EU: Limited independence for Kosovo

In relation to W. Petritsch statement, it seems to me that we are heading towards a full independence from Serbia and a limited independence due to a temporary UE administration

What have I said all the time? Kosovo is de facto a conditional independent state and will soon be also de jure. For Albanians conditional independence is a compromise since they wanted independence without any prefix.

And the sun rises again after many days with anti-independence news here at B92.

The EU should have no say in this issue. The first thing that htey should do is to pay for their damages that they commited durring the bombing.

gotta love those western losers that would never get a real job at home and therefore are pushed away to the balkans or other places to play the big intellectuals.

austria pushed him away on a not so important job (where he can do much lesser harm than he did in the 2 post-bosnian states) and he is talking about how the eu (!) will behave. that there is still no money from the eu-member states for a mission that probably never will happen, doesn´t bother him at all. i hope he has informed all the member states about how they have to behave,lol.

even the "international crisis group", home of the maybe most quixotic anti-serbian weirdo´s is trying it - probably the first time - with a sense of realism, and are talking about end of 2007 (if at all).

fact is, even if the 2 parties agree on the evenig of 21st of january, it will be hard - greatly due to technical reasons - to get an solution in 2007 (and we ar talking just about the un, not the real indiependence, that has to be agreed bilateraly between the states).

on the other hand, there is the "kosovar people" and their western "allies" talking rubish for years. the first indiependence day was announced for 2005.

economic reality, military reality, political reality??? nah, who needs facts, when one has got a very big mouth and can´t keep it closed?

this headline should not say "EU" it should say "WOLFGANG P." the EU said no such thing.

Raso,
I agree with you when you speak about westerners that do not have a real job to do at home. Actually I cannot stand that kind of international bureaucrats enjoying lucrative earnings from managing international crisis often prolonged by themselves.
Nevertheless we should admit that the UE mission is already planned in detail.

You're right, Blag. Why go through this waiting period with Ahtisaari, only to have the EU suddenly say "Kosovo will be given limited independence"? Isn't that jumping the gun, AND making Ahtisaari's proposals irrelevant? Seems like EVERYBODY has their own predictions for Kosovo Province.

so massimo, then there isn´t a problem to give me a link for the budget of the eu-mission (that should start on 1st july --> LOL)?

where´s the 1 billion euro ("kosovos" trade-deficit per year) plus - well, let´s be generous and say the eu-mission and the nato-soldiers will cost "just" half a billion per year - 500 millions of euro.

where is it, where is the money/budget???

even if the world bank will pay generously the trade deficit, where´s the eu-budget?

"Petritsch rejected the idea of an ethnic partition and said the union will play a major role in containing ethnic violence in the southern Serbian province"
The EU is going to contain the violence? Somehow I doubt that. I'm sure everyone feels so much safer now...

Unfortunately everyone has predictions and notions of how Kosovo will end up but no one is asking the people of Kosovo. What happened to democracy? The West is plactating to a dillapitated and falling appart Russia who in turn is giving false hope to a suspended Serbia. In the end it is the Serbs and the Albanians who suffer, not the West. Why can't we just let the people on the ground decide? I don't understand why a Serb from Belgrade or Kragujevac could give a damn about Kosovo when it is a known fact that most Serbs from Serbia never visited nor do they intend to visit Kosovo. Even before the War only a small 5% of Serbs from Serbia actually visited the "birthplace of Serbdom" as they call it.
I think there should be a referendum called in the whole territory of Kosovo and the people should decide what happens!

There already was a referendum. Remember? And the whole of Serbia, including Kosovo, voted for the new constitution, stating Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Every solution that goes against this is a violation of the 1975 Helsinki Act!

Alban, you raise a very interesting point. Most Serbs have not gone to Kosovo, and probably never would given the current conditions. I personally know only one Serb who has been to Kosovo and he actually felt more commonality with an Albanian student in Pristina than with a Serb villager from Orahovac or Obilic. Your question of why Serbs would want to hold onto the land is important.

In my opinion, beyond historical connections (Greece is not connected to Constantinople, nor is Hungary connected to Transylvania), territorial integrity is vital to national sovereignty. Even if Belgrade offered complete and absolute autonomy to Kosovo while still holding onto the region even in symbolic forms, that would be acceptable. Once outside powers start fooling around with borders, national sovereignty becomes compromised. The Milosevic government tried this in the 1990s and it only brought the entire people (including Kosovo) international isolation and political decay. The overwhelming majority of Serbs, I think, have no problem letting the K-Albanians, and even P-Albanians for that matter, handle their own affairs, use their own language, practice their own local government. The sticking point are the borders and whether ethnic conflicts justify territorial dismemberment.

Yes Alex we all remember the referendum where serbian people voted for Kosova to be part of serbia. Just somehow the serbian government forgot to ask the Albanians what their plans are? And remember Alex they are the ones that live in Kosova or in Dardania as we called. Thanks

I read all your comments and I think they are interesting becuase some of you see things much differently than I and some 2 million other Albanians in Kosova and around the world. Time of hate, myth, and prejudism has passed. Kosova will get its independence (full or conditioned) soon or later. Then, after that, there is the long way to rebuild our and your economy - all by cooperating together and with other countries. This is the reality that you ought to realize and forget whether EU or US have budgets for the next mission in Kosova or what their politicians need to do. It is up to all of Albanians and Serbs to make their lives better. I believe my nation has realized this. I hope you are going to start realizing it soon too.

The Ahtisaari proposal is suuposed to be a replacement for the failed negotiations. The article mentions only what the Albanians are getting. It is unclear what the Serbs are getting. Or is the symbolic gesture of "limited" independence considered to be enough for them.
Petritsch is also repeating the old Contact Group mantra: no borders changed. But just like that infamous diplomatic club he is refusing to propose any solution for the problems of Kosovo's minorities.

Alex,
For your information, the referendum you speak of was considered to be highly flawed by the international community. For one, the Serb Gov't made no attempt to allow ALL the citizens of Kosova the chance to vote. This violation alone invalidated the "referendum". Or, if we look at it from another perspective, the fact that the Albanian citizens of Kosova were not allowed to vote confirms the fact that Kosova is not part of Serbia since all citizens must be given the chance to vote according to the Helsinki Act.

Either way Serbia is a loser!

Capish!!!

Fear not though, the sun will again shine tomorrow.

I just want to congratulate all Kosovo citizens to Kosovo Independence before hand because this is my last post on B92 about this issue because it is a closed issue as I see it and I am not motivated to waste more time on this.

I also wish that future discussion will be about building a free, prosperous and open Kosovo for all people in Kosovo and Europe.

Someone here mentioned that Russia is falling appart. That person clearly has no idea of how it is there. They have surpluses that the WEst can only dream of. They're really improved. Their crisis from the 1990s ended in 1998, and they've been booming ever since.

Alex, that's an insult to 2 million Albanians who never took part in that referendum!

It shows that in Kosovo you see only Serbs and therefore, 80,000 Serbs make that referendum legitimate for you.

An honest man, would aplogise for such a cruel statement.

Guys, if we spent as much time and energy dealing with real problems our people are facing in our respective countries (Kosovo and Serbia and yes I do consider Kosovo an independent country) such as unemployment, crime, poverty etc, we would be better off. Silly comments made by Blag and Raso are based more on wishful thinking than anything else.

It is interesting how some Serbians try to lecture the world about democracy and international law ignoring completely the fact that actually it is Serbia itself that violated some of the most basic democratic rights by initiating 6 different wars in Ex-Yugoslavia (where they killed more than 250 thousands Bosnians and about 10 thousands Kosovo Albanians, by the way these fact can be easily found in any major international organization). As a result, with the exception of Slovenia the region has become the poorest in Europe (Serbia and Kosovo being at the bottom within the region).

And guys making propaganda doesn’t work anymore as the international community is administering Kosovo and not Belgrade and therefore they know much better what is happening over there. In addition, the behaviour of Serbia (false statement, trying to rediculuse any politican that opposes is only convincing the international community more that Serbia has never had constructive way towards Kosovo

Limitied Independence under EU Adminstration for 7 years. Well that sounds like 7 years to enact a set of stpiluations for being granted full independence. Basically if these stpilulations are not meet then full independence will not be granted bck to square 1. I don't think the EU will be wasting money like the UN did in Kosovo because it is the blocks funds and they are really tight with there funds. The days of free wheeling and doing what you want are over. I am sure the Kosovo albanians will be wishing for the days of old. No more illegal traffiking, hanging wires on electric lines to steal power, actual building codes to follow when building homes. No more paying for governement tenders because the EU will be holding the purse strings. I said this before, be careful what you ask for because it might just come true.

Thank you for your comment Erik. Have a very nice life. I on the other hand will remain arguing for Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo and will do so for as long as i'm alive.

Domino

"...where they killed more than 250 thousands Bosnians and about 10 thousands Kosovo Albanians, by the way these fact can be easily found in any major international organization)"

Please beware that the ICTY own figures for the Bosnian civil-war show a figure in the region of 102,000 for 1992-95. The research project was conducted by the two population experts Ewa Tabeau and Jacub Bijak. The researchers estimate the number of killed civilian Muslims and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian serbs was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly Bosnian Muslims. On the Serb side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croat soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war. Also this was the result of 3 conflicts Serbs vs Croats & Muslims, Croats Vs Muslims and Muslim (Izetbegovic) Vs Muslim (Abdic)

Yes there was a great deal of exageration in the media on the reality of what happened. Fortunately the Truth has a way of coming out.

Also, please do your own research with the ICTY for Kosovo & Metohija and while you are at it you might find that the NATO bombardment caused greater loss of life then the real number attributable to all sides during 98-99 and this is often combined to make up the so called 10,000 it is not just Albanians who died but Serbs and equally the perpetrators are atributable to all sides.

I'm not sure who EriK is but I have not seen a post from him. Hopefully, this isn't one of those identity thieves who thinks he can assume my identity since I will never need to congratulate Kosovo on it's independence. I will welcome Kosovo back into Serbia at any time though.

J.Ham
I must admit that for the first time I almost entirely agree with you regarding your last comment except for when you say that "Albanians will be wishing for the days of old" where you are totaly wrong. We are actually sick with the days of old, we need days of new.

I especially like this part
"No more illegal traffiking, hanging wires on electric lines to steal power, actual building codes to follow when building homes.No more paying for governement tenders because the EU will be holding the purse strings" which in my book reads that EU will be putting
things in order and stopping corruption and crime and thats exactly what we need and of course not to forget independence :). Hope you're right.

In relation to W. Petritsch statement, it seems to me that we are heading towards a full independence from Serbia and a limited independence due to a temporary UE administration

What have I said all the time? Kosovo is de facto a conditional independent state and will soon be also de jure. For Albanians conditional independence is a compromise since they wanted independence without any prefix.

And the sun rises again after many days with anti-independence news here at B92.

The EU should have no say in this issue. The first thing that htey should do is to pay for their damages that they commited durring the bombing.

gotta love those western losers that would never get a real job at home and therefore are pushed away to the balkans or other places to play the big intellectuals.

austria pushed him away on a not so important job (where he can do much lesser harm than he did in the 2 post-bosnian states) and he is talking about how the eu (!) will behave. that there is still no money from the eu-member states for a mission that probably never will happen, doesn´t bother him at all. i hope he has informed all the member states about how they have to behave,lol.

even the "international crisis group", home of the maybe most quixotic anti-serbian weirdo´s is trying it - probably the first time - with a sense of realism, and are talking about end of 2007 (if at all).

fact is, even if the 2 parties agree on the evenig of 21st of january, it will be hard - greatly due to technical reasons - to get an solution in 2007 (and we ar talking just about the un, not the real indiependence, that has to be agreed bilateraly between the states).

on the other hand, there is the "kosovar people" and their western "allies" talking rubish for years. the first indiependence day was announced for 2005.

economic reality, military reality, political reality??? nah, who needs facts, when one has got a very big mouth and can´t keep it closed?

this headline should not say "EU" it should say "WOLFGANG P." the EU said no such thing.

Raso,
I agree with you when you speak about westerners that do not have a real job to do at home. Actually I cannot stand that kind of international bureaucrats enjoying lucrative earnings from managing international crisis often prolonged by themselves.
Nevertheless we should admit that the UE mission is already planned in detail.

You're right, Blag. Why go through this waiting period with Ahtisaari, only to have the EU suddenly say "Kosovo will be given limited independence"? Isn't that jumping the gun, AND making Ahtisaari's proposals irrelevant? Seems like EVERYBODY has their own predictions for Kosovo Province.

so massimo, then there isn´t a problem to give me a link for the budget of the eu-mission (that should start on 1st july --> LOL)?

where´s the 1 billion euro ("kosovos" trade-deficit per year) plus - well, let´s be generous and say the eu-mission and the nato-soldiers will cost "just" half a billion per year - 500 millions of euro.

where is it, where is the money/budget???

even if the world bank will pay generously the trade deficit, where´s the eu-budget?

"Petritsch rejected the idea of an ethnic partition and said the union will play a major role in containing ethnic violence in the southern Serbian province"
The EU is going to contain the violence? Somehow I doubt that. I'm sure everyone feels so much safer now...

Unfortunately everyone has predictions and notions of how Kosovo will end up but no one is asking the people of Kosovo. What happened to democracy? The West is plactating to a dillapitated and falling appart Russia who in turn is giving false hope to a suspended Serbia. In the end it is the Serbs and the Albanians who suffer, not the West. Why can't we just let the people on the ground decide? I don't understand why a Serb from Belgrade or Kragujevac could give a damn about Kosovo when it is a known fact that most Serbs from Serbia never visited nor do they intend to visit Kosovo. Even before the War only a small 5% of Serbs from Serbia actually visited the "birthplace of Serbdom" as they call it.
I think there should be a referendum called in the whole territory of Kosovo and the people should decide what happens!

There already was a referendum. Remember? And the whole of Serbia, including Kosovo, voted for the new constitution, stating Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Every solution that goes against this is a violation of the 1975 Helsinki Act!

Alban, you raise a very interesting point. Most Serbs have not gone to Kosovo, and probably never would given the current conditions. I personally know only one Serb who has been to Kosovo and he actually felt more commonality with an Albanian student in Pristina than with a Serb villager from Orahovac or Obilic. Your question of why Serbs would want to hold onto the land is important.

In my opinion, beyond historical connections (Greece is not connected to Constantinople, nor is Hungary connected to Transylvania), territorial integrity is vital to national sovereignty. Even if Belgrade offered complete and absolute autonomy to Kosovo while still holding onto the region even in symbolic forms, that would be acceptable. Once outside powers start fooling around with borders, national sovereignty becomes compromised. The Milosevic government tried this in the 1990s and it only brought the entire people (including Kosovo) international isolation and political decay. The overwhelming majority of Serbs, I think, have no problem letting the K-Albanians, and even P-Albanians for that matter, handle their own affairs, use their own language, practice their own local government. The sticking point are the borders and whether ethnic conflicts justify territorial dismemberment.

Yes Alex we all remember the referendum where serbian people voted for Kosova to be part of serbia. Just somehow the serbian government forgot to ask the Albanians what their plans are? And remember Alex they are the ones that live in Kosova or in Dardania as we called. Thanks

I read all your comments and I think they are interesting becuase some of you see things much differently than I and some 2 million other Albanians in Kosova and around the world. Time of hate, myth, and prejudism has passed. Kosova will get its independence (full or conditioned) soon or later. Then, after that, there is the long way to rebuild our and your economy - all by cooperating together and with other countries. This is the reality that you ought to realize and forget whether EU or US have budgets for the next mission in Kosova or what their politicians need to do. It is up to all of Albanians and Serbs to make their lives better. I believe my nation has realized this. I hope you are going to start realizing it soon too.

The Ahtisaari proposal is suuposed to be a replacement for the failed negotiations. The article mentions only what the Albanians are getting. It is unclear what the Serbs are getting. Or is the symbolic gesture of "limited" independence considered to be enough for them.
Petritsch is also repeating the old Contact Group mantra: no borders changed. But just like that infamous diplomatic club he is refusing to propose any solution for the problems of Kosovo's minorities.

Alex,
For your information, the referendum you speak of was considered to be highly flawed by the international community. For one, the Serb Gov't made no attempt to allow ALL the citizens of Kosova the chance to vote. This violation alone invalidated the "referendum". Or, if we look at it from another perspective, the fact that the Albanian citizens of Kosova were not allowed to vote confirms the fact that Kosova is not part of Serbia since all citizens must be given the chance to vote according to the Helsinki Act.

Either way Serbia is a loser!

Capish!!!

Fear not though, the sun will again shine tomorrow.

I just want to congratulate all Kosovo citizens to Kosovo Independence before hand because this is my last post on B92 about this issue because it is a closed issue as I see it and I am not motivated to waste more time on this.

I also wish that future discussion will be about building a free, prosperous and open Kosovo for all people in Kosovo and Europe.

Someone here mentioned that Russia is falling appart. That person clearly has no idea of how it is there. They have surpluses that the WEst can only dream of. They're really improved. Their crisis from the 1990s ended in 1998, and they've been booming ever since.

Alex, that's an insult to 2 million Albanians who never took part in that referendum!

It shows that in Kosovo you see only Serbs and therefore, 80,000 Serbs make that referendum legitimate for you.

An honest man, would aplogise for such a cruel statement.

Guys, if we spent as much time and energy dealing with real problems our people are facing in our respective countries (Kosovo and Serbia and yes I do consider Kosovo an independent country) such as unemployment, crime, poverty etc, we would be better off. Silly comments made by Blag and Raso are based more on wishful thinking than anything else.

It is interesting how some Serbians try to lecture the world about democracy and international law ignoring completely the fact that actually it is Serbia itself that violated some of the most basic democratic rights by initiating 6 different wars in Ex-Yugoslavia (where they killed more than 250 thousands Bosnians and about 10 thousands Kosovo Albanians, by the way these fact can be easily found in any major international organization). As a result, with the exception of Slovenia the region has become the poorest in Europe (Serbia and Kosovo being at the bottom within the region).

And guys making propaganda doesn’t work anymore as the international community is administering Kosovo and not Belgrade and therefore they know much better what is happening over there. In addition, the behaviour of Serbia (false statement, trying to rediculuse any politican that opposes is only convincing the international community more that Serbia has never had constructive way towards Kosovo

Limitied Independence under EU Adminstration for 7 years. Well that sounds like 7 years to enact a set of stpiluations for being granted full independence. Basically if these stpilulations are not meet then full independence will not be granted bck to square 1. I don't think the EU will be wasting money like the UN did in Kosovo because it is the blocks funds and they are really tight with there funds. The days of free wheeling and doing what you want are over. I am sure the Kosovo albanians will be wishing for the days of old. No more illegal traffiking, hanging wires on electric lines to steal power, actual building codes to follow when building homes. No more paying for governement tenders because the EU will be holding the purse strings. I said this before, be careful what you ask for because it might just come true.

Thank you for your comment Erik. Have a very nice life. I on the other hand will remain arguing for Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo and will do so for as long as i'm alive.

Domino

"...where they killed more than 250 thousands Bosnians and about 10 thousands Kosovo Albanians, by the way these fact can be easily found in any major international organization)"

Please beware that the ICTY own figures for the Bosnian civil-war show a figure in the region of 102,000 for 1992-95. The research project was conducted by the two population experts Ewa Tabeau and Jacub Bijak. The researchers estimate the number of killed civilian Muslims and Croats to be around 38,000, while the number of killed civilian serbs was about 16,700. Among military personnel, the researchers think close to 28,000 people were killed in the government army, mostly Bosnian Muslims. On the Serb side, 14,000 soldiers were killed, while a bit over 6,000 Bosnian Croat soldiers lost their lives because of actions of war. Also this was the result of 3 conflicts Serbs vs Croats & Muslims, Croats Vs Muslims and Muslim (Izetbegovic) Vs Muslim (Abdic)

Yes there was a great deal of exageration in the media on the reality of what happened. Fortunately the Truth has a way of coming out.

Also, please do your own research with the ICTY for Kosovo & Metohija and while you are at it you might find that the NATO bombardment caused greater loss of life then the real number attributable to all sides during 98-99 and this is often combined to make up the so called 10,000 it is not just Albanians who died but Serbs and equally the perpetrators are atributable to all sides.

I'm not sure who EriK is but I have not seen a post from him. Hopefully, this isn't one of those identity thieves who thinks he can assume my identity since I will never need to congratulate Kosovo on it's independence. I will welcome Kosovo back into Serbia at any time though.

J.Ham
I must admit that for the first time I almost entirely agree with you regarding your last comment except for when you say that "Albanians will be wishing for the days of old" where you are totaly wrong. We are actually sick with the days of old, we need days of new.

I especially like this part
"No more illegal traffiking, hanging wires on electric lines to steal power, actual building codes to follow when building homes.No more paying for governement tenders because the EU will be holding the purse strings" which in my book reads that EU will be putting
things in order and stopping corruption and crime and thats exactly what we need and of course not to forget independence :). Hope you're right.