@Njegos
I have never dismissed Wikipedia as a reliable source.
You used the data from a paragraph on a Wikipedia page as a source, not noticing that the next paragraph explained how the previous data was no longer considered reliable and showed the up-to-date data. You couldn't read two more lines because of your short attention span.
Perhaps you could provide more reliable data on the referendum? Maybe you could explain how maybe 200,000 votes diappeared or were changed without detection?
Was every single government politician in on it, all election monitors, all major newspapers, all census collectors, all voting station staff?
Show me the dozens of videos of ballot-box stuffing and the graves of the whistle-blowers. Show me the convoys of 1000s of anti-independence voters bussed in from abroad.
I cant reply here any more, this is ridiculous , you have nothing to back up anything you say.
Dwight the Croatian revisionist - Number 1: You made light of Wikipedia and accused me of using it as a reliable source. I never used Wikipedia as a source and I provided you with verifiable and researchable sources that you chose to ignore, instead accusing me of using Wikipedia. Very shameful! Number 2: You keep ignoring my question about your relatives and their WWII affiliations and activities. Why do you keep running away from this question Dwight?
You're a coward Dwight just like all the other revisionists. You can't face the reality of your own people, so its no surprise that you can't face the reality of your own family. Must be sad going through life having to hide your family history and always trying to rewrite the history of your countrymen. It's been fun exposing for the fraud that you are and much easier than I thought. LOL
Dwight - I find it interesting and even comical that you call the leader of Montenegro a criminal and then you quote census figures compiled by this same government. Then you criticize me for using old numbers and then you recite numbers compiled from a corrupt government tallied 15 years ago! And finally, you dismiss Wikipedia as an unreliable source, and then you use Wikipedia to support your weak arguments. The more you talk the more you contradict yourself.
Dwight, everyone knows a 3rd grader can change Wikipedia and yet you use this as a reliable source! But then again, debating with you is like debating a 3rd grader. (Sorry to all the 3rd graders out there)
And still waiting for you to answer the question about your relatives during WWII...and waiting...and waiting...That's OK Dwight, if my relatives were Ustasha I'd be embarrassed too.
@njegos
From looking at the census figures, LESS people are declaring themselves as Serbs over the last number of years.
I don't care whether you call yourself a Serb or a Montenegrin but you are wrong. Here from your favourite source...Wikipedia.
Your obvious contempt for non-Serbs and people who prefer to be called Montenegrins will only divide your homeland more.
Maybe you can tell me how did the government hide the fact that 450,000 fanatic anti-independence Serbs+Montenegrins voted against Independence.
The official pro vote was 230,711, that means the gov disappeared over 200,000 votes.
There was no evidence of any major corruption in the referendum. If 400,000 Serbs had come out to vote against independence, nothing would have stopped them.
Despite Djukanovic's criminiality and what "the man on the street" told you, inventing 100,000 pro-independence voters without being detected is not something that he can do.
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "...I know Djukanovic is a criminal..."
And then you go on to say that the voting in the referendum was done fairly. You seem to be contradicting yourself Dwight.
"Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't."
Many do and more do every day. Initially, many in Montenegro felt slighted by Serbia and so the idea of an independent Montenegro sounded good. But now that it is obvious that Djukanovic is more interested in enriching himself rather than doing what's best for the people, the tide is turning. If you were there recently and had talked to the man on the street you would know this. But as I said previously, no Ustasha apologist would spend his money in Montenegro. Your countrymen would disown you. There is a very strong anti-Croat sentiment in Montenegro from the Slavs there.
"No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them"
Wrong again Dwight. In a country with a population of 650,000 a small number of votes represents a sizeable percentage. Why do you think Djukanovic allowed Albanians living abroad to vote? Time to wake up Dwight.
And still waiting for the answer to my question about your relatives during WWII Waiting...waiting...waiting...
@njegos
Why do you keep arguing against things that I never said.
I know Djukanovic is a criminal, I never said or implied anythign else, however diplomatic immunity is a thing in all countries, not just Montenegro.
My argument is not that Montengrins love Kosovo, it is that recognition is not as important to them as you think it is.
Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't.
You argument is that official documents and polls by respected organisations dont tell the truth about the demographics and voting intentions of the country but I can trust your chicken farmer uncle.
The Slav majority were not in favor of staying with Serbia, there was a referendum. If the Slav majority were in favour they would have won. No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them
Dwight - You keep avoiding my question about how many of your relatives were Ustasha in WWII? You're either ashamed or you don't know the history of your own family. You've demonstrated you don't anything about the region, but I thought you were at least knowledgeable about your own family. Perhaps not. Waiting...waiting...waiting...
From Dwight the Croat revisionist: "My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority."
Precisely the point Dwight. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about Montenegro questions anything and everything that comes from the official government. Ask the Italians who were prevented from bring Djukanovic up on cigarette smuggling charges because of diplomatic immunity. But then again, you'll believe anything as long as its anti-Serb.
More from Dwight: "And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol."
Not surprisingly, you missed the point here. I was pointing out that the Slav majority (Serbs) were in favor of staying with Serbia. Even though Djukanovic claims the Slav majority in Montenegro considers themselves Montenegrins. Even though he had to pay Albanians living abroad to vote for separation.
I've already educated you on Jasenovac and the genocide committed by your ancestors. Now I see I have to educate you on Montenegro, my family's homeland. Once again, you're out of your league. And please don't tell me you've been there several times. No Ustasha apologist like you would spend money in Montenegro.
"Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement."
Again, you don't understand the historical significance of Montenegro recognizing Kosovo and Metohija. The founding nations of Serbs, namely the principality of Zeta and Raska are present day Serbia and Montenegro. Metohija is not only in the currently disputed territory of Kosovo but also in Montenegro. The current borders you are looking at in the former Yugoslavia was drawn up by our friend Tito to appease so called Macedonians, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and later Albanian Communists. Refer to the "Zeta" Banovina under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia
Dwight
Its wierd how you have been there so many times and show so little understanding of what is going on there. The last thing i want to hear is a westerners uninformed and misunderstood opinions on the balkans. The current state of the balkans is mostly a result of the wests "supreme understanding" of the balkans.
I have been in Montenegro several times, but it doesnt matter you already have a response.
If the people I talked to disagreed with your opinion, then I was talking to the wrong people.
If the poll disagrees with your opinion, it was a fake poll.
If the vote goes against you, the opposition was bought, we should have a referendum.
If the referendum goes against you , it wasnt a big enough majority.
If the referndum majority was big, it was becasuse the ballots were faked
etc etc
I bet we can find an Albanian who visits Montenegro all the time and has family there who will tell us how everyone he knows in Montenegro is so happy that Kosovo is independent and wants them to join the UN.
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
I bet they hate when njegos visits, they just want to get on with their lives and make a living, send their kids to a good school, and njegos gets a week off from selling hotdogs to visit and tell them how international geopolitics really works, who really killed JFK, how the Bilderberg group runs the world etc , they probably just agree with him to make him shut up.
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
(Dwight, 7 February 2018 12:16)
Yep, they the Montenegrin Government followed the Egyptian rules for democratic elections and got a majority and now it makes it all legal. You have been living in the US far too long.
When you talk to people there they just throw their hands up in the air and say what is the use of voting when the results are always the same - its rigged from the start. Djuko is President/Prime Minister for life LOL - this is supported by the west too. Ahh democracy and freedom; you cant beat them.
Official records eh. The official level of unemployment in the US is 4.7%, but then even the President does not believe that one and you are asking us to believe anything that Djukanovic churns out. That government could not lie strait in bed.
But I do love how people who have never been there like you but know more about Montenegro that others who have family living there.
@Jugoslavija
Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement.
The governemnt knows that the long term prosperity of the country with EU membership and friendly relations with Kosovo is worth more than squablling over the border line.
Montenegro loses nothing and gains a lot if this agreement is completed.
@njegos
My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority.
"And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol.
There is no way in hell that Montenegro would vote to rejoin Serbia. If your family and friends in Montenegro did not want independence from Serbia why did they not vote accordingly?
Perhaps you are right since the Swiss system only works in democratic countries that are attuned to western values, plus you might get a very different result in Montenegro LOL.
It does not matter what the people want since Montenegro is run by the likes of Djukanovic and they do what they like and supported by western democratic states.
As far as 25,000 turning up, well during the war in Iraq in Washington there were up to 500,000 people demonstrating and it barely got a mention on US news and when it did, the numbers were far less. It’s called controlling the media.
The last time there was a demonstration in Montenegro the freedom loving government ordered their police to use tear gas.
I think that joining NATO is a big issue, except for you and the west. If a referendum succeeds after a fair vote, which is not rigged, then the matter is closed. It should be accepted by all parties.
In any real democracy a revisit on an issue is not out of the question, but that’s only in a real democracy like the US LOL.
Who decides what should go to a referendum? Try using the polls properly and it might give you a hint and you don’t even have to have a Swiss style system.
Let me repeat, western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
Well Captain Crackpot has spoken, Serbs are both fascists and Communists LOL. Next it will be Serbs killed themselves in Jasenovac. You sure paedophile Croatian priests not still kiddy fiddling with you?
Let’s look at who likes Krovatia? Slovenia? Do I need to say it? Yes, I do, a very big NO. Do Bosniaks like Krovatians? Another very big NO, Do Serbs like Krovatians? A very big, big NO. Do Hungarians have problems with Krovatia? Yes. Anyone like Krovatia? NO.
I no see Kolinder at meeting of Slovenian and Serbian joint sitting of Parliament in Ljubljana. What happen? She missed the bus and still waiting for next one at bus stop LOL?
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07) # Comment link
ICQ. The EU you are referring consists of UNELECTED bureaucrats who are accountable to no one
Try having an original thought once instead of stupidly trying to answer questions with another question. You’re not talented enough to pull that off effectively
If you call someone "goat" ("козёл") in Russian - that's not a compliment.
As long as the situation is not cleaned up (proper registration process) - much here is about goats with donkeys.
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia.
(Ian, 6 February 2018 20:54)
Lenard is not whom you would think.
There are strong indicators, Lenard is a creation of the same psychopath who made Avni and bunch of other trolls here.
It is a pointless to answer any his posting, except if you make a little essay about sexual life of donkeys. This seem to nerve that imbecile.
The "owner" is not Albanian and not Croatian. Roger7 believes, it is a Canadian. I recall, this is a guy from Beograd or Novi Sad who posted here a while ago as "Danilo".
His goal is not express any meaningful opinion. His goal is to make as many people upset as possible.
It is interesting to observe, these "characters" never talk to each other. I don't recall that even a single time in well over 10 years.
are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:19)
Of course, dear. All EU officials are directly or indirectly elected by the EU citizens. Rest assured that, except in your dreams, there does not exist any EU official that is elected by aliens.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
Another well-thought out response from icj1 the Serb Hater. I rest my case.
(njegos, 6 February 2018 18:27)
Even though you consider Serbs as either scum or aliens or both, Serbs are neither scum nor aliens. But, yes, you can rest your case since you definitively showed that you are a Serb hater.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:17)
How so?! If the pollster is corrupt and changes the result from, say, 30% to 90%, that changes a "no" to "yes" or a "yes" to "no" with a stroke of a pen. It does not really matter how high or low the true numbers are (always according to a true Serb patriot) lol
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
(Dwight, 6 February 2018 17:08)
If you don't know the history of the region, your doomed making ill informed stupid remarks. For your information, Kosovo and Metohija is also part of the current borders of Montenegro. So, Montenegro in essence recognized part of it's border to the fake state of Kosovo. For this reason, the majority of Serbians and Montenegrins are against the so called state of Kosovo. The leadership of Montenegro is bought and paid for by the United States of America, the majority of it's citizens are not.
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia. The whole point was if croatia can seceed from yugoslavia, why cant the serb entity in croatia seceed from croatia? Same principle in bisnia. Slovenia was let go by all parties. Second going by what you said, if the heavy majority votes a certain way it should be respected. So which way is it in this case? You contradict yourself and show zero knowledge all in a matter of a few sentences. Its pathetic.
LOL Serbs up in arms. When did the fascist Serbs with their Serb communist respect others rites. Like in Croatia 90% voted to leave the criminal Serboslavia communist prison. Also in Bosnia over 70% voted to leave and Kosovo 90% or Slovenia over 90%. In Montenegro needed 55% because criminal pathetic stupid Serbs were up in arms as usual. Even tried to overthrow in Montenegro with Russia dully elected Montenegrin government. Serbs wonder why no one likes them after all they did criminally in Ex Yugo.
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit."
How do you know anything about the vast majority of Montenegrins? Have you ever been there? Please answer honestly. I have and I have many family members there. Where do you get your numbers anyway? That which is published by the Djukanovic government? You need to pull your head out the sand. Montenegro's independence was achieved by attaining 55% of the vote. Hardly a vast majority. And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away based on promises given to them by Djukanovic, there very well may not have been a majority voting to break away. And now that those promises have gone unfulfilled, Djukanovic in all likelihood has lost the Albanian vote there. Not to mention the Albanians living abroad who were allowed to vote. I was there in October of 2016 when there were pro Serb demonstrations in downtown Podgorica. The Djukanovic gov't. came in and used tear gas a violence to break it up. If there were a fair vote today Montenegro would vote to reunite with Serbia. Just look at the attendance at the Serbian churches in Montenegro vs the Montenegrin churches. Take a guess whose are full and whose are empty. But you've never been there, so you wouldn't know.
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
From Dwight (the Croatian revisionist): "In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%"
What kind of convoluted logic is that? Just because someone votes for a political party doesn't mean they agree with every position of that party. The vast majority of Montenegrins were and are against Kosovo independence. Have you ever been there Dwight or are you talking about subjects that you know nothing about as you have in the past? You've already demonstrated that you're bad with numbers, no need to keep reinforcing the point! LOL
@sj
Switserland has a framework for deciding what requires a referendum, Montenegro doesn't, and what is a big issue for you is a small issue for someone else.
Kosovo recognition is only a big issue in Serbia. It was a pretty small issue in Montenegro otherwise the government would never have been re-elected, instead there was a single protest of 25,000 people
Who decides what is a big issue? If your referendum fails to get the result it wants, can it be a big issue again in 2 years?
Switzerland uses petitions, other countries require referendum for constitutional changes, your criteria for Montenegro to have referendum seems to be that something is a big issue if it displeases Serbian nationalists.
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:01)
They think if they steal then everyone else does too. Its the same old mantra about the Serbian churches in Kosovo. The Albanians claim its their property when even Byzantine records show that Serbs built them. Its a mental disease.
As I said you have no idea about democracy. Since its closer to 20% why would any vote be close? It should be a clear win for the current government. Sorry my little friend but BS is always BS.
I am not demanding referendums at every corner but on major issues such as Kosovo or NATO. Why not hold a referendum for NATO? Because the polls are BS and there is great fear it would not come up.
Western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
Your argument on Switzerland and Montenegro does not hold water.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
============================
Do you have a rational comeback ever?
So tell us, or you great genious, are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
========================
Dwight, so then what happened? How come such a swing against NATO or don't you believe the polls?
I have always stated that you can have any outcome you desire in any poll as long as you select the right demographic to poll but even if you take that into account it's still a huge swing against NATO.
Either the stats were wrong or manipulated then or clearly people have changed their mind. Either way the government should pay attention to the will of the people.
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
(sj, 6 February 2018 10:19
=========================
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
======================
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
(Joni, 6 February 2018 09:39)
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
The Swiss have referendums regularly.
(sj, 6 February 2018 09:36)
In general parties did not openly campaign on Kosovo issue in the elections preceding recognition except for the Serb List , not recognizing Kosovo was one of its central policies.
In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%
Based on polling of the citizens, Montenegro was justified in joining NATO and recognizing Kosovo and any referendum would likely have been won by the government although it would probably have been a close vote.
Montenegro is not Switzerland. Referedums in Switzerland are an established system there based on petitioning.
You can't just demand a referendum every time you disagree with the government. You are the only one screaming.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
@Ari Gold
You are correct in the things you say about Montenegro where the government has a huge influence over the media and public sector votes. Just like with Serbia, the government is a type of mafia.
However this only seems to bother you when the decisions are going against you. When it is in your favour you start calling it "the will of the people". You can't have it both ways.
Here is Serbia, if there was free media and non-mafia government, there would be more support for independent Kosovo and NATO, but we are not allowed to have honest discussion about it.
PS
The main story in Informer newspaper in Serbia this week was that the CIA sent two assassins to Serbia to kill Vucic. The police managed to stop the assassination but the 2 killers got away so we must vote for Vucic, the only one to stand against the US-Deep-State-Assassins.
I am told that this is the most read newspaper in the country.
If 85% were agaist they will be on the streets protesting against.
But Acctually 99% of Montenegrins voted for Kosovo for not being the next Kosovo.
I find funny to see - how Montenegrins don't want to have a single connection with Serbs.
They will vote for everything against Serbs, because understand that they Just were lucky for not being the second 'Srebrenica'.
This man is just trying to be 'friendly" by telling that and try to convince Kosovo to sign the agreements with MNE.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
You don’t even know what a democracy is or how it should function. In a democracy all parties seeking office campaign on a list of issues and if elected they implement them. If the Montenegrin governing party had campaigned prior to the last election to recognise Kosovo and won, then there would be no qualms, but you see they never did.
Even if its 65% against, and it was never a party policy in the last election, then in any democratic system you must ask the people how they wish to go. Just like joining NATO. But then the western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
He is 100 % right Kosova must vote for Demarkacioning for the sake of peace and stability in the region. Don't forget Montenegro did recognized Kosova against the wishes of their allies Serbia. All Kosova allies are telling Kosova vote demarkacioning and they are acting stupid. I know that those land belong to Albanians but this world is not perfect. Kosova,Albania,Bosnja,Montenegro,Croatia,Maqedonia,Greece,Sllovenia,Bullgaria,Rumania,Hungary and why not later Serbia need to have peace and get to work for better future for our people western EU looks at us inferiority. together we can prosper and have better life we most forget nationalistic ideology and get bussy to working together.
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
(Who, 5 February 2018 20:17)
@ who - 😂, he came to tell Thaci that “Kosova” can’t have land they thought was theirs!
You’re proud of this and call it a “official” visit?😂
He didn’t come with investments, he came to tell you you can’t have their land...Holy Cow;) sometimes best not to speak, dude!
In a real democracy 85% of your people telling you to do one thing and then you doing the opposite is a death sentence to the "democracy" you claim tfo have. Martinovic is incredibly stupid for choosing to say this out loud. This is all the proof you would ever need to show monte negro is not a democracy but a puppet state. Every major move they make is made without majority support. Maybe not today or tomarrow but t his is going to blow up in their faces badly.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
Rote Kapelle I was watching a Russian movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGTrQcS8c2s last night. Approved financed by the Russian government even mad Vlad's stamp of approval. The jest of it a beautiful Russian FSB aka KGB officer that's suppose to represent mad Vlad fairy tale story. Takes on EU, CIA, Islam terrorism supported by kindly intelligent KGB ljublianka holocaust central. The beautiful FSB/KGB agent was about to be snuffed out by the CIA. When all of a sudden the Russian cavalry appears fighter jets, attack helicopters makes the Americans shit their pants. Russia, KGB saves the world even America. Wow good recruiting movie for Russian simpletons for KGB and mad Vlad's army. I can even understand Russian as if they were talking Croatian. It must of been when wee ruled over you guys and establish the first Slavic states.
rote kapelle, 5 February 2018 16:27)
No matter how you vote putin Is the president
Komunist don't know voting , you are komunist
(Albanian American, 5 February 2018 18:58)
========================
Putin remains the president because his approval is in the 80s.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody. They don't get voted in and they can't be voted out. Now that's democracy.
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
=======================
Dwight, they are supposed to represent the people who voted for them not dictate to them.
Did they campaign on that platform? Do they have the mandate? You see, something this important should be listened to the will of people. They didn't have to have a referendum. They only had to look at the polls and even if they didn't believe the figures they must've known that more than half didn't want what they still went ahead and did.
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
Don't worry, Dusko. The 85% of Montenegro will remember this and the other crimes you and your UDBA bandits led by Djukanovic committed when justice comes knocking on your door!
Dwight the covert Ustasha is lying! Montenegro is not a real democracy. With a small population, a large public sector that votes on command, impoverished people willing to sell their votes and media blackouts-it's obvious how the same criminals "win" their elections. No legitimacy! Lock them up!
Montenegrin Prime Minister Dusko Martinovic says his country "wants to see Kosovo in the EU and in NATO."
--
Montenegro is insignificant when it comes to the EU and NATO. Spain on the other hand is a member of both with veto powers. I wonder how Spain feels about "Kosova"*** joining NATO and the EU? LOL!
When it comes to demarcation between Montenegro and Kosovo, that is only something they can discuss only with Serbia. Whatever they agree with Pristina is just a non-legally binding temporary understanding. ;-)
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
(Dwight, 5 February 2018 15:28)
NO MATTER HOW WE VOTE.
ALL OVER THE WORLD MATTERS HOW THEY COUNT IT ...
85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?
(sj, 5 February 2018 13:13)
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
This is what you call moving forward democratically, BRAVO! (Peter The Rocky Mountains) 85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?(sj, 05. februar 2018 13:13) ====///////He is just an insignificant troll.
Don’t make up numbers, 85% is a figure this rag made up. Montenegrins and Serbs only make up 73% of the population, others make up the rest and the figures for Montenegrins is more so about national identity not ethnicity. more people support or are neutral when it comes to Kosovo’s independence than they are against it in the Balkans. Kosovo will not be a problem in the near future but Vojvodina and The Presevo valley will spark more civil unrest especially with the rise of strong Hungarian and Albanian nationalism in the last decade.
It is clear that E.U and U.S are interfering within Serbian politics.
Montenegro is a nation that sold it's soul to the devil in return to get dirty money.
Why not ask the population??? Have a referendum???
95% of population would have said NO
Easy for a head of state to say our nation recognizer an illegal breakaway.
The people should make the choice not a dirty corrupt a$$ liking puppet that gets dirty money put in front of him.
Montenegro politics are as dirty as U.S and E.U
It is clear that E.U and U.S are interfering within Serbian politics.
Montenegro is a nation that sold it's soul to the devil in return to get dirty money.
Why not ask the population??? Have a referendum???
95% of population would have said NO
Easy for a head of state to say our nation recognizer an illegal breakaway.
The people should make the choice not a dirty corrupt a$$ liking puppet that gets dirty money put in front of him.
Montenegro politics are as dirty as U.S and E.U
This is what you call moving forward democratically, BRAVO! (Peter The Rocky Mountains) 85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?(sj, 05. februar 2018 13:13) ====///////He is just an insignificant troll.
Don't worry, Dusko. The 85% of Montenegro will remember this and the other crimes you and your UDBA bandits led by Djukanovic committed when justice comes knocking on your door!
Dwight the covert Ustasha is lying! Montenegro is not a real democracy. With a small population, a large public sector that votes on command, impoverished people willing to sell their votes and media blackouts-it's obvious how the same criminals "win" their elections. No legitimacy! Lock them up!
Don’t make up numbers, 85% is a figure this rag made up. Montenegrins and Serbs only make up 73% of the population, others make up the rest and the figures for Montenegrins is more so about national identity not ethnicity. more people support or are neutral when it comes to Kosovo’s independence than they are against it in the Balkans. Kosovo will not be a problem in the near future but Vojvodina and The Presevo valley will spark more civil unrest especially with the rise of strong Hungarian and Albanian nationalism in the last decade.
85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?
(sj, 5 February 2018 13:13)
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
Montenegrin Prime Minister Dusko Martinovic says his country "wants to see Kosovo in the EU and in NATO."
--
Montenegro is insignificant when it comes to the EU and NATO. Spain on the other hand is a member of both with veto powers. I wonder how Spain feels about "Kosova"*** joining NATO and the EU? LOL!
When it comes to demarcation between Montenegro and Kosovo, that is only something they can discuss only with Serbia. Whatever they agree with Pristina is just a non-legally binding temporary understanding. ;-)
Rote Kapelle I was watching a Russian movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGTrQcS8c2s last night. Approved financed by the Russian government even mad Vlad's stamp of approval. The jest of it a beautiful Russian FSB aka KGB officer that's suppose to represent mad Vlad fairy tale story. Takes on EU, CIA, Islam terrorism supported by kindly intelligent KGB ljublianka holocaust central. The beautiful FSB/KGB agent was about to be snuffed out by the CIA. When all of a sudden the Russian cavalry appears fighter jets, attack helicopters makes the Americans shit their pants. Russia, KGB saves the world even America. Wow good recruiting movie for Russian simpletons for KGB and mad Vlad's army. I can even understand Russian as if they were talking Croatian. It must of been when wee ruled over you guys and establish the first Slavic states.
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
If 85% were agaist they will be on the streets protesting against.
But Acctually 99% of Montenegrins voted for Kosovo for not being the next Kosovo.
I find funny to see - how Montenegrins don't want to have a single connection with Serbs.
They will vote for everything against Serbs, because understand that they Just were lucky for not being the second 'Srebrenica'.
This man is just trying to be 'friendly" by telling that and try to convince Kosovo to sign the agreements with MNE.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
LOL Serbs up in arms. When did the fascist Serbs with their Serb communist respect others rites. Like in Croatia 90% voted to leave the criminal Serboslavia communist prison. Also in Bosnia over 70% voted to leave and Kosovo 90% or Slovenia over 90%. In Montenegro needed 55% because criminal pathetic stupid Serbs were up in arms as usual. Even tried to overthrow in Montenegro with Russia dully elected Montenegrin government. Serbs wonder why no one likes them after all they did criminally in Ex Yugo.
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
=======================
Dwight, they are supposed to represent the people who voted for them not dictate to them.
Did they campaign on that platform? Do they have the mandate? You see, something this important should be listened to the will of people. They didn't have to have a referendum. They only had to look at the polls and even if they didn't believe the figures they must've known that more than half didn't want what they still went ahead and did.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
rote kapelle, 5 February 2018 16:27)
No matter how you vote putin Is the president
Komunist don't know voting , you are komunist
(Albanian American, 5 February 2018 18:58)
========================
Putin remains the president because his approval is in the 80s.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody. They don't get voted in and they can't be voted out. Now that's democracy.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
@Ari Gold
You are correct in the things you say about Montenegro where the government has a huge influence over the media and public sector votes. Just like with Serbia, the government is a type of mafia.
However this only seems to bother you when the decisions are going against you. When it is in your favour you start calling it "the will of the people". You can't have it both ways.
Here is Serbia, if there was free media and non-mafia government, there would be more support for independent Kosovo and NATO, but we are not allowed to have honest discussion about it.
PS
The main story in Informer newspaper in Serbia this week was that the CIA sent two assassins to Serbia to kill Vucic. The police managed to stop the assassination but the 2 killers got away so we must vote for Vucic, the only one to stand against the US-Deep-State-Assassins.
I am told that this is the most read newspaper in the country.
The Swiss have referendums regularly.
(sj, 6 February 2018 09:36)
In general parties did not openly campaign on Kosovo issue in the elections preceding recognition except for the Serb List , not recognizing Kosovo was one of its central policies.
In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%
Based on polling of the citizens, Montenegro was justified in joining NATO and recognizing Kosovo and any referendum would likely have been won by the government although it would probably have been a close vote.
Montenegro is not Switzerland. Referedums in Switzerland are an established system there based on petitioning.
You can't just demand a referendum every time you disagree with the government. You are the only one screaming.
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:01)
They think if they steal then everyone else does too. Its the same old mantra about the Serbian churches in Kosovo. The Albanians claim its their property when even Byzantine records show that Serbs built them. Its a mental disease.
@sj
Switserland has a framework for deciding what requires a referendum, Montenegro doesn't, and what is a big issue for you is a small issue for someone else.
Kosovo recognition is only a big issue in Serbia. It was a pretty small issue in Montenegro otherwise the government would never have been re-elected, instead there was a single protest of 25,000 people
Who decides what is a big issue? If your referendum fails to get the result it wants, can it be a big issue again in 2 years?
Switzerland uses petitions, other countries require referendum for constitutional changes, your criteria for Montenegro to have referendum seems to be that something is a big issue if it displeases Serbian nationalists.
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
============================
Do you have a rational comeback ever?
So tell us, or you great genious, are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
From Dwight (the Croatian revisionist): "In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%"
What kind of convoluted logic is that? Just because someone votes for a political party doesn't mean they agree with every position of that party. The vast majority of Montenegrins were and are against Kosovo independence. Have you ever been there Dwight or are you talking about subjects that you know nothing about as you have in the past? You've already demonstrated that you're bad with numbers, no need to keep reinforcing the point! LOL
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit."
How do you know anything about the vast majority of Montenegrins? Have you ever been there? Please answer honestly. I have and I have many family members there. Where do you get your numbers anyway? That which is published by the Djukanovic government? You need to pull your head out the sand. Montenegro's independence was achieved by attaining 55% of the vote. Hardly a vast majority. And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away based on promises given to them by Djukanovic, there very well may not have been a majority voting to break away. And now that those promises have gone unfulfilled, Djukanovic in all likelihood has lost the Albanian vote there. Not to mention the Albanians living abroad who were allowed to vote. I was there in October of 2016 when there were pro Serb demonstrations in downtown Podgorica. The Djukanovic gov't. came in and used tear gas a violence to break it up. If there were a fair vote today Montenegro would vote to reunite with Serbia. Just look at the attendance at the Serbian churches in Montenegro vs the Montenegrin churches. Take a guess whose are full and whose are empty. But you've never been there, so you wouldn't know.
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
(Dwight, 6 February 2018 17:08)
If you don't know the history of the region, your doomed making ill informed stupid remarks. For your information, Kosovo and Metohija is also part of the current borders of Montenegro. So, Montenegro in essence recognized part of it's border to the fake state of Kosovo. For this reason, the majority of Serbians and Montenegrins are against the so called state of Kosovo. The leadership of Montenegro is bought and paid for by the United States of America, the majority of it's citizens are not.
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
======================
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
In a real democracy 85% of your people telling you to do one thing and then you doing the opposite is a death sentence to the "democracy" you claim tfo have. Martinovic is incredibly stupid for choosing to say this out loud. This is all the proof you would ever need to show monte negro is not a democracy but a puppet state. Every major move they make is made without majority support. Maybe not today or tomarrow but t his is going to blow up in their faces badly.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
(Joni, 6 February 2018 09:39)
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia. The whole point was if croatia can seceed from yugoslavia, why cant the serb entity in croatia seceed from croatia? Same principle in bisnia. Slovenia was let go by all parties. Second going by what you said, if the heavy majority votes a certain way it should be respected. So which way is it in this case? You contradict yourself and show zero knowledge all in a matter of a few sentences. Its pathetic.
@Jugoslavija
Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement.
The governemnt knows that the long term prosperity of the country with EU membership and friendly relations with Kosovo is worth more than squablling over the border line.
Montenegro loses nothing and gains a lot if this agreement is completed.
@njegos
My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority.
"And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol.
There is no way in hell that Montenegro would vote to rejoin Serbia. If your family and friends in Montenegro did not want independence from Serbia why did they not vote accordingly?
You don’t even know what a democracy is or how it should function. In a democracy all parties seeking office campaign on a list of issues and if elected they implement them. If the Montenegrin governing party had campaigned prior to the last election to recognise Kosovo and won, then there would be no qualms, but you see they never did.
Even if its 65% against, and it was never a party policy in the last election, then in any democratic system you must ask the people how they wish to go. Just like joining NATO. But then the western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
(sj, 6 February 2018 10:19
=========================
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
As I said you have no idea about democracy. Since its closer to 20% why would any vote be close? It should be a clear win for the current government. Sorry my little friend but BS is always BS.
I am not demanding referendums at every corner but on major issues such as Kosovo or NATO. Why not hold a referendum for NATO? Because the polls are BS and there is great fear it would not come up.
Western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
Your argument on Switzerland and Montenegro does not hold water.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:17)
How so?! If the pollster is corrupt and changes the result from, say, 30% to 90%, that changes a "no" to "yes" or a "yes" to "no" with a stroke of a pen. It does not really matter how high or low the true numbers are (always according to a true Serb patriot) lol
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
(Dwight, 7 February 2018 12:16)
Yep, they the Montenegrin Government followed the Egyptian rules for democratic elections and got a majority and now it makes it all legal. You have been living in the US far too long.
When you talk to people there they just throw their hands up in the air and say what is the use of voting when the results are always the same - its rigged from the start. Djuko is President/Prime Minister for life LOL - this is supported by the west too. Ahh democracy and freedom; you cant beat them.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
========================
Dwight, so then what happened? How come such a swing against NATO or don't you believe the polls?
I have always stated that you can have any outcome you desire in any poll as long as you select the right demographic to poll but even if you take that into account it's still a huge swing against NATO.
Either the stats were wrong or manipulated then or clearly people have changed their mind. Either way the government should pay attention to the will of the people.
Well Captain Crackpot has spoken, Serbs are both fascists and Communists LOL. Next it will be Serbs killed themselves in Jasenovac. You sure paedophile Croatian priests not still kiddy fiddling with you?
Let’s look at who likes Krovatia? Slovenia? Do I need to say it? Yes, I do, a very big NO. Do Bosniaks like Krovatians? Another very big NO, Do Serbs like Krovatians? A very big, big NO. Do Hungarians have problems with Krovatia? Yes. Anyone like Krovatia? NO.
I no see Kolinder at meeting of Slovenian and Serbian joint sitting of Parliament in Ljubljana. What happen? She missed the bus and still waiting for next one at bus stop LOL?
Perhaps you are right since the Swiss system only works in democratic countries that are attuned to western values, plus you might get a very different result in Montenegro LOL.
It does not matter what the people want since Montenegro is run by the likes of Djukanovic and they do what they like and supported by western democratic states.
As far as 25,000 turning up, well during the war in Iraq in Washington there were up to 500,000 people demonstrating and it barely got a mention on US news and when it did, the numbers were far less. It’s called controlling the media.
The last time there was a demonstration in Montenegro the freedom loving government ordered their police to use tear gas.
I think that joining NATO is a big issue, except for you and the west. If a referendum succeeds after a fair vote, which is not rigged, then the matter is closed. It should be accepted by all parties.
In any real democracy a revisit on an issue is not out of the question, but that’s only in a real democracy like the US LOL.
Who decides what should go to a referendum? Try using the polls properly and it might give you a hint and you don’t even have to have a Swiss style system.
Let me repeat, western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
I have been in Montenegro several times, but it doesnt matter you already have a response.
If the people I talked to disagreed with your opinion, then I was talking to the wrong people.
If the poll disagrees with your opinion, it was a fake poll.
If the vote goes against you, the opposition was bought, we should have a referendum.
If the referendum goes against you , it wasnt a big enough majority.
If the referndum majority was big, it was becasuse the ballots were faked
etc etc
I bet we can find an Albanian who visits Montenegro all the time and has family there who will tell us how everyone he knows in Montenegro is so happy that Kosovo is independent and wants them to join the UN.
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
I bet they hate when njegos visits, they just want to get on with their lives and make a living, send their kids to a good school, and njegos gets a week off from selling hotdogs to visit and tell them how international geopolitics really works, who really killed JFK, how the Bilderberg group runs the world etc , they probably just agree with him to make him shut up.
He is 100 % right Kosova must vote for Demarkacioning for the sake of peace and stability in the region. Don't forget Montenegro did recognized Kosova against the wishes of their allies Serbia. All Kosova allies are telling Kosova vote demarkacioning and they are acting stupid. I know that those land belong to Albanians but this world is not perfect. Kosova,Albania,Bosnja,Montenegro,Croatia,Maqedonia,Greece,Sllovenia,Bullgaria,Rumania,Hungary and why not later Serbia need to have peace and get to work for better future for our people western EU looks at us inferiority. together we can prosper and have better life we most forget nationalistic ideology and get bussy to working together.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
Another well-thought out response from icj1 the Serb Hater. I rest my case.
(njegos, 6 February 2018 18:27)
Even though you consider Serbs as either scum or aliens or both, Serbs are neither scum nor aliens. But, yes, you can rest your case since you definitively showed that you are a Serb hater.
are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:19)
Of course, dear. All EU officials are directly or indirectly elected by the EU citizens. Rest assured that, except in your dreams, there does not exist any EU official that is elected by aliens.
Official records eh. The official level of unemployment in the US is 4.7%, but then even the President does not believe that one and you are asking us to believe anything that Djukanovic churns out. That government could not lie strait in bed.
But I do love how people who have never been there like you but know more about Montenegro that others who have family living there.
Dwight
Its wierd how you have been there so many times and show so little understanding of what is going on there. The last thing i want to hear is a westerners uninformed and misunderstood opinions on the balkans. The current state of the balkans is mostly a result of the wests "supreme understanding" of the balkans.
"Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement."
Again, you don't understand the historical significance of Montenegro recognizing Kosovo and Metohija. The founding nations of Serbs, namely the principality of Zeta and Raska are present day Serbia and Montenegro. Metohija is not only in the currently disputed territory of Kosovo but also in Montenegro. The current borders you are looking at in the former Yugoslavia was drawn up by our friend Tito to appease so called Macedonians, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and later Albanian Communists. Refer to the "Zeta" Banovina under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia
Dwight - You keep avoiding my question about how many of your relatives were Ustasha in WWII? You're either ashamed or you don't know the history of your own family. You've demonstrated you don't anything about the region, but I thought you were at least knowledgeable about your own family. Perhaps not. Waiting...waiting...waiting...
@njegos
Why do you keep arguing against things that I never said.
I know Djukanovic is a criminal, I never said or implied anythign else, however diplomatic immunity is a thing in all countries, not just Montenegro.
My argument is not that Montengrins love Kosovo, it is that recognition is not as important to them as you think it is.
Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't.
You argument is that official documents and polls by respected organisations dont tell the truth about the demographics and voting intentions of the country but I can trust your chicken farmer uncle.
The Slav majority were not in favor of staying with Serbia, there was a referendum. If the Slav majority were in favour they would have won. No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "...I know Djukanovic is a criminal..."
And then you go on to say that the voting in the referendum was done fairly. You seem to be contradicting yourself Dwight.
"Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't."
Many do and more do every day. Initially, many in Montenegro felt slighted by Serbia and so the idea of an independent Montenegro sounded good. But now that it is obvious that Djukanovic is more interested in enriching himself rather than doing what's best for the people, the tide is turning. If you were there recently and had talked to the man on the street you would know this. But as I said previously, no Ustasha apologist would spend his money in Montenegro. Your countrymen would disown you. There is a very strong anti-Croat sentiment in Montenegro from the Slavs there.
"No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them"
Wrong again Dwight. In a country with a population of 650,000 a small number of votes represents a sizeable percentage. Why do you think Djukanovic allowed Albanians living abroad to vote? Time to wake up Dwight.
And still waiting for the answer to my question about your relatives during WWII Waiting...waiting...waiting...
There was no evidence of any major corruption in the referendum. If 400,000 Serbs had come out to vote against independence, nothing would have stopped them.
Despite Djukanovic's criminiality and what "the man on the street" told you, inventing 100,000 pro-independence voters without being detected is not something that he can do.
Dwight the Croatian revisionist - Number 1: You made light of Wikipedia and accused me of using it as a reliable source. I never used Wikipedia as a source and I provided you with verifiable and researchable sources that you chose to ignore, instead accusing me of using Wikipedia. Very shameful! Number 2: You keep ignoring my question about your relatives and their WWII affiliations and activities. Why do you keep running away from this question Dwight?
You're a coward Dwight just like all the other revisionists. You can't face the reality of your own people, so its no surprise that you can't face the reality of your own family. Must be sad going through life having to hide your family history and always trying to rewrite the history of your countrymen. It's been fun exposing for the fraud that you are and much easier than I thought. LOL
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia.
(Ian, 6 February 2018 20:54)
Lenard is not whom you would think.
There are strong indicators, Lenard is a creation of the same psychopath who made Avni and bunch of other trolls here.
It is a pointless to answer any his posting, except if you make a little essay about sexual life of donkeys. This seem to nerve that imbecile.
The "owner" is not Albanian and not Croatian. Roger7 believes, it is a Canadian. I recall, this is a guy from Beograd or Novi Sad who posted here a while ago as "Danilo".
His goal is not express any meaningful opinion. His goal is to make as many people upset as possible.
It is interesting to observe, these "characters" never talk to each other. I don't recall that even a single time in well over 10 years.
From Dwight the Croat revisionist: "My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority."
Precisely the point Dwight. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about Montenegro questions anything and everything that comes from the official government. Ask the Italians who were prevented from bring Djukanovic up on cigarette smuggling charges because of diplomatic immunity. But then again, you'll believe anything as long as its anti-Serb.
More from Dwight: "And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol."
Not surprisingly, you missed the point here. I was pointing out that the Slav majority (Serbs) were in favor of staying with Serbia. Even though Djukanovic claims the Slav majority in Montenegro considers themselves Montenegrins. Even though he had to pay Albanians living abroad to vote for separation.
I've already educated you on Jasenovac and the genocide committed by your ancestors. Now I see I have to educate you on Montenegro, my family's homeland. Once again, you're out of your league. And please don't tell me you've been there several times. No Ustasha apologist like you would spend money in Montenegro.
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
(Dwight, 5 February 2018 15:28)
NO MATTER HOW WE VOTE.
ALL OVER THE WORLD MATTERS HOW THEY COUNT IT ...
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
(Who, 5 February 2018 20:17)
@ who - 😂, he came to tell Thaci that “Kosova” can’t have land they thought was theirs!
You’re proud of this and call it a “official” visit?😂
He didn’t come with investments, he came to tell you you can’t have their land...Holy Cow;) sometimes best not to speak, dude!
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07) # Comment link
ICQ. The EU you are referring consists of UNELECTED bureaucrats who are accountable to no one
Try having an original thought once instead of stupidly trying to answer questions with another question. You’re not talented enough to pull that off effectively
@njegos
From looking at the census figures, LESS people are declaring themselves as Serbs over the last number of years.
I don't care whether you call yourself a Serb or a Montenegrin but you are wrong. Here from your favourite source...Wikipedia.
Your obvious contempt for non-Serbs and people who prefer to be called Montenegrins will only divide your homeland more.
Maybe you can tell me how did the government hide the fact that 450,000 fanatic anti-independence Serbs+Montenegrins voted against Independence.
The official pro vote was 230,711, that means the gov disappeared over 200,000 votes.
@Njegos
I have never dismissed Wikipedia as a reliable source.
You used the data from a paragraph on a Wikipedia page as a source, not noticing that the next paragraph explained how the previous data was no longer considered reliable and showed the up-to-date data. You couldn't read two more lines because of your short attention span.
Perhaps you could provide more reliable data on the referendum? Maybe you could explain how maybe 200,000 votes diappeared or were changed without detection?
Was every single government politician in on it, all election monitors, all major newspapers, all census collectors, all voting station staff?
Show me the dozens of videos of ballot-box stuffing and the graves of the whistle-blowers. Show me the convoys of 1000s of anti-independence voters bussed in from abroad.
I cant reply here any more, this is ridiculous , you have nothing to back up anything you say.
If you call someone "goat" ("козёл") in Russian - that's not a compliment.
As long as the situation is not cleaned up (proper registration process) - much here is about goats with donkeys.
Dwight - I find it interesting and even comical that you call the leader of Montenegro a criminal and then you quote census figures compiled by this same government. Then you criticize me for using old numbers and then you recite numbers compiled from a corrupt government tallied 15 years ago! And finally, you dismiss Wikipedia as an unreliable source, and then you use Wikipedia to support your weak arguments. The more you talk the more you contradict yourself.
Dwight, everyone knows a 3rd grader can change Wikipedia and yet you use this as a reliable source! But then again, debating with you is like debating a 3rd grader. (Sorry to all the 3rd graders out there)
And still waiting for you to answer the question about your relatives during WWII...and waiting...and waiting...That's OK Dwight, if my relatives were Ustasha I'd be embarrassed too.
It is clear that E.U and U.S are interfering within Serbian politics.
Montenegro is a nation that sold it's soul to the devil in return to get dirty money.
Why not ask the population??? Have a referendum???
95% of population would have said NO
Easy for a head of state to say our nation recognizer an illegal breakaway.
The people should make the choice not a dirty corrupt a$$ liking puppet that gets dirty money put in front of him.
Montenegro politics are as dirty as U.S and E.U
Don’t make up numbers, 85% is a figure this rag made up. Montenegrins and Serbs only make up 73% of the population, others make up the rest and the figures for Montenegrins is more so about national identity not ethnicity. more people support or are neutral when it comes to Kosovo’s independence than they are against it in the Balkans. Kosovo will not be a problem in the near future but Vojvodina and The Presevo valley will spark more civil unrest especially with the rise of strong Hungarian and Albanian nationalism in the last decade.
This is what you call moving forward democratically, BRAVO! (Peter The Rocky Mountains) 85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?(sj, 05. februar 2018 13:13) ====///////He is just an insignificant troll.
Montenegrin Prime Minister Dusko Martinovic says his country "wants to see Kosovo in the EU and in NATO."
--
Montenegro is insignificant when it comes to the EU and NATO. Spain on the other hand is a member of both with veto powers. I wonder how Spain feels about "Kosova"*** joining NATO and the EU? LOL!
When it comes to demarcation between Montenegro and Kosovo, that is only something they can discuss only with Serbia. Whatever they agree with Pristina is just a non-legally binding temporary understanding. ;-)
Don't worry, Dusko. The 85% of Montenegro will remember this and the other crimes you and your UDBA bandits led by Djukanovic committed when justice comes knocking on your door!
Dwight the covert Ustasha is lying! Montenegro is not a real democracy. With a small population, a large public sector that votes on command, impoverished people willing to sell their votes and media blackouts-it's obvious how the same criminals "win" their elections. No legitimacy! Lock them up!
85% were against it, but you call it moving forward democratically. Does stupidity comes natural to you or do you work hard on it?
(sj, 5 February 2018 13:13)
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:01)
They think if they steal then everyone else does too. Its the same old mantra about the Serbian churches in Kosovo. The Albanians claim its their property when even Byzantine records show that Serbs built them. Its a mental disease.
In a real democracy 85% of your people telling you to do one thing and then you doing the opposite is a death sentence to the "democracy" you claim tfo have. Martinovic is incredibly stupid for choosing to say this out loud. This is all the proof you would ever need to show monte negro is not a democracy but a puppet state. Every major move they make is made without majority support. Maybe not today or tomarrow but t his is going to blow up in their faces badly.
From Dwight (the Croatian revisionist): "In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%"
What kind of convoluted logic is that? Just because someone votes for a political party doesn't mean they agree with every position of that party. The vast majority of Montenegrins were and are against Kosovo independence. Have you ever been there Dwight or are you talking about subjects that you know nothing about as you have in the past? You've already demonstrated that you're bad with numbers, no need to keep reinforcing the point! LOL
rote kapelle, 5 February 2018 16:27)
No matter how you vote putin Is the president
Komunist don't know voting , you are komunist
(Albanian American, 5 February 2018 18:58)
========================
Putin remains the president because his approval is in the 80s.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody. They don't get voted in and they can't be voted out. Now that's democracy.
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
(Who, 5 February 2018 20:17)
@ who - 😂, he came to tell Thaci that “Kosova” can’t have land they thought was theirs!
You’re proud of this and call it a “official” visit?😂
He didn’t come with investments, he came to tell you you can’t have their land...Holy Cow;) sometimes best not to speak, dude!
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
(sj, 6 February 2018 10:19
=========================
How can you steal what is already yours?
Montenegrins are Serbs therefore the history is mutual. Problem is some have fallen for the lie that Montenegro is a separate ethnicity to Serbia.
Their history is our history and our history is their history.
Also the 85% figure seems way too high, Markovic is trying to show Haradinaj that he put his neck on the line for Kosovo, and therefore Kosovo should sign the demarcation agreement
(Dwight, 5 February 2018 15:28)
NO MATTER HOW WE VOTE.
ALL OVER THE WORLD MATTERS HOW THEY COUNT IT ...
As with most modern countries, Montenegro is a parliamentary representative democracy, you vote for the politicians and they implement policies. You don't have a referendum for every law.
=======================
Dwight, they are supposed to represent the people who voted for them not dictate to them.
Did they campaign on that platform? Do they have the mandate? You see, something this important should be listened to the will of people. They didn't have to have a referendum. They only had to look at the polls and even if they didn't believe the figures they must've known that more than half didn't want what they still went ahead and did.
You don’t even know what a democracy is or how it should function. In a democracy all parties seeking office campaign on a list of issues and if elected they implement them. If the Montenegrin governing party had campaigned prior to the last election to recognise Kosovo and won, then there would be no qualms, but you see they never did.
Even if its 65% against, and it was never a party policy in the last election, then in any democratic system you must ask the people how they wish to go. Just like joining NATO. But then the western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
(Joni, 6 February 2018 09:39)
If you play with it any more it will fall off. What are Serbs trying to steal from Montenegrin? History what History or what churches? Are you naturally dumb or do you work on it? We are not Albanians, we dont steal other people's property.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
========================
Dwight, so then what happened? How come such a swing against NATO or don't you believe the polls?
I have always stated that you can have any outcome you desire in any poll as long as you select the right demographic to poll but even if you take that into account it's still a huge swing against NATO.
Either the stats were wrong or manipulated then or clearly people have changed their mind. Either way the government should pay attention to the will of the people.
As I said you have no idea about democracy. Since its closer to 20% why would any vote be close? It should be a clear win for the current government. Sorry my little friend but BS is always BS.
I am not demanding referendums at every corner but on major issues such as Kosovo or NATO. Why not hold a referendum for NATO? Because the polls are BS and there is great fear it would not come up.
Western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
Your argument on Switzerland and Montenegro does not hold water.
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
======================
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
============================
Do you have a rational comeback ever?
So tell us, or you great genious, are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
Rote Kapelle I was watching a Russian movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGTrQcS8c2s last night. Approved financed by the Russian government even mad Vlad's stamp of approval. The jest of it a beautiful Russian FSB aka KGB officer that's suppose to represent mad Vlad fairy tale story. Takes on EU, CIA, Islam terrorism supported by kindly intelligent KGB ljublianka holocaust central. The beautiful FSB/KGB agent was about to be snuffed out by the CIA. When all of a sudden the Russian cavalry appears fighter jets, attack helicopters makes the Americans shit their pants. Russia, KGB saves the world even America. Wow good recruiting movie for Russian simpletons for KGB and mad Vlad's army. I can even understand Russian as if they were talking Croatian. It must of been when wee ruled over you guys and establish the first Slavic states.
LOL Serbs up in arms. When did the fascist Serbs with their Serb communist respect others rites. Like in Croatia 90% voted to leave the criminal Serboslavia communist prison. Also in Bosnia over 70% voted to leave and Kosovo 90% or Slovenia over 90%. In Montenegro needed 55% because criminal pathetic stupid Serbs were up in arms as usual. Even tried to overthrow in Montenegro with Russia dully elected Montenegrin government. Serbs wonder why no one likes them after all they did criminally in Ex Yugo.
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit."
How do you know anything about the vast majority of Montenegrins? Have you ever been there? Please answer honestly. I have and I have many family members there. Where do you get your numbers anyway? That which is published by the Djukanovic government? You need to pull your head out the sand. Montenegro's independence was achieved by attaining 55% of the vote. Hardly a vast majority. And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away based on promises given to them by Djukanovic, there very well may not have been a majority voting to break away. And now that those promises have gone unfulfilled, Djukanovic in all likelihood has lost the Albanian vote there. Not to mention the Albanians living abroad who were allowed to vote. I was there in October of 2016 when there were pro Serb demonstrations in downtown Podgorica. The Djukanovic gov't. came in and used tear gas a violence to break it up. If there were a fair vote today Montenegro would vote to reunite with Serbia. Just look at the attendance at the Serbian churches in Montenegro vs the Montenegrin churches. Take a guess whose are full and whose are empty. But you've never been there, so you wouldn't know.
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia. The whole point was if croatia can seceed from yugoslavia, why cant the serb entity in croatia seceed from croatia? Same principle in bisnia. Slovenia was let go by all parties. Second going by what you said, if the heavy majority votes a certain way it should be respected. So which way is it in this case? You contradict yourself and show zero knowledge all in a matter of a few sentences. Its pathetic.
Well Captain Crackpot has spoken, Serbs are both fascists and Communists LOL. Next it will be Serbs killed themselves in Jasenovac. You sure paedophile Croatian priests not still kiddy fiddling with you?
Let’s look at who likes Krovatia? Slovenia? Do I need to say it? Yes, I do, a very big NO. Do Bosniaks like Krovatians? Another very big NO, Do Serbs like Krovatians? A very big, big NO. Do Hungarians have problems with Krovatia? Yes. Anyone like Krovatia? NO.
I no see Kolinder at meeting of Slovenian and Serbian joint sitting of Parliament in Ljubljana. What happen? She missed the bus and still waiting for next one at bus stop LOL?
How do you feel when you see the Montenegrin PM in official visit to Kosovo?
How did you feel when you saw Maced. PM in official visit to Kosovo?
Just asking
He is 100 % right Kosova must vote for Demarkacioning for the sake of peace and stability in the region. Don't forget Montenegro did recognized Kosova against the wishes of their allies Serbia. All Kosova allies are telling Kosova vote demarkacioning and they are acting stupid. I know that those land belong to Albanians but this world is not perfect. Kosova,Albania,Bosnja,Montenegro,Croatia,Maqedonia,Greece,Sllovenia,Bullgaria,Rumania,Hungary and why not later Serbia need to have peace and get to work for better future for our people western EU looks at us inferiority. together we can prosper and have better life we most forget nationalistic ideology and get bussy to working together.
Lenard
Youre too ignorrant to even make sense. Your numbers are wayy off. You lack understanding of what even happened in yugoslavia.
(Ian, 6 February 2018 20:54)
Lenard is not whom you would think.
There are strong indicators, Lenard is a creation of the same psychopath who made Avni and bunch of other trolls here.
It is a pointless to answer any his posting, except if you make a little essay about sexual life of donkeys. This seem to nerve that imbecile.
The "owner" is not Albanian and not Croatian. Roger7 believes, it is a Canadian. I recall, this is a guy from Beograd or Novi Sad who posted here a while ago as "Danilo".
His goal is not express any meaningful opinion. His goal is to make as many people upset as possible.
It is interesting to observe, these "characters" never talk to each other. I don't recall that even a single time in well over 10 years.
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
(Dwight, 7 February 2018 12:16)
Yep, they the Montenegrin Government followed the Egyptian rules for democratic elections and got a majority and now it makes it all legal. You have been living in the US far too long.
When you talk to people there they just throw their hands up in the air and say what is the use of voting when the results are always the same - its rigged from the start. Djuko is President/Prime Minister for life LOL - this is supported by the west too. Ahh democracy and freedom; you cant beat them.
If 85% were agaist they will be on the streets protesting against.
But Acctually 99% of Montenegrins voted for Kosovo for not being the next Kosovo.
I find funny to see - how Montenegrins don't want to have a single connection with Serbs.
They will vote for everything against Serbs, because understand that they Just were lucky for not being the second 'Srebrenica'.
This man is just trying to be 'friendly" by telling that and try to convince Kosovo to sign the agreements with MNE.
If you tell to a Montenegrin that he speak Serbo- Croatian he is irritated. They said to me that Serbs are trying to steal their history, Church, heros...
So No - Montenegrins feel threatened by Serbia for this are trying to keep Serbs away of their country.
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
@njegos
Most voters did not care enough about Kosovo recognition issue to vote for an anti-recognition party.
The vast majority of Montenegrins who identifiy as Serbs (28-30% of poulation) were against recognition, but most of the country didn't give a shit.
(Dwight, 6 February 2018 17:08)
If you don't know the history of the region, your doomed making ill informed stupid remarks. For your information, Kosovo and Metohija is also part of the current borders of Montenegro. So, Montenegro in essence recognized part of it's border to the fake state of Kosovo. For this reason, the majority of Serbians and Montenegrins are against the so called state of Kosovo. The leadership of Montenegro is bought and paid for by the United States of America, the majority of it's citizens are not.
The Swiss have referendums regularly.
(sj, 6 February 2018 09:36)
In general parties did not openly campaign on Kosovo issue in the elections preceding recognition except for the Serb List , not recognizing Kosovo was one of its central policies.
In the presidential vote the Serb List got 20%, so the real number who were strongly against recongnition was closer to 20% than 85%
Based on polling of the citizens, Montenegro was justified in joining NATO and recognizing Kosovo and any referendum would likely have been won by the government although it would probably have been a close vote.
Montenegro is not Switzerland. Referedums in Switzerland are an established system there based on petitioning.
You can't just demand a referendum every time you disagree with the government. You are the only one screaming.
@sj
Switserland has a framework for deciding what requires a referendum, Montenegro doesn't, and what is a big issue for you is a small issue for someone else.
Kosovo recognition is only a big issue in Serbia. It was a pretty small issue in Montenegro otherwise the government would never have been re-elected, instead there was a single protest of 25,000 people
Who decides what is a big issue? If your referendum fails to get the result it wants, can it be a big issue again in 2 years?
Switzerland uses petitions, other countries require referendum for constitutional changes, your criteria for Montenegro to have referendum seems to be that something is a big issue if it displeases Serbian nationalists.
Official records eh. The official level of unemployment in the US is 4.7%, but then even the President does not believe that one and you are asking us to believe anything that Djukanovic churns out. That government could not lie strait in bed.
But I do love how people who have never been there like you but know more about Montenegro that others who have family living there.
@Peggy
I agree that the leaders are supposed to follow the policies that they promised. However polls show that the country was pretty evenly split for/against NATO membership for 10 years, with DPS voters being more pro Nato, so I would say that the government had the right to join NATO according to their support.
@Ari Gold
You are correct in the things you say about Montenegro where the government has a huge influence over the media and public sector votes. Just like with Serbia, the government is a type of mafia.
However this only seems to bother you when the decisions are going against you. When it is in your favour you start calling it "the will of the people". You can't have it both ways.
Here is Serbia, if there was free media and non-mafia government, there would be more support for independent Kosovo and NATO, but we are not allowed to have honest discussion about it.
PS
The main story in Informer newspaper in Serbia this week was that the CIA sent two assassins to Serbia to kill Vucic. The police managed to stop the assassination but the 2 killers got away so we must vote for Vucic, the only one to stand against the US-Deep-State-Assassins.
I am told that this is the most read newspaper in the country.
If you call someone "goat" ("козёл") in Russian - that's not a compliment.
As long as the situation is not cleaned up (proper registration process) - much here is about goats with donkeys.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07) # Comment link
ICQ. The EU you are referring consists of UNELECTED bureaucrats who are accountable to no one
Try having an original thought once instead of stupidly trying to answer questions with another question. You’re not talented enough to pull that off effectively
Dwight
Its wierd how you have been there so many times and show so little understanding of what is going on there. The last thing i want to hear is a westerners uninformed and misunderstood opinions on the balkans. The current state of the balkans is mostly a result of the wests "supreme understanding" of the balkans.
"Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement."
Again, you don't understand the historical significance of Montenegro recognizing Kosovo and Metohija. The founding nations of Serbs, namely the principality of Zeta and Raska are present day Serbia and Montenegro. Metohija is not only in the currently disputed territory of Kosovo but also in Montenegro. The current borders you are looking at in the former Yugoslavia was drawn up by our friend Tito to appease so called Macedonians, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and later Albanian Communists. Refer to the "Zeta" Banovina under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia
There was no evidence of any major corruption in the referendum. If 400,000 Serbs had come out to vote against independence, nothing would have stopped them.
Despite Djukanovic's criminiality and what "the man on the street" told you, inventing 100,000 pro-independence voters without being detected is not something that he can do.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
@Jugoslavija
Montenegro and Kosovo have a border dispute. Neither will get every inch of land that they claim. This is why they are making an agreement.
The governemnt knows that the long term prosperity of the country with EU membership and friendly relations with Kosovo is worth more than squablling over the border line.
Montenegro loses nothing and gains a lot if this agreement is completed.
@njegos
My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority.
"And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol.
There is no way in hell that Montenegro would vote to rejoin Serbia. If your family and friends in Montenegro did not want independence from Serbia why did they not vote accordingly?
I have been in Montenegro several times, but it doesnt matter you already have a response.
If the people I talked to disagreed with your opinion, then I was talking to the wrong people.
If the poll disagrees with your opinion, it was a fake poll.
If the vote goes against you, the opposition was bought, we should have a referendum.
If the referendum goes against you , it wasnt a big enough majority.
If the referndum majority was big, it was becasuse the ballots were faked
etc etc
I bet we can find an Albanian who visits Montenegro all the time and has family there who will tell us how everyone he knows in Montenegro is so happy that Kosovo is independent and wants them to join the UN.
It doesn't matter, the most important thing is the vote for parliament and the majority of Monenegrins decided not to vote for an anti-Kosovo party, therefore they decided that something else was more important.
I bet they hate when njegos visits, they just want to get on with their lives and make a living, send their kids to a good school, and njegos gets a week off from selling hotdogs to visit and tell them how international geopolitics really works, who really killed JFK, how the Bilderberg group runs the world etc , they probably just agree with him to make him shut up.
From Dwight the Croat revisionist: "My numbers are the official election results. Also, referendums do not require a "vast" majority to vote one way, just a majority."
Precisely the point Dwight. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about Montenegro questions anything and everything that comes from the official government. Ask the Italians who were prevented from bring Djukanovic up on cigarette smuggling charges because of diplomatic immunity. But then again, you'll believe anything as long as its anti-Serb.
More from Dwight: "And if you strip away the Albanians that voted to break away"
Sure, ignore the Albanian votes. Did it ever occur to you that ignoring the wishes of Albanians might be why Serbia is a mess at the moment. Lets just ignore the votes we don't agree with, lol."
Not surprisingly, you missed the point here. I was pointing out that the Slav majority (Serbs) were in favor of staying with Serbia. Even though Djukanovic claims the Slav majority in Montenegro considers themselves Montenegrins. Even though he had to pay Albanians living abroad to vote for separation.
I've already educated you on Jasenovac and the genocide committed by your ancestors. Now I see I have to educate you on Montenegro, my family's homeland. Once again, you're out of your league. And please don't tell me you've been there several times. No Ustasha apologist like you would spend money in Montenegro.
Dwight - You keep avoiding my question about how many of your relatives were Ustasha in WWII? You're either ashamed or you don't know the history of your own family. You've demonstrated you don't anything about the region, but I thought you were at least knowledgeable about your own family. Perhaps not. Waiting...waiting...waiting...
Perhaps you are right since the Swiss system only works in democratic countries that are attuned to western values, plus you might get a very different result in Montenegro LOL.
It does not matter what the people want since Montenegro is run by the likes of Djukanovic and they do what they like and supported by western democratic states.
As far as 25,000 turning up, well during the war in Iraq in Washington there were up to 500,000 people demonstrating and it barely got a mention on US news and when it did, the numbers were far less. It’s called controlling the media.
The last time there was a demonstration in Montenegro the freedom loving government ordered their police to use tear gas.
I think that joining NATO is a big issue, except for you and the west. If a referendum succeeds after a fair vote, which is not rigged, then the matter is closed. It should be accepted by all parties.
In any real democracy a revisit on an issue is not out of the question, but that’s only in a real democracy like the US LOL.
Who decides what should go to a referendum? Try using the polls properly and it might give you a hint and you don’t even have to have a Swiss style system.
Let me repeat, western democracies love countries that don’t hold referendums and rule without asking the people while they scream about democratic values.
@njegos
Why do you keep arguing against things that I never said.
I know Djukanovic is a criminal, I never said or implied anythign else, however diplomatic immunity is a thing in all countries, not just Montenegro.
My argument is not that Montengrins love Kosovo, it is that recognition is not as important to them as you think it is.
Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't.
You argument is that official documents and polls by respected organisations dont tell the truth about the demographics and voting intentions of the country but I can trust your chicken farmer uncle.
The Slav majority were not in favor of staying with Serbia, there was a referendum. If the Slav majority were in favour they would have won. No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them
From Dwight the Croatian revisionist: "...I know Djukanovic is a criminal..."
And then you go on to say that the voting in the referendum was done fairly. You seem to be contradicting yourself Dwight.
"Your family may identify strongly as Serb, but many don't."
Many do and more do every day. Initially, many in Montenegro felt slighted by Serbia and so the idea of an independent Montenegro sounded good. But now that it is obvious that Djukanovic is more interested in enriching himself rather than doing what's best for the people, the tide is turning. If you were there recently and had talked to the man on the street you would know this. But as I said previously, no Ustasha apologist would spend his money in Montenegro. Your countrymen would disown you. There is a very strong anti-Croat sentiment in Montenegro from the Slavs there.
"No amount of paid oppostion votes could have stopped them"
Wrong again Dwight. In a country with a population of 650,000 a small number of votes represents a sizeable percentage. Why do you think Djukanovic allowed Albanians living abroad to vote? Time to wake up Dwight.
And still waiting for the answer to my question about your relatives during WWII Waiting...waiting...waiting...
@Njegos
I have never dismissed Wikipedia as a reliable source.
You used the data from a paragraph on a Wikipedia page as a source, not noticing that the next paragraph explained how the previous data was no longer considered reliable and showed the up-to-date data. You couldn't read two more lines because of your short attention span.
Perhaps you could provide more reliable data on the referendum? Maybe you could explain how maybe 200,000 votes diappeared or were changed without detection?
Was every single government politician in on it, all election monitors, all major newspapers, all census collectors, all voting station staff?
Show me the dozens of videos of ballot-box stuffing and the graves of the whistle-blowers. Show me the convoys of 1000s of anti-independence voters bussed in from abroad.
I cant reply here any more, this is ridiculous , you have nothing to back up anything you say.
Dwight the Croatian revisionist - Number 1: You made light of Wikipedia and accused me of using it as a reliable source. I never used Wikipedia as a source and I provided you with verifiable and researchable sources that you chose to ignore, instead accusing me of using Wikipedia. Very shameful! Number 2: You keep ignoring my question about your relatives and their WWII affiliations and activities. Why do you keep running away from this question Dwight?
You're a coward Dwight just like all the other revisionists. You can't face the reality of your own people, so its no surprise that you can't face the reality of your own family. Must be sad going through life having to hide your family history and always trying to rewrite the history of your countrymen. It's been fun exposing for the fraud that you are and much easier than I thought. LOL
@njegos
From looking at the census figures, LESS people are declaring themselves as Serbs over the last number of years.
I don't care whether you call yourself a Serb or a Montenegrin but you are wrong. Here from your favourite source...Wikipedia.
Your obvious contempt for non-Serbs and people who prefer to be called Montenegrins will only divide your homeland more.
Maybe you can tell me how did the government hide the fact that 450,000 fanatic anti-independence Serbs+Montenegrins voted against Independence.
The official pro vote was 230,711, that means the gov disappeared over 200,000 votes.
Dwight - I find it interesting and even comical that you call the leader of Montenegro a criminal and then you quote census figures compiled by this same government. Then you criticize me for using old numbers and then you recite numbers compiled from a corrupt government tallied 15 years ago! And finally, you dismiss Wikipedia as an unreliable source, and then you use Wikipedia to support your weak arguments. The more you talk the more you contradict yourself.
Dwight, everyone knows a 3rd grader can change Wikipedia and yet you use this as a reliable source! But then again, debating with you is like debating a 3rd grader. (Sorry to all the 3rd graders out there)
And still waiting for you to answer the question about your relatives during WWII...and waiting...and waiting...That's OK Dwight, if my relatives were Ustasha I'd be embarrassed too.
At least the people have a vote, who votes for the EU scum?
That's right. Nobody.
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:53)
So, according to you, the EU was created and is controlled by aliens lol
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:07)
Another well-thought out response from icj1 the Serb Hater. I rest my case.
(njegos, 6 February 2018 18:27)
Even though you consider Serbs as either scum or aliens or both, Serbs are neither scum nor aliens. But, yes, you can rest your case since you definitively showed that you are a Serb hater.
are EU officials elected and who votes for them.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:19)
Of course, dear. All EU officials are directly or indirectly elected by the EU citizens. Rest assured that, except in your dreams, there does not exist any EU official that is elected by aliens.
They only had to look at the polls
(Peggy, 5 February 2018 21:57)
Really?!!! But according to a true Serb patriot, you can make any poll to your advantage with a little clever manipulation of demographics and phrasing...
(icj1, 6 February 2018 03:14)
Yes you can. I've often said that but the numbers are so high that even when you allow for manipulation it's still a no.
(Peggy, 6 February 2018 11:17)
How so?! If the pollster is corrupt and changes the result from, say, 30% to 90%, that changes a "no" to "yes" or a "yes" to "no" with a stroke of a pen. It does not really matter how high or low the true numbers are (always according to a true Serb patriot) lol
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