11 years since fall of Milošević regime

Finally after 11 years you accept that Milosevic was a dictator. How many more years do you need to realise that Kosovo is an independent state, and this all came from the latter's regime?

"More democratic government" would be more suitable then "first democratic government", after all, Milosevic won the previous elections fairly enough (despite some minor irregularities in the 1997 municipal elections, he was certainly the most popular one in the country.

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. Judging by the comments I frequently read on this forum, they more or less support Milosevic. People on here genuinely believe Serbia was a victim of NATO conspiracy. They do not hold their own country accountable for anything. So yes, administratively there has been a change, culturally, its still the same paranoid the-US-is-out-to-get-us nation

Alban,
Please do not use the comments on this page to get an idea of what Serbia, or Kosovo Albanians think.
This forum is just a small sample of both populations and is not representative of a larger collective thought. The smple isn't random for example. You only get comments from people passionate enough to comment.
Although some ideas may be an accurate representative, many others are not.

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. Judging by the comments I frequently read on this forum, they more or less support Milosevic. People on here genuinely believe Serbia was a victim of NATO conspiracy. They do not hold their own country accountable for anything. So yes, administratively there has been a change, culturally, its still the same paranoid the-US-is-out-to-get-us nation
(alban, 5 October 2011 10:16)
Your ethnocentric comments betray your ignorance about global affairs. You are so bent on an independent Albanian Kosovo that you ignore the global realities. The US, GB, France, and Germany are so bent on creating an independent Kosovo that they go out of their way to promote it globally, even if the heads of many countries couldn't care less about an independent Albanian Kosovo. Was there a NATO conspiracy? Conspiracies are hard to prove. However, what we do know is that KFOR and EULEX are acting outside their mandate in support of an independent Albanian Kosovo. They are implementing the Atassari plan even though the Serbs have not agreed to it, thereby imposing their will on Serbia. During the bombing campaign, NATO bombed civilian targets instead of focusing on Milosevic and his cronies. Therefore, they were just as guilty of killing civilians as Milosevic was. In war, one focuses on fighting soldiers, not civilians. In the Hague, only Serbs are punished. Those who deserve being punished should be punished, yet Albanians are always somehow acquitted because of a lack of evidence. Thus, they court admits the Albanians did wrong but somehow cannot find witnesses willing to testify. With all these issues, is it any wonder that Serbs feel the way they do?
As far as you believing Serbia hasn't progressed much, who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices. d

...and I'm glad Daniel comes in and proves my point totally. he apparently understands Geo-politics!!! look at this for exapmpe. i quote: "Was there a NATO conspiracy? Conspiracies are hard to prove." hard to prove but easy to believe in eh? then he incorrectly asserts that no KLA fighter has been jailed for war crimes. he really should read more.
i'm also glad he goes on to prove my point about a lack of cultural change with this hate-filled tirade: "As far as you believing Serbia hasn't progressed much, who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices."

i absolutely stand by what I said, no Milosevic, sure, attitudes to Kosova still the same as they were under Milosevic. its never Serbia, its always other people

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. (alban, 5 October 2011 10:16)

LOL!!! Now since Serbia has an "offical" "democracy" stamp it should not follow Milosevic's policies, such as protecting Serbia's sovereignty and giving in to any demands made by the West?

Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the Rambouillet Accords. No conspiracy, it was very clearly written that all of Yugoslavia at that time would be occupied by NATO and that after 3 years a referrendum would determine the status of Kosovo. Now that translates into an independent Kosovo with an occupation extending to all of Serbia and Montenegro. Now that bastard Milosevic paid the price for not signing. How dare anyone follow this policy? LOL!!!

Analyst I really wouldn't bother with wtf. He only sees what he wants to see. It is laughable really when somebody is so biased they won't even say move to SCP's position which is rational and correct to some degree.

Oh no Miloseivc was a democratic who loved his people and we currently have a dictatorship according to some! How we miss the man who brought us to the dire situation in Kosovo we see today - and lets be honest it is an absolutely terrible position. How we miss the man who was jointly responsible for more wars in the region since living memory. How we thank him for encouraging Croatian Serbs and Bosnian Serbs, only to abandon them to death, ethnic cleansing and a pityful existence today.

What a great military leader, what a great diplomat and what a great, great economist!

On the other hand no matter how bad the Milosevic period was in every way, that doesn't excuse the pityful governments since 2000. These governments had a mandate for change and the support of the majority of the people. Since then they have let the country down. They have not uprooted the system and tried to force through better values - in terms of cracking down on corruption. Instead they took the defeatist road Milosevic had taken when it became clear to everybody that the country was going down the toilet - take what you can for yourselves and your family, or in other words be corrupt because you will not be rewarded for working well. And things now seem to be getting worse rather than better. By the way the only way to stop endemic corruption is by taking a hard line on corruption upon those at the top. Once people see this is happening they will (and should be expected) to adjust their behaviour accordingly.

Of course the global economy has something to do with this general failure as well. But above all the problem has been an unwillingness to change the old system where it is not working.

I disagree with the sentiments of some of the posters that suggest that the only thing in Serbia that has changed is that Milosevic is not here. Attitudes have shifted, there is much more realism (or cynicism) in political debate these days.

However, I am very disappointed with the current government in its lack of vision and lack of ability to move forward. Governments shouldn't be cowardly, they must also set the pace and not simply respond to what they think is public opinion. In other words its about doing what is right for the country - and not being controlled by interest groups either outside or inside Serbia.

i absolutely stand by what I said, no Milosevic, sure, attitudes to Kosova still the same as they were under Milosevic. its never Serbia, its always other people
(alban, 5 October 2011 13:42)

Your whole life revolves around your incorrect world view. I guess it is comforting just like a teddybear to a child. I'm sure you sleep well with your thoughts, but educated individuals understand reality. The world isn't the way you perceive it. You need Milosevic in your life so you can invent issues about Serbs. Oh, all Serbs are bloody murderers. Oh dear, you'd better run or get a dog since you are so scared of them. You know nothing about Serbia except for your assumptions which are baseless. Unfortunately, the more ignorant comments you make, the more hatred you are creating in others. Negative comments beget negative comments. Thus, you reap what you sow.

The brainwashing history revisionism goes on...

You call an elected popular government and it´s president "regime" eh? What do you call the unelected quisling regime we are stuck with,and can´t get rid of, now, again?

Never mind....

Lazar rather than promoting a book on another site, you might want to point out exactly what you are talking about, as many people don't have hours to trawl through one link after another to find what you believe is evidence for a 49% vote for Kostunica.

My first impression is that what you call 'DOS guys' (telling me immediately you don't know the subject) are not responsible for counting votes. An organisation called RIK did that. The Republican Electoral Commission, which was a state institution.

Of course even more confusing is when Milosevic apologists accuse Kostunica of cheating him and in the next breath hail Kostunica as the only honest politician in Serbia. And many do exactly this...

Milosevic was no hero, he betrayed the Serbs in Krajina in 1995 thus allowing the croats to conduct oluja, he placed sanctions on Karadzic and Republika Srpska making their fight so much more difficult, and then with Kosovo in 1999 he withdrew the army, as if NATO would have bombed for much longer, but no, he caved in and profited personally as a result.

Having said that, look what replaced him. All we got was a supposedly "democratic" government which became a lapdog to the west, and still to this day barely listens to the Serbian people. The difference between Milosevic and Tadic is that, Milosevic pretended to be patriotic, Tadic doesnt care about the public opinion and is rather open about his will to sell Serbia off to the EU. Probably the most patriotic thing Tadic has tried to do was raise the tri prsta (three fingers) when Djokovic won the Wimbledon final, even though it appeared utterly pathetic and non-genuine.

So I guess my point here is that there is nothing to celebrate, the government remained to be utterly corrupt, and the fact that Milosevic's party is now in a coalition with their former enemies the DS, just go to show that power is worth more than principles. The Serbian people are still not listened to, just as before.

I still hope one day that we all will be able to get past our differences and form a new Yugoslavia that would be unified only economically and militarily; everything else stays the same (like no Serbo-Croatian language but Serbian language and Croatian language, etc). We need something that can tie together South Slavs against the emerging Turkey and prevent foreign intrigues in our lands (such as Trepca mines, one of the most envied after mines in Europe). With Socialist Yugoslavia, not the USA nor Russia could coerce us in siding with the Allies or the Soviets... but today? We are nothing but pushovers for those guys. We just got to get past our petty differences and think BIG, think what will be good for our peoples, the South Slavs of former Yugoslavia. Germans unifying made them powerful, and for a time, South Slavs were indeed powerful but we all threw that away with the Civil War in the 90s. Now we have to worry about Turkey, an emerging power with interests in the Balkans. Do we really want Turks to be strong again? I don't think it's in any of our interests for them to be strong and us weak.

Kostunica did win only 49% of the vote. The DOS guys did not count votes from Kosovo and Metohija... that is why their numbers got inflated.

A chapter from this book explains it very clearly, http://www.iacenter.org/folder02/hidden_toc.htm

It's a shame that we didn't seek for a diplomatic solution to Kosovo in 1998. If we did then Federal Yugoslavia might have held together and possibly see the partial reintegration of it by Macedonia rejoining Yugoslavia. The NATO bombing was essentially the final nail in Yugoslavia's coffin. As well, in our security, since Yugoslavia was the only thing that protected South Slavs from outsider intrigue such as Turks, Bulgarians and Americans.

Milosevic was no hero, he betrayed the Serbs in Krajina in 1995 thus allowing the croats to conduct oluja, he placed sanctions on Karadzic and Republika Srpska making their fight so much more difficult, and then with Kosovo in 1999 he withdrew the army, as if NATO would have bombed for much longer, but no, he caved in and profited personally as a result.

Having said that, look what replaced him. All we got was a supposedly "democratic" government which became a lapdog to the west, and still to this day barely listens to the Serbian people. The difference between Milosevic and Tadic is that, Milosevic pretended to be patriotic, Tadic doesnt care about the public opinion and is rather open about his will to sell Serbia off to the EU. Probably the most patriotic thing Tadic has tried to do was raise the tri prsta (three fingers) when Djokovic won the Wimbledon final, even though it appeared utterly pathetic and non-genuine.

So I guess my point here is that there is nothing to celebrate, the government remained to be utterly corrupt, and the fact that Milosevic's party is now in a coalition with their former enemies the DS, just go to show that power is worth more than principles. The Serbian people are still not listened to, just as before.
(SCP UK, 5 October 2011 13:32)

Then vote them out! What, 'cause every single democratically-elected government in history ihas been fantastic and blemish-free, without disadvantaging anyone? I'd rather have a government do something which THEY want to do, knowing that they could be voted out within a couple of years, then have a bunch of bureaucrats with no vision who play to popular support and simply form their policy around that, simply in an effort to keep their reputation a positive one amongst voters.

If Serbs don't like Tadic, just vote him out! Much more fruitful, civilised and democratic than running around like hooligans trying to disrupt a couple of homosexuals.

Bganon, you clearly are clueless. At the election time the DOS coalition was releasing "their" results every few hours. Their numbers were jumping all over the place. It truly was quite miserable disinformation. But, what else do you expect from an undemocratic movement? I say undemocratic because they were funded by the West. In the US they do not allow foreigners to fund political parties. Hence, under that basic principle of democracy, DOS was not democratic.

As you seem quite oblivious to what I was talking about, here is another link: http://www.iacenter.org/balkans/serbia101810//
I hope that this helps you wake up from your fantasies.

"You call an elected popular government and it´s president "regime" eh? What do you call the unelected quisling regime we are stuck with,and can´t get rid of, now, again? "
(wtf, 5 October 2011 12:55)

As you can read, at least between the lines, the election in 2000 has been manipulated (or the results, whatever) and Milosevic didn't want to accept a victory of another candidate. Who is 'unelected' currently? If there are still people who have doubts about that the current government was elected in a free and democratic way, I cannot help. And please spare me the conspiracy theory about the 'evil west' influenced the elections. Of course western/EU countries support candidates of democratic parties that share European values more than some extremist or nationalist parties - that's only normal.

Funny that, the DOSssies burning the voting papers. How convenient. Did the serb military fire on serb civilians? Did Koštunica sign a 99 year lease with the americans for Camp Bondsteel? Did Tadic and co get in to power with a small majority after significant lobbying and visits by many major western european politicans promising the world but still delivering very little apart from EU pocket change? Indeed, many conveniently forget the fine details when they don't coincide with the official propaganda. 2011, Serbia still being shafted by their official friends. And some have the temerity to criticize Milosevic for failing the Serbs.

Apparently I am writing hate filled sermons!! Look at what Daniel wrote about Albanians in Kosovo: "who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices." its OK Daniel, you can comfort yourself with the knowing that you "understand" Geopolitics. (Essentialy its a horde of consiparcy theories purpoted by Serbs about NATO and the West)

Yeah Lazar I know Krsljanin personally so I closed the link as soon as I opened it. He's actually not a bad guy in real life, but a political moron who became rather confused between nationalism and socialism.

In the US they do not allow foreigners to fund political parties!??
Well lets all copy the US because its a beacon of a healthy, functioning democracy!!!

My God man, get out of the political nursery playground. Life isn't as black and white as the sick US system paints it. Nor is it as black and white as other pressure groups would like to have it.

I'm wide awake living the life you are commenting on Lazar. Hard as though it might be to swallow, button pushing on the internet does not mean that you know what is going on in Serbia.

Still you are more than welcome to come and move to Serbia in order to see for yourself, as others have done. As they say - walk the walk.

Bganon, I do not know Krsljanin, but nonetheless the stuff that the guy said is for real. It's not only he that said so, many said so. But hey, I am sure that you will always find a reason to not look into reality, as you prefer the dream that you are living in.

The US is not a beacon of hope or prosperity. However things sure the hell are a whole lot more prosperous and ordered in the US than in Serbia or much of the world. Things are not perfect, but some things sure are good.

Foreigners must never interfere in elections. I do not understand what is difficult to understand about this simple thing. Democracy is about the locals deciding, not about foreigners deciding. Jeeze, why don't you learn some basic principles of democracy???

" its never Serbia, its always other people
(alban, 5 October 2011 13:42)

comments beget negative comments. Thus, you reap what you sow.
(Daniel, "

Alban was right, you are still blaming others for what Serbs are, just because we think you are criminals you do not have to prove us wrong, but till now you cant even prove yourself right...

Anyway its not the first or last time Serbs since Milo that Serbs get delusional. Sad for them, but who cares!?

'Democracy is about the locals deciding, not about foreigners deciding. Jeeze, why don't you learn some basic principles of democracy???'

And yet here you are lecturing me about Serbia Lazar? You don't seem to have any respect for me as a local. Why the hypocricy?

US democracy is sick and its getting worse and that is not an example to be imitated. I mean instead of repeating your mantra about foreingers (boo, hiss 'throw them out!') not being allowed to fund political parties in US, you might want to think about how difficult it would be for said foreigner to pay a congressman to represent his interests. You might want to think about how he could pay a lobby firm millions to meddle with US 'democracy'. In other words that precious law can easily be circumnavigated.

I don't know Lazar maybe you really aren't a bad guy at all, but you really don't think things through.

In other words its about doing what is right for the country - and not being controlled by interest groups either outside or inside Serbia.
(bganon, 5 October 2011 15:21)
===================
Bganon, I have yet to see a government like that.
It would be a nice change.

@Stefan
Your view is incredibly naive, to suggest that Serbia has a genuine democracy where it is so easy just to vote out a government, im afriad it doesnt work like this in Serbia. The fact is that the west would never tolerate a nationalist government in Serbia, just imagine how the west's interests would be jeopardised. Just like with the 2008 presidential election, how the SRS won the first round, but inconveniently for them there needed to be a second round, in which Tadic very conveniently won. I am not saying that EVERYONE hates Tadic as much as I do, but I do not believe for a second that more than 50% liked him and his BS enough to vote him into office in the second round, far too dirty and suspicious.

-Wednesday marks eleven years since the Democratic Opposition of Serbia (DOS) coalition staged a mass protest, forcing Slobodan Milošević to step down...-

Wait, you mean Milosevic is no longer in power? is this a joke? i mean, the policies, the belligerence, the arrogance, the ignorance, the prejudices, the lies, the media... are you guys (and gals) SURE that he and his lovely family are no longer in power?

i mean, just asking...

ciao! roberto frisco

Bganon, who says that I do not have respect for your opinions? I do not have respect for your arrogant attitude, how you dismiss things as if they are stupid, while they are in fact reality.

There are lobbies in the US, yes. However, these lobbies are not foreign lobbies. We do not see a Chinese lobby here. Furthermore, the point is election funding contributions. Foreigners are not allowed to do so in the US nor in any modern country. Foreigners simply must not interfere in internal affairs. Doing so is not following democratic procedures. What is so complicated about these simple fundamental principles???

Lazar,

If you think there aren't any foreign lobbyists in the US, you're sorely mistaken. In fact, one could argue that Serbia lost all the wars because it didn't understand the whole battlefield. Albanians, Croats, Bosniacs had massive lobbying efforts in Washington. Serbs, not so much.

Lazar I don't tolerate stupidity, anybody who reads my posts consistently can see that and yes I can occasionally be rude and dismissive. As for reality, even my critics will concede that I have a keen grasp on reality, what some don't agree with is my viewpoint.

All of that IRC, Emperors Clothes, Slobodan Milosevic org stuff I have trawled through years ago, during NATO bombardment and during the Milosevic trial when I spent many, many hours analysing the evidence.
I know it and have taken it on board and do not need to go over it again. The position you are espousing is not gospel and the truth, it is another narrative, some of which correct of some completely incorrect about what happened in the recent past in this region. You have got to wise up in believing, no one source will tell the complete truth so you should not believe one 'position'.

You cannot claim to respect the opinions of somebody you call clueless or living in a fantasy. I do realise that these are just retorts to my perceived 'attacks' upon you, but they are childish and don't help you present your arguments.

Finally your last comment is one of the reasons why I struggle to be civil. You are incredibly naieve. Whilst you are obsessing about 'foreigners' (man, whats up with that wasn't at least one of your parents a foreigner?) you completely fail to understand that foreign governments and companies are engaging in lobbying in the US and are influencing US policy all the time.

As Danilo points out, Serbs will often complain how Croatia and then Kosovo Albanians put many millions of dollars into lobbying the US, successfully. There are hundreds of foreign companies and governments that are doing the same every day in the US.

How can you not know that???

Having worked for both UNMIK and EULEX, both in Pristina 2001 and Mitrovica south and north, before and during the udi. It really does sadden me that the actions and behaviour of "International actors" involved in Kosovo, ie: K-For, EULEX. Lets be serious, if UNMIK, whose legal resolution 1244 is still the governing factor in Kosovo and not the Pristina or EULEX authorities,then why is no one questioning the ridiculous behaviour. Yes and that includes Belgrade . Where is justice in this debt ridden "wonderful" EU/ Euro society ??

Since 2004 I've been travelling through some Countries including Serbia also and then to Kosovo, from 2004 I have seen very very less improvement in Serbia compering to countries around, something like this new generation of Serbians don't deserve and yes I'am from Kosovo but every month Kosovo goes forward and changes for better, you have small number of people and politicians in Serbia who still have blind minds and keeps the whole Serbia in a Frozen position rather accepting the reality and move on forward simply because some individuals benefit from keeping Serbia in to this positions that has been since 1990-s as Vuk Draskovic declared few days back.

yes I'am from Kosovo but every month Kosovo goes forward and changes for better
(Dardania, 6 October 2011 04:50)

Really? Is there another place called Kosovo that I have never heard of? I ask because the one in the Balkans has been a bloody mess, day-in and day-out for years.

Finally after 11 years you accept that Milosevic was a dictator. How many more years do you need to realise that Kosovo is an independent state, and this all came from the latter's regime?

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. Judging by the comments I frequently read on this forum, they more or less support Milosevic. People on here genuinely believe Serbia was a victim of NATO conspiracy. They do not hold their own country accountable for anything. So yes, administratively there has been a change, culturally, its still the same paranoid the-US-is-out-to-get-us nation

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. Judging by the comments I frequently read on this forum, they more or less support Milosevic. People on here genuinely believe Serbia was a victim of NATO conspiracy. They do not hold their own country accountable for anything. So yes, administratively there has been a change, culturally, its still the same paranoid the-US-is-out-to-get-us nation
(alban, 5 October 2011 10:16)
Your ethnocentric comments betray your ignorance about global affairs. You are so bent on an independent Albanian Kosovo that you ignore the global realities. The US, GB, France, and Germany are so bent on creating an independent Kosovo that they go out of their way to promote it globally, even if the heads of many countries couldn't care less about an independent Albanian Kosovo. Was there a NATO conspiracy? Conspiracies are hard to prove. However, what we do know is that KFOR and EULEX are acting outside their mandate in support of an independent Albanian Kosovo. They are implementing the Atassari plan even though the Serbs have not agreed to it, thereby imposing their will on Serbia. During the bombing campaign, NATO bombed civilian targets instead of focusing on Milosevic and his cronies. Therefore, they were just as guilty of killing civilians as Milosevic was. In war, one focuses on fighting soldiers, not civilians. In the Hague, only Serbs are punished. Those who deserve being punished should be punished, yet Albanians are always somehow acquitted because of a lack of evidence. Thus, they court admits the Albanians did wrong but somehow cannot find witnesses willing to testify. With all these issues, is it any wonder that Serbs feel the way they do?
As far as you believing Serbia hasn't progressed much, who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices. d

It's a shame that we didn't seek for a diplomatic solution to Kosovo in 1998. If we did then Federal Yugoslavia might have held together and possibly see the partial reintegration of it by Macedonia rejoining Yugoslavia. The NATO bombing was essentially the final nail in Yugoslavia's coffin. As well, in our security, since Yugoslavia was the only thing that protected South Slavs from outsider intrigue such as Turks, Bulgarians and Americans.

i absolutely stand by what I said, no Milosevic, sure, attitudes to Kosova still the same as they were under Milosevic. its never Serbia, its always other people
(alban, 5 October 2011 13:42)

Your whole life revolves around your incorrect world view. I guess it is comforting just like a teddybear to a child. I'm sure you sleep well with your thoughts, but educated individuals understand reality. The world isn't the way you perceive it. You need Milosevic in your life so you can invent issues about Serbs. Oh, all Serbs are bloody murderers. Oh dear, you'd better run or get a dog since you are so scared of them. You know nothing about Serbia except for your assumptions which are baseless. Unfortunately, the more ignorant comments you make, the more hatred you are creating in others. Negative comments beget negative comments. Thus, you reap what you sow.

...and I'm glad Daniel comes in and proves my point totally. he apparently understands Geo-politics!!! look at this for exapmpe. i quote: "Was there a NATO conspiracy? Conspiracies are hard to prove." hard to prove but easy to believe in eh? then he incorrectly asserts that no KLA fighter has been jailed for war crimes. he really should read more.
i'm also glad he goes on to prove my point about a lack of cultural change with this hate-filled tirade: "As far as you believing Serbia hasn't progressed much, who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices."

i absolutely stand by what I said, no Milosevic, sure, attitudes to Kosova still the same as they were under Milosevic. its never Serbia, its always other people

" its never Serbia, its always other people
(alban, 5 October 2011 13:42)

comments beget negative comments. Thus, you reap what you sow.
(Daniel, "

Alban was right, you are still blaming others for what Serbs are, just because we think you are criminals you do not have to prove us wrong, but till now you cant even prove yourself right...

Anyway its not the first or last time Serbs since Milo that Serbs get delusional. Sad for them, but who cares!?

Lazar rather than promoting a book on another site, you might want to point out exactly what you are talking about, as many people don't have hours to trawl through one link after another to find what you believe is evidence for a 49% vote for Kostunica.

My first impression is that what you call 'DOS guys' (telling me immediately you don't know the subject) are not responsible for counting votes. An organisation called RIK did that. The Republican Electoral Commission, which was a state institution.

Of course even more confusing is when Milosevic apologists accuse Kostunica of cheating him and in the next breath hail Kostunica as the only honest politician in Serbia. And many do exactly this...

The brainwashing history revisionism goes on...

You call an elected popular government and it´s president "regime" eh? What do you call the unelected quisling regime we are stuck with,and can´t get rid of, now, again?

Never mind....

-Wednesday marks eleven years since the Democratic Opposition of Serbia (DOS) coalition staged a mass protest, forcing Slobodan Milošević to step down...-

Wait, you mean Milosevic is no longer in power? is this a joke? i mean, the policies, the belligerence, the arrogance, the ignorance, the prejudices, the lies, the media... are you guys (and gals) SURE that he and his lovely family are no longer in power?

i mean, just asking...

ciao! roberto frisco

"More democratic government" would be more suitable then "first democratic government", after all, Milosevic won the previous elections fairly enough (despite some minor irregularities in the 1997 municipal elections, he was certainly the most popular one in the country.

Milosevic was no hero, he betrayed the Serbs in Krajina in 1995 thus allowing the croats to conduct oluja, he placed sanctions on Karadzic and Republika Srpska making their fight so much more difficult, and then with Kosovo in 1999 he withdrew the army, as if NATO would have bombed for much longer, but no, he caved in and profited personally as a result.

Having said that, look what replaced him. All we got was a supposedly "democratic" government which became a lapdog to the west, and still to this day barely listens to the Serbian people. The difference between Milosevic and Tadic is that, Milosevic pretended to be patriotic, Tadic doesnt care about the public opinion and is rather open about his will to sell Serbia off to the EU. Probably the most patriotic thing Tadic has tried to do was raise the tri prsta (three fingers) when Djokovic won the Wimbledon final, even though it appeared utterly pathetic and non-genuine.

So I guess my point here is that there is nothing to celebrate, the government remained to be utterly corrupt, and the fact that Milosevic's party is now in a coalition with their former enemies the DS, just go to show that power is worth more than principles. The Serbian people are still not listened to, just as before.

"You call an elected popular government and it´s president "regime" eh? What do you call the unelected quisling regime we are stuck with,and can´t get rid of, now, again? "
(wtf, 5 October 2011 12:55)

As you can read, at least between the lines, the election in 2000 has been manipulated (or the results, whatever) and Milosevic didn't want to accept a victory of another candidate. Who is 'unelected' currently? If there are still people who have doubts about that the current government was elected in a free and democratic way, I cannot help. And please spare me the conspiracy theory about the 'evil west' influenced the elections. Of course western/EU countries support candidates of democratic parties that share European values more than some extremist or nationalist parties - that's only normal.

I still hope one day that we all will be able to get past our differences and form a new Yugoslavia that would be unified only economically and militarily; everything else stays the same (like no Serbo-Croatian language but Serbian language and Croatian language, etc). We need something that can tie together South Slavs against the emerging Turkey and prevent foreign intrigues in our lands (such as Trepca mines, one of the most envied after mines in Europe). With Socialist Yugoslavia, not the USA nor Russia could coerce us in siding with the Allies or the Soviets... but today? We are nothing but pushovers for those guys. We just got to get past our petty differences and think BIG, think what will be good for our peoples, the South Slavs of former Yugoslavia. Germans unifying made them powerful, and for a time, South Slavs were indeed powerful but we all threw that away with the Civil War in the 90s. Now we have to worry about Turkey, an emerging power with interests in the Balkans. Do we really want Turks to be strong again? I don't think it's in any of our interests for them to be strong and us weak.

Milosevic was no hero, he betrayed the Serbs in Krajina in 1995 thus allowing the croats to conduct oluja, he placed sanctions on Karadzic and Republika Srpska making their fight so much more difficult, and then with Kosovo in 1999 he withdrew the army, as if NATO would have bombed for much longer, but no, he caved in and profited personally as a result.

Having said that, look what replaced him. All we got was a supposedly "democratic" government which became a lapdog to the west, and still to this day barely listens to the Serbian people. The difference between Milosevic and Tadic is that, Milosevic pretended to be patriotic, Tadic doesnt care about the public opinion and is rather open about his will to sell Serbia off to the EU. Probably the most patriotic thing Tadic has tried to do was raise the tri prsta (three fingers) when Djokovic won the Wimbledon final, even though it appeared utterly pathetic and non-genuine.

So I guess my point here is that there is nothing to celebrate, the government remained to be utterly corrupt, and the fact that Milosevic's party is now in a coalition with their former enemies the DS, just go to show that power is worth more than principles. The Serbian people are still not listened to, just as before.
(SCP UK, 5 October 2011 13:32)

Then vote them out! What, 'cause every single democratically-elected government in history ihas been fantastic and blemish-free, without disadvantaging anyone? I'd rather have a government do something which THEY want to do, knowing that they could be voted out within a couple of years, then have a bunch of bureaucrats with no vision who play to popular support and simply form their policy around that, simply in an effort to keep their reputation a positive one amongst voters.

If Serbs don't like Tadic, just vote him out! Much more fruitful, civilised and democratic than running around like hooligans trying to disrupt a couple of homosexuals.

Kostunica did win only 49% of the vote. The DOS guys did not count votes from Kosovo and Metohija... that is why their numbers got inflated.

A chapter from this book explains it very clearly, http://www.iacenter.org/folder02/hidden_toc.htm

Bganon, you clearly are clueless. At the election time the DOS coalition was releasing "their" results every few hours. Their numbers were jumping all over the place. It truly was quite miserable disinformation. But, what else do you expect from an undemocratic movement? I say undemocratic because they were funded by the West. In the US they do not allow foreigners to fund political parties. Hence, under that basic principle of democracy, DOS was not democratic.

As you seem quite oblivious to what I was talking about, here is another link: http://www.iacenter.org/balkans/serbia101810//
I hope that this helps you wake up from your fantasies.

'Democracy is about the locals deciding, not about foreigners deciding. Jeeze, why don't you learn some basic principles of democracy???'

And yet here you are lecturing me about Serbia Lazar? You don't seem to have any respect for me as a local. Why the hypocricy?

US democracy is sick and its getting worse and that is not an example to be imitated. I mean instead of repeating your mantra about foreingers (boo, hiss 'throw them out!') not being allowed to fund political parties in US, you might want to think about how difficult it would be for said foreigner to pay a congressman to represent his interests. You might want to think about how he could pay a lobby firm millions to meddle with US 'democracy'. In other words that precious law can easily be circumnavigated.

I don't know Lazar maybe you really aren't a bad guy at all, but you really don't think things through.

Alban,
Please do not use the comments on this page to get an idea of what Serbia, or Kosovo Albanians think.
This forum is just a small sample of both populations and is not representative of a larger collective thought. The smple isn't random for example. You only get comments from people passionate enough to comment.
Although some ideas may be an accurate representative, many others are not.

Analyst I really wouldn't bother with wtf. He only sees what he wants to see. It is laughable really when somebody is so biased they won't even say move to SCP's position which is rational and correct to some degree.

Oh no Miloseivc was a democratic who loved his people and we currently have a dictatorship according to some! How we miss the man who brought us to the dire situation in Kosovo we see today - and lets be honest it is an absolutely terrible position. How we miss the man who was jointly responsible for more wars in the region since living memory. How we thank him for encouraging Croatian Serbs and Bosnian Serbs, only to abandon them to death, ethnic cleansing and a pityful existence today.

What a great military leader, what a great diplomat and what a great, great economist!

On the other hand no matter how bad the Milosevic period was in every way, that doesn't excuse the pityful governments since 2000. These governments had a mandate for change and the support of the majority of the people. Since then they have let the country down. They have not uprooted the system and tried to force through better values - in terms of cracking down on corruption. Instead they took the defeatist road Milosevic had taken when it became clear to everybody that the country was going down the toilet - take what you can for yourselves and your family, or in other words be corrupt because you will not be rewarded for working well. And things now seem to be getting worse rather than better. By the way the only way to stop endemic corruption is by taking a hard line on corruption upon those at the top. Once people see this is happening they will (and should be expected) to adjust their behaviour accordingly.

Of course the global economy has something to do with this general failure as well. But above all the problem has been an unwillingness to change the old system where it is not working.

I disagree with the sentiments of some of the posters that suggest that the only thing in Serbia that has changed is that Milosevic is not here. Attitudes have shifted, there is much more realism (or cynicism) in political debate these days.

However, I am very disappointed with the current government in its lack of vision and lack of ability to move forward. Governments shouldn't be cowardly, they must also set the pace and not simply respond to what they think is public opinion. In other words its about doing what is right for the country - and not being controlled by interest groups either outside or inside Serbia.

Apparently I am writing hate filled sermons!! Look at what Daniel wrote about Albanians in Kosovo: "who the heck are you to say anything when your people still live in the stone ages. Without American money, your people would be living on the streets. Without America bringing civilization to your people, you'd still be blood feuding all these other barbaric practices." its OK Daniel, you can comfort yourself with the knowing that you "understand" Geopolitics. (Essentialy its a horde of consiparcy theories purpoted by Serbs about NATO and the West)

Since 2004 I've been travelling through some Countries including Serbia also and then to Kosovo, from 2004 I have seen very very less improvement in Serbia compering to countries around, something like this new generation of Serbians don't deserve and yes I'am from Kosovo but every month Kosovo goes forward and changes for better, you have small number of people and politicians in Serbia who still have blind minds and keeps the whole Serbia in a Frozen position rather accepting the reality and move on forward simply because some individuals benefit from keeping Serbia in to this positions that has been since 1990-s as Vuk Draskovic declared few days back.

Funny that, the DOSssies burning the voting papers. How convenient. Did the serb military fire on serb civilians? Did Koštunica sign a 99 year lease with the americans for Camp Bondsteel? Did Tadic and co get in to power with a small majority after significant lobbying and visits by many major western european politicans promising the world but still delivering very little apart from EU pocket change? Indeed, many conveniently forget the fine details when they don't coincide with the official propaganda. 2011, Serbia still being shafted by their official friends. And some have the temerity to criticize Milosevic for failing the Serbs.

Yeah Lazar I know Krsljanin personally so I closed the link as soon as I opened it. He's actually not a bad guy in real life, but a political moron who became rather confused between nationalism and socialism.

In the US they do not allow foreigners to fund political parties!??
Well lets all copy the US because its a beacon of a healthy, functioning democracy!!!

My God man, get out of the political nursery playground. Life isn't as black and white as the sick US system paints it. Nor is it as black and white as other pressure groups would like to have it.

I'm wide awake living the life you are commenting on Lazar. Hard as though it might be to swallow, button pushing on the internet does not mean that you know what is going on in Serbia.

Still you are more than welcome to come and move to Serbia in order to see for yourself, as others have done. As they say - walk the walk.

Lazar I don't tolerate stupidity, anybody who reads my posts consistently can see that and yes I can occasionally be rude and dismissive. As for reality, even my critics will concede that I have a keen grasp on reality, what some don't agree with is my viewpoint.

All of that IRC, Emperors Clothes, Slobodan Milosevic org stuff I have trawled through years ago, during NATO bombardment and during the Milosevic trial when I spent many, many hours analysing the evidence.
I know it and have taken it on board and do not need to go over it again. The position you are espousing is not gospel and the truth, it is another narrative, some of which correct of some completely incorrect about what happened in the recent past in this region. You have got to wise up in believing, no one source will tell the complete truth so you should not believe one 'position'.

You cannot claim to respect the opinions of somebody you call clueless or living in a fantasy. I do realise that these are just retorts to my perceived 'attacks' upon you, but they are childish and don't help you present your arguments.

Finally your last comment is one of the reasons why I struggle to be civil. You are incredibly naieve. Whilst you are obsessing about 'foreigners' (man, whats up with that wasn't at least one of your parents a foreigner?) you completely fail to understand that foreign governments and companies are engaging in lobbying in the US and are influencing US policy all the time.

As Danilo points out, Serbs will often complain how Croatia and then Kosovo Albanians put many millions of dollars into lobbying the US, successfully. There are hundreds of foreign companies and governments that are doing the same every day in the US.

How can you not know that???

@Stefan
Your view is incredibly naive, to suggest that Serbia has a genuine democracy where it is so easy just to vote out a government, im afriad it doesnt work like this in Serbia. The fact is that the west would never tolerate a nationalist government in Serbia, just imagine how the west's interests would be jeopardised. Just like with the 2008 presidential election, how the SRS won the first round, but inconveniently for them there needed to be a second round, in which Tadic very conveniently won. I am not saying that EVERYONE hates Tadic as much as I do, but I do not believe for a second that more than 50% liked him and his BS enough to vote him into office in the second round, far too dirty and suspicious.

Bganon, I do not know Krsljanin, but nonetheless the stuff that the guy said is for real. It's not only he that said so, many said so. But hey, I am sure that you will always find a reason to not look into reality, as you prefer the dream that you are living in.

The US is not a beacon of hope or prosperity. However things sure the hell are a whole lot more prosperous and ordered in the US than in Serbia or much of the world. Things are not perfect, but some things sure are good.

Foreigners must never interfere in elections. I do not understand what is difficult to understand about this simple thing. Democracy is about the locals deciding, not about foreigners deciding. Jeeze, why don't you learn some basic principles of democracy???

Bganon, who says that I do not have respect for your opinions? I do not have respect for your arrogant attitude, how you dismiss things as if they are stupid, while they are in fact reality.

There are lobbies in the US, yes. However, these lobbies are not foreign lobbies. We do not see a Chinese lobby here. Furthermore, the point is election funding contributions. Foreigners are not allowed to do so in the US nor in any modern country. Foreigners simply must not interfere in internal affairs. Doing so is not following democratic procedures. What is so complicated about these simple fundamental principles???

Whilst Serbia has without a doubt become more democratic with the fall of Milosevic, truth of the matter is, Serbian attitudes towards Kosova haven't changed. (alban, 5 October 2011 10:16)

LOL!!! Now since Serbia has an "offical" "democracy" stamp it should not follow Milosevic's policies, such as protecting Serbia's sovereignty and giving in to any demands made by the West?

Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the Rambouillet Accords. No conspiracy, it was very clearly written that all of Yugoslavia at that time would be occupied by NATO and that after 3 years a referrendum would determine the status of Kosovo. Now that translates into an independent Kosovo with an occupation extending to all of Serbia and Montenegro. Now that bastard Milosevic paid the price for not signing. How dare anyone follow this policy? LOL!!!

yes I'am from Kosovo but every month Kosovo goes forward and changes for better
(Dardania, 6 October 2011 04:50)

Really? Is there another place called Kosovo that I have never heard of? I ask because the one in the Balkans has been a bloody mess, day-in and day-out for years.

Lazar,

If you think there aren't any foreign lobbyists in the US, you're sorely mistaken. In fact, one could argue that Serbia lost all the wars because it didn't understand the whole battlefield. Albanians, Croats, Bosniacs had massive lobbying efforts in Washington. Serbs, not so much.

Having worked for both UNMIK and EULEX, both in Pristina 2001 and Mitrovica south and north, before and during the udi. It really does sadden me that the actions and behaviour of "International actors" involved in Kosovo, ie: K-For, EULEX. Lets be serious, if UNMIK, whose legal resolution 1244 is still the governing factor in Kosovo and not the Pristina or EULEX authorities,then why is no one questioning the ridiculous behaviour. Yes and that includes Belgrade . Where is justice in this debt ridden "wonderful" EU/ Euro society ??

In other words its about doing what is right for the country - and not being controlled by interest groups either outside or inside Serbia.
(bganon, 5 October 2011 15:21)
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Bganon, I have yet to see a government like that.
It would be a nice change.