1. As I have implied before, any serious historian (and DNA expert) would simply tell you that almost all modern peoples (especially in the Balkans) are more or less the offspring of some degree of merger.Ethnicity (and its continuity)is dependent on culture, language, religion.
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 17:59)

    So true. And unless the society in question lives in complete isolation (like the Albanians), those three--culture, language and religion are continually changing. They are changing the other cultures, religions, and languages and are changed by them. This is like Hagel's dialectic--thesis meets antithesis and there is new thesis--it's a living, organic, process. Of course, the rate and degree of change is dependent on many factors, but modernization has greatly increased the contact and hence the rate and degree of change are continually increasing as well. Regarding isolation (lack of contact) one must note that a society or a people can be psychologically isolated even though not literally. To be isolated is a matter of being in communion with your brothers and sisters in the world, or not. And when you are spending your time and energy going around bragging about "whose idea the drachma was" and looking for ways to steal from others, that is not living in communion with them.
    (Balkan Observer, 26 January 2015 23:20)

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  2. Leonidas
    Boom

    Good 24 films will make both forget about everything youíve read before

    [link]


    then you may go for the details to

    [link]
    [link]
    (rote, 26 January 2015 21:36)

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  3. @Leonidas
    Looks that the documentary hit a raw nerve there.
    You are free to believe whatever makes you happy lad, but I didn't hear any valid argument as to why you don't agree with the findings. War veterans are like fisherman, they all have gotten the biggest fish.
    Kudos to the Greeks who had the courage to do analyse and review their history without nationalistic bias, it goes to show that they are way ahead of us, who remain stuck in denial about our past. Keep watching your belly button as if you are the center of the whole civilization, you are not! Let me tell you smth, if by some unusual catastrophe the whole balkan peninsula would disappear overnight, very few would notice.
    (boom, 26 January 2015 21:22)

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  4. rote,

    In considering your claims one has to start with the premise that all historians ie Greek,Ottoman and Western are involved in some kind of world-wide conspiracy which quite frankly i find the idea ridiculous.As I've said before I've never claimed that world history has been written accurately for various reasons.Literacy levels in ancient and medieval times were nearly non-existent and therefore various events were written by the elites of those societies.However,lack of literacy is not equal to conspiracy theories.

    BTW I have read a number of books on the Ottoman era written by Turkish historians and no one has ever quoted remotely the claims you make.
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 18:25)

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  5. Take the time to watch this Greek documentary from greek TV, they explain in detail how the greek state came into existence.
    Looks like the Greeks have had the courage to confront their history and dispel the myths, I only hope some day we will see the same documentary regarding our history and myths.
    [link]
    (boom,

    The Greek state came into existence by the death of over 250000 Greeks and not by German romantics. Personally I prefer receiving information from the horses mouth (memoirs from leaders of the Greek revolution) rather than some journalists making documentaries.As I have implied before, any serious historian (and DNA expert) would simply tell you that almost all modern peoples (especially in the Balkans) are more or less the offspring of some degree of merger.Ethnicity (and its continuity)is dependent on culture, language, religion.
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 17:59)

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  6. @Leonidas
    I am not claiming the the Greek people did not exist, but the modern greek state was an artificial construct of German romantics.
    Take the time to watch this Greek documentary from greek TV, they explain in detail how the greek state came into existence.
    Looks like the Greeks have had the courage to confront their history and dispel the myths, I only hope some day we will see the same documentary regarding our history and myths.
    [link]
    (boom, 26 January 2015 16:31)

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  7. Leonidas

    If you donít mind I can add arguments about the Ottoman Empire. I can give links of serious artifacts proving that before the end of the 17-th century it was an Orthodox Christian Empire. If I do it right now we shall sink in the details but before 1702 all the Sultans were buried in St.Sophia Church of Istanbul. And it wasnít a Mosque as they tell it today! Suleiman the Magnificent has built it as a church but not as a mosque! Donít pay any attention to the Muslim names of the Sultans because our current history is based on the Arab sources while the Sultans had many other names as well. Initially all of them were Christians and greater part of Mehmedís army were Russian Cossacks reflected as Yanichars. This I can also prove as well as that the attackers had strong support from inside. Mehmet granted autonomy to the Christians under Patriarch Gennady. To say nothing that all famous Sultans were born and buried in Adrianople inhabited by the Greeks and what is called as Bulgars now. Before the 18-th century Christians felt comfortable in the Empire. And definitely the Greeks have always lived along the sea shores in the region. Even today in Donetsk region Greeks compose 30% that makes more than a million. Youíre right we all are cocktails when it comes to the blood issues. Say the Greeks have much in common with Ashkenazi Jews and even the Serbs and Albanians too have close happlogroups. Balkan people seized current Turkey to be back as invaders.
    (rote, 26 January 2015 16:21)

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  8. Boom

    Reading your comment all one can do is laugh. Anti-Hellenes constantly point out that Greece did not exist as a state before the 1800s and there were no Greeks or Hellenes before this time.The fact that Greeks have had many different names over the last 3000 years, does that change who they are as people. Just because they were referred to as Romaioi or Byzantines or Ottoman Christians does not make them different people.
    You also claim that there were no Greeks around certain regions before the 1824. Yet there is recorded proof everywhere that the Greeks or Greek speaking population of the Ottoman empire existed in all the major regions including Macedonia.The Ottoman census of 1908 shows clearly Greeks were the majority of the total population of Macedonia.Furthermore, No serious historian would ever claim that modern peoples are direct descendants of ancient peoples.What really matters is continuation (e.g. culture, language, religion) which ensures the historical sense of an evolving community through time.In other words, modern Greeks have those features enabling them to look back to antiquity .
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 14:13)

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  9. Or they can improve competitivenes; i.e. stop living as parasites and expect Germany to pay their bills.
    icj1

    You made the same ignorant comment before and I did ask you to provide me with a report from the German ministry of finance showing in detail the money German taxpayers paid towards Greece.I am still waiting.Now look at the link below to see the extent of German " sacrifices".

    [link]

    Hopefully Greece finally leaves the Eurozone so the rest of the Eurozone countries don't have to pay the bills for a failed state like Greece.
    (icj1, 25 January 2015 05:38)

    Amen,but you see the Eurozone is the pet project of the 4th Reich and they would do anything in their power to keep it alive.Greece is the sideshow,it enables all the Eurozone bankrupt countries to hide behind Greece.Last weeks decision to start an initial QE worth 1.3 trillion euros (excluding Greece)shows the extent of this bankruptcy.

    I'll conclude by saying the ex communist monsters who run EU are simply trying to create an updated modern version of the USSR - that's why it is failing. Forced ideologies have NEVER worked, throughout history, and always end in tears.These evil ideologues and their equally evil, sycophantic supporters will have a lot to answer for when D day comes. Let's hope there are lots of lamp posts and piano wire around.
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 13:50)

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  10. I was talking about the idea you "borrowed" from us. Learn how to read the point.
    (the truth, 26 January 2015 05:26)

    You've got nothing to do with the ancient Dardanians.Back to your claim ,It's well known neither Dardanians nor Illyrians have left any written history so how do you know the Drachma was their " idea"?
    (Leonidas, 26 January 2015 13:23)

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  11. Or they can improve competitivenes; i.e. stop living as parasites and expect Germany to pay their bills.

    I agree... Greece in the Eurozone is a failed experiment. Hopefully Greece finally leaves the Eurozone so the rest of the Eurozone countries don't have to pay the bills for a failed state like Greece.
    (icj1, 25 January 2015 05:38)

    One way Greece will improve competitiveness is by leaving and devaluating its currency. Tourists would flock Greece and spend their euros there for one, and makes it easier to trade their way back to prosperity.

    The problem with your ideal scenario of just Greece leaving the Eurozone is that much larger economies have problems just like this. Spain, Italy, France. And in all those countries, anti-EU parties are either the majority or are the fastest growing. Same in UK, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and even Germany.

    And now all these parties are looking at Syriza's success with enthusiasm. For your viewing pleasure
    [link]
    (Ari Gold, 26 January 2015 09:36)

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  12. [link]
    (Leonidas, 25 January 2015 15:13)

    I was talking about the idea you "borrowed" from us. Learn how to read the point.
    (the truth, 26 January 2015 05:26)

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  13. Alexis Tsipras,bravo,bravo,"BRAVO"!
    (Pete K., 26 January 2015 03:49)

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  14. As much as I think Albanians and their language are true autochthones to the peninsula, idiots who claim that drachma was a creation of Dardanians are just that, brainwashed nationalists. I wont be surprised to hear one day the same idiots claim that Jesus was Albanian.
    However, modern Greece has virtually no connection with the (Hellenes) of the ancient world.
    Any serious scholar will tell you this is true. Modern Greece was founded in 1824,and the population largely consisted of transplanted Albanian, Turks and Slavs as well as Christian refugees from the old Ottoman Empire.
    The very word "Greek" is a misnomer in that it was never used as a self description by the peoples who occupied that peninsula during their era .
    Modern Greeks got their name during the mid-nineteenth century, mostly from European writers and intellectuals who wished to resurrect the glories of Ancient Athens and its Golden Age as a way to find a moral escape from the dark ages and terrors of the catholic church and inquisition.
    No amount of wishing can change the fact that in terms of culture ,history ,language and DNA,the modern Greek state has nothing to do with the old.
    (boom, 26 January 2015 01:21)

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  15. (the truth, 24 January 2015 18:54)

    I find your comment really amusing: ďthe drachma in fact was introduced in ancient times, but not by you Greeks. It was first introduced by Dardanians and you stolen the idea and give it your own nameĒ Not even Enver Hoxha or his disciple Ali Berisha. would ever make such a claim! You are not the first and certainly not the last Turko-Albanian to utter such nonsense and I am more than certain youíre unable to produce any concrete evidence in terms of either historiography or archaeology to support your pseudo-historical fantasies. You see history is discussed on the basis of evidence, be it partly flawed or not, not on what each side likes or doesnít like.The link below shows clearly that drachma was Greek and inscripted in Greek language.

    [link]
    (Leonidas, 25 January 2015 15:13)

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  16. Good luck to Syriza !
    (Joachim, 25 January 2015 11:52)

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  17. What was the currency the Greeks kept their savings prior to 2001? It was the Drachma which in fact was firstly introduced in ancient times
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 22:09)

    Sure, but it's not the history that make a currency worse or better :)
    ----------

    Now many people still do not understand that the euro is not just a medium of exchange but also a measure of competitiveness.Countries which are not as competitive as Germany (for example) will suffer both trade and budget deficits and since they cannot devalue their currency they will have to suffer austerity (internal devaluation).
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 22:09)

    Or they can improve competitivenes; i.e. stop living as parasites and expect Germany to pay their bills.
    ----------

    This is a long, protracted, miserable coda on a failed experiment.
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 22:09)

    I agree... Greece in the Eurozone is a failed experiment. Hopefully Greece finally leaves the Eurozone so the rest of the Eurozone countries don't have to pay the bills for a failed state like Greece.
    (icj1, 25 January 2015 05:38)

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  18. I think leonidas has a good grasp of greek politics.
    However lets not forget that Greece profited tremendously from joining EU and that is how it became richer than her neighbors.
    There are two main issues in my opinion, one is that the Greek politicians are absolutely the most corrupt in the EU if not the balkans and second that greek people do not pay taxes. People in the balkans have difficulty paying taxes (I guess the tradition remained from ottoman times when not paying taxes was seen as a form of resistance) and greeks just like albanians, macedonians, kosovars and to some degree serbs do not pay taxes, that is why the institutions and governments are week in the balkans.
    Serbia would have been the most successful candidate for joining the EU as we generally have a better work ethic and mentality towards work and institutions but to our great despair we went into a rampage with lunatic nationalistic wars instead. We set back our country by one generation.
    EU does indeed have a democratic deficit, but it is the best thing we could aspire to right now. If not, who do we turn too? Russia?
    I think people calling for the EU break up are just like this Tsipiras, they have no plan for after the elections. Interesting times ahead.
    (boom, 25 January 2015 03:19)

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  19. hahaha is he for real, good luck hahahahaha
    (eric, 24 January 2015 19:25)

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  20. (Mirel from ALbania

    What was the currency the Greeks kept their savings prior to 2001? It was the Drachma which in fact was firstly introduced in ancient times
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 22:09)

    Yes the drachma in fact it was introduced in ancient times, but not by you Greeks. It was first introduced by Dardanians and you stolen the idea and give it your own name. Learn your history first.
    (the truth, 24 January 2015 18:54)

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  21. If he does that it means bye-bye EU and its benefits of being a member.
    (Mirel from ALbania, 23 January 2015 17:58)

    At this point, the benefits of being a member seem far outweighed by regaining economic decision-making. The euro is not the be-all solution.


    Personally, I hope Syriza wins just because I want to end the circle of the family parties(Papandreu [sic], Micotaqis [sic], Karamanlis [sic] etc) in Greece.
    (Mirel from ALbania, 23 January 2015 17:58)

    At the absolute least yes. But he'll just be corralled like the rest as long as Greece remains tethered to the ECB.
    (Balkan Anthropologist, 24 January 2015 03:36)

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  22. Secondly, if drachma will be introduced who is going to keep the savings in drachma? None.
    The introduction of drachma will be catastrophe for Greece

    (Mirel from ALbania

    What was the currency the Greeks kept their savings prior to 2001? It was the Drachma which in fact was firstly introduced in ancient times.Now many people still do not understand that the euro is not just a medium of exchange but also a measure of competitiveness.Countries which are not as competitive as Germany (for example) will suffer both trade and budget deficits and since they cannot devalue their currency they will have to suffer austerity (internal devaluation).There is no way around it unless,of course, the more successful members are prepared to write blank, unconditional cheques to the end of time for the struggling members.Another pre-requisite to the above is a central economic and financial management of the member countries.Neither is even remotely possible so the Eurozone must fail.
    This is a long, protracted, miserable coda on a failed experiment.
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 22:09)

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  23. In case you don't remember, Greece was about on the level of YU before it joined EU.
    (Comm. Parrisson, 23 January 2015 19:02)

    That's good news then considering where it is now.
    (Balkan Anthropologist, 23 January 2015 22:04)

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  24. Ari

    To answer your question fully one has to go back to the end of the civil war, the expulsion of the communists from Greece and the creation of the political parties and such an attempt will take few postings to complete. In short modern Greek political parties are the political vehicles of the so-called "charismatic" leaders or political clans.For example,the Papandreou and Karamanlis clans have dominated the Greek political scene since the end of World War II and it was the EU imposed austerity which forced them to withdraw from politics albeit temporarily.
    The Syriza party is one of the first of many party realignments arising from the period of austerity memorandums and hails from the Left wing of Synaspismos party which split in 2009 as a result of the EU memorandum.Tsipras rejected austerity created Syriza whereas Kouvelis led a breakaway to the Right and created Dimar which joined the governing coalition.The absence of a genuine centre party can be found in the absence of a genuine middle class.
    Now,Greek politicians,will do almost anything to get re-elected. The easiest way to do this is to pay people off, particularly government workers and constituents, in the form of generous benefits or pet projects. What happens if your tax base will not support this? You sell your political soul, defer, and/or hide the true costs of your largesse behind undisclosed derivative deals with Goldman Sachs that eventually put your entire countryís sovereignty in jeopardy.
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 20:28)

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  25. "Even if it doesn't start the chain reaction of other countries withdrawing as some fear, it's the only way Greece can reclaim the sovereignty and democracy its leaders keep promising they would safeguard in the event of an election victory."
    (Balkan Anthropologist, 23 January 2015 16:54)

    You forgot 'poverty' that will come back to Greece. In case you don't remember, Greece was about on the level of YU before it joined EU.
    (Comm. Parrisson, 23 January 2015 19:02)

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  26. ...Personally, I hope Greece does that an returns to the drachma. .. (Balkan Anthropologist, 23 January 2015 16:54)...

    If he does that it means bye-bye EU and its benefits of being a member.
    Secondly, if drachma will be introduced who is going to keep the savings in drachma? None.
    The introduction of drachma will be catastrophe for Greece, taking into account that all the West will be hostile toward Greece and possibly introduce sanctions.

    What he can do though, is to make some cosmetic changes in paying back the loans and probably change the tax structure by taxing the rich and some tax relief for the poor and should be enough to say that he did something.

    Personally, I hope Syriza wins just because I want to end the circle of the family parties(Papandreu, Micotaqis, Karamanlis etc) in Greece.
    (Mirel from ALbania, 23 January 2015 17:58)

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  27. "On Monday, national humiliation will be over. We will finish with orders from abroad. We are asking for a first chance for Syriza. It might be the last chance for Greece," Tsipras told the rally.

    Unless he's planning on pulling Greece out of the Eurozone, or at the absolute least threatening to stop all payments back to the ECB, this is little more than a pre-election soundbyte. Personally, I hope Greece does that an returns to the drachma. Even if it doesn't start the chain reaction of other countries withdrawing as some fear, it's the only way Greece can reclaim the sovereignty and democracy its leaders keep promising they would safeguard in the event of an election victory.
    (Balkan Anthropologist, 23 January 2015 16:54)

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  28. Sadly, I don't think Syriza is the party to take Greece out of crisis. However I do like that their presence will upset EU plans which is a project failing all over Europe right now.

    I am curious to know why Greece doesn't have a viable center-right party that is anti-EU austerity. I know of the "Independent Greeks" but they aren't polling well in the polls. Idk too much about Greek politics so maybe Leonidis can explain why a party with a sensible platform such as theirs is less appealing than the far left socialist party of Syriza?
    (Ari Gold, 23 January 2015 16:03)

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  29. "On Monday, national humiliation will be over. We will finish with orders from abroad. We are asking for a first chance for Syriza. It might be the last chance for Greece," Tsipras told the rally.

    The first chance? With old ideas like bloating the already bloated public sector some more? No, that won't work. With the same recipes the governments in the last decade manoevered Greece into the mess it is in today.



    "Tsipras has stressed that austerity was not part of European charters, while "democracy and the principle of sovereignty of nations are," but that his government would respect Greece's obligations as a member of the eurozone."

    Let's see if Greece keeps its obligations and commitments given when receiving the loans.
    (Comm. Parrisson, 23 January 2015 14:18)

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  30. Tsipras has stressed that austerity was not part of European charters, while "democracy and the principle of sovereignty of nations are.

    I just wonder where he's been all those years and still identifies the EU with democracy.Has he forgotten the cancelled French & Dutch referenda on the Lisbon treaty or the fact that Ireland was forced to hold the vote twice? Has he forgotten that both Berlusconi and Papandreou ( Italian and Greek prime ministers) were replaced by the EU? The EU has absolutely no regard for citizens or their rights under what should be a democratic process. Countries are seduced into joining the EU on the basis that their living standards will be raised to that of the richer and more powerful members.That is obviously never going to be the case and the Germans for one would have realised that right from the beginning.What is Germany's game plan in all of this?.Not too different from the old USSR where citizens had no rights and were ruled by one party.

    Whatever Tsipras says or does will not bring the Eurozone down.What will bring the Eurozone down is lack of a domestic demand, declining internal trade and chronic unemployment and therefore little or no growth at all.The simple truth is the EU is still imprisoned by the debt legacy of 2008.It has just been passed around and circulated in the block's blood stream until a fatal embolism strikes at the heart of its economy (Germany).Next time round there won't be any bailouts.
    (Leonidas, 23 January 2015 13:42)

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  31. Tsipras has the right intentions but the reality is that the Greeks have little choice but to pay back the money they borrowed.
    If they refuse then the outlook for Greece is dim.
    The issue with Tsipras is that he has the right intentions but he is not offering alternative solutions. He talks the talk but can he walk the walk?
    We'll know after Monday.
    (T, 23 January 2015 13:40)

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