Officers, reporters hurt in clashes with hooligans

Let's hope for a huge and peaceful rally. Karadzic was the leader of Bosnian Serbs in a civil war. What people need to realize is that by sending him to the Hague, which is a political kangaroo court that has nothing to do with justice, Tadic is in fact telling the world that all Serbs are guilty. It is shameful and treasonous. Well, not in my name.
I am sure taht bganon will come on here and tell us there were only 'a couple of hundred people' at the rally, spreading more DS propoganda.

bganon also said 'Apart from the loud cetnik music the square is deserted at the moment, but shop owners look nervous.'
Enlighten me bganon, what exactly is 'Cetnik music'? You seem to have something against Cetniks and use them almost as a dirty word.
Let me remind you that Draza Mihajlovic was awarded, by your beloved Americans, the 'Legion of Merit'. It is the highest award that can be given to a non-American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEa_Mihailovi%C4%87
The execution of Mihajlovic by the commies is the reason Charles DeGaulle never visited Yugoslavia.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:TD4y9XiRYCwJ:alexanderklaricstudios.com/draza.html+draza+mihajlovic+charles+degaulle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca
Perhaps you prefer Tito as a leader - a man who did everything in his power to ruin Serbia, and many stupid naive Serbs still admire him.
Just like Mihajlovic was a good man, so is Radovan Karadzic. He was a man defending his people from muslims and croats in a civil war - the very same muslims and croats who are guilty of genocide against the Serbian population in WWII. History will prove this, no matter what propoganda Tadic or his colonial masters try to shove down our throats by rewriting history.
Cheers!

ZK like in the Kosovo rally when the secret services were controlled by Bulatovic and Jocic? Yeah those agents did a sterling job of encouraging hooligans to smash and steal.
Those particular loyal Serbians, loyal to their wallets more like.

Actually Dragan I already wrote that I won't attend the protest so I won't be able to say how many people attended this time. That is due to the fact that the event will be held later in the evening, when it gets dark, hmmm...

If you don't know any cetnik songs then I suggest you ask a family member who will enlighten you, but frankly I am surprised to know that such a self proclaimed patriot as yourself does not know any. And sorry to disappoint you but Americans are not beloved in my book. I would try them for alleged war crimes just as I'd try anybody for suspected war crimes.

As for Radovan Karadzic being a good man, save it for somebody who likes fairy tales. At the very best he was a very misguided thief with delusions of grandeur, at worst he was a war criminal guilty of the death of hundreds of innocent civilians.

I don't proclaim the man guilty or not guilty as you do. I'd rather see the man tried in Serbia, sadly that isn't an option. That is because Serbian politicians never pressed the issue. And that is because people like you don't really support finding out whether people like Karadzic are guilty or not, do you?

Lets hope the police do their duty this time around and stop DS agents breaking shop windows, causing trouble and blaming it on loyal Serbians.

Raso, bganon is right. Last time people of the same background protested in Belgrade, a life was lost and there was a lot of damage done to private property. So, what are the shop owners supposed to do, seal everything up just like expecting a tornado to go through their shop, c’mon. Mate, why are they not protesting in RS?

Yet, why do people have to protest for the arrest of “Bin Laden of Balkan”, the man that has held Serbia hostage for more than a decade, instead they should celebrate. While he was moving freely and living a prefect life in Belgrade, poeple in Serbia had to take the consequnes of his freedom.

DON'T PROTEST, CELEBRATE

Nik,

Bosnia was a civil war between secessionists (i.e. Croats and Muslims) and those who resisted Bosnia's secession from Yugoslavia (i.e. the Bosnian-Serbs).

The Bosnian Serbs had every right to breakaway from Bosnia and re-join what was left of Yugoslavia. I suppose that an intellectually dishonest person would call that an "aggression" for "greater Serbia".

Then again, West Virginia broke away from Confederate Virginia and re-joined the United States during the American civil war. I suppose one could also characterize that as an "American aggression against Virginia" in the pursuit of Abraham Lincoln's genocidal quest for a "Greater America".

Radovan Karadzic wasn't fighting for a Serb republic devoid of Muslims and Croats. There were Muslims and Croats fighting in the ranks of the VRS and Karadzic had a military alliance with Fikret Abdic in Western Bosnia.

To be sure there were instances of ethnic cleansing, but that happened on both sides. It happens, without exception, in every war that has ever been fought in human history. It is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

Bosnia was nothing unique in the history of warfare. To characterize it as something genocidal like Hitler's Holocaust against the Jews is absurd and grossly dishonest. Bosnia was absolutely nothing like the 2nd World War. When the United States fire bombed Tokyo on the night of March 9-10, 1945 it killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in one night of bombing alone -- that is as many people as died on all three sides of the *ENTIRE* Bosnian war civilians and soldiers combined.

If Bosnia was a genocide, then every war that has ever been fought is a genocide too.

Karadzic was fighting to break away from secessionist Bosnia and re-join what was left of Yugoslavia --- and he had every right to do that. The Serbs had just as much of a right to stay together in Yugoslavia as the Croats and the Muslims had to leave it.

yeah bganon, because nobody will come, tadic left the city for several days.

or the never seen action in belgrade assembly, where the majority (!!!!!) postponed the session, because of fear from the people (as every dictatorship that tricked the electorate and majority is afraid).

give us a break with your ds-propaganda

Dear zk uk,

You ask what the '100' or so football hooligans were doing at the demonstration. I would have thought that its fairly obvious, but i'll try explaining it to you.
These people (of whom there was a good deal more than 100 if you bothered to watch the tv coverage) don't care about politics, football, karadzic, Serbia or Bosnia. They get their kicks from a 'good fight' and acts of vandalism. After all the inflammatory talk about Tadic going the same way as Dzindic, RTS becoming another Bastille, and the protest not finishing till th government gave in, these hooligans simply thought that this demonstration was the perfect place to be to enjoy an orgy of violence. They probably even thought they'd be considered Serbian heroes to boot!
Anyway, this must be a devastating blow for SRS-NS-DSS. A very poor turnout and the demo ended in a live TV display of hooliganism and vandalism. Is this the beginning of the end of SRS?

ZK, there you go again with your conspiracy theories again.

Like Mike, I too am an American who is also a proud Serbo-phile, but am deeply mystified by the people who are supporting Karadžić. It is incredibly unnerving that people are actively supporting this man, a coward who has let his own people suffer for 15 years for his own selfish purposes. It's crystal clear that the Radicals are using Karadžić as a political pawn to threaten Tadić and the administration because things did not go their way in the last election. And Vučić wants to become the mayor of Belgrade? One can only imagine what type of behavior he would be encouraging his supporters to participate in if he comes to power.

And to head off ZK at the pass, yes, I'm ashamed of my government and will be actively working to send the Bush administration to the Hague.

Kudos bganon for your thoughts and responses. I attended the Kosovo Rally back in February when I was in BG and was happy to do so, but were I there now, I would most definitely not attend this one. Not on account of me being American or anything, but that I have no desire to be in the same spot as people like Vucic or Ilic, or anyone stupid enough to call the Tadic government a dictatorship. I'm a proud Serbo-phile, but I have no love people people like Karadzic, and even less love for the people who choose to use this event as a lightening rod for their own anger, much less use the Cetnik name as a blanket excuse for murder. Mihailovic would be revolted to stand next to some of these people.

Dragan, you say, "Let's hope for a huge and peaceful rally." Oops, turned out to be small with violence. Tadic, by sending Dr. Dabic to the Hague, Tadic was not telling the world that "all Serbs are guilty", as you say, but the opposite, that Serbs renounce the war criminals in our midst. Comparing Mihajlovic to Karadzic is a real treacherous comparison for Mihajlovic. And how does executing 8,000 unarmed Muslims in Srebrenica serve to "defend" Serbs. Since virtually all of those Muslim victims were born after World War II, how could they be the same Muslims guilty of genocide against Serbs in WWII? Really, Dragan, get real.

Judging by the size of the stage (it is absolutely huge) they are not expecting so many at the square today. And that giant stage means that many long speeches from politicians will be heard. Apart from the loud cetnik music the square is deserted at the moment, but shop owners look nervous.

Last time they found that putting up Kosovo is Serbia signs in their windows did not stop they shops being smashed up or looted, so I don't blame them for being worried.

But I don't plan to watch this evenings events and I hope that law abiding participants enjoy their day out and that the criminal element are dealt with accordingly.

“The aim of the Serbian rebels lead by Karadzic was to carve a big chunk of Bosnia and to turn it into a "Muslim free" and "Croat free" land. There is nothing civil in this attempt.”

The Bosnian Moslem’s aim was to create an Islamic nation and once the war started they cleaned out all the Serbs from their territories turning them into “Serb free” land and the Croats did the same, so what makes them morally superior to the Serbs? And that was not the first time Croats and Moslems tried to create “Serb free” land either.

In America we have a saying: “Democracy is simply two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for supper”. Fortunately in Bosnia the “sheep” was very well armed and had excellent leadership in Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic.

Loyal to their wallets? It seems the going rate to buy this so called government is $5 million, which as far as I'm concerned if fairly cheap for a whole country. It's the DS/SPS that have fat wallets and it's a shame the whole country must now pay with obedience!

Fortunately - we have loyal Serbians who are prepared to stand up and say no! They are the very people attending this demonstration, while they still can as I expect this dictatorship to ban them at some stage.

As for Karadzic, he defended the Serbian people and should never be handed over to the NATO court. In war situations, he did nothing out of the norm so why would anyone ever want to defend Serbia again if we feed them to the lions?

The complete destruction of Serbian pride and slavery seems to be the agenda here and the people simply will not allow it. I have faith and I can see momentum slowly building now.

ohh, nearly 0,2 percent of the Serbian population was at the all All-Serb-rally. really impressing!

To ZK UK,
if you are proud Serbian then come to Serbia and be with your people today, tomorrow and forever. I'm trying to understand you and other people living abroad who dislike European standards and their way of life, but still continue to take advantage of "bad" life in Europe or US, Canada..

Well, I'd rather have been wrong, but it seems that this lot have no other agenda apart from causing trouble.

I think the police acted with restraint, perhaps too much restraint.

The hooligans / far right groups, have thus far been the ones keeping the numbers up at these rallies. They form a hardcore of 150-200. Anybody who has seen the protests knows this. That is even if Vucic pretended not to know when he had a rock thrown at him last night. Rather than making him look like he opposed the violence, it instead made him and SRS look powerless, not the image he wants to present to his supporters and the electorate.

In short last nights protest was damaging mostly to the radicals but also to DSS and NS which supported the protests. At best these parties now look out of touch as they appeared not to realise what was going on. At worst they look complicit.

ZK you stated that these people were DS agents, now you shifted position concedeing they may be hooligans or football fans (what I have been saying all along). You claimed some conspiracy with the attacker of the B92 cameraman, now he has been caught and revealed as just another hooligan.

Sorry mate but your credibility is hovering around the zero mark. Its time to start considering that your viewpoint may be completely wrong.

This falling back on ethnic group is indicative of somebody who has no argument. The issue is the most important thing here, not the backgrounds of participants in this discussion.

I'd also like to get something clear. This rabble was responsible for the destruction of Belgrade's mosque, this rabble was responsible for the violence and looting after the Kosovo protest, this rabble was responsible for the attack on the gay protest a few years ago.

Its simply time to crack down on these thugs. I may be a moderate, but its time to show these people in no uncertain terms that the rule of law will be enforced.

This protest turned into disaster again. Can't people just protest peacefully? The attackers were well organised and seems all was planned.

It is high time to forbid protests since they don't behave as civilized people and don't know how to express thier protest.

What we saw last night was the last demonstrations of so called "radicals"!!!
New Government had control over hooligans!
New Government,showed to everyone that they mean business,they will put Serbia where it belongs,together with the rest of EU family!
Even though it was sad to see that there are still people in Serbia that support nationalism,the number was much smaller,you could se that true Serbian People had enough and they want to think about their future in Europe,they want a better life!!!
I congratulate Mr.Tadic for choosing the right path in these difficult times,I would like if he could understand the situation in Kosovo and eventually except what is the best for Serbs in Kosovo!!!
Gezuar and Ziveli!!!

Anybody remebers Rodney King riots in LA. I am afraid this wll happened today in belgrade, but than again I may be wrong. Time will tell.

Come on ZK if you can't get even the most basic facts right, it shows that your political beliefs are made from mistaken assumptions.

Firstly jumping ahead to ten years is a bit of a leap seeing as we are only 8 and a half at the moment. Secondly you seem to have forgotten about 3 years - that is the period when DSS ruled with their allies G17 in the 2004 government. Actually its Vojislav Kostunica that has been the constant factor in Serbian politics since 2000.

Remember I was actually at the Kosovo protests, watching the US embassy burn, so don't tell me something you have no clue about. The police deliberately withdrew that time. The police did not have to deal with tens of thousands of law abiding protestors then. They had to deal with hooligans as they did last night - except they were ordered to retreat and to let hooligans loot and destroy. That did not happen last night and nobody was seriously hurt or killed.

By the way a handful is about 5 or so. Last night there were hundreds of hooligans on the rampage.

Congrats though, you've really shown us here the degree to which you are willing to make up scenario's to justify your opinions - with not a shred of evidence.

Some one hundred hooligans, likely football fans, attacked the police, breaking several shop windows and throwing stones and lit flares at riot police officers.
--
So what do these people have to do with the demonstrations? They are not part of it and obviously went out looking for trouble. Also, what on earth does being a football fan have have to do with anything? You are probably describing 90% of Serbian youth!

I'd say they are most likely bored Otpor members who are well known for their destruction and disobedience. Didn't they burn a few government buildings not too long ago?

Anyway bganon, why don't you reveal your background? I have no problem whatsoever revealing that I am a proud Serbian. I have never met a proud person to do otherwise.

Dragan :"Karadzic was the leader of Bosnian Serbs in a civil war."

There is a contradiction in terms in what you are saying. "Bosnian Serbs" and "civil war". Am ethnic conflict is not be civil war!
A civil war is a conflict between different rules or different the political systems. Every citizen has to make a choice which side to take! Civil wars were those in Russia, Spain, to a lesser extend the USA.
Civi wars were the fights between the chetniks and the partizans in Serbia, the Ustasha and the partizans in Croatia during WWII.
The aim of the Serbian rebels lead by Karadzic was to carve a big chunk of Bosnia and to turn it into a "Muslim free" and "Croat free" land. There is nothing civil in this attempt. The desire of the majority of the Bosnian Croats and Muslims for Bosnia, independent from the crumbling "Yugoslavia" could not be counted as a fact mitigating Karadzic's guilt!

today's prostest in Belgrade has shown, that the right wing is running out of power. their arguments are not supported by the masses - as SRS and DS thought - the masses stay away from such manifestations. 0,2 percent of the Serbian population were there today, this is a clear defeat for SRS and their supporters - and it is a poor farewell for Karadzic.

ZK I see, so you are saying that the police controlled by Jocic and Nikitovic were to blame for the largest outburst of violence and hooliganism after the Kosovo protests?

In your own words 'sounds to me like they are allowing it'. In your own words 'time to crack down on these thugs long ago'... 'Political spin' by DSS controlled police ministry and secret services... 'they are being used as rent-a-mob'... at the Kosovo protest.

Now tell me if I were to go back to see what you were saying about the aftermath of the Kosovo protest, whether you have just done a complete about turn?

You can't keep chopping and changing. At least try to be consistent on principle, not on your portrayal of one political option being saints and the other evil, which is obviously wrong.

We all know that only the right wing takes part in beating up gays at protests. In the UK its the national front, in Serbia its Obraz and their hooligan supporters. In fact I don't know of any left group that has ever taken part in anti gay activity. Besides what I said was that these are the same people, literally.

You should know how to spell Palma by now ZK. And he is more your hero than mine, at least he used to be.

I read at Blic that the hooligans who attacked the police were Grobari (Partizan supporters). It doesn't take much imagination to beleive they were bought by the government to start a fight and interrupt the peaceful demonstration. This kind of thing has happened before, and seems strangely frequent in Serbia.

"...it seems they are constantly being used as a rent-a-mob by the DS and Western backed media to discredit certain political parties"

ZK, how do you expect to be taken seriously with that kind of statement?

Why not use Occam's razor instead and go for the simple explanation - that the leaders and officials of these "certain political parties" have been publicly ranting, raving and dropping innuendoes in such a way as to attract would be thugs who enjoy violence for its own sake? They are simply reaping what they have sown. I think Kostunica realised this, he was there at the sowing, but noticably absent at the reaping!

bganon,

ZK has consistently shown that he doesn't really care about facts. Even video of last night's riots is biased (how, I'm not sure). He doesn't live in Serbia, has not seen the situation on the ground, and has no real concern for anyone there aside from trying to look patriotic from abroad.

Of course, that won't stop him from calling into question the patriotism of everyone who doesn't follow his logic.

I am incredibly glad someone like you lives in Serbia and can give us accurate and honest reports about what's going on there. It would be great if you could find yourself involved more and more in the politics there.

Let me ask a (rhetorical) question: what do people expect will happen, will follow, when the radicals bus in their "allies" from all over serbia and RS, incl those "nice" football hooligans, to have a "demonstration"? will it be a love-in? will they be playing tiddly winks? no, it will be yet another ugly and violent manifestation of hatred and force by the very same forces (w/a few different faces due to various assassinations and imprisonments) that brought us all of those fun times in the 90s. yes, the radical nationalists -- remember them? how they "defended" serbs everywhere? anyway, it is a truly sickening spectacle!

and more press as "collateral damage"... i know that it is hopeless for me to communicate with the extremists, but i would very much like the moderate or "progressive" serbs to condemn these acts of violence and ugliness, clearly and without hesitation. not just chit-chatting about it. there was way too much chit chat (and i include us in the US as well) as sarajevo was starving under siege, as the srebrenica genocide was taking place, and on and on.

yes, there are bits and pieces of progress and i commend that -- but most of the court cases inside serbia concerning crimes against albanians, esp. individual cases, have taken place directly because of the unending pressure of people like natasa kandic, and her colleagues. otherwise, we would never see such "justice."

again, i condemn all acts of violence against individuals of ALL ethnicities, and particularly against press people. journalists need and deserve protection. get it together, people!

thank you.

robert-0,frisco
robertoruss@yahoo.com

On 29 July 2008 22:00, ZK UK wrote:"

"The complete destruction of Serbian pride and slavery seems to be the agenda here and the people simply will not allow it."

Wasn't it the same ZK UK that posted some biblical saying about how the wide and easy path lead to destruction, deceit and doom, and the narrow path lead to salvation and freedom?

It seems to me, if someone is going to lead "the people", this huge mass of unidentified people, then the only place they can go is through that wide and open path...

Football fans, you say? Who was playing?

I am prooud of the heroic Serbs (although no many left in Serbia) for standing up for their nation. Cheers to the heroic Serbs!
God Bless Serbia and all of its population!

KOSOVO IS SERBIAN
MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN

Maybe the Tadic government isn't a dictatorship, but it's definitely undemocratic. The DS isn't in power because that was the will of the Serbian voters. The DS is in power because the SPS actively deceived its voters. Nobody who voted for the SPS did so with the expectation that they would form a coalition with Tadic and arrest Radovan Karadzic.

Essentially, the SPS defrauded its voters and the seats that it won through that fraud are the difference that put Tadic and the DS in power. It's really hard to call that democracy.

I am one of the ... kind of "shopkeepers" more-less, or at least close enough.
Being a coward and having a car with very-very "wrong" license plates and country code I just stay in BP for these days. Sorry guys. But I promise, for the week of October 26 anniversary of Hungarian 1956 we will firmly stay in BG.

I have no mood to meet the Hungarian radicals or their Serb "colleagues".

And to head off ZK at the pass, yes, I'm ashamed of my government and will be actively working to send the Bush administration to the Hague.
(Tread, 30 July 2008 00:51)
--
So what are you doing here Tread? Sounds to me like you have a difficult battle ahead attempting to put Bush before the Hague, which will be closed within 2 years.

bganon, the time to crack down on those thugs was a very very long time ago but it seems they are constantly being used as a rent-a-mob by the DS and Western backed media to discredit certain political parties.

In the words of B92, one of their cameramen gets attacked brutally within 5 metres of police and they do absolutely nothing! Sounds to me like they are allowing it otherwise we couldn't have an SRS protest without violence right? It just wouldn't fit into the image the Western backed media and politicians like to portray.

So the cameraman assailant was caught, no surprises there - but there are still many unanswered questions. Why didn't the police do anything when the cameraman was brutally attacked within 5 meters of them? What was the ID/Badge he was wearing? I do expect it to fade away now and those important questions to be swept under the carpet.

Homophobic people are not tied to any political party bganon. Palmer is now your hero and a part of this wonderful new government though he himself is a self confessed homophobe - but that's acceptable now that he helped build Frankenstein, right?

It's all political spin and violence is simply part of it. I was at the anti-Iraq protest in London where over a million turned up. It was full of all sorts of people and the thug type included. However, the difference being that the police kept a very close eye on them and intervened when necessary to stop matters getting out of control. Quite simple really!

bganon, the DS have been part of the government for the past 10 years and nothing has changed. Now that the DSS are out, the violence still continues.

However, the pattern continues to remain the same. Tadic leaves Belgrade or Serbia and all of a sudden, we have violence on the streets that are always linked (by Western back media) to loyal Serbian protests.

You only need a few agent provocateurs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur to make it happen and I suspect Tadic has a few on his payroll. But it does work better when the police play their role also.

There were hundreds of thousands at the Kosovo protests and the police said they were stretched but what's the excuse for last night where tens of thousands attended? Judging by the video, it seems those handful of thugs were allowed to run free. It could have simply been contained but that wouldn't bring home the pictures now would it?

how come?

i thought tadics UDBA will protect his controlled "media" and film everybody?

ha ha

serbia can be proud of it´s youth !!!!

Anybody remebers Rodney King riots in LA. I am afraid this wll happened today in belgrade, but than again I may be wrong. Time will tell.

Judging by the size of the stage (it is absolutely huge) they are not expecting so many at the square today. And that giant stage means that many long speeches from politicians will be heard. Apart from the loud cetnik music the square is deserted at the moment, but shop owners look nervous.

Last time they found that putting up Kosovo is Serbia signs in their windows did not stop they shops being smashed up or looted, so I don't blame them for being worried.

But I don't plan to watch this evenings events and I hope that law abiding participants enjoy their day out and that the criminal element are dealt with accordingly.

Raso, bganon is right. Last time people of the same background protested in Belgrade, a life was lost and there was a lot of damage done to private property. So, what are the shop owners supposed to do, seal everything up just like expecting a tornado to go through their shop, c’mon. Mate, why are they not protesting in RS?

Yet, why do people have to protest for the arrest of “Bin Laden of Balkan”, the man that has held Serbia hostage for more than a decade, instead they should celebrate. While he was moving freely and living a prefect life in Belgrade, poeple in Serbia had to take the consequnes of his freedom.

DON'T PROTEST, CELEBRATE

Dragan :"Karadzic was the leader of Bosnian Serbs in a civil war."

There is a contradiction in terms in what you are saying. "Bosnian Serbs" and "civil war". Am ethnic conflict is not be civil war!
A civil war is a conflict between different rules or different the political systems. Every citizen has to make a choice which side to take! Civil wars were those in Russia, Spain, to a lesser extend the USA.
Civi wars were the fights between the chetniks and the partizans in Serbia, the Ustasha and the partizans in Croatia during WWII.
The aim of the Serbian rebels lead by Karadzic was to carve a big chunk of Bosnia and to turn it into a "Muslim free" and "Croat free" land. There is nothing civil in this attempt. The desire of the majority of the Bosnian Croats and Muslims for Bosnia, independent from the crumbling "Yugoslavia" could not be counted as a fact mitigating Karadzic's guilt!

ohh, nearly 0,2 percent of the Serbian population was at the all All-Serb-rally. really impressing!

ZK like in the Kosovo rally when the secret services were controlled by Bulatovic and Jocic? Yeah those agents did a sterling job of encouraging hooligans to smash and steal.
Those particular loyal Serbians, loyal to their wallets more like.

Actually Dragan I already wrote that I won't attend the protest so I won't be able to say how many people attended this time. That is due to the fact that the event will be held later in the evening, when it gets dark, hmmm...

If you don't know any cetnik songs then I suggest you ask a family member who will enlighten you, but frankly I am surprised to know that such a self proclaimed patriot as yourself does not know any. And sorry to disappoint you but Americans are not beloved in my book. I would try them for alleged war crimes just as I'd try anybody for suspected war crimes.

As for Radovan Karadzic being a good man, save it for somebody who likes fairy tales. At the very best he was a very misguided thief with delusions of grandeur, at worst he was a war criminal guilty of the death of hundreds of innocent civilians.

I don't proclaim the man guilty or not guilty as you do. I'd rather see the man tried in Serbia, sadly that isn't an option. That is because Serbian politicians never pressed the issue. And that is because people like you don't really support finding out whether people like Karadzic are guilty or not, do you?

Let's hope for a huge and peaceful rally. Karadzic was the leader of Bosnian Serbs in a civil war. What people need to realize is that by sending him to the Hague, which is a political kangaroo court that has nothing to do with justice, Tadic is in fact telling the world that all Serbs are guilty. It is shameful and treasonous. Well, not in my name.
I am sure taht bganon will come on here and tell us there were only 'a couple of hundred people' at the rally, spreading more DS propoganda.

bganon also said 'Apart from the loud cetnik music the square is deserted at the moment, but shop owners look nervous.'
Enlighten me bganon, what exactly is 'Cetnik music'? You seem to have something against Cetniks and use them almost as a dirty word.
Let me remind you that Draza Mihajlovic was awarded, by your beloved Americans, the 'Legion of Merit'. It is the highest award that can be given to a non-American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dra%C5%BEa_Mihailovi%C4%87
The execution of Mihajlovic by the commies is the reason Charles DeGaulle never visited Yugoslavia.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:TD4y9XiRYCwJ:alexanderklaricstudios.com/draza.html+draza+mihajlovic+charles+degaulle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca
Perhaps you prefer Tito as a leader - a man who did everything in his power to ruin Serbia, and many stupid naive Serbs still admire him.
Just like Mihajlovic was a good man, so is Radovan Karadzic. He was a man defending his people from muslims and croats in a civil war - the very same muslims and croats who are guilty of genocide against the Serbian population in WWII. History will prove this, no matter what propoganda Tadic or his colonial masters try to shove down our throats by rewriting history.
Cheers!

“The aim of the Serbian rebels lead by Karadzic was to carve a big chunk of Bosnia and to turn it into a "Muslim free" and "Croat free" land. There is nothing civil in this attempt.”

The Bosnian Moslem’s aim was to create an Islamic nation and once the war started they cleaned out all the Serbs from their territories turning them into “Serb free” land and the Croats did the same, so what makes them morally superior to the Serbs? And that was not the first time Croats and Moslems tried to create “Serb free” land either.

In America we have a saying: “Democracy is simply two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for supper”. Fortunately in Bosnia the “sheep” was very well armed and had excellent leadership in Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic.

Lets hope the police do their duty this time around and stop DS agents breaking shop windows, causing trouble and blaming it on loyal Serbians.

Nik,

Bosnia was a civil war between secessionists (i.e. Croats and Muslims) and those who resisted Bosnia's secession from Yugoslavia (i.e. the Bosnian-Serbs).

The Bosnian Serbs had every right to breakaway from Bosnia and re-join what was left of Yugoslavia. I suppose that an intellectually dishonest person would call that an "aggression" for "greater Serbia".

Then again, West Virginia broke away from Confederate Virginia and re-joined the United States during the American civil war. I suppose one could also characterize that as an "American aggression against Virginia" in the pursuit of Abraham Lincoln's genocidal quest for a "Greater America".

Radovan Karadzic wasn't fighting for a Serb republic devoid of Muslims and Croats. There were Muslims and Croats fighting in the ranks of the VRS and Karadzic had a military alliance with Fikret Abdic in Western Bosnia.

To be sure there were instances of ethnic cleansing, but that happened on both sides. It happens, without exception, in every war that has ever been fought in human history. It is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

Bosnia was nothing unique in the history of warfare. To characterize it as something genocidal like Hitler's Holocaust against the Jews is absurd and grossly dishonest. Bosnia was absolutely nothing like the 2nd World War. When the United States fire bombed Tokyo on the night of March 9-10, 1945 it killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in one night of bombing alone -- that is as many people as died on all three sides of the *ENTIRE* Bosnian war civilians and soldiers combined.

If Bosnia was a genocide, then every war that has ever been fought is a genocide too.

Karadzic was fighting to break away from secessionist Bosnia and re-join what was left of Yugoslavia --- and he had every right to do that. The Serbs had just as much of a right to stay together in Yugoslavia as the Croats and the Muslims had to leave it.

yeah bganon, because nobody will come, tadic left the city for several days.

or the never seen action in belgrade assembly, where the majority (!!!!!) postponed the session, because of fear from the people (as every dictatorship that tricked the electorate and majority is afraid).

give us a break with your ds-propaganda

Kudos bganon for your thoughts and responses. I attended the Kosovo Rally back in February when I was in BG and was happy to do so, but were I there now, I would most definitely not attend this one. Not on account of me being American or anything, but that I have no desire to be in the same spot as people like Vucic or Ilic, or anyone stupid enough to call the Tadic government a dictatorship. I'm a proud Serbo-phile, but I have no love people people like Karadzic, and even less love for the people who choose to use this event as a lightening rod for their own anger, much less use the Cetnik name as a blanket excuse for murder. Mihailovic would be revolted to stand next to some of these people.

Some one hundred hooligans, likely football fans, attacked the police, breaking several shop windows and throwing stones and lit flares at riot police officers.
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So what do these people have to do with the demonstrations? They are not part of it and obviously went out looking for trouble. Also, what on earth does being a football fan have have to do with anything? You are probably describing 90% of Serbian youth!

I'd say they are most likely bored Otpor members who are well known for their destruction and disobedience. Didn't they burn a few government buildings not too long ago?

Anyway bganon, why don't you reveal your background? I have no problem whatsoever revealing that I am a proud Serbian. I have never met a proud person to do otherwise.

What we saw last night was the last demonstrations of so called "radicals"!!!
New Government had control over hooligans!
New Government,showed to everyone that they mean business,they will put Serbia where it belongs,together with the rest of EU family!
Even though it was sad to see that there are still people in Serbia that support nationalism,the number was much smaller,you could se that true Serbian People had enough and they want to think about their future in Europe,they want a better life!!!
I congratulate Mr.Tadic for choosing the right path in these difficult times,I would like if he could understand the situation in Kosovo and eventually except what is the best for Serbs in Kosovo!!!
Gezuar and Ziveli!!!

I am prooud of the heroic Serbs (although no many left in Serbia) for standing up for their nation. Cheers to the heroic Serbs!
God Bless Serbia and all of its population!

KOSOVO IS SERBIAN
MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIAN

Loyal to their wallets? It seems the going rate to buy this so called government is $5 million, which as far as I'm concerned if fairly cheap for a whole country. It's the DS/SPS that have fat wallets and it's a shame the whole country must now pay with obedience!

Fortunately - we have loyal Serbians who are prepared to stand up and say no! They are the very people attending this demonstration, while they still can as I expect this dictatorship to ban them at some stage.

As for Karadzic, he defended the Serbian people and should never be handed over to the NATO court. In war situations, he did nothing out of the norm so why would anyone ever want to defend Serbia again if we feed them to the lions?

The complete destruction of Serbian pride and slavery seems to be the agenda here and the people simply will not allow it. I have faith and I can see momentum slowly building now.

I read at Blic that the hooligans who attacked the police were Grobari (Partizan supporters). It doesn't take much imagination to beleive they were bought by the government to start a fight and interrupt the peaceful demonstration. This kind of thing has happened before, and seems strangely frequent in Serbia.

This protest turned into disaster again. Can't people just protest peacefully? The attackers were well organised and seems all was planned.

It is high time to forbid protests since they don't behave as civilized people and don't know how to express thier protest.

Well, I'd rather have been wrong, but it seems that this lot have no other agenda apart from causing trouble.

I think the police acted with restraint, perhaps too much restraint.

The hooligans / far right groups, have thus far been the ones keeping the numbers up at these rallies. They form a hardcore of 150-200. Anybody who has seen the protests knows this. That is even if Vucic pretended not to know when he had a rock thrown at him last night. Rather than making him look like he opposed the violence, it instead made him and SRS look powerless, not the image he wants to present to his supporters and the electorate.

In short last nights protest was damaging mostly to the radicals but also to DSS and NS which supported the protests. At best these parties now look out of touch as they appeared not to realise what was going on. At worst they look complicit.

ZK you stated that these people were DS agents, now you shifted position concedeing they may be hooligans or football fans (what I have been saying all along). You claimed some conspiracy with the attacker of the B92 cameraman, now he has been caught and revealed as just another hooligan.

Sorry mate but your credibility is hovering around the zero mark. Its time to start considering that your viewpoint may be completely wrong.

This falling back on ethnic group is indicative of somebody who has no argument. The issue is the most important thing here, not the backgrounds of participants in this discussion.

I'd also like to get something clear. This rabble was responsible for the destruction of Belgrade's mosque, this rabble was responsible for the violence and looting after the Kosovo protest, this rabble was responsible for the attack on the gay protest a few years ago.

Its simply time to crack down on these thugs. I may be a moderate, but its time to show these people in no uncertain terms that the rule of law will be enforced.

bganon, the DS have been part of the government for the past 10 years and nothing has changed. Now that the DSS are out, the violence still continues.

However, the pattern continues to remain the same. Tadic leaves Belgrade or Serbia and all of a sudden, we have violence on the streets that are always linked (by Western back media) to loyal Serbian protests.

You only need a few agent provocateurs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur to make it happen and I suspect Tadic has a few on his payroll. But it does work better when the police play their role also.

There were hundreds of thousands at the Kosovo protests and the police said they were stretched but what's the excuse for last night where tens of thousands attended? Judging by the video, it seems those handful of thugs were allowed to run free. It could have simply been contained but that wouldn't bring home the pictures now would it?

Dear zk uk,

You ask what the '100' or so football hooligans were doing at the demonstration. I would have thought that its fairly obvious, but i'll try explaining it to you.
These people (of whom there was a good deal more than 100 if you bothered to watch the tv coverage) don't care about politics, football, karadzic, Serbia or Bosnia. They get their kicks from a 'good fight' and acts of vandalism. After all the inflammatory talk about Tadic going the same way as Dzindic, RTS becoming another Bastille, and the protest not finishing till th government gave in, these hooligans simply thought that this demonstration was the perfect place to be to enjoy an orgy of violence. They probably even thought they'd be considered Serbian heroes to boot!
Anyway, this must be a devastating blow for SRS-NS-DSS. A very poor turnout and the demo ended in a live TV display of hooliganism and vandalism. Is this the beginning of the end of SRS?

ZK, there you go again with your conspiracy theories again.

Like Mike, I too am an American who is also a proud Serbo-phile, but am deeply mystified by the people who are supporting Karadžić. It is incredibly unnerving that people are actively supporting this man, a coward who has let his own people suffer for 15 years for his own selfish purposes. It's crystal clear that the Radicals are using Karadžić as a political pawn to threaten Tadić and the administration because things did not go their way in the last election. And Vučić wants to become the mayor of Belgrade? One can only imagine what type of behavior he would be encouraging his supporters to participate in if he comes to power.

And to head off ZK at the pass, yes, I'm ashamed of my government and will be actively working to send the Bush administration to the Hague.

Dragan, you say, "Let's hope for a huge and peaceful rally." Oops, turned out to be small with violence. Tadic, by sending Dr. Dabic to the Hague, Tadic was not telling the world that "all Serbs are guilty", as you say, but the opposite, that Serbs renounce the war criminals in our midst. Comparing Mihajlovic to Karadzic is a real treacherous comparison for Mihajlovic. And how does executing 8,000 unarmed Muslims in Srebrenica serve to "defend" Serbs. Since virtually all of those Muslim victims were born after World War II, how could they be the same Muslims guilty of genocide against Serbs in WWII? Really, Dragan, get real.

today's prostest in Belgrade has shown, that the right wing is running out of power. their arguments are not supported by the masses - as SRS and DS thought - the masses stay away from such manifestations. 0,2 percent of the Serbian population were there today, this is a clear defeat for SRS and their supporters - and it is a poor farewell for Karadzic.

And to head off ZK at the pass, yes, I'm ashamed of my government and will be actively working to send the Bush administration to the Hague.
(Tread, 30 July 2008 00:51)
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So what are you doing here Tread? Sounds to me like you have a difficult battle ahead attempting to put Bush before the Hague, which will be closed within 2 years.

To ZK UK,
if you are proud Serbian then come to Serbia and be with your people today, tomorrow and forever. I'm trying to understand you and other people living abroad who dislike European standards and their way of life, but still continue to take advantage of "bad" life in Europe or US, Canada..

Maybe the Tadic government isn't a dictatorship, but it's definitely undemocratic. The DS isn't in power because that was the will of the Serbian voters. The DS is in power because the SPS actively deceived its voters. Nobody who voted for the SPS did so with the expectation that they would form a coalition with Tadic and arrest Radovan Karadzic.

Essentially, the SPS defrauded its voters and the seats that it won through that fraud are the difference that put Tadic and the DS in power. It's really hard to call that democracy.

Let me ask a (rhetorical) question: what do people expect will happen, will follow, when the radicals bus in their "allies" from all over serbia and RS, incl those "nice" football hooligans, to have a "demonstration"? will it be a love-in? will they be playing tiddly winks? no, it will be yet another ugly and violent manifestation of hatred and force by the very same forces (w/a few different faces due to various assassinations and imprisonments) that brought us all of those fun times in the 90s. yes, the radical nationalists -- remember them? how they "defended" serbs everywhere? anyway, it is a truly sickening spectacle!

and more press as "collateral damage"... i know that it is hopeless for me to communicate with the extremists, but i would very much like the moderate or "progressive" serbs to condemn these acts of violence and ugliness, clearly and without hesitation. not just chit-chatting about it. there was way too much chit chat (and i include us in the US as well) as sarajevo was starving under siege, as the srebrenica genocide was taking place, and on and on.

yes, there are bits and pieces of progress and i commend that -- but most of the court cases inside serbia concerning crimes against albanians, esp. individual cases, have taken place directly because of the unending pressure of people like natasa kandic, and her colleagues. otherwise, we would never see such "justice."

again, i condemn all acts of violence against individuals of ALL ethnicities, and particularly against press people. journalists need and deserve protection. get it together, people!

thank you.

robert-0,frisco
robertoruss@yahoo.com

On 29 July 2008 22:00, ZK UK wrote:"

"The complete destruction of Serbian pride and slavery seems to be the agenda here and the people simply will not allow it."

Wasn't it the same ZK UK that posted some biblical saying about how the wide and easy path lead to destruction, deceit and doom, and the narrow path lead to salvation and freedom?

It seems to me, if someone is going to lead "the people", this huge mass of unidentified people, then the only place they can go is through that wide and open path...

I am one of the ... kind of "shopkeepers" more-less, or at least close enough.
Being a coward and having a car with very-very "wrong" license plates and country code I just stay in BP for these days. Sorry guys. But I promise, for the week of October 26 anniversary of Hungarian 1956 we will firmly stay in BG.

I have no mood to meet the Hungarian radicals or their Serb "colleagues".

how come?

i thought tadics UDBA will protect his controlled "media" and film everybody?

ha ha

serbia can be proud of it´s youth !!!!

bganon, the time to crack down on those thugs was a very very long time ago but it seems they are constantly being used as a rent-a-mob by the DS and Western backed media to discredit certain political parties.

In the words of B92, one of their cameramen gets attacked brutally within 5 metres of police and they do absolutely nothing! Sounds to me like they are allowing it otherwise we couldn't have an SRS protest without violence right? It just wouldn't fit into the image the Western backed media and politicians like to portray.

So the cameraman assailant was caught, no surprises there - but there are still many unanswered questions. Why didn't the police do anything when the cameraman was brutally attacked within 5 meters of them? What was the ID/Badge he was wearing? I do expect it to fade away now and those important questions to be swept under the carpet.

Homophobic people are not tied to any political party bganon. Palmer is now your hero and a part of this wonderful new government though he himself is a self confessed homophobe - but that's acceptable now that he helped build Frankenstein, right?

It's all political spin and violence is simply part of it. I was at the anti-Iraq protest in London where over a million turned up. It was full of all sorts of people and the thug type included. However, the difference being that the police kept a very close eye on them and intervened when necessary to stop matters getting out of control. Quite simple really!

Football fans, you say? Who was playing?

ZK I see, so you are saying that the police controlled by Jocic and Nikitovic were to blame for the largest outburst of violence and hooliganism after the Kosovo protests?

In your own words 'sounds to me like they are allowing it'. In your own words 'time to crack down on these thugs long ago'... 'Political spin' by DSS controlled police ministry and secret services... 'they are being used as rent-a-mob'... at the Kosovo protest.

Now tell me if I were to go back to see what you were saying about the aftermath of the Kosovo protest, whether you have just done a complete about turn?

You can't keep chopping and changing. At least try to be consistent on principle, not on your portrayal of one political option being saints and the other evil, which is obviously wrong.

We all know that only the right wing takes part in beating up gays at protests. In the UK its the national front, in Serbia its Obraz and their hooligan supporters. In fact I don't know of any left group that has ever taken part in anti gay activity. Besides what I said was that these are the same people, literally.

You should know how to spell Palma by now ZK. And he is more your hero than mine, at least he used to be.

"...it seems they are constantly being used as a rent-a-mob by the DS and Western backed media to discredit certain political parties"

ZK, how do you expect to be taken seriously with that kind of statement?

Why not use Occam's razor instead and go for the simple explanation - that the leaders and officials of these "certain political parties" have been publicly ranting, raving and dropping innuendoes in such a way as to attract would be thugs who enjoy violence for its own sake? They are simply reaping what they have sown. I think Kostunica realised this, he was there at the sowing, but noticably absent at the reaping!

Come on ZK if you can't get even the most basic facts right, it shows that your political beliefs are made from mistaken assumptions.

Firstly jumping ahead to ten years is a bit of a leap seeing as we are only 8 and a half at the moment. Secondly you seem to have forgotten about 3 years - that is the period when DSS ruled with their allies G17 in the 2004 government. Actually its Vojislav Kostunica that has been the constant factor in Serbian politics since 2000.

Remember I was actually at the Kosovo protests, watching the US embassy burn, so don't tell me something you have no clue about. The police deliberately withdrew that time. The police did not have to deal with tens of thousands of law abiding protestors then. They had to deal with hooligans as they did last night - except they were ordered to retreat and to let hooligans loot and destroy. That did not happen last night and nobody was seriously hurt or killed.

By the way a handful is about 5 or so. Last night there were hundreds of hooligans on the rampage.

Congrats though, you've really shown us here the degree to which you are willing to make up scenario's to justify your opinions - with not a shred of evidence.

bganon,

ZK has consistently shown that he doesn't really care about facts. Even video of last night's riots is biased (how, I'm not sure). He doesn't live in Serbia, has not seen the situation on the ground, and has no real concern for anyone there aside from trying to look patriotic from abroad.

Of course, that won't stop him from calling into question the patriotism of everyone who doesn't follow his logic.

I am incredibly glad someone like you lives in Serbia and can give us accurate and honest reports about what's going on there. It would be great if you could find yourself involved more and more in the politics there.