Thursday, 27.07.2017.
13:04
Macedonian PM Zoran Zaev is ready to make concessions "if Athens is ready to drop its opposition to Macedonia’s membership of the EU and NATO."
Izvor: Tanjug
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
No mater how many years have passed-no mater if the fucking Greek state has even deleted our own villages names and replaced them with non existent archaic wannabe bullshit names-we will never sleep quiet until the historical truth is accessible to anybody without censorship
pre 6 godina
To 1912 stin alvania ypeirxan 10 tetia autonoma kratidia. Oi ntopioi antistatheikan .To oti typosane stin Athina mia simaia kai ena gramatosimo den paei na pei oti to ekane o laos.Prin apovivastoun ta ellhnika stratevmata edwsan polemo kai xasane polous antres. Itan mperdemeni epoxi tote ....apo pano serboi,mavrovounioi apo tin ali tourkoi kai ellhnes mas sakatepsane.
pre 6 godina
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century?
Really? Says who? Not Schumacher and Matzinger who tried to reconstruct the origins of the Albanian language and test the Albanian claims that it originates from the Illyrian one.Alas, the results pointed out the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian when compared, they had nothing in common.
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,
You contradict yourself. You insinuate that Albanians have been around for 5000 years and then you concede the Greeks built those cities 2000 years ago.Where were the Albanians then? Why there isn’t any Albanian-built city in Albania? How do you account for the fact that almost all toponyms in the North of Albania and Kosovo are Serbian? How do you account that there is no trace of anything Albanian in the Balkans?
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity,
The words ethnos and ethnicity are Greek and go back to antiquity. Ancient Greeks developed the concept of their own "ethnicity", which they grouped under the name of Hellenes During the Turkish domination there was no Greek or Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith The Orthodox ones were called Rums, placed among the rest of Greeks while those of Muslim faith felt themselves as Turks thereof the term Turk-Albanian resulted.There was no Albanian nation.It was manufactured by Austria.
pre 6 godina
Leonida
Saying that Albanians came with few ships from Sicili and made the Albanian nation of today is tragi-comics. Seriously.
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century ?!
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,just bc the architecture of bldg is considered "Greek architecture " today, is same as saying that every city in the world that has highrises ,is American bc today the high rise bldg is American thing.
"Greek" in antiquity is consider culture, influence.. not ethnicity.
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity, just as Macedonia today.Modern Greece is formed on religious grounds of multiethnic populace,alias Greek orthodox. You are Greek bc you are religiously Greek orthodox, that's all.
Albanian concept is totally different that Greek nor Srp can't understand no matter how hard you try. Both of you base your Greeknes or Srpnes on religious grounds vs Albanians that base there Albanianism on ethnic grounds. WZHP
pre 6 godina
HELLENIC SWORD
You called us nazi,ultra nationalists ,haters ,anti -Greek, etc. You forget that we are not telling nothing more only the plain truth and facts based on real events also confirmed by Greek historians . In your opinion what are they ? They say the same things like most of us here in b92 forums. It is a taboo to speak about the truth in Greece?
Let's not forget that Greece is the most fascist and racist country in EU towards minorities and don't forget that you have a large assimilated Albanian,Macedonian,Serbian,Bulgarian and Turkish minorities who have no rights to speak their mother tongue language,no rights for better education,schools and integration in Greek society.
It's sad but is true.
pre 6 godina
Border change is a big taboo in Europe today. I don't see any time where it WASN'T the direct consequence of a war. For example, let's take Kosovo. Albanians in Kosovo have wanted independence since day one, all the way back to 1913. Up to 1999, they didn't achieve it. Other populations around Europe want independence as well (Spain is the perfect example), and they still do not get it. Do you know why Kosovan Albanians got what they wanted?
Because Serbia sucks in minority treatment, like most European countries. But there's a difference. To top it all off, Serbia sends a whole army that does great in committing war crimes. Doing that in the middle of Europe is a big no-no. You can covertly oppress a people all you want, but if you touch those strings, it's over for you. NATO intervenes to prevent further rapes and murders, nobody trusts Serbia anymore, therefore Kosovo is put under international administration until it declares independence.
Now, unless the Macedonian army starts raping and killing ethnic Albanians, which it won't, forget border changes. In my opinion, Europe has a rule. Borders don't change without a cruel war.
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
Why don't you find some Albanian historians that talk about the atrocities committed against Greeks during WW2 and post videos about them? You are just an ultra natioanlist manipulor trying to generate hate against Greeks to justify expansionism. During WW2, the Nazis, much like you used allleged rights of Germans living in other states to justify expansionism.. Fanatics like you only understand war and death.
pre 6 godina
delon @
I have nothing against Albanian people but I do have a problem with anybody (albanian or otherwise) that attempts to insinuate parts of my homeland belong to some other country. That's words of fascism and conflict not human rights.
pre 6 godina
Suliote Arberor
"During the Axis occupation of Greece between 1941 and 1944, large parts of the Albanian minority in the Thesprotia prefecture in Epirus, northwestern Greece, known as Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες, Tsamides) collaborated with the occupation forces.[1] Fascist Italian as well as Nazi German propaganda promised that the region would be awarded to Albania (then in personal union with Italy) after the end of the war. As a result of this pro-Albanian approach, many Muslim Chams actively supported the Axis operations and committed a number of crimes against the local population both in Greece and Albania."
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas the lying lion
Suliotes are Albanians, they don't have nothing in common with Greeks. Suliotes fought against the Greeks and Turks for their own freedoms. That's why Greeks and Turks tried to arrest and put in jail all the Albanian Suliote leaders after the revolution was over. The word Suliote doesn't have any logical meaning in Greek language. Greeks don't speak the Albanian Suliote Arberisht language and greeks don't have the Albanian Suliote traditions. you are worshipping Albanians as heroes because you are ignorant for your own heritage and you don't have your own heroes for revolution 1821.
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
Since Marko Boçari is Greek name???
Since Zenel is a Greek name ??? Since Gjoleka is a Greek name ??? Or now you will say that h was called Zenilis Golekìs
pre 6 godina
"Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli."
This is the usual idiocy upon which the Greek megaloidea is built, similar to what the Serbs used to say about Kosovars as Albanian-speaking Serbs, before they gave up that absurdity.
Mako Bocari - regardless of how many s's you add to his name to make him sound as a Greek - was, in fact, a typical Albanian.
His name is a typical Albanian name, still in use in Albania today by the descendants of the family.
He only learned Greek as an adult during the Suliote exile in Corfu, where he wrote an Albanian-Greek dictionary, with the help of his father and uncle.
He was also a captain of the Albanian Regiment of the French army in Corfu. If he was a Greek, why was he not part of the Greek Regiment?
All of the western visitors of the area testified that the Suliots spoke the Albanian dialect of Chameria.
The Suli name itself comes from Albanian, as do the names of most of its villages: Qafa, Kungi, Bira, Gura, Feriza, Shtreza, Dembes, Vreku i Vetetimes, Shen Premte, etc.
"Arvanitophone Greek" might be your euphemism for an Albanian Orthodox, but it doesn't Marko Bocari a Greek. The fact that he fought in the Greek revolutionary war also doesn't make him a Greek, more than it makes, let's say, General Lafayette an American.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD, 30 July 2017 00:41)
I see you hating Maledonians don't have a problem when it comes to Greek a55, like you have problem in your country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY0d5hCa-e0
pre 6 godina
Swetie Iam gonna need you to put your few remaining brain cells together and work with me here,OK? I am certain Greek Arvanites will be touched by the kind words and thoughts of Muslim Albanians who were suppressing them for over 400 years and tried to exterminate them on several attempts.The census of 2011 wasn’t carried out by me but by the Greek state and supervised by OSCE and the EU and therefore their results are beyond any doubt.If you visit the US or Canada or Australia you’ll see a number of Greek-Arvanites associations as well as Greek-Pontiak ones and you’ll sense that many Greeks emigrated into their thousands over the years.Hence the reduction on the numbers of Arvanites.
Your claim that South Epirus is Albanian is not only ahistorical fallacy but also laughable.Not only South Epirus is Greek and well documented by historians but also South Albania. Dyrrhachion, Argyrokastro,Vlore, Chimera,Agioi Saranda,and Butrinti are all ancient Greek cities. Historians know that Albanians were brought to Northern Epirus by the Byzantine ruler Maniakis from Sicily in the 11th century to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercanaries came, and then came the women and children.These events were described by Michael Ataliotis in his chronicle:"Historia,Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae".
There is nothing ancient about modern Albanians.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD
Bulgaro-Fyromians should stick to what they know best.That is creating new aliases to hide themselves and continue with their conspiracy theories.
pre 6 godina
Greeks don't have anything else so they boast about ancient Greece because the Greek Revolutionaries were mostly ethnic albanian LOL. Meanwhile greeks have nothing to do with ancient greeks, they are turks, turcopole gypsy.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
pre 6 godina
@leonidas
As you say on 1834 there were circa 200.000 Arvanitas (Albanians) living in Greece of that time of about little less then 700.000 habitants. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_modern_Gr
Now add the South Epir with mostly,not to say 100 Albanian population, that Greece forcefully grabbed on 1912-1913 . Now do the math of how much Albanians live in Greece today or of what % of Albanian descent is the Greek population made of today.
You see how comical is you claim that you say ,2011 there are 95000 Arvanitas on population of more than 10.milion of Greece today, when on 1834 there were 200.000 Albanians on population of 700.000 that Greece had at that time.
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience.
Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli.His Greek conscience is confirmed by his famous phrase when he first arrived to the Ionian isles.“As a Greek I can’t feel free where the British flag flies”.If one needs to mention any Albanian participation to the Greek Liberation Struggle then one needs not to refer to Botsaris and others but instead to Turk-Albanians used by the Ottomans as slaughterers of the Greeks.During the Orlof uprising in 1770 Albanians committed genocide against the Greek population.From Wiki:
“The Muslim Albanian mercenaries hired by the Ottomans remained in the Peloponnese for several years after the suppression of the revolt, and they allegedly "ran wild", pillaging the country and massacring Greeks, as revenge for the Christian forces' massacre of Muslim civilians and destruction of property during the uprising.Referred to by the local Greek populace as "Turk-Albanians", those forces had also destroyed many cities and towns in Epirus during 1769–70. n Patras nearly no one was left alive after the Turkish-Albanian invasion.
Again during the French rule of Preveza in 1798 Ali Pasha didn’t only massacre the Few french troops stationed in the city but the Greek population as well.
https://www.triposo.com/loc/Preveza/history/background
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience. they spoke the Albanian language as their mother language and they didnt even speak the greek language during those times. the very word Arvanite was a middle ages term used to describe only Albanian people, Arvanite means Albanian, so when you claim Arvanites are greeks, you are trying to claim that Albanians are greeks. same thing with the Epirote Albanians. the Epirote heritage is preserved by Albanians. the modern greeks of today are the most mixed with turks more than anyone in Europe. the christian Turkogreeks together with the ottoman muslim Turks put in jail and tried to kill all the revolutionary heroes after the war because they wanted a Turkish greek government without Albanians and Arumanian vlahs
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas
Free the ancient Epirote lands of Albania from the Turkish sperm Turkogreeks. all of greece is property of the Albanians hundreds of years before greece was created in 1831
pre 6 godina
I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
I gave you the name of the author who produced those figures and the page number.What else do you need?
All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
These are Albanian made up lies to exaggerate their own importance. The last census of 2011 showed a population of 480000 Albanians out of which 384000 were recent immigrants.The number of declared Arvanites was 95000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Because the census figures say so.Only deluded people like yourself think that
A Christian country can achieve a five-fold population growth in 150 years through birth rates
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
I’ve said many times that no modern world historian claims modern people are the same as the ancient ones in terms of DNA.What matters is the continuation of language and culture which ensures the evolution of a population in a historical sense.
I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you.
Unfortunately Albanians have nothing else to say than resort to DNA myths, and anti-Greek propaganda
pre 6 godina
MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND ALWAYS WILL REMAIN GREEK
pre 6 godina
But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
(Leonidas,
You can call me names all you want. I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
Let's for a second assume the figures you quoted above are correct. Albanians made up 10% of the population in the late 1800s. All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Arvanites speak Albanian Tosk. Is that a new Greek dialect?
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
If you aren't cowardly, I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you. I doubt you have the guts to do it.
pre 6 godina
"You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians"
Here's what the Greek historians themselves have to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI6zw4jW3Y
It's apparent that you are the one with fantasies.
pre 6 godina
"MKD"
You can use as many aliases as you like but you cannot con anyone any longer.You definitely need help as you don't seem to recognise that you are little more than a brainwashed, walking, talking inferiority complex. Blindly doing the bidding of people who regard you as little more than refuse, to be discarded once your usefulness has expired. Who's paying you to keep repeating yourself?
pre 6 godina
Joining the EU but especially NATO would guarantee the stability of Macedonia and close the door to the aspirations of some groups of people and their "Greater..." projects. It will be tricky to get to that point though. See what happened in Montenegro before it joined NATO. Russia will sponsor all sorts of opponents to Zaev. He must be especially careful with Russia's tools in Serbia and Greece.
pre 6 godina
I love you Zaev! Thank you for reuniting us with our Bulgarian brothers :)
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
I find your comment really amusing.Not even Enver Hoxha or his disciples Ali Berisha & gay Rama would ever make such a claim! .But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
The only common feature between Greeks and Albanians are the borders-nothing
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
(BLACK EAGLE,
Albanians were lucky both in 1912 at the battle of Bizani when the Greek army chased the Turko-Albanians and Ottoman Turks to Albania and in 1940 when did the same to the combined Italian and Albanian invaders.Next time you won't have such luck we#ll come in and get all our ancient lands occupied by the Caucasian Albos.Prepare yourself for a GS special treatment!!!
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma.
(elefterios,
You may be right about the modern day Macedonians. But, if you peel the curtain you will find that modern day Greeks are primarily Ethnic Albanian, Ethnic Turks, Ethnic Bulgarian, Roma, etc.
If you're a true Greek patriot then you probably have Albanian blood running through your veins. Converts tend to become hardliners. Just look at Milosevic who has Albanian ancestry. Same goes for Ari Gold.
pre 6 godina
AEGEAN MACEDONIA IN TODAY'S NORTHERN GREECE WAS OCCUPIED BY GREEK SOLDIERS IN 1912 AND REMAINS TO BE OCCUPIED BY GREECE TO THIS DAY . AEGEAN MACEDONIA DOES NOT BELONG TO GREECE OR THE GREEKS - AEGEAN MACEDONIA BELONGS TO THE MACEDONIANS WHO SPEAK THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
pre 6 godina
Modern Greeks are brainwashed Albanians who pretends to be descendent of Hellenes.
pre 6 godina
Macedonia was NEVER Greek, and NEVER will be. Macedonia has been recognized by Serbia and all Europe as an independent sovereign nation the same as it has always been throughout antiquity, despite the ongoing turkogreek propaganda and lies.... first these modern Turkogreeks brainwashed hellenic trash wannabes making false claims for Pelasgians, then for the Albanian heroes such as GEORGOS KASTRIOTA, and now for Macedonia. Aegean Macedonia has been illegally occupied by this swarthy turkogreek barbarian hordes since 1913.
FREEDOM TO SOLUN!!!
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
pre 6 godina
We had enough of the rhetoric from Skopje. This is not early 2000 any more, this is 2017 and a lot of hate has been sent for the last 15 years from gruevski and his people towards the Greeks. Talking on behalf of Greek nationalists, we are not interested any more in any sort of concessions or discussions or whatever.
Keep all of your recommendations for "agreement" for internal purposes and feel free to blame once more Greece for everything relevant to your incompetence as diplomats, your failure to realise your position in the food chain and for making an enemy out of your neighbours.
We are not interested in even having a discussion with someone like you. Keep your turkish and albanian friends, you deserve them.
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma. This is what it is.
As much as I loathe Golden Dawn, the person Dimitrov should be negotiating with on the name issue is Ilias Kasidiaris. He would be a match for any one of these historically deluded Slavs. No compromise. No concessions. No tolerance. A name that befits your nation is required. Stay in Bitola you uneducated farm animals
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Your usual crap apart,does the name Olympia sounds to you as Albanian?
Chronologically speaking, Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to acquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you
pre 6 godina
Concessions Republic seems to replace FYROM soon.
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Does the name Olympia sound Albanian to you?As to Epirus -hronologically speaking- Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.
If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to aquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you.
pre 6 godina
Time for Zaev to bend over and spread his cheeks
pre 6 godina
Time for the balkans oldest nation the Albanians to have their voices heard loud & clear!
All this BULLSH.. and fantasy history being spewed about Alexander the Great? When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
pre 6 godina
Time for the balkans oldest nation the Albanians to have their voices heard loud & clear!
All this BULLSH.. and fantasy history being spewed about Alexander the Great? When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Does the name Olympia sound Albanian to you?As to Epirus -hronologically speaking- Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.
If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to aquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you.
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma. This is what it is.
As much as I loathe Golden Dawn, the person Dimitrov should be negotiating with on the name issue is Ilias Kasidiaris. He would be a match for any one of these historically deluded Slavs. No compromise. No concessions. No tolerance. A name that befits your nation is required. Stay in Bitola you uneducated farm animals
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Your usual crap apart,does the name Olympia sounds to you as Albanian?
Chronologically speaking, Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to acquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you
pre 6 godina
Modern Greeks are brainwashed Albanians who pretends to be descendent of Hellenes.
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
(BLACK EAGLE,
Albanians were lucky both in 1912 at the battle of Bizani when the Greek army chased the Turko-Albanians and Ottoman Turks to Albania and in 1940 when did the same to the combined Italian and Albanian invaders.Next time you won't have such luck we#ll come in and get all our ancient lands occupied by the Caucasian Albos.Prepare yourself for a GS special treatment!!!
pre 6 godina
Time for Zaev to bend over and spread his cheeks
pre 6 godina
Macedonia was NEVER Greek, and NEVER will be. Macedonia has been recognized by Serbia and all Europe as an independent sovereign nation the same as it has always been throughout antiquity, despite the ongoing turkogreek propaganda and lies.... first these modern Turkogreeks brainwashed hellenic trash wannabes making false claims for Pelasgians, then for the Albanian heroes such as GEORGOS KASTRIOTA, and now for Macedonia. Aegean Macedonia has been illegally occupied by this swarthy turkogreek barbarian hordes since 1913.
FREEDOM TO SOLUN!!!
pre 6 godina
MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND ALWAYS WILL REMAIN GREEK
pre 6 godina
We had enough of the rhetoric from Skopje. This is not early 2000 any more, this is 2017 and a lot of hate has been sent for the last 15 years from gruevski and his people towards the Greeks. Talking on behalf of Greek nationalists, we are not interested any more in any sort of concessions or discussions or whatever.
Keep all of your recommendations for "agreement" for internal purposes and feel free to blame once more Greece for everything relevant to your incompetence as diplomats, your failure to realise your position in the food chain and for making an enemy out of your neighbours.
We are not interested in even having a discussion with someone like you. Keep your turkish and albanian friends, you deserve them.
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma.
(elefterios,
You may be right about the modern day Macedonians. But, if you peel the curtain you will find that modern day Greeks are primarily Ethnic Albanian, Ethnic Turks, Ethnic Bulgarian, Roma, etc.
If you're a true Greek patriot then you probably have Albanian blood running through your veins. Converts tend to become hardliners. Just look at Milosevic who has Albanian ancestry. Same goes for Ari Gold.
pre 6 godina
I love you Zaev! Thank you for reuniting us with our Bulgarian brothers :)
pre 6 godina
I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
I gave you the name of the author who produced those figures and the page number.What else do you need?
All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
These are Albanian made up lies to exaggerate their own importance. The last census of 2011 showed a population of 480000 Albanians out of which 384000 were recent immigrants.The number of declared Arvanites was 95000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Because the census figures say so.Only deluded people like yourself think that
A Christian country can achieve a five-fold population growth in 150 years through birth rates
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
I’ve said many times that no modern world historian claims modern people are the same as the ancient ones in terms of DNA.What matters is the continuation of language and culture which ensures the evolution of a population in a historical sense.
I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you.
Unfortunately Albanians have nothing else to say than resort to DNA myths, and anti-Greek propaganda
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
I find your comment really amusing.Not even Enver Hoxha or his disciples Ali Berisha & gay Rama would ever make such a claim! .But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
The only common feature between Greeks and Albanians are the borders-nothing
pre 6 godina
"MKD"
You can use as many aliases as you like but you cannot con anyone any longer.You definitely need help as you don't seem to recognise that you are little more than a brainwashed, walking, talking inferiority complex. Blindly doing the bidding of people who regard you as little more than refuse, to be discarded once your usefulness has expired. Who's paying you to keep repeating yourself?
pre 6 godina
"You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians"
Here's what the Greek historians themselves have to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI6zw4jW3Y
It's apparent that you are the one with fantasies.
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas
Free the ancient Epirote lands of Albania from the Turkish sperm Turkogreeks. all of greece is property of the Albanians hundreds of years before greece was created in 1831
pre 6 godina
AEGEAN MACEDONIA IN TODAY'S NORTHERN GREECE WAS OCCUPIED BY GREEK SOLDIERS IN 1912 AND REMAINS TO BE OCCUPIED BY GREECE TO THIS DAY . AEGEAN MACEDONIA DOES NOT BELONG TO GREECE OR THE GREEKS - AEGEAN MACEDONIA BELONGS TO THE MACEDONIANS WHO SPEAK THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
pre 6 godina
Joining the EU but especially NATO would guarantee the stability of Macedonia and close the door to the aspirations of some groups of people and their "Greater..." projects. It will be tricky to get to that point though. See what happened in Montenegro before it joined NATO. Russia will sponsor all sorts of opponents to Zaev. He must be especially careful with Russia's tools in Serbia and Greece.
pre 6 godina
But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
(Leonidas,
You can call me names all you want. I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
Let's for a second assume the figures you quoted above are correct. Albanians made up 10% of the population in the late 1800s. All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Arvanites speak Albanian Tosk. Is that a new Greek dialect?
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
If you aren't cowardly, I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you. I doubt you have the guts to do it.
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience. they spoke the Albanian language as their mother language and they didnt even speak the greek language during those times. the very word Arvanite was a middle ages term used to describe only Albanian people, Arvanite means Albanian, so when you claim Arvanites are greeks, you are trying to claim that Albanians are greeks. same thing with the Epirote Albanians. the Epirote heritage is preserved by Albanians. the modern greeks of today are the most mixed with turks more than anyone in Europe. the christian Turkogreeks together with the ottoman muslim Turks put in jail and tried to kill all the revolutionary heroes after the war because they wanted a Turkish greek government without Albanians and Arumanian vlahs
pre 6 godina
Swetie Iam gonna need you to put your few remaining brain cells together and work with me here,OK? I am certain Greek Arvanites will be touched by the kind words and thoughts of Muslim Albanians who were suppressing them for over 400 years and tried to exterminate them on several attempts.The census of 2011 wasn’t carried out by me but by the Greek state and supervised by OSCE and the EU and therefore their results are beyond any doubt.If you visit the US or Canada or Australia you’ll see a number of Greek-Arvanites associations as well as Greek-Pontiak ones and you’ll sense that many Greeks emigrated into their thousands over the years.Hence the reduction on the numbers of Arvanites.
Your claim that South Epirus is Albanian is not only ahistorical fallacy but also laughable.Not only South Epirus is Greek and well documented by historians but also South Albania. Dyrrhachion, Argyrokastro,Vlore, Chimera,Agioi Saranda,and Butrinti are all ancient Greek cities. Historians know that Albanians were brought to Northern Epirus by the Byzantine ruler Maniakis from Sicily in the 11th century to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercanaries came, and then came the women and children.These events were described by Michael Ataliotis in his chronicle:"Historia,Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae".
There is nothing ancient about modern Albanians.
pre 6 godina
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century?
Really? Says who? Not Schumacher and Matzinger who tried to reconstruct the origins of the Albanian language and test the Albanian claims that it originates from the Illyrian one.Alas, the results pointed out the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian when compared, they had nothing in common.
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,
You contradict yourself. You insinuate that Albanians have been around for 5000 years and then you concede the Greeks built those cities 2000 years ago.Where were the Albanians then? Why there isn’t any Albanian-built city in Albania? How do you account for the fact that almost all toponyms in the North of Albania and Kosovo are Serbian? How do you account that there is no trace of anything Albanian in the Balkans?
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity,
The words ethnos and ethnicity are Greek and go back to antiquity. Ancient Greeks developed the concept of their own "ethnicity", which they grouped under the name of Hellenes During the Turkish domination there was no Greek or Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith The Orthodox ones were called Rums, placed among the rest of Greeks while those of Muslim faith felt themselves as Turks thereof the term Turk-Albanian resulted.There was no Albanian nation.It was manufactured by Austria.
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience.
Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli.His Greek conscience is confirmed by his famous phrase when he first arrived to the Ionian isles.“As a Greek I can’t feel free where the British flag flies”.If one needs to mention any Albanian participation to the Greek Liberation Struggle then one needs not to refer to Botsaris and others but instead to Turk-Albanians used by the Ottomans as slaughterers of the Greeks.During the Orlof uprising in 1770 Albanians committed genocide against the Greek population.From Wiki:
“The Muslim Albanian mercenaries hired by the Ottomans remained in the Peloponnese for several years after the suppression of the revolt, and they allegedly "ran wild", pillaging the country and massacring Greeks, as revenge for the Christian forces' massacre of Muslim civilians and destruction of property during the uprising.Referred to by the local Greek populace as "Turk-Albanians", those forces had also destroyed many cities and towns in Epirus during 1769–70. n Patras nearly no one was left alive after the Turkish-Albanian invasion.
Again during the French rule of Preveza in 1798 Ali Pasha didn’t only massacre the Few french troops stationed in the city but the Greek population as well.
https://www.triposo.com/loc/Preveza/history/background
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD
Bulgaro-Fyromians should stick to what they know best.That is creating new aliases to hide themselves and continue with their conspiracy theories.
pre 6 godina
Suliote Arberor
"During the Axis occupation of Greece between 1941 and 1944, large parts of the Albanian minority in the Thesprotia prefecture in Epirus, northwestern Greece, known as Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες, Tsamides) collaborated with the occupation forces.[1] Fascist Italian as well as Nazi German propaganda promised that the region would be awarded to Albania (then in personal union with Italy) after the end of the war. As a result of this pro-Albanian approach, many Muslim Chams actively supported the Axis operations and committed a number of crimes against the local population both in Greece and Albania."
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
Why don't you find some Albanian historians that talk about the atrocities committed against Greeks during WW2 and post videos about them? You are just an ultra natioanlist manipulor trying to generate hate against Greeks to justify expansionism. During WW2, the Nazis, much like you used allleged rights of Germans living in other states to justify expansionism.. Fanatics like you only understand war and death.
pre 6 godina
Concessions Republic seems to replace FYROM soon.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
pre 6 godina
Greeks don't have anything else so they boast about ancient Greece because the Greek Revolutionaries were mostly ethnic albanian LOL. Meanwhile greeks have nothing to do with ancient greeks, they are turks, turcopole gypsy.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD, 30 July 2017 00:41)
I see you hating Maledonians don't have a problem when it comes to Greek a55, like you have problem in your country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY0d5hCa-e0
pre 6 godina
@leonidas
As you say on 1834 there were circa 200.000 Arvanitas (Albanians) living in Greece of that time of about little less then 700.000 habitants. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_modern_Gr
Now add the South Epir with mostly,not to say 100 Albanian population, that Greece forcefully grabbed on 1912-1913 . Now do the math of how much Albanians live in Greece today or of what % of Albanian descent is the Greek population made of today.
You see how comical is you claim that you say ,2011 there are 95000 Arvanitas on population of more than 10.milion of Greece today, when on 1834 there were 200.000 Albanians on population of 700.000 that Greece had at that time.
pre 6 godina
delon @
I have nothing against Albanian people but I do have a problem with anybody (albanian or otherwise) that attempts to insinuate parts of my homeland belong to some other country. That's words of fascism and conflict not human rights.
pre 6 godina
Leonida
Saying that Albanians came with few ships from Sicili and made the Albanian nation of today is tragi-comics. Seriously.
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century ?!
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,just bc the architecture of bldg is considered "Greek architecture " today, is same as saying that every city in the world that has highrises ,is American bc today the high rise bldg is American thing.
"Greek" in antiquity is consider culture, influence.. not ethnicity.
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity, just as Macedonia today.Modern Greece is formed on religious grounds of multiethnic populace,alias Greek orthodox. You are Greek bc you are religiously Greek orthodox, that's all.
Albanian concept is totally different that Greek nor Srp can't understand no matter how hard you try. Both of you base your Greeknes or Srpnes on religious grounds vs Albanians that base there Albanianism on ethnic grounds. WZHP
pre 6 godina
HELLENIC SWORD
You called us nazi,ultra nationalists ,haters ,anti -Greek, etc. You forget that we are not telling nothing more only the plain truth and facts based on real events also confirmed by Greek historians . In your opinion what are they ? They say the same things like most of us here in b92 forums. It is a taboo to speak about the truth in Greece?
Let's not forget that Greece is the most fascist and racist country in EU towards minorities and don't forget that you have a large assimilated Albanian,Macedonian,Serbian,Bulgarian and Turkish minorities who have no rights to speak their mother tongue language,no rights for better education,schools and integration in Greek society.
It's sad but is true.
pre 6 godina
"Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli."
This is the usual idiocy upon which the Greek megaloidea is built, similar to what the Serbs used to say about Kosovars as Albanian-speaking Serbs, before they gave up that absurdity.
Mako Bocari - regardless of how many s's you add to his name to make him sound as a Greek - was, in fact, a typical Albanian.
His name is a typical Albanian name, still in use in Albania today by the descendants of the family.
He only learned Greek as an adult during the Suliote exile in Corfu, where he wrote an Albanian-Greek dictionary, with the help of his father and uncle.
He was also a captain of the Albanian Regiment of the French army in Corfu. If he was a Greek, why was he not part of the Greek Regiment?
All of the western visitors of the area testified that the Suliots spoke the Albanian dialect of Chameria.
The Suli name itself comes from Albanian, as do the names of most of its villages: Qafa, Kungi, Bira, Gura, Feriza, Shtreza, Dembes, Vreku i Vetetimes, Shen Premte, etc.
"Arvanitophone Greek" might be your euphemism for an Albanian Orthodox, but it doesn't Marko Bocari a Greek. The fact that he fought in the Greek revolutionary war also doesn't make him a Greek, more than it makes, let's say, General Lafayette an American.
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas the lying lion
Suliotes are Albanians, they don't have nothing in common with Greeks. Suliotes fought against the Greeks and Turks for their own freedoms. That's why Greeks and Turks tried to arrest and put in jail all the Albanian Suliote leaders after the revolution was over. The word Suliote doesn't have any logical meaning in Greek language. Greeks don't speak the Albanian Suliote Arberisht language and greeks don't have the Albanian Suliote traditions. you are worshipping Albanians as heroes because you are ignorant for your own heritage and you don't have your own heroes for revolution 1821.
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
Since Marko Boçari is Greek name???
Since Zenel is a Greek name ??? Since Gjoleka is a Greek name ??? Or now you will say that h was called Zenilis Golekìs
pre 6 godina
Border change is a big taboo in Europe today. I don't see any time where it WASN'T the direct consequence of a war. For example, let's take Kosovo. Albanians in Kosovo have wanted independence since day one, all the way back to 1913. Up to 1999, they didn't achieve it. Other populations around Europe want independence as well (Spain is the perfect example), and they still do not get it. Do you know why Kosovan Albanians got what they wanted?
Because Serbia sucks in minority treatment, like most European countries. But there's a difference. To top it all off, Serbia sends a whole army that does great in committing war crimes. Doing that in the middle of Europe is a big no-no. You can covertly oppress a people all you want, but if you touch those strings, it's over for you. NATO intervenes to prevent further rapes and murders, nobody trusts Serbia anymore, therefore Kosovo is put under international administration until it declares independence.
Now, unless the Macedonian army starts raping and killing ethnic Albanians, which it won't, forget border changes. In my opinion, Europe has a rule. Borders don't change without a cruel war.
pre 6 godina
To 1912 stin alvania ypeirxan 10 tetia autonoma kratidia. Oi ntopioi antistatheikan .To oti typosane stin Athina mia simaia kai ena gramatosimo den paei na pei oti to ekane o laos.Prin apovivastoun ta ellhnika stratevmata edwsan polemo kai xasane polous antres. Itan mperdemeni epoxi tote ....apo pano serboi,mavrovounioi apo tin ali tourkoi kai ellhnes mas sakatepsane.
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
No mater how many years have passed-no mater if the fucking Greek state has even deleted our own villages names and replaced them with non existent archaic wannabe bullshit names-we will never sleep quiet until the historical truth is accessible to anybody without censorship
pre 6 godina
Time for the balkans oldest nation the Albanians to have their voices heard loud & clear!
All this BULLSH.. and fantasy history being spewed about Alexander the Great? When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
pre 6 godina
Macedonia was NEVER Greek, and NEVER will be. Macedonia has been recognized by Serbia and all Europe as an independent sovereign nation the same as it has always been throughout antiquity, despite the ongoing turkogreek propaganda and lies.... first these modern Turkogreeks brainwashed hellenic trash wannabes making false claims for Pelasgians, then for the Albanian heroes such as GEORGOS KASTRIOTA, and now for Macedonia. Aegean Macedonia has been illegally occupied by this swarthy turkogreek barbarian hordes since 1913.
FREEDOM TO SOLUN!!!
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Does the name Olympia sound Albanian to you?As to Epirus -hronologically speaking- Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.
If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to aquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you.
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
pre 6 godina
Concessions Republic seems to replace FYROM soon.
pre 6 godina
When it's a well known fact that his mother was 100% Epirote from Epirus, inhabited exclusively by Illyrians today's Albanians!!!
(Peter The Rocky Mountains,
Your usual crap apart,does the name Olympia sounds to you as Albanian?
Chronologically speaking, Epirus was known as such since Odysseus's era ,long before the Albanians settled in the region, during the Byzantine and Ottoman times.When the Roman invasion of Ancient Greece occurred, the Romans didn't fight any Albanians but the three native tribes of Epirus: the Thesprotians,the Chaonians and the Molossians.The Illyrians weren't even native to the lands south of the present-day town of Durres.If you don't know WTF I'm talking about you can open some decent history books. If again respected and humble reader you don't have the time but you wish to acquire the references of the above statements just ask and I would be more than happy to provide them for you
pre 6 godina
It's time to create Natural Albania and a reminder to the Greeks Albanian borders goes up to Preveza. FREEDOM TO SOUTH EPIRUS ALBANIAN STOLEN HOLY LAND FOR CENTURIES.
(BLACK EAGLE,
Albanians were lucky both in 1912 at the battle of Bizani when the Greek army chased the Turko-Albanians and Ottoman Turks to Albania and in 1940 when did the same to the combined Italian and Albanian invaders.Next time you won't have such luck we#ll come in and get all our ancient lands occupied by the Caucasian Albos.Prepare yourself for a GS special treatment!!!
pre 6 godina
Modern Greeks are brainwashed Albanians who pretends to be descendent of Hellenes.
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma.
(elefterios,
You may be right about the modern day Macedonians. But, if you peel the curtain you will find that modern day Greeks are primarily Ethnic Albanian, Ethnic Turks, Ethnic Bulgarian, Roma, etc.
If you're a true Greek patriot then you probably have Albanian blood running through your veins. Converts tend to become hardliners. Just look at Milosevic who has Albanian ancestry. Same goes for Ari Gold.
pre 6 godina
But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
(Leonidas,
You can call me names all you want. I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
Let's for a second assume the figures you quoted above are correct. Albanians made up 10% of the population in the late 1800s. All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Arvanites speak Albanian Tosk. Is that a new Greek dialect?
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
If you aren't cowardly, I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you. I doubt you have the guts to do it.
pre 6 godina
AEGEAN MACEDONIA IN TODAY'S NORTHERN GREECE WAS OCCUPIED BY GREEK SOLDIERS IN 1912 AND REMAINS TO BE OCCUPIED BY GREECE TO THIS DAY . AEGEAN MACEDONIA DOES NOT BELONG TO GREECE OR THE GREEKS - AEGEAN MACEDONIA BELONGS TO THE MACEDONIANS WHO SPEAK THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas
Free the ancient Epirote lands of Albania from the Turkish sperm Turkogreeks. all of greece is property of the Albanians hundreds of years before greece was created in 1831
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience. they spoke the Albanian language as their mother language and they didnt even speak the greek language during those times. the very word Arvanite was a middle ages term used to describe only Albanian people, Arvanite means Albanian, so when you claim Arvanites are greeks, you are trying to claim that Albanians are greeks. same thing with the Epirote Albanians. the Epirote heritage is preserved by Albanians. the modern greeks of today are the most mixed with turks more than anyone in Europe. the christian Turkogreeks together with the ottoman muslim Turks put in jail and tried to kill all the revolutionary heroes after the war because they wanted a Turkish greek government without Albanians and Arumanian vlahs
pre 6 godina
Joining the EU but especially NATO would guarantee the stability of Macedonia and close the door to the aspirations of some groups of people and their "Greater..." projects. It will be tricky to get to that point though. See what happened in Montenegro before it joined NATO. Russia will sponsor all sorts of opponents to Zaev. He must be especially careful with Russia's tools in Serbia and Greece.
pre 6 godina
"MKD"
You can use as many aliases as you like but you cannot con anyone any longer.You definitely need help as you don't seem to recognise that you are little more than a brainwashed, walking, talking inferiority complex. Blindly doing the bidding of people who regard you as little more than refuse, to be discarded once your usefulness has expired. Who's paying you to keep repeating yourself?
pre 6 godina
Greeks don't have anything else so they boast about ancient Greece because the Greek Revolutionaries were mostly ethnic albanian LOL. Meanwhile greeks have nothing to do with ancient greeks, they are turks, turcopole gypsy.
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
I find your comment really amusing.Not even Enver Hoxha or his disciples Ali Berisha & gay Rama would ever make such a claim! .But of course you are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain you’re unable to produce any evidence in terms of historiography to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians were less 10% of the total population of Greece immediately after independence- 200.000 out of a total population of 2.000.000. This is attested by the eminent Albanologist Johan Georg Von Hahn in his book "Albansesische studien" (1854) page 34, search for it on books.google.com
The only common feature between Greeks and Albanians are the borders-nothing
pre 6 godina
"You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side fantasizes. Arvanites who have nothing to do with the Turko-Albanians"
Here's what the Greek historians themselves have to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI6zw4jW3Y
It's apparent that you are the one with fantasies.
pre 6 godina
MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND ALWAYS WILL REMAIN GREEK
pre 6 godina
I expect that from you and others who can't prove their assertions with facts.
I gave you the name of the author who produced those figures and the page number.What else do you need?
All things being equal there should be at least 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians living in Greece (excluding immigrants who moved after 1991).
These are Albanian made up lies to exaggerate their own importance. The last census of 2011 showed a population of 480000 Albanians out of which 384000 were recent immigrants.The number of declared Arvanites was 95000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece
Are there 1M Albanians in Greece? If not then why?
Because the census figures say so.Only deluded people like yourself think that
A Christian country can achieve a five-fold population growth in 150 years through birth rates
You should face your own feelings of inferiority and accept the fact that modern Greeks and ancient Greeks are not one of the same.
I’ve said many times that no modern world historian claims modern people are the same as the ancient ones in terms of DNA.What matters is the continuation of language and culture which ensures the evolution of a population in a historical sense.
I challenge you to take a DNA test. I bet you have either Albanian or Greek blood in you.
Unfortunately Albanians have nothing else to say than resort to DNA myths, and anti-Greek propaganda
pre 6 godina
The warriors and fighters that joined in the revolution of 1821 were not greeks and they did not have greek conscience.
Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli.His Greek conscience is confirmed by his famous phrase when he first arrived to the Ionian isles.“As a Greek I can’t feel free where the British flag flies”.If one needs to mention any Albanian participation to the Greek Liberation Struggle then one needs not to refer to Botsaris and others but instead to Turk-Albanians used by the Ottomans as slaughterers of the Greeks.During the Orlof uprising in 1770 Albanians committed genocide against the Greek population.From Wiki:
“The Muslim Albanian mercenaries hired by the Ottomans remained in the Peloponnese for several years after the suppression of the revolt, and they allegedly "ran wild", pillaging the country and massacring Greeks, as revenge for the Christian forces' massacre of Muslim civilians and destruction of property during the uprising.Referred to by the local Greek populace as "Turk-Albanians", those forces had also destroyed many cities and towns in Epirus during 1769–70. n Patras nearly no one was left alive after the Turkish-Albanian invasion.
Again during the French rule of Preveza in 1798 Ali Pasha didn’t only massacre the Few french troops stationed in the city but the Greek population as well.
https://www.triposo.com/loc/Preveza/history/background
pre 6 godina
Leonida
Saying that Albanians came with few ships from Sicili and made the Albanian nation of today is tragi-comics. Seriously.
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century ?!
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,just bc the architecture of bldg is considered "Greek architecture " today, is same as saying that every city in the world that has highrises ,is American bc today the high rise bldg is American thing.
"Greek" in antiquity is consider culture, influence.. not ethnicity.
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity, just as Macedonia today.Modern Greece is formed on religious grounds of multiethnic populace,alias Greek orthodox. You are Greek bc you are religiously Greek orthodox, that's all.
Albanian concept is totally different that Greek nor Srp can't understand no matter how hard you try. Both of you base your Greeknes or Srpnes on religious grounds vs Albanians that base there Albanianism on ethnic grounds. WZHP
pre 6 godina
Time for Zaev to bend over and spread his cheeks
pre 6 godina
We had enough of the rhetoric from Skopje. This is not early 2000 any more, this is 2017 and a lot of hate has been sent for the last 15 years from gruevski and his people towards the Greeks. Talking on behalf of Greek nationalists, we are not interested any more in any sort of concessions or discussions or whatever.
Keep all of your recommendations for "agreement" for internal purposes and feel free to blame once more Greece for everything relevant to your incompetence as diplomats, your failure to realise your position in the food chain and for making an enemy out of your neighbours.
We are not interested in even having a discussion with someone like you. Keep your turkish and albanian friends, you deserve them.
pre 6 godina
@leonidas
As you say on 1834 there were circa 200.000 Arvanitas (Albanians) living in Greece of that time of about little less then 700.000 habitants. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_modern_Gr
Now add the South Epir with mostly,not to say 100 Albanian population, that Greece forcefully grabbed on 1912-1913 . Now do the math of how much Albanians live in Greece today or of what % of Albanian descent is the Greek population made of today.
You see how comical is you claim that you say ,2011 there are 95000 Arvanitas on population of more than 10.milion of Greece today, when on 1834 there were 200.000 Albanians on population of 700.000 that Greece had at that time.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
pre 6 godina
HELLENIC SWORD
You called us nazi,ultra nationalists ,haters ,anti -Greek, etc. You forget that we are not telling nothing more only the plain truth and facts based on real events also confirmed by Greek historians . In your opinion what are they ? They say the same things like most of us here in b92 forums. It is a taboo to speak about the truth in Greece?
Let's not forget that Greece is the most fascist and racist country in EU towards minorities and don't forget that you have a large assimilated Albanian,Macedonian,Serbian,Bulgarian and Turkish minorities who have no rights to speak their mother tongue language,no rights for better education,schools and integration in Greek society.
It's sad but is true.
pre 6 godina
Its not the Republic of Macedonia. It’s the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It’s not Macedonian. Its Ethnic Bulgarian. Ethnic Albanian. Ethnic Vlach. Ethnic Turk. Ethnic Serb. Ethnic Roma. This is what it is.
As much as I loathe Golden Dawn, the person Dimitrov should be negotiating with on the name issue is Ilias Kasidiaris. He would be a match for any one of these historically deluded Slavs. No compromise. No concessions. No tolerance. A name that befits your nation is required. Stay in Bitola you uneducated farm animals
pre 6 godina
I love you Zaev! Thank you for reuniting us with our Bulgarian brothers :)
pre 6 godina
"Markos Botsaris was an Arvanitophone Greek like the majority of the inhabitants of Souli."
This is the usual idiocy upon which the Greek megaloidea is built, similar to what the Serbs used to say about Kosovars as Albanian-speaking Serbs, before they gave up that absurdity.
Mako Bocari - regardless of how many s's you add to his name to make him sound as a Greek - was, in fact, a typical Albanian.
His name is a typical Albanian name, still in use in Albania today by the descendants of the family.
He only learned Greek as an adult during the Suliote exile in Corfu, where he wrote an Albanian-Greek dictionary, with the help of his father and uncle.
He was also a captain of the Albanian Regiment of the French army in Corfu. If he was a Greek, why was he not part of the Greek Regiment?
All of the western visitors of the area testified that the Suliots spoke the Albanian dialect of Chameria.
The Suli name itself comes from Albanian, as do the names of most of its villages: Qafa, Kungi, Bira, Gura, Feriza, Shtreza, Dembes, Vreku i Vetetimes, Shen Premte, etc.
"Arvanitophone Greek" might be your euphemism for an Albanian Orthodox, but it doesn't Marko Bocari a Greek. The fact that he fought in the Greek revolutionary war also doesn't make him a Greek, more than it makes, let's say, General Lafayette an American.
pre 6 godina
@Leonidas the lying lion
Suliotes are Albanians, they don't have nothing in common with Greeks. Suliotes fought against the Greeks and Turks for their own freedoms. That's why Greeks and Turks tried to arrest and put in jail all the Albanian Suliote leaders after the revolution was over. The word Suliote doesn't have any logical meaning in Greek language. Greeks don't speak the Albanian Suliote Arberisht language and greeks don't have the Albanian Suliote traditions. you are worshipping Albanians as heroes because you are ignorant for your own heritage and you don't have your own heroes for revolution 1821.
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
Since Marko Boçari is Greek name???
Since Zenel is a Greek name ??? Since Gjoleka is a Greek name ??? Or now you will say that h was called Zenilis Golekìs
pre 6 godina
Border change is a big taboo in Europe today. I don't see any time where it WASN'T the direct consequence of a war. For example, let's take Kosovo. Albanians in Kosovo have wanted independence since day one, all the way back to 1913. Up to 1999, they didn't achieve it. Other populations around Europe want independence as well (Spain is the perfect example), and they still do not get it. Do you know why Kosovan Albanians got what they wanted?
Because Serbia sucks in minority treatment, like most European countries. But there's a difference. To top it all off, Serbia sends a whole army that does great in committing war crimes. Doing that in the middle of Europe is a big no-no. You can covertly oppress a people all you want, but if you touch those strings, it's over for you. NATO intervenes to prevent further rapes and murders, nobody trusts Serbia anymore, therefore Kosovo is put under international administration until it declares independence.
Now, unless the Macedonian army starts raping and killing ethnic Albanians, which it won't, forget border changes. In my opinion, Europe has a rule. Borders don't change without a cruel war.
pre 6 godina
Leonidas
No mater how many years have passed-no mater if the fucking Greek state has even deleted our own villages names and replaced them with non existent archaic wannabe bullshit names-we will never sleep quiet until the historical truth is accessible to anybody without censorship
pre 6 godina
delon @
I have nothing against Albanian people but I do have a problem with anybody (albanian or otherwise) that attempts to insinuate parts of my homeland belong to some other country. That's words of fascism and conflict not human rights.
pre 6 godina
To 1912 stin alvania ypeirxan 10 tetia autonoma kratidia. Oi ntopioi antistatheikan .To oti typosane stin Athina mia simaia kai ena gramatosimo den paei na pei oti to ekane o laos.Prin apovivastoun ta ellhnika stratevmata edwsan polemo kai xasane polous antres. Itan mperdemeni epoxi tote ....apo pano serboi,mavrovounioi apo tin ali tourkoi kai ellhnes mas sakatepsane.
pre 6 godina
Suliote Arberor
"During the Axis occupation of Greece between 1941 and 1944, large parts of the Albanian minority in the Thesprotia prefecture in Epirus, northwestern Greece, known as Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες, Tsamides) collaborated with the occupation forces.[1] Fascist Italian as well as Nazi German propaganda promised that the region would be awarded to Albania (then in personal union with Italy) after the end of the war. As a result of this pro-Albanian approach, many Muslim Chams actively supported the Axis operations and committed a number of crimes against the local population both in Greece and Albania."
pre 6 godina
Albanian language is 5000 years old and you say that we came on 11 century?
Really? Says who? Not Schumacher and Matzinger who tried to reconstruct the origins of the Albanian language and test the Albanian claims that it originates from the Illyrian one.Alas, the results pointed out the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian when compared, they had nothing in common.
As far as those Albanian cities that you mansion used to be Greek 2000 years ago,
You contradict yourself. You insinuate that Albanians have been around for 5000 years and then you concede the Greeks built those cities 2000 years ago.Where were the Albanians then? Why there isn’t any Albanian-built city in Albania? How do you account for the fact that almost all toponyms in the North of Albania and Kosovo are Serbian? How do you account that there is no trace of anything Albanian in the Balkans?
Modern Greece is formed on lies,as far as ethnicity,
The words ethnos and ethnicity are Greek and go back to antiquity. Ancient Greeks developed the concept of their own "ethnicity", which they grouped under the name of Hellenes During the Turkish domination there was no Greek or Albanian nation. The inhabitants of today’s Albania were distinguished by their faith The Orthodox ones were called Rums, placed among the rest of Greeks while those of Muslim faith felt themselves as Turks thereof the term Turk-Albanian resulted.There was no Albanian nation.It was manufactured by Austria.
pre 6 godina
cry me a river
Why don't you find some Albanian historians that talk about the atrocities committed against Greeks during WW2 and post videos about them? You are just an ultra natioanlist manipulor trying to generate hate against Greeks to justify expansionism. During WW2, the Nazis, much like you used allleged rights of Germans living in other states to justify expansionism.. Fanatics like you only understand war and death.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD
Bulgaro-Fyromians should stick to what they know best.That is creating new aliases to hide themselves and continue with their conspiracy theories.
pre 6 godina
Greeks are Christian Turks which worship Albanians as heroes
(MKD, 30 July 2017 00:41)
I see you hating Maledonians don't have a problem when it comes to Greek a55, like you have problem in your country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY0d5hCa-e0
pre 6 godina
Swetie Iam gonna need you to put your few remaining brain cells together and work with me here,OK? I am certain Greek Arvanites will be touched by the kind words and thoughts of Muslim Albanians who were suppressing them for over 400 years and tried to exterminate them on several attempts.The census of 2011 wasn’t carried out by me but by the Greek state and supervised by OSCE and the EU and therefore their results are beyond any doubt.If you visit the US or Canada or Australia you’ll see a number of Greek-Arvanites associations as well as Greek-Pontiak ones and you’ll sense that many Greeks emigrated into their thousands over the years.Hence the reduction on the numbers of Arvanites.
Your claim that South Epirus is Albanian is not only ahistorical fallacy but also laughable.Not only South Epirus is Greek and well documented by historians but also South Albania. Dyrrhachion, Argyrokastro,Vlore, Chimera,Agioi Saranda,and Butrinti are all ancient Greek cities. Historians know that Albanians were brought to Northern Epirus by the Byzantine ruler Maniakis from Sicily in the 11th century to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercanaries came, and then came the women and children.These events were described by Michael Ataliotis in his chronicle:"Historia,Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae".
There is nothing ancient about modern Albanians.
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