like a peaceful progression like you had in England. In the end, it doesn't really matter, the final results will be the same no matter what.

RE: UN Resolution 1244-Annex I

Ahitiassari's plan cannot supercede UN resolution 1244 without a signature from the Serbian Government.

A reminder to all who seems to forget that UN resolution 1244 is law and binding. Please take note of maintaining the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia which is now part of the Serbian Constitution.

"A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for a substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of the KLA;"

Do the albanians contributing to the message board not read the news from other sites? The Russians have guaranteed a veto of any independence resolution that Serbia does not agree with. There are also EU states against independence for Kosovo. With the US being your only firm supporter, and now finding out that going it alone does not work, how will you get your independence? The albanian papers can say that you will get independence. Ahtisaari can also write a book about what should happen in Kosovo, but that doesn't mean that Kosovo will become independent. It takes the entire Security Council, which won't happen, to obtain your independence. So will someone please explain why they STILL think that independence is going to happen? And please don't use the excuse that Russia will be bought off.

International law is based on precedents like any other type of law.

If Kosovo is allowed independance contrary to resolution 1244 and without Serbia's signature, then indeed this is theft and a precedent.

This precedent will allow other nations to seek "self deternmination" and "independance" without adherance to any sovereign nations wish.

@ Olli,

as far as I'm concerned, there have been different moves in Aland for independence or union with Sweden (let us remeber also that Finnish army and police went never in Aland to burn down the homes of the locals and chase them off the islands. Also, the Alanders are some tens k, not 2 millions, it would have been really different then). The Alanders have decided, democratically, to stay with Finland (they have everything to win from it). That has been very fair, cool-headed, calm and rational, typically Scandinavian-style and of course high-prised.

Should it apply to the Kosovars also? Let them decide for themselves either to stay with Serbia or anything else. That would be equally fair.

Ardian hasn't a clue about who lives around him. Did anybody else read his comments???

Alexander_James, I think the case you highlight illuminates the collapse of Yugoslavia as a whole at the time and is not specific to BiH civil war of 92-95 which I refered to specifically. But it does create the whole set of questions as to Who Was actually doing What to Whom, When and Why.

Given that you point out Ravno Oct. 91 and the specifics are that the JNA (Yugoslav National Army) was a state institution of which BiH was a consituent and its representative at the time - Alija Izetbegovic at the time is quoted as saying "This is not our war" and that this was action carried out by the multiethnic yugoslav army of the multiethnic State of Yugoslavia I would tend to suggest that the case you illuminate is ambiguous to the accepted time frame of the BiH civil war of 92-95.

True there are various interpretations but at that point the republic of BiH was an integral part of Yugoslavia as was Slovenia and Croatia. Only between December 19 and December 23, did several European countries, including Germany, Sweden and Italy announced their recognition of Croatia's (and Slovenia's) independence. The European Union as a whole recognized the independence of the two breakaway republics on January 15, 1992. So it is very ambiguous to state that Serbs were responsible for that action as part of a civil war in BiH - my take would be that Ravno was initiated and carried out as part of the operations of a JNA that at the time was acting in what they believed to be the interest of the Yugoslav state and not specific to the BiH civil war 92-95 between the 3 ethnic groups within BiH alone as is evident by Izetbegovic's quote at the time. You might recall that there was much debate and confusion on what to do with regards Yugoslavia as a whole. Where was the collective EU foreign policy at that time that could have offered alternatives to the pandora's box that followed unilateral recognition? I ask you to consider the following quote by Dorothy Thompson

"Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict -- alternatives to passive or aggressive responses, alternatives to violence"

and will bring the subject back to today's situation and lets hope that people can learn from earlier mistakes and not rush into any ill thought and short term solutions and satisfies the outside parties wishes but disregards the ones who will be caught up and lead to further conflicts in the long term.

konstantin gregovic,
your anti-Albanian historical claims are all false. I suggest you read some objective historical books, instead of taking for granted all the Serbian propaganda.

Fair & Balanced?

Perhaps to the Albanian side. I tend to agree that this is wishful thinking on Ahtisaari's side. The real reason that Delic is in Davos and the ICG pimps are clamoring for Tadic to form a 'democratic' or 'puppet' regime is to make their objectives easier.

But, until Kate Smith has sung and the ink is dry in the UN I will not believe a thing that is said or written. It is all political manuevering. This period means nothing.

BTW - I love the way the Albanian side makes up history as they go along. It is very humerous. Thank you for that.

I think forgiving Serbia's foreign debt of $18B,allowing 1M unemployed Serbs immediate access to EU labor markets,and allowing exclusive autonomy to the Serbian Orthodox Church for religious sites in Kosovo from now until eternity would be strong incentives the EU can immediately offer to get the Serbs to be more cooperative in the eyes of the EU.And of course a stationing of EU personnel in Kosovo from now until the end of time as a barrier between these 2 communities.Any thoughts?

These are the consequences of your actions Serbs. Everything from now on will be Fair & Balanced for you.

I congratulate the Kosovar Albanians on their independence.

I would agree to the commentator who said the albanian comments are in some way funny to read.

I find them both funny and sad. funny because of that totally autistic way of selective perception and sad, because they are lying to themselves by repeating those myths about the Illyrians on the one hand...and on the other hand at the same time try to tell the Serbs to let their "myths" go... they are simply not capable of analyzing themselves...but very mulishly selling their "analysis" of the political situation of world ( russia can´t do nothing about it, and big brother america will do everything for the Albanians etc. )

just one hint for Shukri:

the serbian army is still superior. I would rather be carefully thinking it over, if someone says publicly the serbian military is not capable of fighting a war. but that is not important, since this time it would be NATO stopping you.
and the serbian military fought against terrorists, the so called uck killed civilians, mostly Serbs, but also their own poeple.
thats something that the Albanians who are posting here , are quietly ignoring...

just let us see, who will be partying in a few weeks or months.
you will of course reply that this will be the Albanians, but...you are permanently overestimating yourself, thats your greatest problem.

konstantin gregovic: " ... taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ..."

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and as it always happens with the empires that end up in the trash bin of history, the accords that they have signed are null and void. When Serbia split from the Ottoman Empire, was it still upholding the trade and customs treaties that the Ottoman had signed with the Austrians? No, it wasn't, Austria had to renegotiate new treaties with the new state, because the Ottoman law was no longer valid. Here we have a similar situation. UN resolution 1244, referred to FRY, a country that ceased to exist. Serbia is a new independent state, and it can not inherit 1244 without it being explicitly amended by the UN. Because in the eyes of the international law, Serbia as an independent state and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia are two different entities. Otherwise, UN could have simply renegotiated Kosova's status with Montenegro as an equal partner in FRY. Serbia can not claim Kosova, more than Montenegro can, because Serbia is not FRY and Serbia itself declared independence from FRY! And 1244 doesn't speak of Serbia or Montenegro as independent countries, but speaks of FRY.

Clearly, 1244 is outdated and out of commission the very moment that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist. Therein lies the legal need by UN to come up with a different resolution to replace 1244, because the death of FRY left Kosova in a legal limbo. So as the sole survivor, the UN is the only party that can change 1244, and no, it doesn't have to negotiate anything with Serbia, because Serbia as an entity came into being after 1244 was signed. UN is doing a great favor to Serbia, by allowing it to express its views, opinions and state its interests regarding the Serbian community in Kosova and the cultural monuments, and Serbia could have used its chance better by actively negotiating rather than stalling for time. Or accusing the mediator and stalling for time. Or demanding the restart of the negotiations all over again after each round so they could stall for time.

But legally, UN doesn't need Serbia's signature for anything, and that's why the decision will be taken and imposed by the UN.

Europe and the Great Powers obviously haven't learned the lesson(s) from previous experiences. The lack of understanding the West exhibits towards Balkan history and inter-ethnic relations is laughable and sad, or maybe this is all done for a purpose? To make a long story short, as far as Kosovo is concerned - if Kosovo is granted independence, Rep. Srpska should be granted indepedence as well. This is a cruel mathematical certainty. Those who point out that Serbs gained Rep. Srpska through violence and war should look no further than the present situation in Kosovo for a counter-example, and how exactly Albanians achieved ethnic dominance and ability to 'choose' indepedence. However, if Rep. Srpska is not extended the same opportunity and right to self-determination the above mathematical equation will be upset and as a result who knows what else awaits us in the next 50-100 years.

Dear all, I have been after reading all these comments I could not stay but post a message to all of you. Born and raised in Viti – Kosova, a region, which before 1999 was resided by 70% of its residents of the Albanian nationality and around 27% Serbians, I know how Serbian mind works when it comes to nationalism. They are so sure that they are the best and the earth does not hold anything better then them and they think they are so innocent, they even have this old popular saying of their won “SPEAK SERBIAN IF YOU WANT GOD TO UNDERSTAND YOU”!!!!!!!. One thing I really admire them for: the fact that they never give up!!! Win, loose, live, die, they are all the same to them, somehow they still manage to live out of reality. When it comes to propaganda, they transform their biggest losses into a victories by refusing the reality and believing what the want to believe happened. I lived in Kosova during the war, I had Serbian neighbors, and my family was well respected by both sides (Albanian and Serbian) because my father was a well-known doctor. After NATO started bombing, the respect that Serbians had towards any Albanian family was gone. I remember even the closest neighbors that know our family for more than 50 years telling my father leave Kosova or we are going to kill you and your family. It never happened though, we left the city but not Kosova. During that time, I witnessed with my own eyes Serbian military stealing what they could, burning and shooting at everything that was or belonged to Albanians just because they could. Anyone reading this can say that they were fighting “terrorists” KLA, but NO in the region where I lived, there was no KLA at all. After war some of these Serbians ex-neighbors were trying to act like nothing happened, and the ones that actually were, serving in Serbian military and police force were saying that they had done nothing but protect Serbian civilians. Protect from who? From Albanians worth, houses, cows, dogs etc?!! Maybe they though Albanian cows were part of KLA group and where going to fight Serbian civilians!! NO they failed to tell the truth, the truth that they were trying to make their old plan work, their plan for Kosovo was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. This is the plan that their leader (Sheshel) introduced long time ago and it means 1/3 of Kosova Albanians should be killed, 1/3 should be deported from Kosova, and 1/3 should be assimilated. Unfortunately, thanks to God, KLA, USA and most of European countries that plan failed. Today I live and study here in U.S.A. and sometime think what a nightmare for a country to have such bloody neighbors, How can they sleep at night knowing what they did? But hey, I said it in beginning they are good at cheating themselves from reality. This is not for all the Serbs, there should be there good Serbs but unfortunately, I never knew one.
These are just some reasons why Kosova should and is going to be independent, no neighboring country wants to live with Serbs anymore, they have proven themselves, not deeply hated by three nationalities: Albanians, Bosnians and Croatians, not one but three!! Serbs should ask this question to themselves, WHY HATED?...

To the Serbian Govt

I would just give them independence with conditions. Move all Serbs North of the Ibar to included all churches, grave site etc. Each land owner would be compensated for there property and given the opportunity to build homes of equal size north of the ibar. If the population north choose to unite with Serbia so be it. The albaninas will have there part and Serbia there part. That will be the peace. Live with it, that will be Marti suggestion to make everyone happy. But of course the albanians won't be happy nor will the Serbs but the EU will say either take it or go complain to someone else who cares.

To Ardian:
I doubt that there is some Albanian in Kosovo who doesn't have a Serbian citizenship, since all Kosovo Albanians are using Serbian passport. It's so true and very funny for me.
And it's so obvious that you don't know the history of "Kosova" since you can say something like that.
Independence, if any, will bring a very hard and painful waking up for many local people who believe that everything will be perfect the very next morning. So, we'll see what will happen...

Johnson,
I don't know where you were during the war in Kosova 1999, but it probably was not planet Earth. During this war the Serb military was confiscating all documents and passports from Albanians in Kosova to make it appear that Kosovar Albanians were not citizens of Yugoslavia, i.e. Serbia.
Now, who is it that does not know the history of Kosova?
Don't you feel a little bit silly.

to Tony:

I have never heard such a saying like you wrote there in capital letters. and believe me, I would know it, since I am a very well informed person in regard of history, traditon and culture of the serbian nation and to some parts of it´s neighbour nations.

it´s frightening how little you seem to know about the Serbs, a people you are claiming to have lived with...

Johnson,

Most of the Albanians in Kosovo/a have got the UNMIK travel document. Of course some of the K Albanians working abroad might still posses the Yugoslav passports but that is only for the purpose of travel arrangements.

Surly once Kosovo/a becomes independent all the K Albanians would be more than happy to have their own Passports.

Kosovo/a must be recognised as an independence state NOW.

Arben:
You obviously don't know what you are talking about since passport can not be issued if the person doesn't have the citizenship of a country. So, tell me, how could someone get the Serbian passport if he doesn't have a birth certificate which proves that he has the citizenship? There is no country that will issue passport without this documents.

Hey Arben - The name is John, not Johnson. But, you can call Mr. Johnson or even Big Johnson. I do not butcher your name.

I agree taking people's identity cards is pretty classless. I know this is not a consolation, but there were thousands of illegal immigrants crossing over into Metohija from Albania proper during the 70's, 80's, and nineties. That is completely unacceptable as well, and those people should be deported, as a majority of them were/are instigators of conflict and weapon traffickers bringing looted weapons from Albanian military installations.

I do agree with you - taking papers from your citizens is completely unacceptable. It was war and bad things happen in war, but ask yourself why the military was forced to enter Metohija in the first place.

Clearly, 1244 is outdated and out of commission the very moment that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ceased to exist. (Adrian Gashi, 25 January 2007, 01:05)

Unfortunately you are incorrect for the following reasons:

(1) Kosovo-Metohija is and always has been sovereign to Serbija both within the federation of Yugoslavia as well as the Republic of Serbia. As mentioned countless times, Kosovo-Metohija even when autonomous was still constituent to Serbija not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Therefore, Kosovo-Metohija did not have republic status.

(2) Kosovo-Metohija is currently administered by UNMIK and government by UN resolution 1244 which is the framework that the international community , Serbia and Kosovar-Albanians signed on too in 1999. This is binding until a new agreement is forged in which a Serbian signature is required as well as an Kosovo-Albania signature.

John: "I agree taking people's identity cards is pretty classless. I know this is not a consolation, but there were thousands of illegal immigrants crossing over into Metohija from Albania proper during the 70's, 80's, and nineties. That is completely unacceptable as well, and those people should be deported, "

John, "the thousands of illegal immigrants crossing into Kosova from Albania during the 70's, 80's and 90's" is a Serbian fabrication. During the Cold War, up until 1990, Albania was the most hermetically closed country in the word, the regime there had a pretty tight grip on the borders, and wouldn't allow anyone to exit or enter, and handed severe punishments for anyone that was caught even near the border. There were entire families that were split by the border and could not see each-other for 45 years, because Albania and Yugoslavia were in hostile terms with each-other. Sure, it might have been one or two a year that managed to escape Albania, but those were prompty taken to Belgrade, to be checked whether they were spies, and after being paraded in Yu tv for their propaganda value, were sent to the US or the Western Europe. No one ever from them settled in Kosova, first because they weren't allowed, and second, why would they when they could go in the US.
After the 1990, Kosova was under virtual martial law by Milosevic. It would be ridiculous to think that its military would allow illegal immigrants from Albania, when he was trying to pressure Albanians out of Kosova to begin with.
A whole different situation was during the conflict with KLA, in the late 90s (97-99), when Serbian military didn't have persistent control of the border, and with KLA controlling at times up to 40% of the province's territory. Serbian military layed thousands of landmines, to prevent KLA from using the border, but nevertheless KLA managed to constantly get in and out as they wished. But during that time, there no illegal immigrants crossing, because no immigrant would want to cross the border into a conflict zone, and the flow of immigrants from Albania was either southbound (towards Greece), or westbound (towards Italy).



"I do agree with you - taking papers from your citizens is completely unacceptable. It was war and bad things happen in war, but ask yourself why the military was forced to enter Metohija in the first place."

They entered to implement operation "Horseshoe", whose objective was to ethnically cleanse Kosova from its Albanian majority. These are well documented facts, uncovered by both French and German intelligence services.

to massimo,
Greeks wanting independence
in south italy??
Hmmmm that could be arranged....

Some mercy to Serbs European fellows....

Serbs stood up with Krajina,
Rep Srpska, Knin, Kossovo,
why suffer any more???

Who left their houses in Kraijna?? The serbs

Who left their houses in Bihac?
The serbs.

In Sarajevo ??
The serbs.

In kossovo??
The serbs.

Who is living happily in BELGRADE???
Albanians....

In Voivodina?
Croatians.....

The conclusions are yours...

But lets be fair to this
people.

"…their plan for Kosovo was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. This is the plan that their leader (Sheshel) introduced long time ago and it means 1/3 of Kosova Albanians should be killed, 1/3 should be deported from Kosova, and 1/3 should be assimilated…"

Tony, are you sure of this? That 1/3 1/3 1/3 was what Ustasha's, Croatian fascist from the Second World War planed to do with a Serbs in NDH (most of today's Croatia + Bosnia and Herzegovina). Milan Budak was originator of the plan.

You sad that it was introduced by Seselj long time a go, can you be more specific, where, when? I've never heard of it. By the way, it should be sad that Seselj was just leader of one political party, not Serb official, his opinions were not policy of the state.

"….no neighbouring country wants to live with Serbs anymore, they have proven themselves, not deeply hated by three nationalities: Albanians, Bosnians and Croatians, not one but three!! Serbs should ask this question to themselves, WHY HATED?..."

Well, it's not just Serbs that they hate. Don't you know that Croats and Bosnian Muslims were not exactly very friendly to each other, (to put it mildly)? Ever heard of Stupni Do? Mostar? Bosnian Muslims even slothered each other - don't you know about conflict between Alija Izetbegovic and Fikret Abdic? Thanks to geography, Kosovo Albanians didn't fight against these other groups. Have you been (geographically) closer to them, I bet it wouldn't take a long….

It's just that in the ninety's nationalist parties got the power in time of the great insecurities, collapse of the system and economic hardships. People were worried and angry. In such times masses tend to follow "strong" leaders with simple massages. It's easiest to point to "others" as the only source of all problems - you know how it goes, "if we just get rid of "them" everything is gonna be all right" kind of thinking. In the beginning, most ordinary people would prefer to avoid conflict, but it's enough to attract relatively small numbers of violent marginals, extreme nationalists, religious fanatics, ordinary criminals, whatever, just to start the troubles. Once that's accomplished, it's easy, flame spreads further on it's own, eventualy swallowing everyone. Average people change, become less moderate, more extreme, confronted with war experiences as fear, frustration, anger .Nationalists in power in new republics believe in superiority of their nation and basically hate everyone else.

konstantin gregovic: "(1) Kosovo-Metohija is and always has been sovereign to Serbija both within the federation of Yugoslavia as well as the Republic of Serbia. As mentioned countless times, Kosovo-Metohija even when autonomous was still constituent to Serbija not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Therefore, Kosovo-Metohija did not have republic status."

What status had Kosova prior to Resolution 1244, doesn't matter one bit, as far as legalities are concerned. 1244, created a new legal reality and replaced whatever status Kosova had prior to it.


"(2) Kosovo-Metohija is currently administered by UNMIK and government by UN resolution 1244 which is the framework that the international community , Serbia and Kosovar-Albanians signed on too in 1999. This is binding until a new agreement is forged in which a Serbian signature is required as well as an Kosovo-Albania signature."

Wrong again. 1244, is a UN resolution, not a treaty between parties. As such it is voted by the UN, not signed by the parties. Not only Serbia didn't sign anything because Serbia didn't exist in 1999, it was created only last year; but neither FRY, nor Kosova signed anything, because again, it is a UN resolution, voted, not signed. With FRY being dissolved, 1244, becomes outdated and useless, since it assigns soveranity to a party that doesn't exist. Therefore, UN (and only UN) needs to approve a new resolution to replace 1244. It is funny, because this exact argument was used by Serbia to convince Montenegro to stay in the union. In a way Montenegro sold you guys out, since by dissolving FRY, it opened the way for Kosova's independence.

What status had Kosova prior to Resolution 1244, doesn't matter one bit, as far as legalities are concerned. 1244, created a new legal reality

Wrong again. 1244, is a UN resolution, not a treaty between parties. .
(Adrian Gashi, 26 January 2007, 06:14)

Let me try to get this straight, 1244 created a new legal reality but it is not a treaty between parties. Those are your own words.

UN resolution 1244 is binding to Serbia as it is the pursuant country to the Yugslav federation which comprised of Serbia and Montenegro at the time. This is the reason that the Serbian constitution was changed to reflect this.