There is one thing I really do not understand. Why not letting Kosovo be independent because of the fear of Ossetia or Taiwan? Why there should be one state and not many states if all the parts of the country do not agree? If people do not want to live together, why force them into doing that?
Actualy, neutral has a very good point. Here is the definition of "genocide" as preseted by its inventor Dr. Lemkin:
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"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups."
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As you all know the concept of "genocide" has been included under international law, especially under a UN resolution that came into force on January 12 1951. That resolution is a classic example of what people like to call "international law".
This resolution provides that the UN and UNSC is bound by law to protect populations from genocide.
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In 1999 the UNSC did not want to classify what was happening in Kosovo as "genocide" because it would force all members of the UN to act and stop it.
Therefore, the US and most of the civilised world decided to implement the UN resolution by themselves.
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Having in mind that genocide was commited and the UN in obligated to protect us from it. Then one may argue that we still need protection and the best way to get that protection is to govern ourselves in our own country.
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If i were representing Kosovo at the UN i would simply claim that Serbia forfeited its right to territorial integrity the moment it commited genocide against the Kosovo Albanians.
Just because someone claims to be both Serbian and Albanian does not mean they are Neutral when their opinion is clearly biased toward one party. I guess I should explain this in plain English. Use the name you were given, not one that hides who you are or makes you look like you are not taking sides when, in fact, you are.
This source you quote is dated November 1999, from Institute of War & Peace. The IWPR can hardly be referred to as a balanced and reliable source, but thats another matter.
The statistics mentioned in this report by Del Ponte are PRELIMINARY (meaning assumed), and were not confirmed. The numbers were based on the presumptions of the death toll. Also the report was published prior to forensic teams having fully scoured the fields of Kosovo (Nov 1999). Additionally, the statistics were based on reports from Albanians. If anyone is interested enough, have a read through the report and come up with your own conclusion. Nuff said
You quoted 1999 NATO sources? The same people who told the whole world there was undeniable evidence that 100,000 Albanians were killed by Serb forces. And the same people who actually bombed Serbia! And I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here? Please, don't insult my intelligence.
In regards to the UN report i quoted previously, let my fingers do a bit of walking and i will provid you with the link in my next post.
There had been a lot of speculation about the number of people killed in Kosovo, she went on. Some people had expected the Tribunal to provide the definitive answer, but her task was not to prepare a complete list of war casualties; it was rather to gather evidence relevant to criminal charges. Her initial focus, understandably, had been to investigate those places listed as crime scenes in the indictment against President Slobodan Milosevic and other leaders. Her work had expanded beyond that investigation, but it was not her mission to compile a complete census of deaths.
Nevertheless, she said, her staff had collected some relevant statistics, given that it might be some time before all of the evidence was presented before a court, and given the legitimate public interest in the nature of her findings in the meantime. She had received reports of 529 gravesites, including those where exposed bodies had been found. As of today, approximately one third of those gravesites had been examined, and work had been completed at 195 sites. In total, 4,266 bodies had reportedly been buried in those sites. To date, 2,108 bodies had been exhumed.
To a series of follow-up questions concerning the findings, Mr. Blewitt said more than 500 sites had been associated with the 4,000 bodies. He had only completed examination of 195. Estimates of 11,000 bodies had been derived from news reports, including an estimate by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) of some 10,000 victims.
Asked if all the victims found so far had been ethnic Albanians, the Chief Prosecutor said yes, most had been Kosovo Albanians, but she had indications that numbers of other ethnic groups would be found.
Im sorry but i dont speak understand Italian. If you can kindly translate
If you think the report by the UN is a lie, you best take it up with them. I didnt produce the report.
Its funny how you simply dismiss proven facts as lies, and then produce statements which are nothing more than your own personal views. You discredit an official UN report, and then rattle off some numbers and percentages which i can only conclude, you made up. If you are going to quote statistics, please provide some proof. Im sorry, but i can't just take your word for it.
I suggest you let go of the 'genocide' thing, its really becoming a bit ridiculous.
I think it is now more than obvious that you are anything but Neutral.
Eric say, "I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks".
Well Eric, I come from a mixed Serbo-Albo marriage!!!
Philip: The real estate law prohibiting Albanians from buying immovable property existed.If you are not aware of it; that is not my problem. You don't have to believe me.
Secondly: there was no boycott; (in fact there was but its duration was only ONE single september day),K-Albanians were fired collectivly. I admit, there were some that willingly resigned but only in small percentage.
Pappy: Italians says,"Ce non e vero e ben trovato". There were more than 3000 (threethousand) K-Albanians missing after the war not counting the deads alreday buried individually or collectively. In the centre of Prishtina, you can see photos of at least still 500 people only from town of Gjakova still missing. Serbia brought back to Kosovo almost 2000 dead bodies.
There are from 900-1000 Serbs killed of missing. So, to say that only 2000 people died in total and quoting UN as the source of this; it is a glaring example of LIE.
Pappy says, "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result".
Well, you can't just say , I am sorry that Serbia systematically killed your family and burned your house, took off your right of having an education and employment for a decade, raped more than 2000 of your women, deported a milion of you'.
Pappy; Look at the legal definition of genocide. You think that it isn't a genocide if they let you live? It is much more than that.
The case of the Hungarians in Romania and the Hungarians in Vojvodina provide an excellent example of two ethnicities living side by side without killing each other. It also begs the question: Why didn't the Serbs attempt to ethnically cleanse Vojvodina? Could it because the Hungarians and other minorities left in the newly formed countries accepted that the borders drawn up at the end of the Wars were agreed upon and didn't think that violence would recreate the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Maybe the Albanians should also accept that they were on the losing side of the war and, thus, lost Kosovo, which was only united with Albania through the Ottoman Empire. Albanians should also accept that there are no empires left and that the dream of a Greater Albania is also dead. I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks.
I haven't heard about this real-estate law before.
The K-Albs weren't fired. There was a boycott - a mass resignation of education nd health workers – all Kosovo Albanians. This was not because their employment was terminated, but because the secessionist leadership called for their boycott of the Serbian state, since this was the only way they could organise the so-called parallel state.
Also Serbia and Yugoslavia had the right to defend itself from the KLA. Not sure where you get these figures from.
The death of innocent civilians is always regretable, regardless of their nationality, but we must distinguish the difference between concrete facts, and innuendo and hearsay.
The official UN statistics of the number of dead as a result of the 1998-1999 hostilities is just over 2,000. This includes both Albanians and Serbs, combatant and civilian. These are UN statistics, and are openly available for anyone with enough interest. Until this figure changes for any other reasons, other than mere accusations, so it will remain.
The fact is, forensic scientists found comparatively little work in Kosovo. This is not being cold hearted, or being blinded by "Serb propaganda" (i myself am not a Serb), but rather just seeing the clearer picture and not allowing my vision to be distorted by highly dubious, and unconfirmed allegations. I tend to rely on facts, rather than swallow anything the media throws at me. The media is in most cases of conflict an advocate, rather than a neutral observer. This is nothing new as history will prove.
Any unlawful killings which occured in Kosovo, should be dealt with appropriately. Appropriately meaning, those responsible should face justice, as is the norm. This has happened in many cases and is still in process, and additionaly the previous government has been removed, by its own people. It is not appropriate, or comprehensible, to tear away a peice of land from a sovereign nation and hand it over to an minority ethnic group, which has long been known for its seperatist aspirations, because of the actions of a Serb minority. For you to state that the Serbs tried to 'annihalate' the Albanians is provocative rhetoric, and nothing more. I am quite certain that if it was the goal of the Serbian army to annihalate the Albanian population, they would have done so. The Serbs have never been known for their softly softly approach.
People pay very little attention to statistics, but they tell quite a story. Statistically, there are more Albanians living in Kosovo today than there were in 1999, therefore the claim of genocide can only do the Albanian cause damage, as it is obviously far fetched and can only be viewed as tastless propaganda.
What the Albanains are claiming is in fact, victims compensation. "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result". The world does not operate in this way, if it did, the world would be in constant conflict.
first point: there is no such law that you speak of ("killing own people law"). if so 1945 germany would have been dismembered also. this is an emotional appeal, not a law.
second point, yes you are correct, if they don't want to be governed this is a problem for serbia, but serbia can then demand equivalent compensation/ concessions rather than be stripped of its territory without its permission.
third point: not wanting to be governed is precedent setting. republika srpska and others can also ask the same... causing deep international disruption.
fourth point: K is economically reliant upon serbia for thrufare and would be unwise to antagonize serbia.
Who in the right state of mind thinks that Serbia and Serbs will be able to coexist with Albanians and Kosovo, and having Kosovo as part of Serbia? Many of you are ready to bring up history into your arguments. Have you read the memorandums written by the Serbian Academy of Sciences that have provided the Serbian State with a road map how to rid Kosovo of Albanians? It's a good thing to respect the history and study it but to me it seems that quite a few Serbs are stuck in 1389 and don't see a way out of it. Blaming the past for where you are now might make you feel better, but will not change anything. Regardless of what arguments you make up, or who is on board with Serbia's claims, you are not going to be able to keep a majority of people isolated and oppressed just because you claim to be respecting international law. International law was broken long time ago. The day when your president sent the military and police and thugs to the streets of Kosovo. The day when my father along with thousands others were fired from their jobs only because of who they were. International Law was broken the day when the doors to my school were locked and the only way to get in was to learn Serbian. You are talking about international law. What about HUMAN RIGHTS isn't that part of INTERNATIONAL LAW? If the world had listened to your claims about the International Law then Bosnia would still be part of Serbia after Serbian STATE massacred thousands of civilians there. OH WAIT maybe it had the right to do so because massacring of civilians to protect sovereignty is part of International Law. WAKE UP it's not 1389 it's 2006.
Pappy: If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that.
You are right. This statement would have been valid if spoken in 1988. But, on the other hand, no provision of I-Law supports any Sovereign Country in KILLING its own inhabitants; on the contrary, it stricly prohibits that. Once you do that; then you can't appeal to that legal principle. When you start killing your own citizens, civilians, children, women, elderly people; you pay a price for that. I am just transmiting the Law. Don't kill the messenger.
You say: Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases?
Which other contry in the world tried to annihilate a certain community among its own citizens?
I can tell you that Serbia didn't distinguish armed from unarmed people. Look at the Albanian victims; 98% are civilians. There were cases when all MALES of a village (inhabited by Albanians) were executed by Serbian Police, Army or others.
Philip: the list of international laws that Serbia violated before and during 1998?
Serbia promulgated a law prohibiting Albanians from buying real-estates from Serbs. Fired more than 85% of K-Albanians from their jobs. Expelled Albanians from their Secondary Schools and Prishtina University. In 1998 a lot of different para-military forces were operating in kosovo and started killing people.
Judging from your comments, you dont appear to be very neutral at all
The fact that 2 million Albanians live in Kosovo, a point Albanians raise all too often, is irrelavant. If this is the main rationale behind the forcible annexation of a territory from a sovereign state, it will open up a pandoras box world wide. To argue any otherwise is ignorant and near sighted.
If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that. Therefore, citing International law to dismiss any future seperatist aspirations in other regions, will be highly hypocritical to say the least. The fact that international law has been violated has already set a precedent. Additionally, if the main reason for granting independence is ethnic majority status, this can also be applied elsewhere in the world. Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases? I
International law, or other, is not selective. It cannot be cut an pasted, or simply disregarded, depending on objectives. Now, this is speaking from a legal perspective, and it is a fact which is obviously irrelevant to the pro-independence camp. It appears their argument is based on emotion, and riding the anti-Serb phenomenon wave, which now appears to have washed ashore. 2007 is just round the corner, whatever will be, will be . . . but hopefully it won't be, 'independance' that is
3ORAH: Even if Serbia gets all the countries in its loud corner; Serbia can't disregard and ignore the will of 2 milion K-Albanians. Would U like to see a K-Albanian for Serbia's Prime Minister? An Albanian to represent Serbia at the UN and in the world?
The point I was making was that "thousands" were killed in 1998 which is simply not true. In 1998 Serbia was part of Yugoslavia and not a state in its own right. In 1998 Kosovo was (and still is) a province of Serbia. Which international law(s) do you believe were broken by Yugoslavia in 1998?
First let me say that Sidi has nothing constructive to bring to this discussion in my opinion and hopefully is not a reflection of what ALL the Albanians in Kosovo are like. Secondly, more and more countries are taking
Serbias side in this conflict. Every week you hear of more countries supporting Serbia's right to Kosovo. There has been enough injustice done to the Serbs and enough is enough!! The rest of the world is waking up and the Albanian dream is OVER!
Philip; Srbia was a STATE; therefore, she was a subject of I-Law, Kosovo was never a country; therefore, she wasn't a subject of I-Law, but in order for you to understand this, you must have some knowledge on International law. Srbia committed the crimes through State Police and Army and as such, Srbia bears responsibility.
I think its disgusting that all the pro Independence Albanians (many hiding behind false names and identities?) on this site are so rude about Romania? You sound as if you are preaching a racial supremacy ideal. Romania and Romanians are not filth. They are people from the region and thus should be heard. Certainly over the far away puppet masters of America and Britain. Independence for Kosovo and Metohija will affect the Balkans... in will matter little on the streets of London and New York.
And there is also Vojvodina in Serbia where half the people are Hungarian. Autonomy seems to work for many minorites. Also there are Albanians in Macedonia. There could be trade among and cultural relationships amongst the different minorities as the Kurds have with each other. Diplomacy and reason need apply!
Aldrin you said this "people believe what they want to believe" and you also said this "Serbians BROKE the international low(sic) when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive". Looks like the maxim is applicable to yourself too.
So, for some of you it means that if there is a International law, it shouuld stay like that for ages. Laws are made to be changed by people, and they shall be changed according to the needs of people and groups of people, there is no law that can stop self- determination of KOSOVARS.
In the end: WHO IS ROMANIA for her voice to be heard, what factor in this game is Romania. Nothing.
I am surprised how none of you didn’t get it ,now I go back to Clintons words “ people believe what they want to believe” and you guys live on denial .Here you go read this first’ “However, I said this many times, that there is a greater possibility that Kosovo will become independent. Every citizen knows that, and I have no right to try to fool the citizens, I have no right to violate the rights of the citizens. They are aware of the situation, but I will fight until the last moment to for this not to happen.” Tadić said.
Its not disrespecting any country or nation but, you keep counting on Russia and other countries that you don’t like them in the first place .Serbians BROKE the international low when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive ,and since 1945 persecuting Albanians ,then was the time when international low was violated big time, and now that we do not want to be part of Serbia any longer. Another think is ;If you go somewhere and you find a cradle , it doesn’t mean that you where born there, just raised .So it’s time to start respecting Kosovo that embraced you and kept you for so long .but never forget, everything has and end , so this is your end .You must stop with this non sense arguments otherwise soon there will be only BEOGRADSI PASHALLAK .
"Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
(Sidi, 17 December 2006, 15:16)"
Sidi,
There is no need to offend other countries. These are internationally recognized sovereign countries, something that Kosovo has yet to attain, if it ever will. The majority of UN members are like these countries, and to be able to enter the UN General Assembly, Kosovo will need the votes of these very countries that you are belittling. But first Kosovo must survive the Security Council -- don't expect this anytime soon with Russia and China. This is the real situation.
No sidi. You keep on dreaming that you can take land that is not yours. I bet if those countries you named - backed Kosovo and Metohija's independence - you would instead be praising them.
Slovenia and Israel are now also on board with Serbia not to mention China and Russia. Spain used to be the biggest supporter of Kosovo and now well....... :)
Romanians with this mentality will not stay long in EU ,Whenwe all know their acceptance in EU will be conditionally as they improve conditions for Hungarians in Covasna and Hargita and also around the contry Sibiu Cluj Brasova.What is Basescu thinking ,If doesn’t go well in EU we still can go back to Russia where we use to be and Serbia then still well help us with blue jens, and chouwing gum,actually that’s not a very bad tactics
what matters most is the actual result and since the Ahtisarri "proposal" will no longer happen till February everthing is possible. Like the Late Britsh Prime Minister Harold Wilson famously remarked, "In politics, a week is a long time." Serbia still has 2 months before the talks even begin - that's plenty.
Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
Romania has 1.5 million Hungarians, so they don't want a precedent to be set or to inspire the Romanian Hungarians. That I believe explains their position, as well as Spain which has the Basques and Catalonia.
Romania has 1.5 million Hungarians, so they don't want a precedent to be set or to inspire the Romanian Hungarians. That I believe explains their position, as well as Spain which has the Basques and Catalonia.
Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
what matters most is the actual result and since the Ahtisarri "proposal" will no longer happen till February everthing is possible. Like the Late Britsh Prime Minister Harold Wilson famously remarked, "In politics, a week is a long time." Serbia still has 2 months before the talks even begin - that's plenty.
Romanians with this mentality will not stay long in EU ,Whenwe all know their acceptance in EU will be conditionally as they improve conditions for Hungarians in Covasna and Hargita and also around the contry Sibiu Cluj Brasova.What is Basescu thinking ,If doesn’t go well in EU we still can go back to Russia where we use to be and Serbia then still well help us with blue jens, and chouwing gum,actually that’s not a very bad tactics
No sidi. You keep on dreaming that you can take land that is not yours. I bet if those countries you named - backed Kosovo and Metohija's independence - you would instead be praising them.
Slovenia and Israel are now also on board with Serbia not to mention China and Russia. Spain used to be the biggest supporter of Kosovo and now well....... :)
"Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
(Sidi, 17 December 2006, 15:16)"
Sidi,
There is no need to offend other countries. These are internationally recognized sovereign countries, something that Kosovo has yet to attain, if it ever will. The majority of UN members are like these countries, and to be able to enter the UN General Assembly, Kosovo will need the votes of these very countries that you are belittling. But first Kosovo must survive the Security Council -- don't expect this anytime soon with Russia and China. This is the real situation.
I am surprised how none of you didn’t get it ,now I go back to Clintons words “ people believe what they want to believe” and you guys live on denial .Here you go read this first’ “However, I said this many times, that there is a greater possibility that Kosovo will become independent. Every citizen knows that, and I have no right to try to fool the citizens, I have no right to violate the rights of the citizens. They are aware of the situation, but I will fight until the last moment to for this not to happen.” Tadić said.
Its not disrespecting any country or nation but, you keep counting on Russia and other countries that you don’t like them in the first place .Serbians BROKE the international low when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive ,and since 1945 persecuting Albanians ,then was the time when international low was violated big time, and now that we do not want to be part of Serbia any longer. Another think is ;If you go somewhere and you find a cradle , it doesn’t mean that you where born there, just raised .So it’s time to start respecting Kosovo that embraced you and kept you for so long .but never forget, everything has and end , so this is your end .You must stop with this non sense arguments otherwise soon there will be only BEOGRADSI PASHALLAK .
Aldrin you said this "people believe what they want to believe" and you also said this "Serbians BROKE the international low(sic) when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive". Looks like the maxim is applicable to yourself too.
So, for some of you it means that if there is a International law, it shouuld stay like that for ages. Laws are made to be changed by people, and they shall be changed according to the needs of people and groups of people, there is no law that can stop self- determination of KOSOVARS.
In the end: WHO IS ROMANIA for her voice to be heard, what factor in this game is Romania. Nothing.
I think its disgusting that all the pro Independence Albanians (many hiding behind false names and identities?) on this site are so rude about Romania? You sound as if you are preaching a racial supremacy ideal. Romania and Romanians are not filth. They are people from the region and thus should be heard. Certainly over the far away puppet masters of America and Britain. Independence for Kosovo and Metohija will affect the Balkans... in will matter little on the streets of London and New York.
And there is also Vojvodina in Serbia where half the people are Hungarian. Autonomy seems to work for many minorites. Also there are Albanians in Macedonia. There could be trade among and cultural relationships amongst the different minorities as the Kurds have with each other. Diplomacy and reason need apply!
Philip; Srbia was a STATE; therefore, she was a subject of I-Law, Kosovo was never a country; therefore, she wasn't a subject of I-Law, but in order for you to understand this, you must have some knowledge on International law. Srbia committed the crimes through State Police and Army and as such, Srbia bears responsibility.
First let me say that Sidi has nothing constructive to bring to this discussion in my opinion and hopefully is not a reflection of what ALL the Albanians in Kosovo are like. Secondly, more and more countries are taking
Serbias side in this conflict. Every week you hear of more countries supporting Serbia's right to Kosovo. There has been enough injustice done to the Serbs and enough is enough!! The rest of the world is waking up and the Albanian dream is OVER!
3ORAH: Even if Serbia gets all the countries in its loud corner; Serbia can't disregard and ignore the will of 2 milion K-Albanians. Would U like to see a K-Albanian for Serbia's Prime Minister? An Albanian to represent Serbia at the UN and in the world?
The point I was making was that "thousands" were killed in 1998 which is simply not true. In 1998 Serbia was part of Yugoslavia and not a state in its own right. In 1998 Kosovo was (and still is) a province of Serbia. Which international law(s) do you believe were broken by Yugoslavia in 1998?
Philip: the list of international laws that Serbia violated before and during 1998?
Serbia promulgated a law prohibiting Albanians from buying real-estates from Serbs. Fired more than 85% of K-Albanians from their jobs. Expelled Albanians from their Secondary Schools and Prishtina University. In 1998 a lot of different para-military forces were operating in kosovo and started killing people.
Judging from your comments, you dont appear to be very neutral at all
The fact that 2 million Albanians live in Kosovo, a point Albanians raise all too often, is irrelavant. If this is the main rationale behind the forcible annexation of a territory from a sovereign state, it will open up a pandoras box world wide. To argue any otherwise is ignorant and near sighted.
If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that. Therefore, citing International law to dismiss any future seperatist aspirations in other regions, will be highly hypocritical to say the least. The fact that international law has been violated has already set a precedent. Additionally, if the main reason for granting independence is ethnic majority status, this can also be applied elsewhere in the world. Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases? I
International law, or other, is not selective. It cannot be cut an pasted, or simply disregarded, depending on objectives. Now, this is speaking from a legal perspective, and it is a fact which is obviously irrelevant to the pro-independence camp. It appears their argument is based on emotion, and riding the anti-Serb phenomenon wave, which now appears to have washed ashore. 2007 is just round the corner, whatever will be, will be . . . but hopefully it won't be, 'independance' that is
Pappy: If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that.
You are right. This statement would have been valid if spoken in 1988. But, on the other hand, no provision of I-Law supports any Sovereign Country in KILLING its own inhabitants; on the contrary, it stricly prohibits that. Once you do that; then you can't appeal to that legal principle. When you start killing your own citizens, civilians, children, women, elderly people; you pay a price for that. I am just transmiting the Law. Don't kill the messenger.
You say: Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases?
Which other contry in the world tried to annihilate a certain community among its own citizens?
I can tell you that Serbia didn't distinguish armed from unarmed people. Look at the Albanian victims; 98% are civilians. There were cases when all MALES of a village (inhabited by Albanians) were executed by Serbian Police, Army or others.
Who in the right state of mind thinks that Serbia and Serbs will be able to coexist with Albanians and Kosovo, and having Kosovo as part of Serbia? Many of you are ready to bring up history into your arguments. Have you read the memorandums written by the Serbian Academy of Sciences that have provided the Serbian State with a road map how to rid Kosovo of Albanians? It's a good thing to respect the history and study it but to me it seems that quite a few Serbs are stuck in 1389 and don't see a way out of it. Blaming the past for where you are now might make you feel better, but will not change anything. Regardless of what arguments you make up, or who is on board with Serbia's claims, you are not going to be able to keep a majority of people isolated and oppressed just because you claim to be respecting international law. International law was broken long time ago. The day when your president sent the military and police and thugs to the streets of Kosovo. The day when my father along with thousands others were fired from their jobs only because of who they were. International Law was broken the day when the doors to my school were locked and the only way to get in was to learn Serbian. You are talking about international law. What about HUMAN RIGHTS isn't that part of INTERNATIONAL LAW? If the world had listened to your claims about the International Law then Bosnia would still be part of Serbia after Serbian STATE massacred thousands of civilians there. OH WAIT maybe it had the right to do so because massacring of civilians to protect sovereignty is part of International Law. WAKE UP it's not 1389 it's 2006.
first point: there is no such law that you speak of ("killing own people law"). if so 1945 germany would have been dismembered also. this is an emotional appeal, not a law.
second point, yes you are correct, if they don't want to be governed this is a problem for serbia, but serbia can then demand equivalent compensation/ concessions rather than be stripped of its territory without its permission.
third point: not wanting to be governed is precedent setting. republika srpska and others can also ask the same... causing deep international disruption.
fourth point: K is economically reliant upon serbia for thrufare and would be unwise to antagonize serbia.
The death of innocent civilians is always regretable, regardless of their nationality, but we must distinguish the difference between concrete facts, and innuendo and hearsay.
The official UN statistics of the number of dead as a result of the 1998-1999 hostilities is just over 2,000. This includes both Albanians and Serbs, combatant and civilian. These are UN statistics, and are openly available for anyone with enough interest. Until this figure changes for any other reasons, other than mere accusations, so it will remain.
The fact is, forensic scientists found comparatively little work in Kosovo. This is not being cold hearted, or being blinded by "Serb propaganda" (i myself am not a Serb), but rather just seeing the clearer picture and not allowing my vision to be distorted by highly dubious, and unconfirmed allegations. I tend to rely on facts, rather than swallow anything the media throws at me. The media is in most cases of conflict an advocate, rather than a neutral observer. This is nothing new as history will prove.
Any unlawful killings which occured in Kosovo, should be dealt with appropriately. Appropriately meaning, those responsible should face justice, as is the norm. This has happened in many cases and is still in process, and additionaly the previous government has been removed, by its own people. It is not appropriate, or comprehensible, to tear away a peice of land from a sovereign nation and hand it over to an minority ethnic group, which has long been known for its seperatist aspirations, because of the actions of a Serb minority. For you to state that the Serbs tried to 'annihalate' the Albanians is provocative rhetoric, and nothing more. I am quite certain that if it was the goal of the Serbian army to annihalate the Albanian population, they would have done so. The Serbs have never been known for their softly softly approach.
People pay very little attention to statistics, but they tell quite a story. Statistically, there are more Albanians living in Kosovo today than there were in 1999, therefore the claim of genocide can only do the Albanian cause damage, as it is obviously far fetched and can only be viewed as tastless propaganda.
What the Albanains are claiming is in fact, victims compensation. "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result". The world does not operate in this way, if it did, the world would be in constant conflict.
I haven't heard about this real-estate law before.
The K-Albs weren't fired. There was a boycott - a mass resignation of education nd health workers – all Kosovo Albanians. This was not because their employment was terminated, but because the secessionist leadership called for their boycott of the Serbian state, since this was the only way they could organise the so-called parallel state.
Also Serbia and Yugoslavia had the right to defend itself from the KLA. Not sure where you get these figures from.
The case of the Hungarians in Romania and the Hungarians in Vojvodina provide an excellent example of two ethnicities living side by side without killing each other. It also begs the question: Why didn't the Serbs attempt to ethnically cleanse Vojvodina? Could it because the Hungarians and other minorities left in the newly formed countries accepted that the borders drawn up at the end of the Wars were agreed upon and didn't think that violence would recreate the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Maybe the Albanians should also accept that they were on the losing side of the war and, thus, lost Kosovo, which was only united with Albania through the Ottoman Empire. Albanians should also accept that there are no empires left and that the dream of a Greater Albania is also dead. I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks.
Philip: The real estate law prohibiting Albanians from buying immovable property existed.If you are not aware of it; that is not my problem. You don't have to believe me.
Secondly: there was no boycott; (in fact there was but its duration was only ONE single september day),K-Albanians were fired collectivly. I admit, there were some that willingly resigned but only in small percentage.
Pappy: Italians says,"Ce non e vero e ben trovato". There were more than 3000 (threethousand) K-Albanians missing after the war not counting the deads alreday buried individually or collectively. In the centre of Prishtina, you can see photos of at least still 500 people only from town of Gjakova still missing. Serbia brought back to Kosovo almost 2000 dead bodies.
There are from 900-1000 Serbs killed of missing. So, to say that only 2000 people died in total and quoting UN as the source of this; it is a glaring example of LIE.
Pappy says, "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result".
Well, you can't just say , I am sorry that Serbia systematically killed your family and burned your house, took off your right of having an education and employment for a decade, raped more than 2000 of your women, deported a milion of you'.
Pappy; Look at the legal definition of genocide. You think that it isn't a genocide if they let you live? It is much more than that.
Eric say, "I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks".
Well Eric, I come from a mixed Serbo-Albo marriage!!!
Im sorry but i dont speak understand Italian. If you can kindly translate
If you think the report by the UN is a lie, you best take it up with them. I didnt produce the report.
Its funny how you simply dismiss proven facts as lies, and then produce statements which are nothing more than your own personal views. You discredit an official UN report, and then rattle off some numbers and percentages which i can only conclude, you made up. If you are going to quote statistics, please provide some proof. Im sorry, but i can't just take your word for it.
I suggest you let go of the 'genocide' thing, its really becoming a bit ridiculous.
I think it is now more than obvious that you are anything but Neutral.
There had been a lot of speculation about the number of people killed in Kosovo, she went on. Some people had expected the Tribunal to provide the definitive answer, but her task was not to prepare a complete list of war casualties; it was rather to gather evidence relevant to criminal charges. Her initial focus, understandably, had been to investigate those places listed as crime scenes in the indictment against President Slobodan Milosevic and other leaders. Her work had expanded beyond that investigation, but it was not her mission to compile a complete census of deaths.
Nevertheless, she said, her staff had collected some relevant statistics, given that it might be some time before all of the evidence was presented before a court, and given the legitimate public interest in the nature of her findings in the meantime. She had received reports of 529 gravesites, including those where exposed bodies had been found. As of today, approximately one third of those gravesites had been examined, and work had been completed at 195 sites. In total, 4,266 bodies had reportedly been buried in those sites. To date, 2,108 bodies had been exhumed.
To a series of follow-up questions concerning the findings, Mr. Blewitt said more than 500 sites had been associated with the 4,000 bodies. He had only completed examination of 195. Estimates of 11,000 bodies had been derived from news reports, including an estimate by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) of some 10,000 victims.
Asked if all the victims found so far had been ethnic Albanians, the Chief Prosecutor said yes, most had been Kosovo Albanians, but she had indications that numbers of other ethnic groups would be found.
This source you quote is dated November 1999, from Institute of War & Peace. The IWPR can hardly be referred to as a balanced and reliable source, but thats another matter.
The statistics mentioned in this report by Del Ponte are PRELIMINARY (meaning assumed), and were not confirmed. The numbers were based on the presumptions of the death toll. Also the report was published prior to forensic teams having fully scoured the fields of Kosovo (Nov 1999). Additionally, the statistics were based on reports from Albanians. If anyone is interested enough, have a read through the report and come up with your own conclusion. Nuff said
You quoted 1999 NATO sources? The same people who told the whole world there was undeniable evidence that 100,000 Albanians were killed by Serb forces. And the same people who actually bombed Serbia! And I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here? Please, don't insult my intelligence.
In regards to the UN report i quoted previously, let my fingers do a bit of walking and i will provid you with the link in my next post.
Just because someone claims to be both Serbian and Albanian does not mean they are Neutral when their opinion is clearly biased toward one party. I guess I should explain this in plain English. Use the name you were given, not one that hides who you are or makes you look like you are not taking sides when, in fact, you are.
Actualy, neutral has a very good point. Here is the definition of "genocide" as preseted by its inventor Dr. Lemkin:
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"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups."
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As you all know the concept of "genocide" has been included under international law, especially under a UN resolution that came into force on January 12 1951. That resolution is a classic example of what people like to call "international law".
This resolution provides that the UN and UNSC is bound by law to protect populations from genocide.
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In 1999 the UNSC did not want to classify what was happening in Kosovo as "genocide" because it would force all members of the UN to act and stop it.
Therefore, the US and most of the civilised world decided to implement the UN resolution by themselves.
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Having in mind that genocide was commited and the UN in obligated to protect us from it. Then one may argue that we still need protection and the best way to get that protection is to govern ourselves in our own country.
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If i were representing Kosovo at the UN i would simply claim that Serbia forfeited its right to territorial integrity the moment it commited genocide against the Kosovo Albanians.
There is one thing I really do not understand. Why not letting Kosovo be independent because of the fear of Ossetia or Taiwan? Why there should be one state and not many states if all the parts of the country do not agree? If people do not want to live together, why force them into doing that?
Romania has 1.5 million Hungarians, so they don't want a precedent to be set or to inspire the Romanian Hungarians. That I believe explains their position, as well as Spain which has the Basques and Catalonia.
Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
what matters most is the actual result and since the Ahtisarri "proposal" will no longer happen till February everthing is possible. Like the Late Britsh Prime Minister Harold Wilson famously remarked, "In politics, a week is a long time." Serbia still has 2 months before the talks even begin - that's plenty.
Romanians with this mentality will not stay long in EU ,Whenwe all know their acceptance in EU will be conditionally as they improve conditions for Hungarians in Covasna and Hargita and also around the contry Sibiu Cluj Brasova.What is Basescu thinking ,If doesn’t go well in EU we still can go back to Russia where we use to be and Serbia then still well help us with blue jens, and chouwing gum,actually that’s not a very bad tactics
No sidi. You keep on dreaming that you can take land that is not yours. I bet if those countries you named - backed Kosovo and Metohija's independence - you would instead be praising them.
Slovenia and Israel are now also on board with Serbia not to mention China and Russia. Spain used to be the biggest supporter of Kosovo and now well....... :)
"Hey, on the bright side, Serbia now has three allies: Ghana, Argentina, and Romania. Perhaps in a couple of weeks you can get Swaziland and Namibia on board too. Then all you would need is the Zulu Nation, and Kosovo inside Serbia would be secure. Keep on campaiging!
(Sidi, 17 December 2006, 15:16)"
Sidi,
There is no need to offend other countries. These are internationally recognized sovereign countries, something that Kosovo has yet to attain, if it ever will. The majority of UN members are like these countries, and to be able to enter the UN General Assembly, Kosovo will need the votes of these very countries that you are belittling. But first Kosovo must survive the Security Council -- don't expect this anytime soon with Russia and China. This is the real situation.
I am surprised how none of you didn’t get it ,now I go back to Clintons words “ people believe what they want to believe” and you guys live on denial .Here you go read this first’ “However, I said this many times, that there is a greater possibility that Kosovo will become independent. Every citizen knows that, and I have no right to try to fool the citizens, I have no right to violate the rights of the citizens. They are aware of the situation, but I will fight until the last moment to for this not to happen.” Tadić said.
Its not disrespecting any country or nation but, you keep counting on Russia and other countries that you don’t like them in the first place .Serbians BROKE the international low when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive ,and since 1945 persecuting Albanians ,then was the time when international low was violated big time, and now that we do not want to be part of Serbia any longer. Another think is ;If you go somewhere and you find a cradle , it doesn’t mean that you where born there, just raised .So it’s time to start respecting Kosovo that embraced you and kept you for so long .but never forget, everything has and end , so this is your end .You must stop with this non sense arguments otherwise soon there will be only BEOGRADSI PASHALLAK .
Aldrin you said this "people believe what they want to believe" and you also said this "Serbians BROKE the international low(sic) when they killed thousands Albanians in 1998 offensive". Looks like the maxim is applicable to yourself too.
So, for some of you it means that if there is a International law, it shouuld stay like that for ages. Laws are made to be changed by people, and they shall be changed according to the needs of people and groups of people, there is no law that can stop self- determination of KOSOVARS.
In the end: WHO IS ROMANIA for her voice to be heard, what factor in this game is Romania. Nothing.
I think its disgusting that all the pro Independence Albanians (many hiding behind false names and identities?) on this site are so rude about Romania? You sound as if you are preaching a racial supremacy ideal. Romania and Romanians are not filth. They are people from the region and thus should be heard. Certainly over the far away puppet masters of America and Britain. Independence for Kosovo and Metohija will affect the Balkans... in will matter little on the streets of London and New York.
And there is also Vojvodina in Serbia where half the people are Hungarian. Autonomy seems to work for many minorites. Also there are Albanians in Macedonia. There could be trade among and cultural relationships amongst the different minorities as the Kurds have with each other. Diplomacy and reason need apply!
Philip; Srbia was a STATE; therefore, she was a subject of I-Law, Kosovo was never a country; therefore, she wasn't a subject of I-Law, but in order for you to understand this, you must have some knowledge on International law. Srbia committed the crimes through State Police and Army and as such, Srbia bears responsibility.
First let me say that Sidi has nothing constructive to bring to this discussion in my opinion and hopefully is not a reflection of what ALL the Albanians in Kosovo are like. Secondly, more and more countries are taking
Serbias side in this conflict. Every week you hear of more countries supporting Serbia's right to Kosovo. There has been enough injustice done to the Serbs and enough is enough!! The rest of the world is waking up and the Albanian dream is OVER!
3ORAH: Even if Serbia gets all the countries in its loud corner; Serbia can't disregard and ignore the will of 2 milion K-Albanians. Would U like to see a K-Albanian for Serbia's Prime Minister? An Albanian to represent Serbia at the UN and in the world?
The point I was making was that "thousands" were killed in 1998 which is simply not true. In 1998 Serbia was part of Yugoslavia and not a state in its own right. In 1998 Kosovo was (and still is) a province of Serbia. Which international law(s) do you believe were broken by Yugoslavia in 1998?
Philip: the list of international laws that Serbia violated before and during 1998?
Serbia promulgated a law prohibiting Albanians from buying real-estates from Serbs. Fired more than 85% of K-Albanians from their jobs. Expelled Albanians from their Secondary Schools and Prishtina University. In 1998 a lot of different para-military forces were operating in kosovo and started killing people.
Judging from your comments, you dont appear to be very neutral at all
The fact that 2 million Albanians live in Kosovo, a point Albanians raise all too often, is irrelavant. If this is the main rationale behind the forcible annexation of a territory from a sovereign state, it will open up a pandoras box world wide. To argue any otherwise is ignorant and near sighted.
If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that. Therefore, citing International law to dismiss any future seperatist aspirations in other regions, will be highly hypocritical to say the least. The fact that international law has been violated has already set a precedent. Additionally, if the main reason for granting independence is ethnic majority status, this can also be applied elsewhere in the world. Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases? I
International law, or other, is not selective. It cannot be cut an pasted, or simply disregarded, depending on objectives. Now, this is speaking from a legal perspective, and it is a fact which is obviously irrelevant to the pro-independence camp. It appears their argument is based on emotion, and riding the anti-Serb phenomenon wave, which now appears to have washed ashore. 2007 is just round the corner, whatever will be, will be . . . but hopefully it won't be, 'independance' that is
Pappy: If Kosovo is given independence by the powers which be, it will be done so by violating international law. No one can argue that.
You are right. This statement would have been valid if spoken in 1988. But, on the other hand, no provision of I-Law supports any Sovereign Country in KILLING its own inhabitants; on the contrary, it stricly prohibits that. Once you do that; then you can't appeal to that legal principle. When you start killing your own citizens, civilians, children, women, elderly people; you pay a price for that. I am just transmiting the Law. Don't kill the messenger.
You say: Why should the Albanians be given their own country when there are many others who have been standing in line a lot longer, and have even stronger cases?
Which other contry in the world tried to annihilate a certain community among its own citizens?
I can tell you that Serbia didn't distinguish armed from unarmed people. Look at the Albanian victims; 98% are civilians. There were cases when all MALES of a village (inhabited by Albanians) were executed by Serbian Police, Army or others.
Who in the right state of mind thinks that Serbia and Serbs will be able to coexist with Albanians and Kosovo, and having Kosovo as part of Serbia? Many of you are ready to bring up history into your arguments. Have you read the memorandums written by the Serbian Academy of Sciences that have provided the Serbian State with a road map how to rid Kosovo of Albanians? It's a good thing to respect the history and study it but to me it seems that quite a few Serbs are stuck in 1389 and don't see a way out of it. Blaming the past for where you are now might make you feel better, but will not change anything. Regardless of what arguments you make up, or who is on board with Serbia's claims, you are not going to be able to keep a majority of people isolated and oppressed just because you claim to be respecting international law. International law was broken long time ago. The day when your president sent the military and police and thugs to the streets of Kosovo. The day when my father along with thousands others were fired from their jobs only because of who they were. International Law was broken the day when the doors to my school were locked and the only way to get in was to learn Serbian. You are talking about international law. What about HUMAN RIGHTS isn't that part of INTERNATIONAL LAW? If the world had listened to your claims about the International Law then Bosnia would still be part of Serbia after Serbian STATE massacred thousands of civilians there. OH WAIT maybe it had the right to do so because massacring of civilians to protect sovereignty is part of International Law. WAKE UP it's not 1389 it's 2006.
first point: there is no such law that you speak of ("killing own people law"). if so 1945 germany would have been dismembered also. this is an emotional appeal, not a law.
second point, yes you are correct, if they don't want to be governed this is a problem for serbia, but serbia can then demand equivalent compensation/ concessions rather than be stripped of its territory without its permission.
third point: not wanting to be governed is precedent setting. republika srpska and others can also ask the same... causing deep international disruption.
fourth point: K is economically reliant upon serbia for thrufare and would be unwise to antagonize serbia.
The death of innocent civilians is always regretable, regardless of their nationality, but we must distinguish the difference between concrete facts, and innuendo and hearsay.
The official UN statistics of the number of dead as a result of the 1998-1999 hostilities is just over 2,000. This includes both Albanians and Serbs, combatant and civilian. These are UN statistics, and are openly available for anyone with enough interest. Until this figure changes for any other reasons, other than mere accusations, so it will remain.
The fact is, forensic scientists found comparatively little work in Kosovo. This is not being cold hearted, or being blinded by "Serb propaganda" (i myself am not a Serb), but rather just seeing the clearer picture and not allowing my vision to be distorted by highly dubious, and unconfirmed allegations. I tend to rely on facts, rather than swallow anything the media throws at me. The media is in most cases of conflict an advocate, rather than a neutral observer. This is nothing new as history will prove.
Any unlawful killings which occured in Kosovo, should be dealt with appropriately. Appropriately meaning, those responsible should face justice, as is the norm. This has happened in many cases and is still in process, and additionaly the previous government has been removed, by its own people. It is not appropriate, or comprehensible, to tear away a peice of land from a sovereign nation and hand it over to an minority ethnic group, which has long been known for its seperatist aspirations, because of the actions of a Serb minority. For you to state that the Serbs tried to 'annihalate' the Albanians is provocative rhetoric, and nothing more. I am quite certain that if it was the goal of the Serbian army to annihalate the Albanian population, they would have done so. The Serbs have never been known for their softly softly approach.
People pay very little attention to statistics, but they tell quite a story. Statistically, there are more Albanians living in Kosovo today than there were in 1999, therefore the claim of genocide can only do the Albanian cause damage, as it is obviously far fetched and can only be viewed as tastless propaganda.
What the Albanains are claiming is in fact, victims compensation. "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result". The world does not operate in this way, if it did, the world would be in constant conflict.
I haven't heard about this real-estate law before.
The K-Albs weren't fired. There was a boycott - a mass resignation of education nd health workers – all Kosovo Albanians. This was not because their employment was terminated, but because the secessionist leadership called for their boycott of the Serbian state, since this was the only way they could organise the so-called parallel state.
Also Serbia and Yugoslavia had the right to defend itself from the KLA. Not sure where you get these figures from.
The case of the Hungarians in Romania and the Hungarians in Vojvodina provide an excellent example of two ethnicities living side by side without killing each other. It also begs the question: Why didn't the Serbs attempt to ethnically cleanse Vojvodina? Could it because the Hungarians and other minorities left in the newly formed countries accepted that the borders drawn up at the end of the Wars were agreed upon and didn't think that violence would recreate the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Maybe the Albanians should also accept that they were on the losing side of the war and, thus, lost Kosovo, which was only united with Albania through the Ottoman Empire. Albanians should also accept that there are no empires left and that the dream of a Greater Albania is also dead. I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks.
Philip: The real estate law prohibiting Albanians from buying immovable property existed.If you are not aware of it; that is not my problem. You don't have to believe me.
Secondly: there was no boycott; (in fact there was but its duration was only ONE single september day),K-Albanians were fired collectivly. I admit, there were some that willingly resigned but only in small percentage.
Pappy: Italians says,"Ce non e vero e ben trovato". There were more than 3000 (threethousand) K-Albanians missing after the war not counting the deads alreday buried individually or collectively. In the centre of Prishtina, you can see photos of at least still 500 people only from town of Gjakova still missing. Serbia brought back to Kosovo almost 2000 dead bodies.
There are from 900-1000 Serbs killed of missing. So, to say that only 2000 people died in total and quoting UN as the source of this; it is a glaring example of LIE.
Pappy says, "The Serbs did bad to us, now we want their land as a result".
Well, you can't just say , I am sorry that Serbia systematically killed your family and burned your house, took off your right of having an education and employment for a decade, raped more than 2000 of your women, deported a milion of you'.
Pappy; Look at the legal definition of genocide. You think that it isn't a genocide if they let you live? It is much more than that.
Eric say, "I also believe the people here that use psudeonyms need to use their real name or something closely related to their ethnicity instead of names which contradict their positions, such as "Neutral". Please don't hide your identity with false names like terrorists do with masks".
Well Eric, I come from a mixed Serbo-Albo marriage!!!
Im sorry but i dont speak understand Italian. If you can kindly translate
If you think the report by the UN is a lie, you best take it up with them. I didnt produce the report.
Its funny how you simply dismiss proven facts as lies, and then produce statements which are nothing more than your own personal views. You discredit an official UN report, and then rattle off some numbers and percentages which i can only conclude, you made up. If you are going to quote statistics, please provide some proof. Im sorry, but i can't just take your word for it.
I suggest you let go of the 'genocide' thing, its really becoming a bit ridiculous.
I think it is now more than obvious that you are anything but Neutral.
There had been a lot of speculation about the number of people killed in Kosovo, she went on. Some people had expected the Tribunal to provide the definitive answer, but her task was not to prepare a complete list of war casualties; it was rather to gather evidence relevant to criminal charges. Her initial focus, understandably, had been to investigate those places listed as crime scenes in the indictment against President Slobodan Milosevic and other leaders. Her work had expanded beyond that investigation, but it was not her mission to compile a complete census of deaths.
Nevertheless, she said, her staff had collected some relevant statistics, given that it might be some time before all of the evidence was presented before a court, and given the legitimate public interest in the nature of her findings in the meantime. She had received reports of 529 gravesites, including those where exposed bodies had been found. As of today, approximately one third of those gravesites had been examined, and work had been completed at 195 sites. In total, 4,266 bodies had reportedly been buried in those sites. To date, 2,108 bodies had been exhumed.
To a series of follow-up questions concerning the findings, Mr. Blewitt said more than 500 sites had been associated with the 4,000 bodies. He had only completed examination of 195. Estimates of 11,000 bodies had been derived from news reports, including an estimate by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) of some 10,000 victims.
Asked if all the victims found so far had been ethnic Albanians, the Chief Prosecutor said yes, most had been Kosovo Albanians, but she had indications that numbers of other ethnic groups would be found.
This source you quote is dated November 1999, from Institute of War & Peace. The IWPR can hardly be referred to as a balanced and reliable source, but thats another matter.
The statistics mentioned in this report by Del Ponte are PRELIMINARY (meaning assumed), and were not confirmed. The numbers were based on the presumptions of the death toll. Also the report was published prior to forensic teams having fully scoured the fields of Kosovo (Nov 1999). Additionally, the statistics were based on reports from Albanians. If anyone is interested enough, have a read through the report and come up with your own conclusion. Nuff said
You quoted 1999 NATO sources? The same people who told the whole world there was undeniable evidence that 100,000 Albanians were killed by Serb forces. And the same people who actually bombed Serbia! And I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion here? Please, don't insult my intelligence.
In regards to the UN report i quoted previously, let my fingers do a bit of walking and i will provid you with the link in my next post.
Just because someone claims to be both Serbian and Albanian does not mean they are Neutral when their opinion is clearly biased toward one party. I guess I should explain this in plain English. Use the name you were given, not one that hides who you are or makes you look like you are not taking sides when, in fact, you are.
Actualy, neutral has a very good point. Here is the definition of "genocide" as preseted by its inventor Dr. Lemkin:
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"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups."
---------------------------
As you all know the concept of "genocide" has been included under international law, especially under a UN resolution that came into force on January 12 1951. That resolution is a classic example of what people like to call "international law".
This resolution provides that the UN and UNSC is bound by law to protect populations from genocide.
---------------------------
In 1999 the UNSC did not want to classify what was happening in Kosovo as "genocide" because it would force all members of the UN to act and stop it.
Therefore, the US and most of the civilised world decided to implement the UN resolution by themselves.
---------------------------
Having in mind that genocide was commited and the UN in obligated to protect us from it. Then one may argue that we still need protection and the best way to get that protection is to govern ourselves in our own country.
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If i were representing Kosovo at the UN i would simply claim that Serbia forfeited its right to territorial integrity the moment it commited genocide against the Kosovo Albanians.
There is one thing I really do not understand. Why not letting Kosovo be independent because of the fear of Ossetia or Taiwan? Why there should be one state and not many states if all the parts of the country do not agree? If people do not want to live together, why force them into doing that?
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