EU will back Ahtisaari’s proposal

the ICG are proponents of indep & obsessively anti-serb. 3 months ago when i first posted to this site, they said it was a done deal... today he thinks it will happen, but isn't so sure. this guy is nowhere.

i put greater value in the words of the german foreign minister: "neither side will get what it wants." that means no indep (the one thing you want). a 3rd way will be crafted & the final decision put off again. open your eyes people.

in the meantime S knows K will get development funds and it wants the lion's share. it also wants kosovo debt so to make it economically reliant upon S in order to scuttle indep if & when the issue comes up again.

In other words broad Autonomy

austria, spain, greece, russia, italy, portugal, hungary, czech, romania, norway, and now germany.

Blag,
I realize that you are a bit flustered over the German's remarks, but you have misquoted him.
He actually said "both sides will be disappointed over some points".

USA, United Kingdom,France, Albania, Slovenia, Macedonia, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Denmark, holland, Belgium, Turkey, Slovakia, Italy (remeber what the foriegn minister said), poland, and I could go on and on. Most of the ones that you mentioned blag, i am sure will do what US and UK say. Not because they like us and they hate the serbs, but because its the only viable solution. One thing is for sure: Serbia will never rule kosovo again. Thats reality, otherwise there will be another war and nobody want that. Serbs have tried everything for centuries to quell our fight and desire for independence, and they haven't succeeded, what makes you think that they will succeed in the now?

-Give up independence sounds good
-But I do not think Albanians would could

No matter what Albanians are the winners, with 90 % of the population they will do what ever they want, of course they are civilised and will respect the rights of minorities.

To J.Ham: I don’t know where you are from but your arguments are the same as nationalistic arguments used by Seselj. We had much more than broad autonomy during Yugoslavia and autonomy is a "non-topic". According to blag Serbia’s plan is to colonize Kosovo and ethnically cleans Kosovo. EU and Albanians will say: No thanks

To Albanians: Do not let some of the comments made by Serbs intimidate you. This is a part of their psychological war.

OK, so we've got a group of countries on one side opposed to independence, and another group in favor of independence. This says nothing of what these countries would actually DO if the opposing solution is offered. Are some people here offering up a kind of Triple Alliance vs. Triple Entente division of Europe over little itty bitty Kosovo Province? Will Sweden and Slovenia, both in some sort of favor for Kosovo's independence, suddenly boycott Serbian goods, secretly arm Albanian guerrilla movements, and withdraw their ambassadors from Belgrade. No. They will work with Serbia and an autonomous Kosovo. International stances are just that: where a country stands. It says nothing of what a country will actually do. Same goes for the EU. No doubt Kosovo will become some sort of EU vilayet, but even if it symbolically remains within Serbian territorial sovereignty, the EU will work within it.

stop the nonsense kresh. there will be no war. who will you fight? NATO? Russia? the EU? the UN? basically you will accept what you are told to accept or NATO will crush you. and the ssun will rise again tommorrow.

finally, no one will do what the US says because it has lost its foreign policy credibility.

my earlier points about air/ rail/ river blockade still stand... but are now less important b/c it is obvious that imposed classical independence has been ruled out. my strategy was in response to forceful recognition (and since that option is dead in the water... it is time to switch strategies). 95% of albanian posters on this site don't see that (mumbling the same tired, messy, overly emotional thinking).

of the albanian crowd, i think genc (and to some degree kreshnik) have hit upon the soundest argument (others make good points too, but english is not a first language to them). anyway, if i may... i think his argument is as follows:

kosovo may not get outright classical independence... but it will get more than enough sovereignty to practice de facto independence which will be formalized in the future (in other words, a fait accompli).

this is a big step down from 3 months ago... but let us not gloat in false victory. in my opinion, this is the strongest card albanians have to play (and hopefully they are politically mature enough to see it). i believe the window to do this is about 10-12 yrs (about the time serbia enters the EU). if the albanians don't make the right steps and prove themselves in that period, they'll never get independence.

the right steps means: sustained mature & visionary leadership (instead of the current fractious personality politics); stamping out corruption, the black market, and establishing strong rule of law (in a society not accustomed to it); making hard economic choices & sustaining these policies (and there will be many hard choices); embracing the serb community politically & socially (even when they are belligerant to you); confronting the anti-serb (and at times racist-violent) sentiment in it's own society loud & clear (and at likely personal cost); not allowing itself to get sucked into games by BG (and there will be many such games); having the presence of mind to counter serb exploitation the soft areas where K does not have sovreignty (and there will be much exploitation... both licit & illicit); not allowing itself to become too reliant upon serbia.

these are big steps and they require big people to pull them off. all socieies have such leaders in their mix. however, i wonder whether kosovo will be able to do all is in the next 10-12 years. this is a gargantuan task. no historical memory; no track record; an entire generation lacking new-age skills; corruption & a strong mafia; a troublesome clan system; radicalized psyches in the mix; unrealistic economic expectations (thinking salaries will go up; when in fact they will go down... to spur exports). unless the perfect man materializes and has a lot of luck on his side, i really don't think its likely. i don't think all this is possible in 50 yrs... let alone 10-12. everything is about "independence from..." and little about "independence for..."

what should serbia do? play smart and go for the long term victory... let them say what they want right now (it's just talk). a significant amount of the independence mentality will die down over time; in the meantime, get as much decentralization as possible and fund these serb enclaves to the max; make K reliant economically (take on kosovo debt, provide cheap electricity, offer most favored trade status, provide FDI for kosovo, etc); prosper economically at the fastest rate possible (the best defense against indep is a strong economically prosperous serbia... which it is on the way of becoming).

a race underway. he who wins the race... wins kosovo.

ready... set... go!

In other words: conditioned/supervised/name-it-as-you-want-independence. Both sides will not get what they asked for: classic independence for K; more-than-A-less-then-I for S (or 1+1=2).

Much ado about nothing. Just what we're hearing since longer than one year from now.

ICG anti-Serbian? It depends from one's point of view. To me they seem rather pro-Serbian sometimes (but I wouldn't pretend they are).

OOOO i am not a nationalist, only nationlist believes in one solution. If i am not mistaken does the albanians want kosovo only for themselves. They never mention the other ethnic minority in Kosovo. I guess the world is suppose to tremble because the albanians don't get what they want? Please OOOO don't call me a nationialist i believe in compromise but you don't. He who demands everything and choose the gun loses in the end. I hear alot of people threatened war but you really don't want a war. The world took in all the albanians before but i don't think it will be a repeat of 99. When this pie starts to cook it will be contained and there will not be a place to run to. The UN has no money house people in other countries just because they gamble on hoping this will happen so you can start a better life somewhere in Europe and they foot the bill no i don't think that will happen again. Safe bet is to negoitiate.

To whom it may concern,
Serbs trying to take over Kosovo is like Japan trying to invade the US. It is absurd that there are Serbs who still dream this impossible dream. Instead, if they love their country they should fix it so it will have future among democratic nations of Europe.
Today Serbia has one of the highest negative birth rates ,highest abortion rate in Europe, exploding crime syndicates left over from Milosevic era, more war crime criminals then any other nation and deep denial of horrible atrocities committed against others in region.
Kosovars and Albanians on the other hand have the most dynamic future oriented population in the region. Just like Jews after the WWII the Albanians are fast becoming affluent in education, politics, business and nation building. Today you can find Albanian scholars in every premium university or institute in the world. Their booming population is on asset for European Union that will need new generation workforce. Smart Serbs should start building bridges of friendship with Kosovars because they will need them sooner that they think. Kosovo has one of the riches land with billions and billions of dollars in underground deposits. Kosovars Diaspora spread around the world sends in billions to Kosovo to support their kin or to invest. Their Entrepreneurship and centuries of surviving harsh conditions under Turkish and Serbian rule has turned them into very capable people. Me, many other Americans and Europeans have seen the dramatic changes in Kosovo in the last seven years. We have seen a place and people rise from ashes of terrible war into a modern European Country. Unfortunately you don’t see this happening to often.
If united with Serbia and under EU policies with equal opportunities, Kosovars will rule the region. As statistic show clearly Serbs would become minorities in Serbia with Kosovo in it. I am sure that many Serbs are aware of it and this noise and huffing is just about taking part of Kosovo.

I agree, kresh stop the nonsense about war, you are in no position for fighting anyone.On the other hand, kosovo SHOULD get an independence -that's the only solution to the problem:serbia has lost it long ago,more than 90% of the people do not want serbia back.If that happens,it will show the the uselessness of any military, political intervention in any country. I hope that Kosovo will prove as the only example of UN, NATO, EU victory in Balkans.

let's go back a few years ago:how manny countries did even know where kosovo is, how manny did discuss kosovo independance, none!
so blag, now they do it and some support it actively!
Do you really think that i waited russia and china or germany and france accept kosovo to fight for my independance?
No i and my people did not !
So it is our determination to be independant that in fine matters and nothing else,just our determination to be independant!
and each generation of albanian had,has and will have this determination!

the ICG are proponents of indep & obsessively anti-serb. 3 months ago when i first posted to this site, they said it was a done deal... today he thinks it will happen, but isn't so sure. this guy is nowhere.

i put greater value in the words of the german foreign minister: "neither side will get what it wants." that means no indep (the one thing you want). a 3rd way will be crafted & the final decision put off again. open your eyes people.

in the meantime S knows K will get development funds and it wants the lion's share. it also wants kosovo debt so to make it economically reliant upon S in order to scuttle indep if & when the issue comes up again.

In other words broad Autonomy

austria, spain, greece, russia, italy, portugal, hungary, czech, romania, norway, and now germany.

Blag,
I realize that you are a bit flustered over the German's remarks, but you have misquoted him.
He actually said "both sides will be disappointed over some points".

USA, United Kingdom,France, Albania, Slovenia, Macedonia, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Denmark, holland, Belgium, Turkey, Slovakia, Italy (remeber what the foriegn minister said), poland, and I could go on and on. Most of the ones that you mentioned blag, i am sure will do what US and UK say. Not because they like us and they hate the serbs, but because its the only viable solution. One thing is for sure: Serbia will never rule kosovo again. Thats reality, otherwise there will be another war and nobody want that. Serbs have tried everything for centuries to quell our fight and desire for independence, and they haven't succeeded, what makes you think that they will succeed in the now?

-Give up independence sounds good
-But I do not think Albanians would could

No matter what Albanians are the winners, with 90 % of the population they will do what ever they want, of course they are civilised and will respect the rights of minorities.

To J.Ham: I don’t know where you are from but your arguments are the same as nationalistic arguments used by Seselj. We had much more than broad autonomy during Yugoslavia and autonomy is a "non-topic". According to blag Serbia’s plan is to colonize Kosovo and ethnically cleans Kosovo. EU and Albanians will say: No thanks

To Albanians: Do not let some of the comments made by Serbs intimidate you. This is a part of their psychological war.

OK, so we've got a group of countries on one side opposed to independence, and another group in favor of independence. This says nothing of what these countries would actually DO if the opposing solution is offered. Are some people here offering up a kind of Triple Alliance vs. Triple Entente division of Europe over little itty bitty Kosovo Province? Will Sweden and Slovenia, both in some sort of favor for Kosovo's independence, suddenly boycott Serbian goods, secretly arm Albanian guerrilla movements, and withdraw their ambassadors from Belgrade. No. They will work with Serbia and an autonomous Kosovo. International stances are just that: where a country stands. It says nothing of what a country will actually do. Same goes for the EU. No doubt Kosovo will become some sort of EU vilayet, but even if it symbolically remains within Serbian territorial sovereignty, the EU will work within it.

stop the nonsense kresh. there will be no war. who will you fight? NATO? Russia? the EU? the UN? basically you will accept what you are told to accept or NATO will crush you. and the ssun will rise again tommorrow.

finally, no one will do what the US says because it has lost its foreign policy credibility.

my earlier points about air/ rail/ river blockade still stand... but are now less important b/c it is obvious that imposed classical independence has been ruled out. my strategy was in response to forceful recognition (and since that option is dead in the water... it is time to switch strategies). 95% of albanian posters on this site don't see that (mumbling the same tired, messy, overly emotional thinking).

of the albanian crowd, i think genc (and to some degree kreshnik) have hit upon the soundest argument (others make good points too, but english is not a first language to them). anyway, if i may... i think his argument is as follows:

kosovo may not get outright classical independence... but it will get more than enough sovereignty to practice de facto independence which will be formalized in the future (in other words, a fait accompli).

this is a big step down from 3 months ago... but let us not gloat in false victory. in my opinion, this is the strongest card albanians have to play (and hopefully they are politically mature enough to see it). i believe the window to do this is about 10-12 yrs (about the time serbia enters the EU). if the albanians don't make the right steps and prove themselves in that period, they'll never get independence.

the right steps means: sustained mature & visionary leadership (instead of the current fractious personality politics); stamping out corruption, the black market, and establishing strong rule of law (in a society not accustomed to it); making hard economic choices & sustaining these policies (and there will be many hard choices); embracing the serb community politically & socially (even when they are belligerant to you); confronting the anti-serb (and at times racist-violent) sentiment in it's own society loud & clear (and at likely personal cost); not allowing itself to get sucked into games by BG (and there will be many such games); having the presence of mind to counter serb exploitation the soft areas where K does not have sovreignty (and there will be much exploitation... both licit & illicit); not allowing itself to become too reliant upon serbia.

these are big steps and they require big people to pull them off. all socieies have such leaders in their mix. however, i wonder whether kosovo will be able to do all is in the next 10-12 years. this is a gargantuan task. no historical memory; no track record; an entire generation lacking new-age skills; corruption & a strong mafia; a troublesome clan system; radicalized psyches in the mix; unrealistic economic expectations (thinking salaries will go up; when in fact they will go down... to spur exports). unless the perfect man materializes and has a lot of luck on his side, i really don't think its likely. i don't think all this is possible in 50 yrs... let alone 10-12. everything is about "independence from..." and little about "independence for..."

what should serbia do? play smart and go for the long term victory... let them say what they want right now (it's just talk). a significant amount of the independence mentality will die down over time; in the meantime, get as much decentralization as possible and fund these serb enclaves to the max; make K reliant economically (take on kosovo debt, provide cheap electricity, offer most favored trade status, provide FDI for kosovo, etc); prosper economically at the fastest rate possible (the best defense against indep is a strong economically prosperous serbia... which it is on the way of becoming).

a race underway. he who wins the race... wins kosovo.

ready... set... go!

In other words: conditioned/supervised/name-it-as-you-want-independence. Both sides will not get what they asked for: classic independence for K; more-than-A-less-then-I for S (or 1+1=2).

Much ado about nothing. Just what we're hearing since longer than one year from now.

ICG anti-Serbian? It depends from one's point of view. To me they seem rather pro-Serbian sometimes (but I wouldn't pretend they are).

OOOO i am not a nationalist, only nationlist believes in one solution. If i am not mistaken does the albanians want kosovo only for themselves. They never mention the other ethnic minority in Kosovo. I guess the world is suppose to tremble because the albanians don't get what they want? Please OOOO don't call me a nationialist i believe in compromise but you don't. He who demands everything and choose the gun loses in the end. I hear alot of people threatened war but you really don't want a war. The world took in all the albanians before but i don't think it will be a repeat of 99. When this pie starts to cook it will be contained and there will not be a place to run to. The UN has no money house people in other countries just because they gamble on hoping this will happen so you can start a better life somewhere in Europe and they foot the bill no i don't think that will happen again. Safe bet is to negoitiate.

To whom it may concern,
Serbs trying to take over Kosovo is like Japan trying to invade the US. It is absurd that there are Serbs who still dream this impossible dream. Instead, if they love their country they should fix it so it will have future among democratic nations of Europe.
Today Serbia has one of the highest negative birth rates ,highest abortion rate in Europe, exploding crime syndicates left over from Milosevic era, more war crime criminals then any other nation and deep denial of horrible atrocities committed against others in region.
Kosovars and Albanians on the other hand have the most dynamic future oriented population in the region. Just like Jews after the WWII the Albanians are fast becoming affluent in education, politics, business and nation building. Today you can find Albanian scholars in every premium university or institute in the world. Their booming population is on asset for European Union that will need new generation workforce. Smart Serbs should start building bridges of friendship with Kosovars because they will need them sooner that they think. Kosovo has one of the riches land with billions and billions of dollars in underground deposits. Kosovars Diaspora spread around the world sends in billions to Kosovo to support their kin or to invest. Their Entrepreneurship and centuries of surviving harsh conditions under Turkish and Serbian rule has turned them into very capable people. Me, many other Americans and Europeans have seen the dramatic changes in Kosovo in the last seven years. We have seen a place and people rise from ashes of terrible war into a modern European Country. Unfortunately you don’t see this happening to often.
If united with Serbia and under EU policies with equal opportunities, Kosovars will rule the region. As statistic show clearly Serbs would become minorities in Serbia with Kosovo in it. I am sure that many Serbs are aware of it and this noise and huffing is just about taking part of Kosovo.

I agree, kresh stop the nonsense about war, you are in no position for fighting anyone.On the other hand, kosovo SHOULD get an independence -that's the only solution to the problem:serbia has lost it long ago,more than 90% of the people do not want serbia back.If that happens,it will show the the uselessness of any military, political intervention in any country. I hope that Kosovo will prove as the only example of UN, NATO, EU victory in Balkans.

let's go back a few years ago:how manny countries did even know where kosovo is, how manny did discuss kosovo independance, none!
so blag, now they do it and some support it actively!
Do you really think that i waited russia and china or germany and france accept kosovo to fight for my independance?
No i and my people did not !
So it is our determination to be independant that in fine matters and nothing else,just our determination to be independant!
and each generation of albanian had,has and will have this determination!