Presidential candidates take part in TV debate

As usual Nikolic had nothing constructive to say. His focus was mainly on slinging mud at Tadic which he couldn't make stick. He talks of changes but doesn't say how, what and when. Joining forces with Kostunica, the radical right winger, only goes to prove that he is willing to make pacts with whoever in order to get his presidential seat. Nikolic has been known to flip-flop on many issues, therefore he can't be trusted to stick to his guns and keep his word.
Tadic came across more composed than his rival and had answers for everything. He has a balanced perspective of the real world while admitting that things are not perfect. However, unlike Nikolic, he can outline a course of action that Serbia needs to take for things to get better and to secure stability. Despite Nikolic's remarks Tadic has already earned the respect of other nations, including Russia and China.
There are no perfect politicians only good ones, better ones and really bad ones. Nikolic, in my opinion belongs to the latter category.

So you feel powerless? Welcome to Serbia, where ordinary people have felt powerless for years. 'Spining' a t shirt. God mate, get a grip and stop feeing so sorry for yourself.
(bganon, 17 May 2012 13:57)
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LOL! Why would I feel sorry for myself? I am not suffering and have quite a good life in Serbia. In fact, I feel sorry for the people here. Those that work and don't get paid. Those that can't get a job. Those that have their votes stolen and all of the companies folding due mainly to corrupt politicians.

I have no liking for either Tadic or Nikolic but I am happy to know that my vote will cancel out yours and that my vote won't be stolen. You know who I support and we both know there was no chance the DSS would get into government this time around. However, I am happy to know that Serbia was doing well economically during Kostunica's rule but started going downhill once he left.

You are only bitter to have been exposed as supporting election fraud and parties involved in it. I only wanted a free and fair election but you are right, that is too much to ask. Not only did we get fraud but also involvement of third countries and organisations (the occupiers).

So life goes on for me and I am happy. I just feel sorry for the average Serbian citizen. This country is heading down the same path as Greece and it seems you have no problem with that.

I haven't been paying attention and I'd also like to know which countries are under occupation.
(Danilo, 17 May 2012 18:36)
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Why ask me? I'm talking about Serbia. If you are interested in other countries then find your contacts and ask yourself.

He discovered that most people didn't believe him and that there were no votes in it so he dropped it.
(bganon, 17 May 2012 21:35)
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Seems you missed the videos showing election fraud regardless of what Nikolic has to say. He is not the opposition. He is a fraud also. The only reason I'm voting is to counter your vote. It's the only honourable thing to do.

All I can say about Kostunica is he has evolved with the current situation. How can a no alternative to the EU prosper when the EU is sinking? China has risen. The BRICS have risen and Kostunica wants to align with them but no, we have no alternative but the EU. Like I said, our third class ticket on the Titanic is booked. Enjoy your trip.

Who ever said Serbs know what is good for them, especially under occupation?

Or if you insist on avoiding talking about other countries then you could enlighten me as to when the 'occupation' began in Serbia?
(bganon, 18 May 2012 03:13)
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I answered the question, you just added spin (as usual). I don't know people involved in politics in other countries so how would I know? If you are so interested, go and find out yourself.

As for when it started, I'm not sure either. I know it is currently under occupation and that's all that matters. Asking silly questions doesn't disprove a claim.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.
(Yet Another J S, 17 May 2012 11:56)

Yet Another Conspracy Theory

Who needs a lesson in Serbian grammar? A clear message about the Serbian elections. Check -> http://i48.tinypic.com/116ow1t.jpg

This is what people are wearing in Serbia. Yes, we know it occurred but feel powerless in occupied Serbia. Don't be deceived by our local Otporist, who will attempt to spin this.

Russian politicians and mass media are pessimistic about the outcome of the Serbian Presidential cause they predict another victory of Tadic. They also say that de facto Serbs have already refused from Kosovo lands. They say young Serbs prefer to be incorporated to EU than to insist on KM. The context is that though we have part of the responsibility for what has happened to Serbia we can do little. Just because the Serbs themselves are not ready for the long fight. So if you chose Otpor guys again Russia will take it with minimal disappointment. The first two elections were a real shock for us. But if it happens the third time we”ll take it as a matter of fact. We love you in any case and hope that you do know what you are doing.

He (Nikolic) pointed out that he advocated the policy of two doors - one leading to the East and other to the West. The only door that would help Serbia where Nikolic is concerned is the one that has an exit sign over it. The clown prince, fabricator, of Serbian politics is an embarrassment to the Serbian nation and its people. This semi-literate, friction causing loud mouth, that only finger points and accuses the ruling coalition government, yet has no ideas or plans or solutions of his own, would be a disaster for the country. He is a traitor, manipulator, turncoat, and will do or say anything just for votes. It is a farce that he cares so much for the Serbian people, he cares for his own cushy seat in government. If the Serbian people do elect him, then they deserve what they ask for. Yes, there would be change with Nikolic at the helm, but that change would be for the worse.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.
(Yet Another J S, 17 May 2012 11:56)

Oh please not this again. If you watched the debate last night you will see why Tadic will will again on 20 May.

Then again its easy shout rubbish from the comfort of your home in Toronto.

No shame whatsoever for our infamous Otporists, these hard core sell outs where never in majority and never will. Winning by any means necessary, election fraud, ballot rigging and shouting FOUL even before any counting of votes.

The only ones avoiding question here is them, desperately trying to divert attention from facts.

Was that a reference to me Zoran? Boo hoo, you're calling me names now!
Still, I'm sure that a t shirt printing machine and a picture of one man wearing a t shirt is plenty of evidence of national sentiment and would stand up well in Strasbourg as evidence of voting fraud. Very impressive.

So you feel powerless? Welcome to Serbia, where ordinary people have felt powerless for years. 'Spining' a t shirt. God mate, get a grip and stop feeing so sorry for yourself.

I too am not too enthusiastic about another DS led government, with Tadic at the helm for a third time but, please folks, Nikolic is not the answer. In fact, he has no answers. He said absolutely nothing last night during the debate. If the rules last night would have been, you cannot criticise or name call your opponent, Nikolic would have been a total mute. He offered no solutions, but merely pointed out how bad things are in Serbia. Toma, we know that, but what are the answers to fixing those things, a "quick response office", whatever the hell that means? All I can say is, Serbia is a better place today than it was 10 years ago, and I strongly believe it will be an even better place in 10 years from now.

I missed the Tadić-Nikolić debate on TV, so I've had to rely on reports of it.

Seems that Nikolić had nothing to offer. So he continues on the same course of action as during his years in the Radical Party: no thought-out programs, just simple street talk and slander. Naturally he is favoured by the people to whom that's enough. Luckily they are fewer day by day in Serbia.

What really made my lough out was Nikolić asking why only the SNS had the agreement on cooperation with the ruling United Russia if it was true that Tadić had good cooperation with the country.

His simplicity is truly comical. Even if United Russia still is the most powerful party in Russia it's not the whole of Russia. Even if United Russia is the most powerful party it's not equivalent to the institution that represents Russia. It's a party, or let's say it straight, it's a fake party, and it's days are already numbered. It's anything but not wise for Serbia to tie itself to United Russia.

The comment that "rote" wrote - about the Serbian election results taken as a shock in Russia - is only only proves what that Russian media that is dictated by the United Russia and Putin writes.

The interest of Putin's and the United Russia's Russia is to have a simpleton - Nikolić - running Serbia. Someone they can handle as a puppet.

And Zoran... Why do you take politics as a religion? Why do you claim things like a believer without proof? Kostunica had all... well, a lot of cards in his hands but he proved to be an impotent leader without active progressive direction. I remember reading his interview in Monitor magazine sometime early or mid 1990's and I thought yes, here's an opponent to Milosevic. But soon after he got the main man's position and once his honey moon with Serbs was over he failed and turned to regressive politics.

Zoran, of course you can go on claiming that Serbia is under occupation. But the same way I can think that your mind is occupied by fictional logic, not a Nikolić type but another.

Team Otpor are "worried", it seems. Well, you should since you have revealed your self a simple defender of election fraud. No spinning tactics and damage control can change that.

You are a joke.

The reason that a few People thought that all they could do was to repeat the truths I wrote, means that they just cannot disprove the facts that the Opinion Polls and the Official Election Results need a lot of explaining.

No Danilo he hasn't, so I'll ask him again as he keeps making the claim.
Which countries Zoran according to you, are like Serbia, occupied and by whom? And since when has Serbia been occupied?

I'm glad Zoran that you thought that Kostunica's government was a good one. Its good to think that you were so happy with the performance of Dinkic and his G17 western funded pressure group, come political party did so well through their control of most of the economic portfolios and insistence to dictate policy. Realistically speaking the post 2000 governments were always going to prosper, both because of the post Milosevic boom in investment and the favourable world economic situation.

Zoran come on, you have been whining, like an abused dog in the past few days, name calling and as the Americans would say - calling me out, even in threads where I haven't made a comment. And you have been complaining about election theft without any evidence and you can't even see its due to your disappointment with Serbs for not supporting your politics. Instead, you are having a pop at me.

I'll finish with this - a previous comment of mine vanished into thin air, but I will make the point now. Nikolic didn't mention the supposed election fraud during the Presidential debate. Why do you think that is Zoran?

In my view there can only be two reasons 1. He discovered there was no election fraud and wanted to drop the subject 2. He discovered that most people didn't believe him and that there were no votes in it so he dropped it.

bganon,

Yes, I have learnt what "Who cares if its true or not, its true to me!" means. I call this phenomenon "personal truth". No matter how illogical the personal truth is - even in its own realm (including claims that invalidate each others) - one rather continues to believe in it than to abandon it.

Why? Because it's easier to go on this way than admit yourself that you've been made a fool, tricked and betrayed. It would make you to feel worthless. So it's better to go on and on and on... and occasionally feel the power of not having to care about reality -and its complexities.

I would like to remind us what I wrote concerning the Proper Debating and Discussing Principles.

I hope that we can agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable, and I hope that we can start again with this Attitude, and I think that People should not Vote for Boris Tadic at this Election.

Another thing is that I look at the Message rather than the Messenger, and I think that it is the Policy that a Person is putting forward is what should be criticized, or argued against, or debated, and not the Person that should be criticized.

A certain future possibility has become made known to me, and we all know that the even the Opinion Polls we so different to the Parliamentary Results, and if the Parliamentary Elections were not stolen, then perhaps America and the European Union and Tadic and Company asked the Invisible Devil to send the Invisible Demons to the Polling Booths it was the Invisible Demons who influenced the Voting.

Perhaps it was that Just before the People would Vote, the Invisible Demons will make the Voters hear a Voice in their heads that only they can hear, and that is for them to vote for the DS, the SPS, the LDP, and the URS.

If the Election results are true, then it is comforting to know that a Big Percentage, even though a Minority of Voters rejected the Temptations of the Invisible Demons and said Go Away Satan.

I would like to know your Opinion on One Conspiracy Theory that I believe is likely, and it says that America, the European Union, and Tadic and Company have a considerable advantage because they will ask the Invisible Devil to send the Invisible Demons at the Polling Booths, and just before the People Vote, the Invisible Demons will make them hear a Voice in their heads that only they can hear, and that is for them to vote for Tadic as the next President of Serbia.

Has Zoran answered your question, bganon, about which countries are occupied?

I haven't been paying attention and I'd also like to know which countries are under occupation.

Your answer to Danilo was spoken like a true Serbian politician Zoran. Now that I know that you have read my questions to you, perhaps you could be decent enough to answer them? As I've said before this acting dumb routine doesn't become you. Its much more honest / simpler to admit you have a higher standard for Serbia than for other countries. Yes, its inconsistent, and somewhat undermines your claims of 'occupation', but at least its not dishonest or evasive.

Or if you insist on avoiding talking about other countries then you could enlighten me as to when the 'occupation' began in Serbia?

Olli (Zoran) what worries me about Zoran and those that think like him is not the difference in viewpoint. Its completely normal to have different viewpoints and to debate them. What I can't understand is maintaining a viewpoint without any desire to flesh it out - that the emotion, or pure belief is more important than the reality. "Who cares if its true or not, its true to me!".

So Zoran claims Serbia is under 'occupation'. He won't say what form this 'occupation' takes, when it begun, or whether this 'occupation' goes on in other countries. He will stick to this viewpoint without reflection. Is this an example of blind stupidity, or an implicit admission that he doesn't have a case and therefore can't prove it?

He claims that Serbia is worse than ever now, but then claims not to know how it was in the past. He claims not to know about other countries. I suppose this isn't the same Zoran who hails from Australia lived in the UK and has traveled to other countries? As one example to offer up he says that Kostunica's government was a good one, when economics was controlled by G17 - a party, surely part of Zoran's 'occupation'? This government that he says was good was in a period when Serbia was surely under 'occupation'?

So there is no sense of historical perspective, no reference to the larger picture in other countries, no sense or desire to debate the facts, in fact there is no sense at all.

For the record Olli - I wrote this in a post that vanished, Nikolic probably did a good job in mobilising his supporters in the debate. From the viewpoint of the 'common' Serb, Nikolic won on points. Tadic looked Presidential and had more substance but was talking about too many issues - his record and future plans.

bganon,

I see what you mean about this wtf/canvas troll

Dear sock puppet / multiple voter, feel free to produce evidence of this election fraud.

As for being worried, the only thing I'm worried about is that we will have a lifetime of DS in power - mostly due to the ineffectiveness of the Serbian opposition. I really do hope that there will be a new citizens party sometime in the near future.

NB I wouldn't be that bothered if Nikolic was President, it would be a little on the embarrassing side to see him trying to deal with foreign leaders and officials, so yes I can see how some would think it was a joke.

"So Zoran claims Serbia is under 'occupation'. He won't say what form this 'occupation' takes, when it begun, or whether this 'occupation' goes on in other countries. He will stick to this viewpoint without reflection. Is this an example of blind stupidity, or an implicit admission that he doesn't have a case and therefore can't prove it?"

No, it's a common behavior for people believing in conspiracy theories and prefer to see the world like they want to, ignoring facts and reality.

Well spotted, thats just the tip of the iceberg Danilo, he has got many names including wtf / canvas / minas / mickey mouse / go east / whizzo, and it doesn't take a genuis to notice the way he seems to be in love with Nebojsa Malic either.

But yes, this troll is active on the site today as evidence by his anti gay comments on Belgrade / Djilas thread at around the same time as his comments here. And he appears to believe that just because he invents different characters that I must stoop as low as he does.

I think the election results have upset him though. Poor dear, I really feel for him :)

It is fairly obvious that the arguments here have descended to attacking the person rather than the argument. We can continue in another thread.

By the way, I am not shy to catch up with anyone here in Belgrade and have proper discussions. Even with different opinions, we can still discuss issues without attacking each other. When it gets to that level, it means you have lost the argument.

My email address has been posted here many times. Feel free to contact me.

Zoran,

We'll meet and talk in Belgrade and I believe it will be interesting. And I'll learn a thing or two.

Here I wish that you pay attention to this:

You wrote: "It is fairly obvious that the arguments here have descended to attacking the person rather than the argument."

I can see that you've taken liberties to label another commentator as a "local Otporist". Is this what you describe attacking the argument?

Correction: You are tragic really.

Debating with yourself trough "Danilo"? Ha! You show utter contempt on people´s intelligence and yes, that's very Otpor of you.

Thats true Zoran and I'll take your last message as an admission that you were the one to bring the level down in the first place by 'calling me out' in the past few days here and on other threads at B92. You may be pissed off at the election results, but that is really not my fault.

You should think what you write and the consequences if you don't like the results because it all degenerated from there. It can't be helped that the troll turned up, but trolls invariably enjoy petty minded conflict. And no he didn't even make an argument and yes I was trying my best to focus on the debate, even though you didn't want to answer my questions!

Olli I think that what you call personal truth in small doses can be beneficial to a person in terms say of career advancement - politicians particularly, but most professions - to be single minded and to ignore the odds can occasionally bring great rewards. But not so great if this personal truth is a part of one's personal life, that can be difficult for all concerned.

have you known that the unemployment rate in Novi Pazar is nearly 60 per cent? In Sandzak too.

There is no end to Tadics demagogy. I still remember him promising that Serbia will be in EU before 2013. So much broken promises.. And now even election theft...

Zoran,

I see people attacking not you, but your fantasy-constructs. I guess that can be hard to disentangle, depending both on how strongly you identify with your fantasy-constructs and how ridiculous they might be.

Our most infamous Otpor-brat here is quite cute isn´t she? Discussing meaningless issues at times but then suddenly, spewing sulphur, narcissistic and raving mad when it comes to the quisling parasite regime and their dirty tricks and foreign backing to stay in power at any cost.

The "opposition", bought and payed for, fell in line almost instantly, which was to be expected, but not Dveri and most importantly, not the average Serb.The minority of Otporian fanatics calling the shots might not notice it at first but the ground is starting to shake under their feet's, significantly.

Why does b92 reject most of my comments but let this angry Australian teenager post away nonsensically?

I couldn't help laugh at the Nebojsa Malic shout-out either.

He's my favourite Serbian comedian.

Why does b92 reject most of my comments but let this angry Australian teenager post away nonsensically?
(Danilo, 18 May 2012 17:02)

Well, you have already publicly stated you hate Serbs, so I guess the benefit of the doubt with your borderline posts regarding Serbs dissapears. Did you think of that one maybee or is it too logical to understand.

Zoran,

I see people attacking not you, but your fantasy-constructs. I guess that can be hard to disentangle, depending both on how strongly you identify with your fantasy-constructs and how ridiculous they might be.
(Danilo, 18 May 2012 23:29)

What of your Macedonia fallacy? Trolls don't identify with their fantasy constructs so strongly, thats why "they" get over them quickly, "they" don't even mention them when they are wrong. And you brother?

Zoran, of course you can go on claiming that Serbia is under occupation. But the same way I can think that your mind is occupied by fictional logic, not a Nikolić type but another.
(Olli, 18 May 2012 13:12)

Well Olli,

When a gov't is incapacitated to set monetry policy, theoretically it is under occupation. When a gov't sells it's control of central bank to write of international debt it sells it sovreignty and with it comes the demands to sell other national industries ie. oil refineries. Occupation need not be in physical form and my guess is it is always a nationalist who can see this first.

Your answer to Danilo was spoken like a true Serbian politician Zoran. Now that I know that you have read my questions to you, perhaps you could be decent enough to answer them? As I've said before this acting dumb routine doesn't become you. Its much more honest / simpler to admit you have a higher standard for Serbia than for other countries. Yes, its inconsistent, and somewhat undermines your claims of 'occupation', but at least its not dishonest or evasive.

Or if you insist on avoiding talking about other countries then you could enlighten me as to when the 'occupation' began in Serbia?

As usual Nikolic had nothing constructive to say. His focus was mainly on slinging mud at Tadic which he couldn't make stick. He talks of changes but doesn't say how, what and when. Joining forces with Kostunica, the radical right winger, only goes to prove that he is willing to make pacts with whoever in order to get his presidential seat. Nikolic has been known to flip-flop on many issues, therefore he can't be trusted to stick to his guns and keep his word.
Tadic came across more composed than his rival and had answers for everything. He has a balanced perspective of the real world while admitting that things are not perfect. However, unlike Nikolic, he can outline a course of action that Serbia needs to take for things to get better and to secure stability. Despite Nikolic's remarks Tadic has already earned the respect of other nations, including Russia and China.
There are no perfect politicians only good ones, better ones and really bad ones. Nikolic, in my opinion belongs to the latter category.

Olli (Zoran) what worries me about Zoran and those that think like him is not the difference in viewpoint. Its completely normal to have different viewpoints and to debate them. What I can't understand is maintaining a viewpoint without any desire to flesh it out - that the emotion, or pure belief is more important than the reality. "Who cares if its true or not, its true to me!".

So Zoran claims Serbia is under 'occupation'. He won't say what form this 'occupation' takes, when it begun, or whether this 'occupation' goes on in other countries. He will stick to this viewpoint without reflection. Is this an example of blind stupidity, or an implicit admission that he doesn't have a case and therefore can't prove it?

He claims that Serbia is worse than ever now, but then claims not to know how it was in the past. He claims not to know about other countries. I suppose this isn't the same Zoran who hails from Australia lived in the UK and has traveled to other countries? As one example to offer up he says that Kostunica's government was a good one, when economics was controlled by G17 - a party, surely part of Zoran's 'occupation'? This government that he says was good was in a period when Serbia was surely under 'occupation'?

So there is no sense of historical perspective, no reference to the larger picture in other countries, no sense or desire to debate the facts, in fact there is no sense at all.

For the record Olli - I wrote this in a post that vanished, Nikolic probably did a good job in mobilising his supporters in the debate. From the viewpoint of the 'common' Serb, Nikolic won on points. Tadic looked Presidential and had more substance but was talking about too many issues - his record and future plans.

He (Nikolic) pointed out that he advocated the policy of two doors - one leading to the East and other to the West. The only door that would help Serbia where Nikolic is concerned is the one that has an exit sign over it. The clown prince, fabricator, of Serbian politics is an embarrassment to the Serbian nation and its people. This semi-literate, friction causing loud mouth, that only finger points and accuses the ruling coalition government, yet has no ideas or plans or solutions of his own, would be a disaster for the country. He is a traitor, manipulator, turncoat, and will do or say anything just for votes. It is a farce that he cares so much for the Serbian people, he cares for his own cushy seat in government. If the Serbian people do elect him, then they deserve what they ask for. Yes, there would be change with Nikolic at the helm, but that change would be for the worse.

Has Zoran answered your question, bganon, about which countries are occupied?

I haven't been paying attention and I'd also like to know which countries are under occupation.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.
(Yet Another J S, 17 May 2012 11:56)

Yet Another Conspracy Theory

No Danilo he hasn't, so I'll ask him again as he keeps making the claim.
Which countries Zoran according to you, are like Serbia, occupied and by whom? And since when has Serbia been occupied?

I'm glad Zoran that you thought that Kostunica's government was a good one. Its good to think that you were so happy with the performance of Dinkic and his G17 western funded pressure group, come political party did so well through their control of most of the economic portfolios and insistence to dictate policy. Realistically speaking the post 2000 governments were always going to prosper, both because of the post Milosevic boom in investment and the favourable world economic situation.

Zoran come on, you have been whining, like an abused dog in the past few days, name calling and as the Americans would say - calling me out, even in threads where I haven't made a comment. And you have been complaining about election theft without any evidence and you can't even see its due to your disappointment with Serbs for not supporting your politics. Instead, you are having a pop at me.

I'll finish with this - a previous comment of mine vanished into thin air, but I will make the point now. Nikolic didn't mention the supposed election fraud during the Presidential debate. Why do you think that is Zoran?

In my view there can only be two reasons 1. He discovered there was no election fraud and wanted to drop the subject 2. He discovered that most people didn't believe him and that there were no votes in it so he dropped it.

Was that a reference to me Zoran? Boo hoo, you're calling me names now!
Still, I'm sure that a t shirt printing machine and a picture of one man wearing a t shirt is plenty of evidence of national sentiment and would stand up well in Strasbourg as evidence of voting fraud. Very impressive.

So you feel powerless? Welcome to Serbia, where ordinary people have felt powerless for years. 'Spining' a t shirt. God mate, get a grip and stop feeing so sorry for yourself.

I missed the Tadić-Nikolić debate on TV, so I've had to rely on reports of it.

Seems that Nikolić had nothing to offer. So he continues on the same course of action as during his years in the Radical Party: no thought-out programs, just simple street talk and slander. Naturally he is favoured by the people to whom that's enough. Luckily they are fewer day by day in Serbia.

What really made my lough out was Nikolić asking why only the SNS had the agreement on cooperation with the ruling United Russia if it was true that Tadić had good cooperation with the country.

His simplicity is truly comical. Even if United Russia still is the most powerful party in Russia it's not the whole of Russia. Even if United Russia is the most powerful party it's not equivalent to the institution that represents Russia. It's a party, or let's say it straight, it's a fake party, and it's days are already numbered. It's anything but not wise for Serbia to tie itself to United Russia.

The comment that "rote" wrote - about the Serbian election results taken as a shock in Russia - is only only proves what that Russian media that is dictated by the United Russia and Putin writes.

The interest of Putin's and the United Russia's Russia is to have a simpleton - Nikolić - running Serbia. Someone they can handle as a puppet.

And Zoran... Why do you take politics as a religion? Why do you claim things like a believer without proof? Kostunica had all... well, a lot of cards in his hands but he proved to be an impotent leader without active progressive direction. I remember reading his interview in Monitor magazine sometime early or mid 1990's and I thought yes, here's an opponent to Milosevic. But soon after he got the main man's position and once his honey moon with Serbs was over he failed and turned to regressive politics.

Zoran, of course you can go on claiming that Serbia is under occupation. But the same way I can think that your mind is occupied by fictional logic, not a Nikolić type but another.

The Election Fraud did take Place, and there is definite proof of that, and the SNS has tried going to the Serbian Electoral Commission, and to the Police, but they are Staffed by Tadic and Dacic Goons who have usurped the positions of Public Servants.

Even the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament Slavica Dukic-Dejanovic confirmed the Parliament had had received the request by the Dveri Movement to investigate the Stolen Election, but she said that the Law had been changed and that she cannot form a Commission to investigate Election Fraud.

Tadic then recommends that the Court I Strasbourg examine the matter, because he knows that just like the ICTY Kangaroo Court, they will never find against Tadic and Dacic even though they are guilty, because they are their Puppets.
(Yet Another J S, 17 May 2012 11:56)

Oh please not this again. If you watched the debate last night you will see why Tadic will will again on 20 May.

Then again its easy shout rubbish from the comfort of your home in Toronto.

Who needs a lesson in Serbian grammar? A clear message about the Serbian elections. Check -> http://i48.tinypic.com/116ow1t.jpg

This is what people are wearing in Serbia. Yes, we know it occurred but feel powerless in occupied Serbia. Don't be deceived by our local Otporist, who will attempt to spin this.

Russian politicians and mass media are pessimistic about the outcome of the Serbian Presidential cause they predict another victory of Tadic. They also say that de facto Serbs have already refused from Kosovo lands. They say young Serbs prefer to be incorporated to EU than to insist on KM. The context is that though we have part of the responsibility for what has happened to Serbia we can do little. Just because the Serbs themselves are not ready for the long fight. So if you chose Otpor guys again Russia will take it with minimal disappointment. The first two elections were a real shock for us. But if it happens the third time we”ll take it as a matter of fact. We love you in any case and hope that you do know what you are doing.

I would like to remind us what I wrote concerning the Proper Debating and Discussing Principles.

I hope that we can agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable, and I hope that we can start again with this Attitude, and I think that People should not Vote for Boris Tadic at this Election.

Another thing is that I look at the Message rather than the Messenger, and I think that it is the Policy that a Person is putting forward is what should be criticized, or argued against, or debated, and not the Person that should be criticized.

A certain future possibility has become made known to me, and we all know that the even the Opinion Polls we so different to the Parliamentary Results, and if the Parliamentary Elections were not stolen, then perhaps America and the European Union and Tadic and Company asked the Invisible Devil to send the Invisible Demons to the Polling Booths it was the Invisible Demons who influenced the Voting.

Perhaps it was that Just before the People would Vote, the Invisible Demons will make the Voters hear a Voice in their heads that only they can hear, and that is for them to vote for the DS, the SPS, the LDP, and the URS.

If the Election results are true, then it is comforting to know that a Big Percentage, even though a Minority of Voters rejected the Temptations of the Invisible Demons and said Go Away Satan.

I would like to know your Opinion on One Conspiracy Theory that I believe is likely, and it says that America, the European Union, and Tadic and Company have a considerable advantage because they will ask the Invisible Devil to send the Invisible Demons at the Polling Booths, and just before the People Vote, the Invisible Demons will make them hear a Voice in their heads that only they can hear, and that is for them to vote for Tadic as the next President of Serbia.

I too am not too enthusiastic about another DS led government, with Tadic at the helm for a third time but, please folks, Nikolic is not the answer. In fact, he has no answers. He said absolutely nothing last night during the debate. If the rules last night would have been, you cannot criticise or name call your opponent, Nikolic would have been a total mute. He offered no solutions, but merely pointed out how bad things are in Serbia. Toma, we know that, but what are the answers to fixing those things, a "quick response office", whatever the hell that means? All I can say is, Serbia is a better place today than it was 10 years ago, and I strongly believe it will be an even better place in 10 years from now.

So you feel powerless? Welcome to Serbia, where ordinary people have felt powerless for years. 'Spining' a t shirt. God mate, get a grip and stop feeing so sorry for yourself.
(bganon, 17 May 2012 13:57)
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LOL! Why would I feel sorry for myself? I am not suffering and have quite a good life in Serbia. In fact, I feel sorry for the people here. Those that work and don't get paid. Those that can't get a job. Those that have their votes stolen and all of the companies folding due mainly to corrupt politicians.

I have no liking for either Tadic or Nikolic but I am happy to know that my vote will cancel out yours and that my vote won't be stolen. You know who I support and we both know there was no chance the DSS would get into government this time around. However, I am happy to know that Serbia was doing well economically during Kostunica's rule but started going downhill once he left.

You are only bitter to have been exposed as supporting election fraud and parties involved in it. I only wanted a free and fair election but you are right, that is too much to ask. Not only did we get fraud but also involvement of third countries and organisations (the occupiers).

So life goes on for me and I am happy. I just feel sorry for the average Serbian citizen. This country is heading down the same path as Greece and it seems you have no problem with that.

Or if you insist on avoiding talking about other countries then you could enlighten me as to when the 'occupation' began in Serbia?
(bganon, 18 May 2012 03:13)
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I answered the question, you just added spin (as usual). I don't know people involved in politics in other countries so how would I know? If you are so interested, go and find out yourself.

As for when it started, I'm not sure either. I know it is currently under occupation and that's all that matters. Asking silly questions doesn't disprove a claim.

Team Otpor are "worried", it seems. Well, you should since you have revealed your self a simple defender of election fraud. No spinning tactics and damage control can change that.

You are a joke.

Correction: You are tragic really.

Debating with yourself trough "Danilo"? Ha! You show utter contempt on people´s intelligence and yes, that's very Otpor of you.

Well spotted, thats just the tip of the iceberg Danilo, he has got many names including wtf / canvas / minas / mickey mouse / go east / whizzo, and it doesn't take a genuis to notice the way he seems to be in love with Nebojsa Malic either.

But yes, this troll is active on the site today as evidence by his anti gay comments on Belgrade / Djilas thread at around the same time as his comments here. And he appears to believe that just because he invents different characters that I must stoop as low as he does.

I think the election results have upset him though. Poor dear, I really feel for him :)

Our most infamous Otpor-brat here is quite cute isn´t she? Discussing meaningless issues at times but then suddenly, spewing sulphur, narcissistic and raving mad when it comes to the quisling parasite regime and their dirty tricks and foreign backing to stay in power at any cost.

The "opposition", bought and payed for, fell in line almost instantly, which was to be expected, but not Dveri and most importantly, not the average Serb.The minority of Otporian fanatics calling the shots might not notice it at first but the ground is starting to shake under their feet's, significantly.

The reason that a few People thought that all they could do was to repeat the truths I wrote, means that they just cannot disprove the facts that the Opinion Polls and the Official Election Results need a lot of explaining.

I haven't been paying attention and I'd also like to know which countries are under occupation.
(Danilo, 17 May 2012 18:36)
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Why ask me? I'm talking about Serbia. If you are interested in other countries then find your contacts and ask yourself.

He discovered that most people didn't believe him and that there were no votes in it so he dropped it.
(bganon, 17 May 2012 21:35)
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Seems you missed the videos showing election fraud regardless of what Nikolic has to say. He is not the opposition. He is a fraud also. The only reason I'm voting is to counter your vote. It's the only honourable thing to do.

All I can say about Kostunica is he has evolved with the current situation. How can a no alternative to the EU prosper when the EU is sinking? China has risen. The BRICS have risen and Kostunica wants to align with them but no, we have no alternative but the EU. Like I said, our third class ticket on the Titanic is booked. Enjoy your trip.

Who ever said Serbs know what is good for them, especially under occupation?

No shame whatsoever for our infamous Otporists, these hard core sell outs where never in majority and never will. Winning by any means necessary, election fraud, ballot rigging and shouting FOUL even before any counting of votes.

The only ones avoiding question here is them, desperately trying to divert attention from facts.

Dear sock puppet / multiple voter, feel free to produce evidence of this election fraud.

As for being worried, the only thing I'm worried about is that we will have a lifetime of DS in power - mostly due to the ineffectiveness of the Serbian opposition. I really do hope that there will be a new citizens party sometime in the near future.

NB I wouldn't be that bothered if Nikolic was President, it would be a little on the embarrassing side to see him trying to deal with foreign leaders and officials, so yes I can see how some would think it was a joke.

"So Zoran claims Serbia is under 'occupation'. He won't say what form this 'occupation' takes, when it begun, or whether this 'occupation' goes on in other countries. He will stick to this viewpoint without reflection. Is this an example of blind stupidity, or an implicit admission that he doesn't have a case and therefore can't prove it?"

No, it's a common behavior for people believing in conspiracy theories and prefer to see the world like they want to, ignoring facts and reality.

Why does b92 reject most of my comments but let this angry Australian teenager post away nonsensically?

There is no end to Tadics demagogy. I still remember him promising that Serbia will be in EU before 2013. So much broken promises.. And now even election theft...

I couldn't help laugh at the Nebojsa Malic shout-out either.

He's my favourite Serbian comedian.

bganon,

I see what you mean about this wtf/canvas troll

bganon,

Yes, I have learnt what "Who cares if its true or not, its true to me!" means. I call this phenomenon "personal truth". No matter how illogical the personal truth is - even in its own realm (including claims that invalidate each others) - one rather continues to believe in it than to abandon it.

Why? Because it's easier to go on this way than admit yourself that you've been made a fool, tricked and betrayed. It would make you to feel worthless. So it's better to go on and on and on... and occasionally feel the power of not having to care about reality -and its complexities.

Zoran,

I see people attacking not you, but your fantasy-constructs. I guess that can be hard to disentangle, depending both on how strongly you identify with your fantasy-constructs and how ridiculous they might be.

Thats true Zoran and I'll take your last message as an admission that you were the one to bring the level down in the first place by 'calling me out' in the past few days here and on other threads at B92. You may be pissed off at the election results, but that is really not my fault.

You should think what you write and the consequences if you don't like the results because it all degenerated from there. It can't be helped that the troll turned up, but trolls invariably enjoy petty minded conflict. And no he didn't even make an argument and yes I was trying my best to focus on the debate, even though you didn't want to answer my questions!

Olli I think that what you call personal truth in small doses can be beneficial to a person in terms say of career advancement - politicians particularly, but most professions - to be single minded and to ignore the odds can occasionally bring great rewards. But not so great if this personal truth is a part of one's personal life, that can be difficult for all concerned.

It is fairly obvious that the arguments here have descended to attacking the person rather than the argument. We can continue in another thread.

By the way, I am not shy to catch up with anyone here in Belgrade and have proper discussions. Even with different opinions, we can still discuss issues without attacking each other. When it gets to that level, it means you have lost the argument.

My email address has been posted here many times. Feel free to contact me.

Zoran,

We'll meet and talk in Belgrade and I believe it will be interesting. And I'll learn a thing or two.

Here I wish that you pay attention to this:

You wrote: "It is fairly obvious that the arguments here have descended to attacking the person rather than the argument."

I can see that you've taken liberties to label another commentator as a "local Otporist". Is this what you describe attacking the argument?

have you known that the unemployment rate in Novi Pazar is nearly 60 per cent? In Sandzak too.

Why does b92 reject most of my comments but let this angry Australian teenager post away nonsensically?
(Danilo, 18 May 2012 17:02)

Well, you have already publicly stated you hate Serbs, so I guess the benefit of the doubt with your borderline posts regarding Serbs dissapears. Did you think of that one maybee or is it too logical to understand.

Zoran,

I see people attacking not you, but your fantasy-constructs. I guess that can be hard to disentangle, depending both on how strongly you identify with your fantasy-constructs and how ridiculous they might be.
(Danilo, 18 May 2012 23:29)

What of your Macedonia fallacy? Trolls don't identify with their fantasy constructs so strongly, thats why "they" get over them quickly, "they" don't even mention them when they are wrong. And you brother?

Zoran, of course you can go on claiming that Serbia is under occupation. But the same way I can think that your mind is occupied by fictional logic, not a Nikolić type but another.
(Olli, 18 May 2012 13:12)

Well Olli,

When a gov't is incapacitated to set monetry policy, theoretically it is under occupation. When a gov't sells it's control of central bank to write of international debt it sells it sovreignty and with it comes the demands to sell other national industries ie. oil refineries. Occupation need not be in physical form and my guess is it is always a nationalist who can see this first.