Peggy there is no evidence to show that the detterent effect works in cases of this kind.
Ataman (and Peggy) below is another example of European justice system where a child rapist is imprisoned indefinitely, more than the usual maximum sentence:
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
(Ataman, 30 June 2010 03:30)
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Wow, you have been to court more in a few months then I have in 50 years living in the US.
Maybe I do not understand corruption, apparently to you it is anything that does not make you happy. To me it is the police officer that takes 20 dollars to not give you a ticket, or the judge who decides a case because cousin Jim Bob is the one who is on the other side. It does happen, but the vast majority of people in the US would be afraid to offer a policeman a bribe for fear of being arrested, whereas I doubt many from your homeland would think twice from offering one.
As far as your corporation experience of being corrupt?
Where is the corruption? The company downsizzed and you got 20,000 dollars in severance pay vs direction to the door. What horrible working conditions. Most people would have been upset at losing the job but greatful for the money to help them out until they landed a new job. But I guess all the companies in Serbia pay 20,000 in severance after a few months employment?
Peggy - Yes, I am against all forms of the death penalty. I don't believe that it belongs in a civilised state, and I don't believe that it is morally right.
That doesn't mean that I don't think certain people should be removed from society, or that I wouldn't feel like taking matters into my own hands like anyone else.
Kate, I understand your attempt at recognising that abuse of a child has led to that child abusing other children when they become an adult but not all sex crimes are the same. Some sex offenders can be rehabilitated while others can't. The extent of the crime comes in to play when a decision of whether to use the death penalty or not is decided on.
Like I said, not all sex offenders are peadophiles.
I think that a child is raped and killed is when we can apply the death penalty. This has gone past a point of no return. It's only when the accused is proven guilty beyond any doubt that I would apply the death penalty. Proven guilty beyond a resonable doubt is not good enough because a jury can still get this wrong and sometimes has.
I would like to know if you are against the death penalty for serial killers and terrorists or are thier lives sacred as well?
There are some who should not walk amongst us and locking them for life is not a guaratee they will never get out. They could escape or worse get parolled by a bleeding heart panel in the future.
There is always a deterrant to consider. I would bet that some of those terrorists, serial killers and child killers would think twice about committing that sort of a crime if their own lives were at risk.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
"Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. "
Totally agree. That's why I don'tadvocate death penalty only for those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt for for those who were proven guilty beyond ANY doubt. There is a difference there.
Some people are just a waste of space and should not be granted life when they themselves have taken innocent lives like those of children or serial killers. Terrorists are also a waste of space as far as I am concerned and they deserve the death penalty also.
If people know they will be executed for such crimes, I'm sure some will think twice about committing them.
Naturally, it won't deter evryone but at least we can be sure the onces caught will never be able to repeat the crime.
Again, execution only if proven beyond ANY doubt, i.e. caught in the act or DNA proof.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
And we have another US crime drama fan! But we are dealing in reality not quality of television.
American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
(pss, 29 June 2010 21:35)
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:30)
It is easy to detect that you derive most of your information on the American justice system from the TV crime drama's. It is also laughable that anyone from Eastern Europe could criticize any justice system for its corruptness.
Your statement on plea bargains also shows that you have no concept of the situation. It is not unrelated at all. It is over used and many times much too lenient. But it also saves time and money in an overextended system. Majority of cases are settled with very little drama, you cannot consider high profile cases such as OJ as typical.
If "Jason" is who he says he is-an American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby?
(kate, 29 June 2010 14:05)
- Yes, because the first is not even illegal in Serbia, Hungary, Albania, Bulgaria, China (Mainland), Chile, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Laos, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania (and many more countries).
http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm
- Otherwise this is why the courts are out there, it is not an automatic process. In Hungary many Gypsy girls have their first child at 12-13. Hungarian court system can't put every single Gypsy male in the jail for that. It is simply known, they start the family very early and as long as things go with consent and the couple is over 11-12 year old plus there is no "significant" difference in age no one will pay attention.
For non-Gypsies it is more strict of course, under 14 it's decided on case-by-case basis.
Goran equally what will murdering convicted rapists fix?
Prevention is the key here for me. Emotional satisfaction for society is always tempting, but if it doesn't work what is the point? Besides, I believe that murder is wrong. How do you explain in the mind of an innocent (a child for example) that murder is evil and yet the state carries out murder on behalf of society?
Yes we have seen criminals reoffend many times. But unless you are suggesting murdering every single one of them I don't understand your point. Its not just a case of stopping criminals (which is of course important) its equally important what kind of society we are living in.
We can stop criminals completely if we have cameras recording us in our homes, on the street etc. Or we could stop crime completely if we placed a microchip on everybody at birth. What kind of world would that be!
Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. There have been many such cases as you know. I'm sure there are cases of those accused of rapes, molestation who have been killed by the state who were innocent. Even if various branches of the decision making process (police, courts) fabricate evidence for what they believe is a good cause because they are so outraged by a crime against a child, it might mean the wrong many dies and the real offender continues.
Secondly you negate the fact that this isn't just a genetic issue. A proportion of these rapists etc were raped / molested themselves as children. Whilst in the US their attackers might face the gas chamber they themselves did not receive the right help to prevent them becoming the monsterous thing that happened to them.
Thirdly I find your argument about length of jail sentences debateable. In this case if the man receives a sentence of 20 years he might either die in prison or be released at 72.
Also in some European justice systems there are measures to prevent certain prisoners from ever being released, as was the case for the famous case of Myra Hindley in the UK.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:16)
--
If people are born this way then I would say it's better to lock them away permanently and study them. I have watched a documentary in the UK regarding these types of people. They can't help themselves and the government is attempting to create a drug to block the parts of the brain to control this behaviour.
If we understand the problem and attempt to control it then we have a chance to minimising it and even detect potential people before they commit the crime. If we just decide to kill them, we'll never remove the problem.
It is not about the low life scum who do unspeakable things to children, it is about the other people who would be killed by the state once the floodgate opened with the introduction of the death penalty.
There are miscarriages of justice, sometimes discovered too late when an execution has been carried out.
Plus I disagree with state killings on principle. Only God has the right to take a life; all other killings are wrong, whether by the state or by criminals.
While the statistics of reoffending are extremely high, and child molestors in particular should not be allowed back into society, where would this end? For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby? It is very difficult to have an automatic death penalty for one and rely on the jury or the prosecutor to accept mitigating circumstances for the other and punish accordingly.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure that it's not state condoned killing.
Also, it is worth remembering that a very high proportion of sex offenders went through horrendous suffering at the hands of another monster when they were a child. Not that this belittles their crime, but it shouldn't be forgotten.
Ataman makes a good point. It is not about deterrence, it is about removing the threat once and for all. The recidivism rate for pedophiles and/or child rape is about 100%. These people should never see the light of day again. In these cases there need be a death sentence because what that suspect did to the victim is in many ways worse than homicide.
I am sure people in San Fran like Roberto will opine that the suspect was not breast-fed as a child or that we, society failed him. Who cares? The fact remains that these animals will re-offend if given the chance. Even with a life sentence, they can and have escaped from prison. They have committed sadistic murders against nurses and staff while incarcerated. Should we take that chance of letting them live? I would say not...
The parents are also responsible.
What was the girl doing in the beasts' house?
Was he some kind of teacher? maybe relative?
what a sad story...
i hope the child did not die in pain...
Lets all pray for her soul...
sometimes i think the only thing worth in this life is to hear the laughter of children..
The laughter of this child will not be heard again... but lets make sure that the rest of the children will have the chance to fill with their laughter our hearts with happiness.
If I'm not mistaken, the US has the death penalty but also one of the highest proportion of prisoners in the world.
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
The justice system in the States is pretty corrupt; most of the time it revolves around the prosecutor playing the drama queen, in some (in)famous cases both prosecution and defense playing that game.
And way to often things are affected by unrelated stuff like plea bargain.
Some States do not have death penalty, however. But most still have a pretty corrupted justice system. Few, like Vermont are maybe an exception. But crime in Vermont is among the lowest.
States with highest crime rate do fare the worst in the corruption and with jail population numbers. So somewhat is very much broken in these States...
----
People who rape children belong is rehabilitation forever but those who rape this country also belong in rehabilitation. Right Dacic?
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
I don't see any problem. In every country people who rape it belong straight to the parliament. So everything seem to be as it should.
"A politician is a person with such a thick skin that he can stand up without a backbone." (recently heard joke).
Give Dacic his due, the socialist tradition, continued by the DSS, was also to ignore and hush up this kind of offence, since socialists and then Proud Serbs didn't do this kind of thing, it only happened in the decadent, corrupted West. Until a few months ago there were practically no pedophiles in Serbia, now they are being arrested almost every week. For this alone Dacic deserves support.
The point is not about the most henious crimes committed, the point is about the bloodthirstiness of those that support the death penalty.
I say this because there is no evidence whatever showing that the death penalty reduces offending.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
This is not about reducing the number of FUTURE offenders by scaring them. That certainly won't work. It is about to reduce the risk and taking the convinced offenders out of the society permanently.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
Executing the guilty in the case when sexual offense against children is paired with homicide - than it's a prudent self-defense of the society. 3 meter of rope if done professionally provides a quick and painless solution, plus it's very economic.
Otherwise "merely" sexual offenders should be locked away forever, no release, no parole. I do not support the death penalty - but this is an exception because of the nature of the crime.
Unfortunately there is no such thing in Europe as "life term without parole" and only few States in USA give it for sexual offense against minors. That virtually ensures, they will strike repeatedly and every strike is a danger of homicide, too.
Getting one's own back as a state sanction would create the kind of world Orwell was trying to warn us about.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
In almost every single instance so far I have agreed with your comments, but in this instance I must disagree. We have seen criminals re-offend countless times, despite the fact that a jail sentence was served.
If a person can rape and kill an 8 year old girl what will jail time fix? These people are beyond help; they do not have the right to live.
It is not about the low life scum who do unspeakable things to children, it is about the other people who would be killed by the state once the floodgate opened with the introduction of the death penalty.
There are miscarriages of justice, sometimes discovered too late when an execution has been carried out.
Plus I disagree with state killings on principle. Only God has the right to take a life; all other killings are wrong, whether by the state or by criminals.
While the statistics of reoffending are extremely high, and child molestors in particular should not be allowed back into society, where would this end? For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby? It is very difficult to have an automatic death penalty for one and rely on the jury or the prosecutor to accept mitigating circumstances for the other and punish accordingly.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure that it's not state condoned killing.
Also, it is worth remembering that a very high proportion of sex offenders went through horrendous suffering at the hands of another monster when they were a child. Not that this belittles their crime, but it shouldn't be forgotten.
The point is not about the most henious crimes committed, the point is about the bloodthirstiness of those that support the death penalty.
I say this because there is no evidence whatever showing that the death penalty reduces offending.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
This is not about reducing the number of FUTURE offenders by scaring them. That certainly won't work. It is about to reduce the risk and taking the convinced offenders out of the society permanently.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
Executing the guilty in the case when sexual offense against children is paired with homicide - than it's a prudent self-defense of the society. 3 meter of rope if done professionally provides a quick and painless solution, plus it's very economic.
Otherwise "merely" sexual offenders should be locked away forever, no release, no parole. I do not support the death penalty - but this is an exception because of the nature of the crime.
Unfortunately there is no such thing in Europe as "life term without parole" and only few States in USA give it for sexual offense against minors. That virtually ensures, they will strike repeatedly and every strike is a danger of homicide, too.
Ataman makes a good point. It is not about deterrence, it is about removing the threat once and for all. The recidivism rate for pedophiles and/or child rape is about 100%. These people should never see the light of day again. In these cases there need be a death sentence because what that suspect did to the victim is in many ways worse than homicide.
I am sure people in San Fran like Roberto will opine that the suspect was not breast-fed as a child or that we, society failed him. Who cares? The fact remains that these animals will re-offend if given the chance. Even with a life sentence, they can and have escaped from prison. They have committed sadistic murders against nurses and staff while incarcerated. Should we take that chance of letting them live? I would say not...
Getting one's own back as a state sanction would create the kind of world Orwell was trying to warn us about.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
In almost every single instance so far I have agreed with your comments, but in this instance I must disagree. We have seen criminals re-offend countless times, despite the fact that a jail sentence was served.
If a person can rape and kill an 8 year old girl what will jail time fix? These people are beyond help; they do not have the right to live.
Give Dacic his due, the socialist tradition, continued by the DSS, was also to ignore and hush up this kind of offence, since socialists and then Proud Serbs didn't do this kind of thing, it only happened in the decadent, corrupted West. Until a few months ago there were practically no pedophiles in Serbia, now they are being arrested almost every week. For this alone Dacic deserves support.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:16)
--
If people are born this way then I would say it's better to lock them away permanently and study them. I have watched a documentary in the UK regarding these types of people. They can't help themselves and the government is attempting to create a drug to block the parts of the brain to control this behaviour.
If we understand the problem and attempt to control it then we have a chance to minimising it and even detect potential people before they commit the crime. If we just decide to kill them, we'll never remove the problem.
American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
(pss, 29 June 2010 21:35)
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:30)
It is easy to detect that you derive most of your information on the American justice system from the TV crime drama's. It is also laughable that anyone from Eastern Europe could criticize any justice system for its corruptness.
Your statement on plea bargains also shows that you have no concept of the situation. It is not unrelated at all. It is over used and many times much too lenient. But it also saves time and money in an overextended system. Majority of cases are settled with very little drama, you cannot consider high profile cases such as OJ as typical.
If "Jason" is who he says he is-an American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
Peggy - Yes, I am against all forms of the death penalty. I don't believe that it belongs in a civilised state, and I don't believe that it is morally right.
That doesn't mean that I don't think certain people should be removed from society, or that I wouldn't feel like taking matters into my own hands like anyone else.
If I'm not mistaken, the US has the death penalty but also one of the highest proportion of prisoners in the world.
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
The justice system in the States is pretty corrupt; most of the time it revolves around the prosecutor playing the drama queen, in some (in)famous cases both prosecution and defense playing that game.
And way to often things are affected by unrelated stuff like plea bargain.
Some States do not have death penalty, however. But most still have a pretty corrupted justice system. Few, like Vermont are maybe an exception. But crime in Vermont is among the lowest.
States with highest crime rate do fare the worst in the corruption and with jail population numbers. So somewhat is very much broken in these States...
----
People who rape children belong is rehabilitation forever but those who rape this country also belong in rehabilitation. Right Dacic?
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
I don't see any problem. In every country people who rape it belong straight to the parliament. So everything seem to be as it should.
"A politician is a person with such a thick skin that he can stand up without a backbone." (recently heard joke).
Goran equally what will murdering convicted rapists fix?
Prevention is the key here for me. Emotional satisfaction for society is always tempting, but if it doesn't work what is the point? Besides, I believe that murder is wrong. How do you explain in the mind of an innocent (a child for example) that murder is evil and yet the state carries out murder on behalf of society?
Yes we have seen criminals reoffend many times. But unless you are suggesting murdering every single one of them I don't understand your point. Its not just a case of stopping criminals (which is of course important) its equally important what kind of society we are living in.
We can stop criminals completely if we have cameras recording us in our homes, on the street etc. Or we could stop crime completely if we placed a microchip on everybody at birth. What kind of world would that be!
Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. There have been many such cases as you know. I'm sure there are cases of those accused of rapes, molestation who have been killed by the state who were innocent. Even if various branches of the decision making process (police, courts) fabricate evidence for what they believe is a good cause because they are so outraged by a crime against a child, it might mean the wrong many dies and the real offender continues.
Secondly you negate the fact that this isn't just a genetic issue. A proportion of these rapists etc were raped / molested themselves as children. Whilst in the US their attackers might face the gas chamber they themselves did not receive the right help to prevent them becoming the monsterous thing that happened to them.
Thirdly I find your argument about length of jail sentences debateable. In this case if the man receives a sentence of 20 years he might either die in prison or be released at 72.
Also in some European justice systems there are measures to prevent certain prisoners from ever being released, as was the case for the famous case of Myra Hindley in the UK.
For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby?
(kate, 29 June 2010 14:05)
- Yes, because the first is not even illegal in Serbia, Hungary, Albania, Bulgaria, China (Mainland), Chile, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Laos, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania (and many more countries).
http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm
- Otherwise this is why the courts are out there, it is not an automatic process. In Hungary many Gypsy girls have their first child at 12-13. Hungarian court system can't put every single Gypsy male in the jail for that. It is simply known, they start the family very early and as long as things go with consent and the couple is over 11-12 year old plus there is no "significant" difference in age no one will pay attention.
For non-Gypsies it is more strict of course, under 14 it's decided on case-by-case basis.
The parents are also responsible.
What was the girl doing in the beasts' house?
Was he some kind of teacher? maybe relative?
what a sad story...
i hope the child did not die in pain...
Lets all pray for her soul...
sometimes i think the only thing worth in this life is to hear the laughter of children..
The laughter of this child will not be heard again... but lets make sure that the rest of the children will have the chance to fill with their laughter our hearts with happiness.
Peggy there is no evidence to show that the detterent effect works in cases of this kind.
Ataman (and Peggy) below is another example of European justice system where a child rapist is imprisoned indefinitely, more than the usual maximum sentence:
"Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. "
Totally agree. That's why I don'tadvocate death penalty only for those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt for for those who were proven guilty beyond ANY doubt. There is a difference there.
Some people are just a waste of space and should not be granted life when they themselves have taken innocent lives like those of children or serial killers. Terrorists are also a waste of space as far as I am concerned and they deserve the death penalty also.
If people know they will be executed for such crimes, I'm sure some will think twice about committing them.
Naturally, it won't deter evryone but at least we can be sure the onces caught will never be able to repeat the crime.
Again, execution only if proven beyond ANY doubt, i.e. caught in the act or DNA proof.
Kate, I understand your attempt at recognising that abuse of a child has led to that child abusing other children when they become an adult but not all sex crimes are the same. Some sex offenders can be rehabilitated while others can't. The extent of the crime comes in to play when a decision of whether to use the death penalty or not is decided on.
Like I said, not all sex offenders are peadophiles.
I think that a child is raped and killed is when we can apply the death penalty. This has gone past a point of no return. It's only when the accused is proven guilty beyond any doubt that I would apply the death penalty. Proven guilty beyond a resonable doubt is not good enough because a jury can still get this wrong and sometimes has.
I would like to know if you are against the death penalty for serial killers and terrorists or are thier lives sacred as well?
There are some who should not walk amongst us and locking them for life is not a guaratee they will never get out. They could escape or worse get parolled by a bleeding heart panel in the future.
There is always a deterrant to consider. I would bet that some of those terrorists, serial killers and child killers would think twice about committing that sort of a crime if their own lives were at risk.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
And we have another US crime drama fan! But we are dealing in reality not quality of television.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
(Ataman, 30 June 2010 03:30)
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Wow, you have been to court more in a few months then I have in 50 years living in the US.
Maybe I do not understand corruption, apparently to you it is anything that does not make you happy. To me it is the police officer that takes 20 dollars to not give you a ticket, or the judge who decides a case because cousin Jim Bob is the one who is on the other side. It does happen, but the vast majority of people in the US would be afraid to offer a policeman a bribe for fear of being arrested, whereas I doubt many from your homeland would think twice from offering one.
As far as your corporation experience of being corrupt?
Where is the corruption? The company downsizzed and you got 20,000 dollars in severance pay vs direction to the door. What horrible working conditions. Most people would have been upset at losing the job but greatful for the money to help them out until they landed a new job. But I guess all the companies in Serbia pay 20,000 in severance after a few months employment?
Getting one's own back as a state sanction would create the kind of world Orwell was trying to warn us about.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
In almost every single instance so far I have agreed with your comments, but in this instance I must disagree. We have seen criminals re-offend countless times, despite the fact that a jail sentence was served.
If a person can rape and kill an 8 year old girl what will jail time fix? These people are beyond help; they do not have the right to live.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:30)
It is easy to detect that you derive most of your information on the American justice system from the TV crime drama's. It is also laughable that anyone from Eastern Europe could criticize any justice system for its corruptness.
Your statement on plea bargains also shows that you have no concept of the situation. It is not unrelated at all. It is over used and many times much too lenient. But it also saves time and money in an overextended system. Majority of cases are settled with very little drama, you cannot consider high profile cases such as OJ as typical.
If "Jason" is who he says he is-an American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
Goran equally what will murdering convicted rapists fix?
Prevention is the key here for me. Emotional satisfaction for society is always tempting, but if it doesn't work what is the point? Besides, I believe that murder is wrong. How do you explain in the mind of an innocent (a child for example) that murder is evil and yet the state carries out murder on behalf of society?
Yes we have seen criminals reoffend many times. But unless you are suggesting murdering every single one of them I don't understand your point. Its not just a case of stopping criminals (which is of course important) its equally important what kind of society we are living in.
We can stop criminals completely if we have cameras recording us in our homes, on the street etc. Or we could stop crime completely if we placed a microchip on everybody at birth. What kind of world would that be!
Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. There have been many such cases as you know. I'm sure there are cases of those accused of rapes, molestation who have been killed by the state who were innocent. Even if various branches of the decision making process (police, courts) fabricate evidence for what they believe is a good cause because they are so outraged by a crime against a child, it might mean the wrong many dies and the real offender continues.
Secondly you negate the fact that this isn't just a genetic issue. A proportion of these rapists etc were raped / molested themselves as children. Whilst in the US their attackers might face the gas chamber they themselves did not receive the right help to prevent them becoming the monsterous thing that happened to them.
Thirdly I find your argument about length of jail sentences debateable. In this case if the man receives a sentence of 20 years he might either die in prison or be released at 72.
Also in some European justice systems there are measures to prevent certain prisoners from ever being released, as was the case for the famous case of Myra Hindley in the UK.
Give Dacic his due, the socialist tradition, continued by the DSS, was also to ignore and hush up this kind of offence, since socialists and then Proud Serbs didn't do this kind of thing, it only happened in the decadent, corrupted West. Until a few months ago there were practically no pedophiles in Serbia, now they are being arrested almost every week. For this alone Dacic deserves support.
Ataman makes a good point. It is not about deterrence, it is about removing the threat once and for all. The recidivism rate for pedophiles and/or child rape is about 100%. These people should never see the light of day again. In these cases there need be a death sentence because what that suspect did to the victim is in many ways worse than homicide.
I am sure people in San Fran like Roberto will opine that the suspect was not breast-fed as a child or that we, society failed him. Who cares? The fact remains that these animals will re-offend if given the chance. Even with a life sentence, they can and have escaped from prison. They have committed sadistic murders against nurses and staff while incarcerated. Should we take that chance of letting them live? I would say not...
The parents are also responsible.
What was the girl doing in the beasts' house?
Was he some kind of teacher? maybe relative?
what a sad story...
i hope the child did not die in pain...
Lets all pray for her soul...
sometimes i think the only thing worth in this life is to hear the laughter of children..
The laughter of this child will not be heard again... but lets make sure that the rest of the children will have the chance to fill with their laughter our hearts with happiness.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
(Ataman, 29 June 2010 13:16)
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If people are born this way then I would say it's better to lock them away permanently and study them. I have watched a documentary in the UK regarding these types of people. They can't help themselves and the government is attempting to create a drug to block the parts of the brain to control this behaviour.
If we understand the problem and attempt to control it then we have a chance to minimising it and even detect potential people before they commit the crime. If we just decide to kill them, we'll never remove the problem.
American IPO, I think he would agree that the corruption in the US does not even compare to what you find in Hungary, Poland, Serbia, and the rest of the balkans.
(pss, 29 June 2010 21:35)
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
It is not about the low life scum who do unspeakable things to children, it is about the other people who would be killed by the state once the floodgate opened with the introduction of the death penalty.
There are miscarriages of justice, sometimes discovered too late when an execution has been carried out.
Plus I disagree with state killings on principle. Only God has the right to take a life; all other killings are wrong, whether by the state or by criminals.
While the statistics of reoffending are extremely high, and child molestors in particular should not be allowed back into society, where would this end? For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby? It is very difficult to have an automatic death penalty for one and rely on the jury or the prosecutor to accept mitigating circumstances for the other and punish accordingly.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure that it's not state condoned killing.
Also, it is worth remembering that a very high proportion of sex offenders went through horrendous suffering at the hands of another monster when they were a child. Not that this belittles their crime, but it shouldn't be forgotten.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true,but as to justice system well there US is more corrupt than most 3rd world countries maybe exluding Albania.
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
And we have another US crime drama fan! But we are dealing in reality not quality of television.
The point is not about the most henious crimes committed, the point is about the bloodthirstiness of those that support the death penalty.
I say this because there is no evidence whatever showing that the death penalty reduces offending.
(bganon, 29 June 2010 11:55)
This is not about reducing the number of FUTURE offenders by scaring them. That certainly won't work. It is about to reduce the risk and taking the convinced offenders out of the society permanently.
What is proven: it is virtually impossible to rehabilitate a child rapist. They are ticking time bombs - they are hooked to their crime and given the opportunity will strike again and again. Why is that is related to the way certain parts of human body are built in different ages - I don't want to go in details.
Executing the guilty in the case when sexual offense against children is paired with homicide - than it's a prudent self-defense of the society. 3 meter of rope if done professionally provides a quick and painless solution, plus it's very economic.
Otherwise "merely" sexual offenders should be locked away forever, no release, no parole. I do not support the death penalty - but this is an exception because of the nature of the crime.
Unfortunately there is no such thing in Europe as "life term without parole" and only few States in USA give it for sexual offense against minors. That virtually ensures, they will strike repeatedly and every strike is a danger of homicide, too.
If I'm not mistaken, the US has the death penalty but also one of the highest proportion of prisoners in the world.
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
The justice system in the States is pretty corrupt; most of the time it revolves around the prosecutor playing the drama queen, in some (in)famous cases both prosecution and defense playing that game.
And way to often things are affected by unrelated stuff like plea bargain.
Some States do not have death penalty, however. But most still have a pretty corrupted justice system. Few, like Vermont are maybe an exception. But crime in Vermont is among the lowest.
States with highest crime rate do fare the worst in the corruption and with jail population numbers. So somewhat is very much broken in these States...
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People who rape children belong is rehabilitation forever but those who rape this country also belong in rehabilitation. Right Dacic?
(Zoran, 29 June 2010 12:46)
I don't see any problem. In every country people who rape it belong straight to the parliament. So everything seem to be as it should.
"A politician is a person with such a thick skin that he can stand up without a backbone." (recently heard joke).
For example, how can you legally differentiate between a 21 year old who has consentual sex with a 15 year old (which I am by no means condoning) and a monster who rapes a 6 year old or a baby?
(kate, 29 June 2010 14:05)
- Yes, because the first is not even illegal in Serbia, Hungary, Albania, Bulgaria, China (Mainland), Chile, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Laos, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania (and many more countries).
http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm
- Otherwise this is why the courts are out there, it is not an automatic process. In Hungary many Gypsy girls have their first child at 12-13. Hungarian court system can't put every single Gypsy male in the jail for that. It is simply known, they start the family very early and as long as things go with consent and the couple is over 11-12 year old plus there is no "significant" difference in age no one will pay attention.
For non-Gypsies it is more strict of course, under 14 it's decided on case-by-case basis.
"Ataman my counter argument to you is similar to Kates. First of all I don't support the sending of those to their deaths if one of them will be found to be innocent later. "
Totally agree. That's why I don'tadvocate death penalty only for those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt for for those who were proven guilty beyond ANY doubt. There is a difference there.
Some people are just a waste of space and should not be granted life when they themselves have taken innocent lives like those of children or serial killers. Terrorists are also a waste of space as far as I am concerned and they deserve the death penalty also.
If people know they will be executed for such crimes, I'm sure some will think twice about committing them.
Naturally, it won't deter evryone but at least we can be sure the onces caught will never be able to repeat the crime.
Again, execution only if proven beyond ANY doubt, i.e. caught in the act or DNA proof.
Indeed in business life your statment may be true
(szemi, 29 June 2010 22:29)
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
Kate, I understand your attempt at recognising that abuse of a child has led to that child abusing other children when they become an adult but not all sex crimes are the same. Some sex offenders can be rehabilitated while others can't. The extent of the crime comes in to play when a decision of whether to use the death penalty or not is decided on.
Like I said, not all sex offenders are peadophiles.
I think that a child is raped and killed is when we can apply the death penalty. This has gone past a point of no return. It's only when the accused is proven guilty beyond any doubt that I would apply the death penalty. Proven guilty beyond a resonable doubt is not good enough because a jury can still get this wrong and sometimes has.
I would like to know if you are against the death penalty for serial killers and terrorists or are thier lives sacred as well?
There are some who should not walk amongst us and locking them for life is not a guaratee they will never get out. They could escape or worse get parolled by a bleeding heart panel in the future.
There is always a deterrant to consider. I would bet that some of those terrorists, serial killers and child killers would think twice about committing that sort of a crime if their own lives were at risk.
Peggy - Yes, I am against all forms of the death penalty. I don't believe that it belongs in a civilised state, and I don't believe that it is morally right.
That doesn't mean that I don't think certain people should be removed from society, or that I wouldn't feel like taking matters into my own hands like anyone else.
Not even that: the Dilbert cartoons are the proof. Otherwise I got a little peek into American justice system defending myself in the court twice with speeding ticket, once with lights not being turned on and once suing a credit card company for their dealings.
My record is even (2:2), but during these cases I can't call "high profile" I got the "drama queen prosecutor", "cop as a liar", "thick-skin-shyster" experience. Un-freakin-believable. The most disgusting was the prosecutor in New Jersey with my first speeding ticket. They really go as far as possible with intimidation and lies. That was the only time I got scared. The next times I was more aggressive and won.
All that drama for a lousy $60. It made me vomit.
As for morale of larger corporations: thanks, I worked for two major ones. Lies and thick skin. All the b.s. about "team work" and blah-blah-blah, but somehow it's just b.s.
But truth is truth: they pay nicely, I got neat 401K and as our floor was laid off $20K in severance after working only few months. The mentality is: "just get the money and run" - but they will tell you all kind of nice things.
(Ataman, 30 June 2010 03:30)
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Wow, you have been to court more in a few months then I have in 50 years living in the US.
Maybe I do not understand corruption, apparently to you it is anything that does not make you happy. To me it is the police officer that takes 20 dollars to not give you a ticket, or the judge who decides a case because cousin Jim Bob is the one who is on the other side. It does happen, but the vast majority of people in the US would be afraid to offer a policeman a bribe for fear of being arrested, whereas I doubt many from your homeland would think twice from offering one.
As far as your corporation experience of being corrupt?
Where is the corruption? The company downsizzed and you got 20,000 dollars in severance pay vs direction to the door. What horrible working conditions. Most people would have been upset at losing the job but greatful for the money to help them out until they landed a new job. But I guess all the companies in Serbia pay 20,000 in severance after a few months employment?
Peggy there is no evidence to show that the detterent effect works in cases of this kind.
Ataman (and Peggy) below is another example of European justice system where a child rapist is imprisoned indefinitely, more than the usual maximum sentence:
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