Restaurants want to hang on to smoke

These things have to be done by stages. Smoking in Serbia is so common that it would not work to go to far too fast - the law would simply be flouted and that would just bring the law into disrespect.

Before any ban it is necessary to advertise widely about the stupidity of smoking. To die through smoking is something of an 'auto goal'. Why choose to kill yourself?

The next stage is to emphasise the effect of secondary smoking - it makes children ill even before birth, it makes people ill - even giving them cancer through breathing other people's smoke.

Smoking is not a harmless activity - it hurts others too. Just being a smoker can act as a bad example to some young person who copies you because he or she thinks you are a hero - where as in fact you are an uncontrolled addict who is creating the conditions for that young person also to die of lung cancer or from an unnecessary heart attack.

Certainly it is necessary to ban smoking in the work place - offices, taxis, etc.. Where ever there are members of the public or other employees they need to have the right to a smoke free environment. In these places it is easier to enforce the ban - it's the boss that gets fined if the law is broken.

The legal system needs to allow people to sue for damage done - either the tobacco companies for negligence or employers for not ensuring a safe smoke-free environment. Bosses don't like being sued so that helps makes enforcement relatively automatic.

Bans on tobacco advertising, restrictions on the places tobacco can be sold are essential.

If bans are going to be made in clubs, bars, restaurants etc., people have to be aware that they will be rigidly enforced and that both smokers and proprietors will be expected to contribute large fines when ever the law is broken.

Currently smoking is seen as a social activity and some kind of independent resistance (although I don't know to what). That attitude will be undermined over time.

I used to be a smoker and the thing I liked least is that I could not have control over it. It controlled me. As well as controlling me it was also potentially killing me. It also cost me money that could be spent elsewhere. It was endangering children around me, it was setting a bad example that I did not want followed. In general, I realised that smoking is a sign of weakness and fortunately (although it took a while) managed to give it up. I would not want to restart and would encourage every step possible to make smoking inconvenient, difficult or (ideally) impossible.

The parents of my wife did smoke and she developed some ugly allergies due passive smoke in her childhood.

"Smoking area" in the restaurant or in the train is like a public basin with a special area marked: "here you can pee-pee in the water"

We try to avoid the restaurants in the winter not just because it's cheaper. In Summer it's better: we can take place outdoors.

And traveling on the trains or busses with every seat and curtain smelling like a chimney is not a big pleasure.

Now I'm all for balanced legislation on smoking and not the extreme legislation we have seen in some European countries such as the UK.

However, you have to wonder at the integrity of people who formerly didn't respect the rights of non smokers (non smoking areas) now all of a sudden coming up with a compromise.

It seems as if only once they are personally threatened do they start understanding that others have rights to sit in a smoke free (or smoke reduced) space. Well in fact they probably don't understand, but they do understand a loss in profits.

One proposal of the smokers suggest that cafes smaller than 100 square metres can make a decision as to whether they will be smoking or non smoking cafe. Sounds like no change at all.

Its pretty simple, if small cafes want to retain smoking in their cafe's they should have to purchase ventilation systems that reduce smoke to a minimum. A similar scheme should be applied univerally where creating non smoking and smoking areas does not solve the problem.

Creative, balanced and workable legislation should be brought through on this issue.

"The ban on smoking - coming on top of already exorbitant levels of excise on alcohol - is rapidly wiping out the British pub, which is absolutely central to our way of life."

I did notice some negative aspects of "British Pub life" on the Budapest-Belgrade trains during the Exit festival...

That's way to excessive even for Russian taste. :(

This is a personal choice. Although it isn't pleasant to smell smoke while enjoying a meal, it isn't the government's right to enforce something that they collect taxes on without question.

Should any law be entertained, I agree with the Spanish/Portuguese law.

If second hand smoke really does cause so many allergies/asthma why does everyone I know in Silicon Valley have them and not a single person I know in the Balkans? I'm sure second hand smoke is bad for you, but I'm also very sure that driving down the highway is a million times worse. Why are we ignoring the major contributing factors to poor air conditions and focusing only on the minor ones? Its simply bad science.

The ban on smoking - coming on top of already exorbitant levels of excise on alcohol - is rapidly wiping out the British pub, which is absolutely central to our way of life. Come on Serbia, you've been oppressed by Turks, communists and nationalistic kleptocrats - why the suddeen enthusiasm for allowing the state to tell you how to live?

Restaurants and Cafe's are private property and not State Property! Thus if the owner of that private property (business) wants to allow smoking it should be his/her right! No one is forcing non-smokers to go to these places! If you don't like smoking, then do not go to the restaurant or cafe, the flip side to this argument is that another owner of a restaurant can choose to make his/her establishment a smoke free restaurant!
I am all for banning smoking on state property, in state venues such as parks, airports, bus shelters, government buildings and so on.
All of this is a mute point anyway, since laws such as these are destined to fail, in Serbia almost 1 in 3 people over the age of 18 smoke!

Ataman: "I did notice some negative aspects of "British Pub life" on the Budapest-Belgrade trains during the Exit festival... "

It's not about the 'pub culture' so-called by someone else on here. It's about the drinking culture or lack of. Everyone just wants to get pissed (but who can blame them?) - which is not good for those around them. It's actually very sad knowing that your youth society does this regularly to the point of being hospitalised and damaging themselves in various ways.

At least in the UK there are now very strict drinking and driving laws. Personally, I think I drive much better after a couple of drinks [that was a joke BTW].

The UK isn't the only country with this problem - ever been on a Scandinavian ferry??

As for the total ban on smoking, it was imposed in France where lots of people smoke and it seems to have been pretty much accepted.

The same in Britain - people just go outside if they want a smoke. While I am totally against the state enforcing restrictions on people, this is just fair, especially in restaurants where it's really horrible to eat food while people are smoking around you.

It's even worse if you have kids with you - why should they inhale smoke and have their clothes smell of nicotine? How horrible.

And I say that as someone who succumbs to the odd bit of baccy myself (but not too odd!).

Sorry mate, I do remember your EXIT train story and wince at the recollection. However, what you saw was hooligans "letting their hair down" abroad. It has nothing to do with traditional pub culture, which is self-regulating in a way which any Serb, be they from town or village, would recognise. Sorry, you're way off the mark on this occasion (and the offer of a couple of pints in a proper English boozer is hereby extended as a gesture of good faith).

I did not want to offend anyone with the remark about EXIT, it would be just better if these people wouldn't feel that "relaxed".

To Kate: I never was on any Scandinavian ferry but there is certain talk about them all over travel forums. I also know that collecting empty bottles used to be an extra income for Soviet customs officers on the border between USSR and Finland in early 80-s.

Knowing the Russian vodka problem one has to wonder somewhat can be THAT bad.

Alcohol wasn't the biggest problem on "EXIT" trains - some girls from France did mix is with "pot".

In Australia we have quite strict smoking laws at entertainment venues and to be honest its worked quite well.

No smoking indoors is allowed at bars, resteraunts and clubs. Only in designated outdoor areas.

Personally I believe the strong stance against smoking in Australia is doing a great thing for public health.

I'm not entirely sure this step would work in Serbia though. It has taken the government years to reduce the amount of people who smoke in Australia and alot of taxpayers money in campaigns. It has to be a gradual process.

Of course people have their own choice to quit or continue smoking.

The parents of my wife did smoke and she developed some ugly allergies due passive smoke in her childhood.

"Smoking area" in the restaurant or in the train is like a public basin with a special area marked: "here you can pee-pee in the water"

We try to avoid the restaurants in the winter not just because it's cheaper. In Summer it's better: we can take place outdoors.

And traveling on the trains or busses with every seat and curtain smelling like a chimney is not a big pleasure.

Now I'm all for balanced legislation on smoking and not the extreme legislation we have seen in some European countries such as the UK.

However, you have to wonder at the integrity of people who formerly didn't respect the rights of non smokers (non smoking areas) now all of a sudden coming up with a compromise.

It seems as if only once they are personally threatened do they start understanding that others have rights to sit in a smoke free (or smoke reduced) space. Well in fact they probably don't understand, but they do understand a loss in profits.

One proposal of the smokers suggest that cafes smaller than 100 square metres can make a decision as to whether they will be smoking or non smoking cafe. Sounds like no change at all.

Its pretty simple, if small cafes want to retain smoking in their cafe's they should have to purchase ventilation systems that reduce smoke to a minimum. A similar scheme should be applied univerally where creating non smoking and smoking areas does not solve the problem.

Creative, balanced and workable legislation should be brought through on this issue.

These things have to be done by stages. Smoking in Serbia is so common that it would not work to go to far too fast - the law would simply be flouted and that would just bring the law into disrespect.

Before any ban it is necessary to advertise widely about the stupidity of smoking. To die through smoking is something of an 'auto goal'. Why choose to kill yourself?

The next stage is to emphasise the effect of secondary smoking - it makes children ill even before birth, it makes people ill - even giving them cancer through breathing other people's smoke.

Smoking is not a harmless activity - it hurts others too. Just being a smoker can act as a bad example to some young person who copies you because he or she thinks you are a hero - where as in fact you are an uncontrolled addict who is creating the conditions for that young person also to die of lung cancer or from an unnecessary heart attack.

Certainly it is necessary to ban smoking in the work place - offices, taxis, etc.. Where ever there are members of the public or other employees they need to have the right to a smoke free environment. In these places it is easier to enforce the ban - it's the boss that gets fined if the law is broken.

The legal system needs to allow people to sue for damage done - either the tobacco companies for negligence or employers for not ensuring a safe smoke-free environment. Bosses don't like being sued so that helps makes enforcement relatively automatic.

Bans on tobacco advertising, restrictions on the places tobacco can be sold are essential.

If bans are going to be made in clubs, bars, restaurants etc., people have to be aware that they will be rigidly enforced and that both smokers and proprietors will be expected to contribute large fines when ever the law is broken.

Currently smoking is seen as a social activity and some kind of independent resistance (although I don't know to what). That attitude will be undermined over time.

I used to be a smoker and the thing I liked least is that I could not have control over it. It controlled me. As well as controlling me it was also potentially killing me. It also cost me money that could be spent elsewhere. It was endangering children around me, it was setting a bad example that I did not want followed. In general, I realised that smoking is a sign of weakness and fortunately (although it took a while) managed to give it up. I would not want to restart and would encourage every step possible to make smoking inconvenient, difficult or (ideally) impossible.

Restaurants and Cafe's are private property and not State Property! Thus if the owner of that private property (business) wants to allow smoking it should be his/her right! No one is forcing non-smokers to go to these places! If you don't like smoking, then do not go to the restaurant or cafe, the flip side to this argument is that another owner of a restaurant can choose to make his/her establishment a smoke free restaurant!
I am all for banning smoking on state property, in state venues such as parks, airports, bus shelters, government buildings and so on.
All of this is a mute point anyway, since laws such as these are destined to fail, in Serbia almost 1 in 3 people over the age of 18 smoke!

In Australia we have quite strict smoking laws at entertainment venues and to be honest its worked quite well.

No smoking indoors is allowed at bars, resteraunts and clubs. Only in designated outdoor areas.

Personally I believe the strong stance against smoking in Australia is doing a great thing for public health.

I'm not entirely sure this step would work in Serbia though. It has taken the government years to reduce the amount of people who smoke in Australia and alot of taxpayers money in campaigns. It has to be a gradual process.

Of course people have their own choice to quit or continue smoking.

This is a personal choice. Although it isn't pleasant to smell smoke while enjoying a meal, it isn't the government's right to enforce something that they collect taxes on without question.

Should any law be entertained, I agree with the Spanish/Portuguese law.

If second hand smoke really does cause so many allergies/asthma why does everyone I know in Silicon Valley have them and not a single person I know in the Balkans? I'm sure second hand smoke is bad for you, but I'm also very sure that driving down the highway is a million times worse. Why are we ignoring the major contributing factors to poor air conditions and focusing only on the minor ones? Its simply bad science.

The ban on smoking - coming on top of already exorbitant levels of excise on alcohol - is rapidly wiping out the British pub, which is absolutely central to our way of life. Come on Serbia, you've been oppressed by Turks, communists and nationalistic kleptocrats - why the suddeen enthusiasm for allowing the state to tell you how to live?

"The ban on smoking - coming on top of already exorbitant levels of excise on alcohol - is rapidly wiping out the British pub, which is absolutely central to our way of life."

I did notice some negative aspects of "British Pub life" on the Budapest-Belgrade trains during the Exit festival...

That's way to excessive even for Russian taste. :(

Sorry mate, I do remember your EXIT train story and wince at the recollection. However, what you saw was hooligans "letting their hair down" abroad. It has nothing to do with traditional pub culture, which is self-regulating in a way which any Serb, be they from town or village, would recognise. Sorry, you're way off the mark on this occasion (and the offer of a couple of pints in a proper English boozer is hereby extended as a gesture of good faith).

Ataman: "I did notice some negative aspects of "British Pub life" on the Budapest-Belgrade trains during the Exit festival... "

It's not about the 'pub culture' so-called by someone else on here. It's about the drinking culture or lack of. Everyone just wants to get pissed (but who can blame them?) - which is not good for those around them. It's actually very sad knowing that your youth society does this regularly to the point of being hospitalised and damaging themselves in various ways.

At least in the UK there are now very strict drinking and driving laws. Personally, I think I drive much better after a couple of drinks [that was a joke BTW].

The UK isn't the only country with this problem - ever been on a Scandinavian ferry??

As for the total ban on smoking, it was imposed in France where lots of people smoke and it seems to have been pretty much accepted.

The same in Britain - people just go outside if they want a smoke. While I am totally against the state enforcing restrictions on people, this is just fair, especially in restaurants where it's really horrible to eat food while people are smoking around you.

It's even worse if you have kids with you - why should they inhale smoke and have their clothes smell of nicotine? How horrible.

And I say that as someone who succumbs to the odd bit of baccy myself (but not too odd!).

I did not want to offend anyone with the remark about EXIT, it would be just better if these people wouldn't feel that "relaxed".

To Kate: I never was on any Scandinavian ferry but there is certain talk about them all over travel forums. I also know that collecting empty bottles used to be an extra income for Soviet customs officers on the border between USSR and Finland in early 80-s.

Knowing the Russian vodka problem one has to wonder somewhat can be THAT bad.

Alcohol wasn't the biggest problem on "EXIT" trains - some girls from France did mix is with "pot".