These so called "aegeans" were kicked out of greece for helping Tito and the Greek communists in an attempt to turn greece behind the Iron curtain. Tito wanted into the Aegean and used/brainwashed the skopiani in an attempt to help him achieve this. These "Agean Macedonians" in turn murdered, tortured and stole. And they should be rewarded for this??? Not only should they not be allowed to step foot on greek soil, but the Greek gov't should never have allowed the communist Greeks back in when they did.
@10
All that to just say nothing at the end. If as you claim, that Greek intellectual has said that we are going to lose the case, then why dont you?
Please take it to the courts. Karamanlis already challenged you months ago. So, go ahead. I cant understnd the delay since it is known fact that you fyromian Slavs have been working on it for several years now :)
Greek intellectuals and Professors have warned their Government as recently as last week to rethink their policy of not allowing Aegean Macedonians to visit Greece and in particular to rethink their policty regarding confiscated properties. Panteeion University Professor Alexis Heraclidis calls Greek Government expulsion of Macedonians "black history" and the worst thing Greece has ever done.
"You can't just take someone's house and evict them forever. This was done without any Court proceedings. People were simply rounded up and kicked out from their homes, later not allowed to return." says Heraclidis.
He further explains that the present Greek Government should stop the mass hysteria because it is not helpful in resolving any open questions, adding Greece is the one who has ratted itself out, as the one who panics is always the one at fault.
Professor Heraclidis says presently the Government has zero chance to win any court case Macedonians would bring about, adding after everything is said and done, Greece will be labeled as a black sheep in Europe, apart from being forced to pay a settlement that would fetch easily into the billions.
Heraclidis isn't alone in his opinion re: Macedonia and Greece. More Greek intellectuals have said Greece cant hide from its past, rather should quickly fix things before the case gets to Court, because then it would be too late.
Greek Government isn't commenting the views of Greek intellectuals, while local media viewed the Macedonian Parliament Resolution as another "provocation".
Hey Peggy; do I not recall you making heartfelt comments in defense of the injustices against Serbia? You cannot cry for injustice then SUPPORT IT in your "Greece"/ Macedonia comments!
IF YOU EXPECT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, THEN EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE REAL HISTORY OF THE REGION!
BTW If Aegean Macedonians didn't exist, how could the coming lawsuits take root? The Macedonian Government, along with the assistance of the Turkish archives, where all relevent documents are kept re: Balkan history during the Ottoman period, are collating all the necessary material for the coming lawsuits! Wow, really "brainwashed" huh...?
Finally, gratitude and thanks to b92 on behalf of all MACEDONIANS everywhere for not bowing to the Greek xenophobia!! Bravo! ( I am referring to your references to us as that which we are, and always have been; MACEDONIANS! Thanx for the RESPECT!
tHOSE WHO DO NOT RESPECT THEIR NEIGHBOUR, have no respect for THEMSELVES!
THERE ARE NO 'ETHNIC MACEDONIANS'!!!
This is a post 1944 invention.
It is mad, just because you rename an area Macedonia in 1944, you do not also create an ethnicity???
Gruevsky and his sad nationalist cabinet must step down and out of power as soon as possible...
@2
You are making some assumptions that lead you to false conclusions.
Obviously you dont know some details that change the whole issue.
1. Either on their own or by force, those people left their properties and went away. There are court decisions though that either confiscate those properties or give them to others based on the (i dont know the legal term) right of use or something like that.
2. The supposedly "racist" Greek laws are not at all "racist" especially on this issue. Why? Because those that were taken away as children in today's Fyrom, where brainwashed that much, that their Fyromian passports write: Ethnicity "Macedonian", Born "lerin, macedonia" for example. Now since Greece doesnt recognise (rightfully) any kind of fake ethnicity called "macedonian" and even more for a Greek citizen, and because there is no such place in Greece called "lerin, macedonia", to allow those people to enter the country would be illegal in the first place.
If those people change their passport and say for example: Born "Florina, Greece" things would be much more different. But because of their brainwashing and the racist Fyromian propaganda and nationalistic irredendist aspirations, they keep using that as a means for pressure and an indirect "proof" of the existence of a supposed "macedonian" ethnicity, not only in Greece but in Fyrom also.
The case is clear. Whoever feels that wants their properties back, the courts are there, waiting. Go ahead and try it. With or without goverment cover, which is the most ridiculus of all.
Its time the greek nation came to terms with its treatment of Macedonian people, ethnic cleansing, cultural ethnocide. Greek treatment of Macedonians was worse than 500 years of ottoman rule!
OMG, now Mr. Gruevski is throwing everything into the mix. The dispute is the name issue so why are you not concentrating on getting this resolved before you start with everything else?
The only reason this is being thrown into the mix is to make the whole issue so complicated in the hope that the international community will take focus off the name issue.
Dirty tactics will not work. Stick to the issue at hand and resolve that before you throw eveything in, including the kitchen sink.
Like an Greek origin from Kos I thinks Athens manipulated so much Greek history and society also.To Skopjani ,please wait Athens to wrote new history again and peoples in Greece to understand the reality.Somebody must to pay in Athens for it.
An answer to the previous commentator: Who is so crazy to abandon his/her own property voluntarily? You are twisting the facts. You have mentioned the squatter's laws???? According to the EU legislation, no one can take anyone's property without the wrightful court decision - . And whether you like it or not, this fact will definetely be confirmed sooner or later, when thousands of Aegeans who were ruthlessly driven away from your country will press charges in Strasbourg.
The Greeks who were also driven away, could return becuase according to your racial Constitution only Greeks by gene can be Greek citizens.And we both know that the Slavic Macedonians i.e. the Aegeans are not Greek by gene.
What's an Aegean? Are they busy now inventing yet another ethnic group that never before existed?
B92 does itself a huge disservice by making historical claims without any support or evidence whatsoever. For instance, did Greece exile the children and send them north of the border during WW2? This is what B92 claims. But that's false.
Read your history. After the Civil War, the communist party aducted both Greek and Slav children and took them north of the border. Was land left behind? Undoubtedly. But the lands abandoned do not automatically revert to former owners, especially due to squatter's laws. if you abandon property, you relinquish your right to it. Unless the state forcibly removes you. In the USA, my house can be taken from me if I refuse to mow the lawn. Those homes were lost long ago, abandoned.
But now the world hears about how Aegeans were forcibly removed from the land.
What's an Aegean? Are they busy now inventing yet another ethnic group that never before existed?
B92 does itself a huge disservice by making historical claims without any support or evidence whatsoever. For instance, did Greece exile the children and send them north of the border during WW2? This is what B92 claims. But that's false.
Read your history. After the Civil War, the communist party aducted both Greek and Slav children and took them north of the border. Was land left behind? Undoubtedly. But the lands abandoned do not automatically revert to former owners, especially due to squatter's laws. if you abandon property, you relinquish your right to it. Unless the state forcibly removes you. In the USA, my house can be taken from me if I refuse to mow the lawn. Those homes were lost long ago, abandoned.
But now the world hears about how Aegeans were forcibly removed from the land.
@2
You are making some assumptions that lead you to false conclusions.
Obviously you dont know some details that change the whole issue.
1. Either on their own or by force, those people left their properties and went away. There are court decisions though that either confiscate those properties or give them to others based on the (i dont know the legal term) right of use or something like that.
2. The supposedly "racist" Greek laws are not at all "racist" especially on this issue. Why? Because those that were taken away as children in today's Fyrom, where brainwashed that much, that their Fyromian passports write: Ethnicity "Macedonian", Born "lerin, macedonia" for example. Now since Greece doesnt recognise (rightfully) any kind of fake ethnicity called "macedonian" and even more for a Greek citizen, and because there is no such place in Greece called "lerin, macedonia", to allow those people to enter the country would be illegal in the first place.
If those people change their passport and say for example: Born "Florina, Greece" things would be much more different. But because of their brainwashing and the racist Fyromian propaganda and nationalistic irredendist aspirations, they keep using that as a means for pressure and an indirect "proof" of the existence of a supposed "macedonian" ethnicity, not only in Greece but in Fyrom also.
The case is clear. Whoever feels that wants their properties back, the courts are there, waiting. Go ahead and try it. With or without goverment cover, which is the most ridiculus of all.
These so called "aegeans" were kicked out of greece for helping Tito and the Greek communists in an attempt to turn greece behind the Iron curtain. Tito wanted into the Aegean and used/brainwashed the skopiani in an attempt to help him achieve this. These "Agean Macedonians" in turn murdered, tortured and stole. And they should be rewarded for this??? Not only should they not be allowed to step foot on greek soil, but the Greek gov't should never have allowed the communist Greeks back in when they did.
@10
All that to just say nothing at the end. If as you claim, that Greek intellectual has said that we are going to lose the case, then why dont you?
Please take it to the courts. Karamanlis already challenged you months ago. So, go ahead. I cant understnd the delay since it is known fact that you fyromian Slavs have been working on it for several years now :)
An answer to the previous commentator: Who is so crazy to abandon his/her own property voluntarily? You are twisting the facts. You have mentioned the squatter's laws???? According to the EU legislation, no one can take anyone's property without the wrightful court decision - . And whether you like it or not, this fact will definetely be confirmed sooner or later, when thousands of Aegeans who were ruthlessly driven away from your country will press charges in Strasbourg.
The Greeks who were also driven away, could return becuase according to your racial Constitution only Greeks by gene can be Greek citizens.And we both know that the Slavic Macedonians i.e. the Aegeans are not Greek by gene.
OMG, now Mr. Gruevski is throwing everything into the mix. The dispute is the name issue so why are you not concentrating on getting this resolved before you start with everything else?
The only reason this is being thrown into the mix is to make the whole issue so complicated in the hope that the international community will take focus off the name issue.
Dirty tactics will not work. Stick to the issue at hand and resolve that before you throw eveything in, including the kitchen sink.
Its time the greek nation came to terms with its treatment of Macedonian people, ethnic cleansing, cultural ethnocide. Greek treatment of Macedonians was worse than 500 years of ottoman rule!
THERE ARE NO 'ETHNIC MACEDONIANS'!!!
This is a post 1944 invention.
It is mad, just because you rename an area Macedonia in 1944, you do not also create an ethnicity???
Gruevsky and his sad nationalist cabinet must step down and out of power as soon as possible...
Greek intellectuals and Professors have warned their Government as recently as last week to rethink their policy of not allowing Aegean Macedonians to visit Greece and in particular to rethink their policty regarding confiscated properties. Panteeion University Professor Alexis Heraclidis calls Greek Government expulsion of Macedonians "black history" and the worst thing Greece has ever done.
"You can't just take someone's house and evict them forever. This was done without any Court proceedings. People were simply rounded up and kicked out from their homes, later not allowed to return." says Heraclidis.
He further explains that the present Greek Government should stop the mass hysteria because it is not helpful in resolving any open questions, adding Greece is the one who has ratted itself out, as the one who panics is always the one at fault.
Professor Heraclidis says presently the Government has zero chance to win any court case Macedonians would bring about, adding after everything is said and done, Greece will be labeled as a black sheep in Europe, apart from being forced to pay a settlement that would fetch easily into the billions.
Heraclidis isn't alone in his opinion re: Macedonia and Greece. More Greek intellectuals have said Greece cant hide from its past, rather should quickly fix things before the case gets to Court, because then it would be too late.
Greek Government isn't commenting the views of Greek intellectuals, while local media viewed the Macedonian Parliament Resolution as another "provocation".
Hey Peggy; do I not recall you making heartfelt comments in defense of the injustices against Serbia? You cannot cry for injustice then SUPPORT IT in your "Greece"/ Macedonia comments!
IF YOU EXPECT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, THEN EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE REAL HISTORY OF THE REGION!
BTW If Aegean Macedonians didn't exist, how could the coming lawsuits take root? The Macedonian Government, along with the assistance of the Turkish archives, where all relevent documents are kept re: Balkan history during the Ottoman period, are collating all the necessary material for the coming lawsuits! Wow, really "brainwashed" huh...?
Finally, gratitude and thanks to b92 on behalf of all MACEDONIANS everywhere for not bowing to the Greek xenophobia!! Bravo! ( I am referring to your references to us as that which we are, and always have been; MACEDONIANS! Thanx for the RESPECT!
tHOSE WHO DO NOT RESPECT THEIR NEIGHBOUR, have no respect for THEMSELVES!
Like an Greek origin from Kos I thinks Athens manipulated so much Greek history and society also.To Skopjani ,please wait Athens to wrote new history again and peoples in Greece to understand the reality.Somebody must to pay in Athens for it.
What's an Aegean? Are they busy now inventing yet another ethnic group that never before existed?
B92 does itself a huge disservice by making historical claims without any support or evidence whatsoever. For instance, did Greece exile the children and send them north of the border during WW2? This is what B92 claims. But that's false.
Read your history. After the Civil War, the communist party aducted both Greek and Slav children and took them north of the border. Was land left behind? Undoubtedly. But the lands abandoned do not automatically revert to former owners, especially due to squatter's laws. if you abandon property, you relinquish your right to it. Unless the state forcibly removes you. In the USA, my house can be taken from me if I refuse to mow the lawn. Those homes were lost long ago, abandoned.
But now the world hears about how Aegeans were forcibly removed from the land.
An answer to the previous commentator: Who is so crazy to abandon his/her own property voluntarily? You are twisting the facts. You have mentioned the squatter's laws???? According to the EU legislation, no one can take anyone's property without the wrightful court decision - . And whether you like it or not, this fact will definetely be confirmed sooner or later, when thousands of Aegeans who were ruthlessly driven away from your country will press charges in Strasbourg.
The Greeks who were also driven away, could return becuase according to your racial Constitution only Greeks by gene can be Greek citizens.And we both know that the Slavic Macedonians i.e. the Aegeans are not Greek by gene.
Greek intellectuals and Professors have warned their Government as recently as last week to rethink their policy of not allowing Aegean Macedonians to visit Greece and in particular to rethink their policty regarding confiscated properties. Panteeion University Professor Alexis Heraclidis calls Greek Government expulsion of Macedonians "black history" and the worst thing Greece has ever done.
"You can't just take someone's house and evict them forever. This was done without any Court proceedings. People were simply rounded up and kicked out from their homes, later not allowed to return." says Heraclidis.
He further explains that the present Greek Government should stop the mass hysteria because it is not helpful in resolving any open questions, adding Greece is the one who has ratted itself out, as the one who panics is always the one at fault.
Professor Heraclidis says presently the Government has zero chance to win any court case Macedonians would bring about, adding after everything is said and done, Greece will be labeled as a black sheep in Europe, apart from being forced to pay a settlement that would fetch easily into the billions.
Heraclidis isn't alone in his opinion re: Macedonia and Greece. More Greek intellectuals have said Greece cant hide from its past, rather should quickly fix things before the case gets to Court, because then it would be too late.
Greek Government isn't commenting the views of Greek intellectuals, while local media viewed the Macedonian Parliament Resolution as another "provocation".
These so called "aegeans" were kicked out of greece for helping Tito and the Greek communists in an attempt to turn greece behind the Iron curtain. Tito wanted into the Aegean and used/brainwashed the skopiani in an attempt to help him achieve this. These "Agean Macedonians" in turn murdered, tortured and stole. And they should be rewarded for this??? Not only should they not be allowed to step foot on greek soil, but the Greek gov't should never have allowed the communist Greeks back in when they did.
Like an Greek origin from Kos I thinks Athens manipulated so much Greek history and society also.To Skopjani ,please wait Athens to wrote new history again and peoples in Greece to understand the reality.Somebody must to pay in Athens for it.
OMG, now Mr. Gruevski is throwing everything into the mix. The dispute is the name issue so why are you not concentrating on getting this resolved before you start with everything else?
The only reason this is being thrown into the mix is to make the whole issue so complicated in the hope that the international community will take focus off the name issue.
Dirty tactics will not work. Stick to the issue at hand and resolve that before you throw eveything in, including the kitchen sink.
Its time the greek nation came to terms with its treatment of Macedonian people, ethnic cleansing, cultural ethnocide. Greek treatment of Macedonians was worse than 500 years of ottoman rule!
@2
You are making some assumptions that lead you to false conclusions.
Obviously you dont know some details that change the whole issue.
1. Either on their own or by force, those people left their properties and went away. There are court decisions though that either confiscate those properties or give them to others based on the (i dont know the legal term) right of use or something like that.
2. The supposedly "racist" Greek laws are not at all "racist" especially on this issue. Why? Because those that were taken away as children in today's Fyrom, where brainwashed that much, that their Fyromian passports write: Ethnicity "Macedonian", Born "lerin, macedonia" for example. Now since Greece doesnt recognise (rightfully) any kind of fake ethnicity called "macedonian" and even more for a Greek citizen, and because there is no such place in Greece called "lerin, macedonia", to allow those people to enter the country would be illegal in the first place.
If those people change their passport and say for example: Born "Florina, Greece" things would be much more different. But because of their brainwashing and the racist Fyromian propaganda and nationalistic irredendist aspirations, they keep using that as a means for pressure and an indirect "proof" of the existence of a supposed "macedonian" ethnicity, not only in Greece but in Fyrom also.
The case is clear. Whoever feels that wants their properties back, the courts are there, waiting. Go ahead and try it. With or without goverment cover, which is the most ridiculus of all.
THERE ARE NO 'ETHNIC MACEDONIANS'!!!
This is a post 1944 invention.
It is mad, just because you rename an area Macedonia in 1944, you do not also create an ethnicity???
Gruevsky and his sad nationalist cabinet must step down and out of power as soon as possible...
Hey Peggy; do I not recall you making heartfelt comments in defense of the injustices against Serbia? You cannot cry for injustice then SUPPORT IT in your "Greece"/ Macedonia comments!
IF YOU EXPECT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, THEN EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE REAL HISTORY OF THE REGION!
BTW If Aegean Macedonians didn't exist, how could the coming lawsuits take root? The Macedonian Government, along with the assistance of the Turkish archives, where all relevent documents are kept re: Balkan history during the Ottoman period, are collating all the necessary material for the coming lawsuits! Wow, really "brainwashed" huh...?
Finally, gratitude and thanks to b92 on behalf of all MACEDONIANS everywhere for not bowing to the Greek xenophobia!! Bravo! ( I am referring to your references to us as that which we are, and always have been; MACEDONIANS! Thanx for the RESPECT!
tHOSE WHO DO NOT RESPECT THEIR NEIGHBOUR, have no respect for THEMSELVES!
@10
All that to just say nothing at the end. If as you claim, that Greek intellectual has said that we are going to lose the case, then why dont you?
Please take it to the courts. Karamanlis already challenged you months ago. So, go ahead. I cant understnd the delay since it is known fact that you fyromian Slavs have been working on it for several years now :)
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