Macedonian cabinet faces collapse

Ethnic Albanians officially make up a quarter of Macedonia's population. Some estimates however claim that the real figure is as high as 40%. The day may come when Macedonians will be like the Montenegrins ie. become an ethnic minority in their country.

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency". "

Do albanians not understand they are living in another country and not in albania? What right do they have to demand such ridiculous things? Oh ya I forgot, this is part of greater albania project.

Does Europe not see what they have started. Albanians are over confident and now are tearing up the Balkans. Way to go Europe and USA, things were finally getting somewhat normal and now Kosovo's UDI will be a domino effect.

I hate it when facts verify my sayings. I posted in here on the 29th of february that the FYROM people should face their real opponent and not the Greeks, and here you are.
And I have to admit that some of the things said posted here are ridiculus. Like "our right to get employment in public services in line with the size of the Albanian population". Thats absolutely ridiculus. Whoever is capable and has the requirements should get the spot, not based on any kind of minority racism. Because in case you havent got it yet, we are talking here, and in Kossovo's case also, for a new kind of racism. The racism of minorities over majorities, in the name of equal treatement and under the fear of majority being called racists!!!!!!!
Ridiculus.
A pure case of blackmale. I have to say that as a Greek, i am benefited from this, since FYROM is not going only to lose any kind of bargaining strength for the name, but now the albanians are going to put pressure on the govt for more rights and a very possible new split.
As I said in another thread:
"Your problem thought is not Greece. Its albania and you should admit that. I am not worried about any kind of territorial claims you raise now or in the future, you should worry about the territorial claims of the albanians inside your country. Because the way you play the game you will not exist in some years as a sovereign country. You will be split in 3 maybe 4 pieces and then no more "Great Makedonia" for you....//... Be smart. See your real problems and enemies and deal with them, not us :)
(Nikitas, 29 February 2008 01:42) "

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency".

---------------------------

benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency

-----------

Benefits???????????

Are they from a different planet?
They should be arrested, given an proper trial and sent to jail for crimes against the state.

What an idiot, if he is representive for the common albanian then that doesn't spell out any 'bright' future for the albanians.

Hey i want state benefits, let's start an revolt.

Whether Crvenkoski receives an invitation to join NATO or not is not of any importance to us.We're more concerned with bread & butter issues which are our minority rights.Our right to speak our language,our right to get employment in public services in line with the size of the Albanian population and the adherance to Ohrid agreement are few of
our demands.Also time limit
must be agreed on Kosova recognition.

Hey wait a minute! I thought the UDI of the separatist minority Albanians in the Serbian province of Kosovo would bring stability to the Balkans and not set a precedent. Of course the US, Germany, UK and so on knew this would happen, nobody can be that stupid (or could they)?

ahmed

"If you can prove historically that the Slavs were in Macedonia before the
Albanians then i will agree with you but if not then you should give us Dardania back. "

So what? Should Americans leave the USA to the Indians and go back to where they came from? What century are you living in now Ahmed? Your Dardania does not exist, neither does Anatolia, neither does Thrace, neither does Dacia, neither does Illyria, neither does Scythia, neither does Sarmatia and neither does Ancient Rome. Times change, get with living in the 21st Century, not the 1st Century.

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency". "

Do albanians not understand they are living in another country and not in albania? What right do they have to demand such ridiculous things? Oh ya I forgot, this is part of greater albania project.
(Ratko, 13 March 2008 16:29)

That brings the question what
came first,the chicken or the egg.If you can prove historically that the Slavs were in Macedonia before the
Albanians then i will agree with you but if not then you should give us Dardania back.
We have been on these lands
forthousands of years before you and you are asking us to go to Albania.All minorities have rights guaranteed by the European Human Rights Act the same Europe that Gruevski wants to join.With their nationalistic attitude Macedonia will remainoutside
EU and iam sure of that.

To Dimitar
A few days ago another Greek poster threw the gauntlet at you and your compatriots by saying thet thre are 5,000 ancient Macedonian inscriptions all written in Greek.If you can produce one written in your own language then we'll be prepared to give you the name macedonia.
But you know as well as i do that there isn't any because your mash language was only constructed by dictator Tito after the second world War.
In the meantime enjoy the party with the Albanians.They
are jolly good fellows and pease don't upset them.Your country's future looks bleak Dimitar which ever way you look at it.

Albanians make 40 % of macedonia but still they are consider second type of citizens. Macedonians will have to respect Ohrid Agreement. They are not certanly, because albanians are not getting what they sign for. Albanians wants their legitimate rights, language, flag use and more representatives in governemt also why not to have an albanian president in teh future. They are 40 % of polulation right? They are born in Macedonia and they can be presidents, prime minister as well, in an ideal world , but in Macedonia they are just consider a second type of citizens. Thats enought of discriminations. If macedonians dont respct Ohrid Agreement they are going to suffer even more. Without Albanians they can not join Nato, EU .

a shame about macedonia as i've said before. the u.s. wants a part of their territory and their name. they only want a part of our territory. is it possible that the balkan nations will not stand in solidarity to defend against dangerous aggressive greater albania chauvinism and their backers who are currently also making iraq a better place than it ever was?
and greeks, do not think that you will simply be able to sit back and watch. there is a serious problem in the balkans and all of us are facing it, or will be.

This is the second govenment in the region that collapses due to Kosovo indenpendence. Like it or not, the Albanians are the most influencial nation in the ballkans.

And thus the next domino falls...

So here we have the FYRo MaKedonian Albanians showing their respect and loyalty to the state they are in just when the State need it most! If FYRoMakedonia loses out on NATO admisssion then that will be a huge blow in the plans of the US - ah but then they always did know best,..did some one say Iraq?

It would not surprise me if many thousands of Serbian Albanians were not registering themselves in FYRoMakedonia through the NATO 'monitored' porous borders to bolster the ethnic-Albanian numbers while many Makedonians were exiting via Bulgarian citizenship into the EU - this is a receipe for disaster for democracy in FYRoMakedonia. Way to go US, EU real stability !!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

Enough with the crocodile tears...

The Albanians for years complained about not having a sole Albanian purpose university, they got what they want and now they are issuing fake degrees FYI http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8564/

And how convenient that the Albanians would like us to drop the war crime cases against the UCK, is not stopping the water supply of an entire city a crime? isn't engraving UCK in someones back with a knife a crime??? Isnt mutalating dead soldiers a crime? hmm I believe all other members were amnetised..

And yet the DPA would like to disregard these crimes..

The ignorance of some is beyond belief and very offensive..

This is sickening.. stop playing the fake victim card..

And for those whio complain that they are the original habitants of the Balkans, you wont get away with your ethnic cleansing for too much longer..

Albanians complaining about discrimination against them in Macedonia are a complete JOKE!!!! They have absolutely no respect for state institutions of any kind, and are essentially parasites on the state apparatus. Well, probably not every single individual, but lets face it; Albanians are a clan based society, whose tribal consciousness dictates that to act outside the group makes one an outsider, even to the extent of his life being threatened! Otherwise, why are all Albanian houses fortified by large brick walls? Must be a boring view. Fear dictates that all must be a part of the group or face the consequences! Therefore, "slavs" are bad, Albanians are good!

Ethnic Albanians officially make up a quarter of Macedonia's population. Some estimates however claim that the real figure is as high as 40%. The day may come when Macedonians will be like the Montenegrins ie. become an ethnic minority in their country.
(lowe, 13 March 2008 15:12)

So Iowe, what is your proposal?

Albanians complain about being mistreated more than any other nation in Europe, they prefer to sit and complain and hope for someone to take them seriously, rather than biting down and carving out something for themselves wherever they are living.

Come on guys, what EU countries have such minority laws and regulations that the Albanians demand? They are in Macedonia and should integrate into the Macedonian culture and way of life, if they want to be Albanians, they can do so at home, and if they want it official, Albania is not far.

While the grievancies of the DPA may certainly be very legitimate, the timing of the pullout could not be worse, with less than a month from the NATO conference.

The DPA could have fought this fight after the April conference. One more month would not have mattered.

I am Albanian and I have to admit that I'm embarrassed by the actions of DPA and this Menduh Thaci. Such actions have the stink of treachery as far as I'm concerned.

The fact is, Macedonian government can not accomodate nor is interested to have albanians with more rights. Macedonians want all Albanians to act like Macedonians in a country that dont respect other ethnic communities. Macedonians are Slavs, bulgarians and that is totally fine. Macedonia will exist as a nation only when the treat Albanians equally, which mean, give them the rights that any citizen of your country deserve. Let them run for president, prime minister, let them speak their national official language, let them be part of all government instituations. In a country where 40 % of population is Albanian but only 5 percent of them work in government or public sector, where 1 albanian player plays on the national team of football, where no Albanians are in any embassy. Well if you consider Albanians your citizens and you better will cause of their numbers in your country. Macedonia has to act like switzerland or even bosnia where minorities have official languages and run their local governements. Albanians from Macedonia are million year aways from what people in Switzerland nor Bosnia. Stop disctrimination or Macedonia like my dear friend from Hellas said, Macedonia will get split as a watermelon.

Can someone on this forum explain to me why the country "Macedonia" or FYRoM has to give in to all these demands? The Macedonian Albanians want their own flag, language, etc. I believe that if you want display a flag of a country in your own home that you should have that right. Now, if all these Albanians or whatever other nationality wanted this in the US, do you know what the answer would be? You live in "Macedonia" or FYRoM therefore the laws of that country should be respected. I am an American and I have the right to hang any flag I want in my home but in order to survive here you need to learn the language of the country you live in and respect the laws of that nation, it's that simple. This does not mean that you cannot speak another language but the official language of the country is the official language. Once again, it's that simple. If everyone would abide by the laws of the country they live in they wouldn't have all these ridiculous problems in the Balkans. It's that simple!!
Regards

When the US decided that the Albanians
would be it's weapon in the conquest of the Balkans, they knew that they would have a compliant and malleable puppet in their hands. Albanians feel themselves to be historically aggrieved due to their closed, fear based society. They feel culturally inferior next to the Macedonian, Serbian historically rich cultures, that's why they felt no qualms about destroying our medieval churches; vindictive revenge. Their position of power in Macedonia has resulted in another failed Western experiment, all they do is agitate for secession, undermine all rights they are given throwing everything back into the faces of the Macedonians who are disgusted by the Albanian behaviour but are not allowed to raise a voice in protest! Albanians sorely need a leadership to take them out of the spiritual dark age they are in, but no one dare go against the tribal taboos. Their complaints and lack are a result of their own inability to do anything for themselves!

To the grk poster; check the dna evidence (post 13)! Sorry game over!!! Our language a mash! Macedonian folklorist Hadzimanov collected 8,000 Macedonian folksongs in the Macedonian language, including an epic about Aleksandar which explains his death of mosquito bite (circa late 19th C. before malaria was even "discovered"). And to the serb poster;
Your not so subtle imputations only reveal your IGNORANCE and pro grkman! Maybe, you should change your name because you certainly have no principles in my view! Whats interesting about Serbs is how they "love freedom" for themselves but are quite happy to deny it to others! BTW Leon, last time I looked, it was modern grks that share a large ethnic Albanian component!

Lowe,
And I sincerely don't get wich is your anxiety about?

by the way, I found another dna research, this time from one of your own universities. Take a look its funny :)
Petlichkovski A, Efinska-Mladenovska O, Trajkov D, Arsov T, Strezova A, Spiroski M.
Institute of Immunobiology and Human Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University Ss. Kiril and Metodij, Skopje, Macedonia.
"...A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations..."
Now, I dont get it. Could you please explain me who is right and who is wrong? Your own proffesors or your own proffesors? :)

ANd for the confirmation of my post, here is the link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15361127?ordinalpos=26&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

"Nikitas"; what is your point???? Its known that the Ancient Macedonians were a different ethnic group to "greeks"! Now you're telling me that modern greeks have a right to the so called greek heritage and Macedonians don't have any right to the ancient Macedonian heritage???? Sorry, I don't play your little game!

Until 1912/13 Aegean ( real name Belomorska Makedonia ) Macedonia was Macedonian!!! How about you justify to me the greek takeover of our historic land, the genocide of our people and then talk to me about "historic proof". Macedonians involved in proving their history are somehow lying but greeks involved in wholesale fabrication are not!!! LOL

Sorry "Nikitas"; there will be no great albania! This is a US manipulation of Macedonia, using the albanian 5th column, to accept a compromise on name in order to get Macedonia into NATO. This is will of USA! They cannot afford serious destabilising of Macedonia as "Kosova" project/investment would come into question!

Also, you are wrong again; greece did create the momentum for current crisis; but here's the catch- and here, greece will lose, once and for all in terms of claims on Macedonia; Macedonian ethnic identity will remain intact! US knows that we'll never accept greece trying to rub our identity out in order to justify its genocide of Aegean Macedonians, its claims that Asia minor settlers are "true Macedonians" lol, so they will not try to divest us of it as greece wants. Finally, greeks' wholesale theft of ancient Macedonian heritage will be brought into question, as Macedonians, free of interim agreement, will be able to make our case ( See www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/AncientGenes.html for proof-DNA evidence- that today's Macedonians are descendents of ancient Macedonians).

So, no matter the name, we will always be Macedonians. As for the Albanians, you over estimate yourselves by far. All you ever talk about is rights for Albanians; how about civilizing yourselves a little? The world does not revolve around Albanian rights/demands as you all seem to think!! I predict you will still make a mess of Kosovo, no matter the US investment- a leopard can't change its spots- but hey, prove me wrong!!

Dimitar

Sorry to burst your many bubles like this, but here are some clues:
1. "( See [link] for proof-DNA evidence- that today's Macedonians are descendents of ancient Macedonians)."
Right. I visited the link. I know this site for many years now and of course is a FYROMian site and of course would post anything in favor of your cause. But I did more. I checked the team that did the dna tests. Let me inform you that:
a) 3 of them are from Skopia.
b) They do not post where they got their samples from, which makes the research, at least inaccurate.
c) Their own findings clasify the Turks to the "older Mediteranean substratyum", so go figure....
d) It also says that "Macedonians are not relative to Greeks", which is exactly what we say and proves you are nothing more than Slavs.

I still dont find any strong argument for your case in that link, sorry :)

As for the rest of your bubbles.
2. "This is a US manipulation of Macedonia, using the albanian 5th column"
Totally agree. Albanians and until very recently FYROMians, were puppets of the americans who are of the dogma "divide and rule", and not "divide and conquer" because you are already conquered. Now you also become divided even more and more every day.
3. "Macedonian ethnic identity will remain intact!"
Of course it will. It is a slavic ethinc identity, of people inhabiting a part of the ancient lands of Makedonia. You should be proud of your slavic heritage. I am proud of my Makedonian - and therefor Greek - heritage, you should be proud of your slavic heritage also :)
4. "All you ever talk about is rights for Albanians"
I dont. The contrary. If you read my post better and more carefully, I totally agree that the whole albanian claims is a pure blackmale and a blund discriminating and racist behaviour of supposedly "equal" citizens.
5. "Macedonian folklorist Hadzimanov collected 8,000 Macedonian folksongs in the Macedonian language"
Right. Lets see. The idiom you call "macedonian language" is a slavic origin idiom. This doesnt make it ethnic Macedonian though. Let me put it this way. Find me one (1) script of ANCIENT origin that is written in any type of language relative to the one you call "Macedonian" and I will admit you have that. You are the ones making the claims of language and origins, you have the burdain of proof, not me. Prove me wrong and I will admit it.
As for your songs, you migrated to an area that already had its myths and folk sories, you mingled, you adopted, you translated them, you have them. Whats the point of the folk songs argument, i still dont get it, sorry :)

Look mate. We are all waiting for some kind of serious proof, which you dont have so far. Until then, dont claim anything, and try to clean your own inside mess. What I have said in my first post is clearly in your favor, in case you didnt get it yet. What i said is that you are making huge diplomatic and political mistakes inside your own country, that you are digging your own grave. We didnt pick the momentum. You have been preparing it for years now and you are just to blind to see it. I told you before: We are not your enemies, look elsewhere for that. :)

P.S. I am really sorry for this long post guys.

Are they from a different planet?
They should be arrested, given an proper trial and sent to jail for crimes against the state.


Ronald
You are out of touch with reality. Try arresting 40% of Macedonia's population.

I personally would love to see Macedonia as a NATO member, however, they must honor human rights and Ohrid Agreement that was signed by them. How can someone ask to join EU when they do not respect most basic values of EU.
One has to understand that with Milosevic the practice of unjust conduct by a state against a minority was burried deep. It is a EU era that we live in and not dictatorial era of Milosevic.
Minorities anywhere should have their rights protected by a corresponding state that they live in. One should be intelligent enough to realize that those are European values.

Wait, dimitar, you calling Albanians losers now and people that are backword and not willing to integrate theirselves. Are you kidding me? Albanias want to leave in peace with you in Macedonia but only and i repeat only when you respect Ohrid Agreement.The way you walk you still consider them second type citizens. You know is the problem with you slavo serbs. You use to do whatever you wanted in Europe, because of Russians backing you up and Europe not giving a damn about Balkans in the past, but now that we live in democracy, you still are acting like in communism, where you think cause you are the majority , you can abuse any treatment and act like a bully. No my friend that will not happen any more. Peter the polish,, dude it suck to be an Albanian in Macedonia im telling you that. Why you keep accusing Albanians of not wanting to live with Serbs nor Macedonians,, look at Serbs in Mitrovica what are they doing. Macedonia was created on albanian land and dont respect 40% of their ethnic "minority" basic rights. Your country is going down to hell. Maybe Albanians are been to nice and still co -exist with you, maybe they should act like Serbs in Mitrovica and built a war or bridge to seperate them from Slavs. Thats your attitude so, who is the bad boy now? Look at Serbs in Bosnia, REpublika Serbska,, right,,look at in Mitrovica.

ulli

Why are you referring to me as if Poland has done or is doing something wrong to Albanians?

Or do you see no difference between Poles, Croats, Slovenes, Serbs, Macedonians and Russians? We are all Slavs and you think the same of all of us, or what are you saying?

Only point I agree with is that the Serbs in Bosnia & Herzegovina should accept their autonomy and not disrupt the fragile balance that makes the country up, fair enough.

Serbs in Mitrovica, well yes, I also agree, on the other hand, Kosovo Albanians would not be any different if no one recognized Kosovo's UDI, but yes, there is no excuse for the violence that the Serbs were involved in recently.

Greek tactic; get you on the defensive, by questioning your right to the name, ethnicity and so on, thereby, legitimising their claim to Macedonia,while simultaneously de-legitimising ours. For 300 years, Greeks have been trying to destruct the Macedonians.

If Macedonia was Greek, it's govt, would not have offered the old communist, Gligorov, $1 million for the name! They would not have not have had to clear the millenium old Macedonian presence from newly annexed Belomorska Macedonia! Greeks are a sad example of 19C. nation building techniques, carried over into 21st century, and govt, policies teaching them they are "pure race" direct from ancients!

Ratko;to you it's "part of the greater Albanian project"but in reality to everyone else it's Albanians excercising their rights for equality,human rights and promoting democracy.What's wrong will defending yourself against discrimination? What Albanians struggle for ,others enjoy and yet overlook it.That "other country we live in" was part of original Albania before the Slavs invaded from Russia/Ukraine region.If you put it like that, then Albanians were present in our ancestrial lands before you,got it?Now lets move ahead.

This is the second govenment in the region that collapses due to Kosovo indenpendence. Like it or not, the Albanians are the most influencial nation in the ballkans.

Are they from a different planet?
They should be arrested, given an proper trial and sent to jail for crimes against the state.


Ronald
You are out of touch with reality. Try arresting 40% of Macedonia's population.

I personally would love to see Macedonia as a NATO member, however, they must honor human rights and Ohrid Agreement that was signed by them. How can someone ask to join EU when they do not respect most basic values of EU.
One has to understand that with Milosevic the practice of unjust conduct by a state against a minority was burried deep. It is a EU era that we live in and not dictatorial era of Milosevic.
Minorities anywhere should have their rights protected by a corresponding state that they live in. One should be intelligent enough to realize that those are European values.

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency". "

Do albanians not understand they are living in another country and not in albania? What right do they have to demand such ridiculous things? Oh ya I forgot, this is part of greater albania project.
(Ratko, 13 March 2008 16:29)

That brings the question what
came first,the chicken or the egg.If you can prove historically that the Slavs were in Macedonia before the
Albanians then i will agree with you but if not then you should give us Dardania back.
We have been on these lands
forthousands of years before you and you are asking us to go to Albania.All minorities have rights guaranteed by the European Human Rights Act the same Europe that Gruevski wants to join.With their nationalistic attitude Macedonia will remainoutside
EU and iam sure of that.

Whether Crvenkoski receives an invitation to join NATO or not is not of any importance to us.We're more concerned with bread & butter issues which are our minority rights.Our right to speak our language,our right to get employment in public services in line with the size of the Albanian population and the adherance to Ohrid agreement are few of
our demands.Also time limit
must be agreed on Kosova recognition.

Wait, dimitar, you calling Albanians losers now and people that are backword and not willing to integrate theirselves. Are you kidding me? Albanias want to leave in peace with you in Macedonia but only and i repeat only when you respect Ohrid Agreement.The way you walk you still consider them second type citizens. You know is the problem with you slavo serbs. You use to do whatever you wanted in Europe, because of Russians backing you up and Europe not giving a damn about Balkans in the past, but now that we live in democracy, you still are acting like in communism, where you think cause you are the majority , you can abuse any treatment and act like a bully. No my friend that will not happen any more. Peter the polish,, dude it suck to be an Albanian in Macedonia im telling you that. Why you keep accusing Albanians of not wanting to live with Serbs nor Macedonians,, look at Serbs in Mitrovica what are they doing. Macedonia was created on albanian land and dont respect 40% of their ethnic "minority" basic rights. Your country is going down to hell. Maybe Albanians are been to nice and still co -exist with you, maybe they should act like Serbs in Mitrovica and built a war or bridge to seperate them from Slavs. Thats your attitude so, who is the bad boy now? Look at Serbs in Bosnia, REpublika Serbska,, right,,look at in Mitrovica.

Albanians make 40 % of macedonia but still they are consider second type of citizens. Macedonians will have to respect Ohrid Agreement. They are not certanly, because albanians are not getting what they sign for. Albanians wants their legitimate rights, language, flag use and more representatives in governemt also why not to have an albanian president in teh future. They are 40 % of polulation right? They are born in Macedonia and they can be presidents, prime minister as well, in an ideal world , but in Macedonia they are just consider a second type of citizens. Thats enought of discriminations. If macedonians dont respct Ohrid Agreement they are going to suffer even more. Without Albanians they can not join Nato, EU .

Sorry "Nikitas"; there will be no great albania! This is a US manipulation of Macedonia, using the albanian 5th column, to accept a compromise on name in order to get Macedonia into NATO. This is will of USA! They cannot afford serious destabilising of Macedonia as "Kosova" project/investment would come into question!

Also, you are wrong again; greece did create the momentum for current crisis; but here's the catch- and here, greece will lose, once and for all in terms of claims on Macedonia; Macedonian ethnic identity will remain intact! US knows that we'll never accept greece trying to rub our identity out in order to justify its genocide of Aegean Macedonians, its claims that Asia minor settlers are "true Macedonians" lol, so they will not try to divest us of it as greece wants. Finally, greeks' wholesale theft of ancient Macedonian heritage will be brought into question, as Macedonians, free of interim agreement, will be able to make our case ( See www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/AncientGenes.html for proof-DNA evidence- that today's Macedonians are descendents of ancient Macedonians).

So, no matter the name, we will always be Macedonians. As for the Albanians, you over estimate yourselves by far. All you ever talk about is rights for Albanians; how about civilizing yourselves a little? The world does not revolve around Albanian rights/demands as you all seem to think!! I predict you will still make a mess of Kosovo, no matter the US investment- a leopard can't change its spots- but hey, prove me wrong!!

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency".

---------------------------

benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency

-----------

Benefits???????????

Are they from a different planet?
They should be arrested, given an proper trial and sent to jail for crimes against the state.

What an idiot, if he is representive for the common albanian then that doesn't spell out any 'bright' future for the albanians.

Hey i want state benefits, let's start an revolt.

ahmed

"If you can prove historically that the Slavs were in Macedonia before the
Albanians then i will agree with you but if not then you should give us Dardania back. "

So what? Should Americans leave the USA to the Indians and go back to where they came from? What century are you living in now Ahmed? Your Dardania does not exist, neither does Anatolia, neither does Thrace, neither does Dacia, neither does Illyria, neither does Scythia, neither does Sarmatia and neither does Ancient Rome. Times change, get with living in the 21st Century, not the 1st Century.

The fact is, Macedonian government can not accomodate nor is interested to have albanians with more rights. Macedonians want all Albanians to act like Macedonians in a country that dont respect other ethnic communities. Macedonians are Slavs, bulgarians and that is totally fine. Macedonia will exist as a nation only when the treat Albanians equally, which mean, give them the rights that any citizen of your country deserve. Let them run for president, prime minister, let them speak their national official language, let them be part of all government instituations. In a country where 40 % of population is Albanian but only 5 percent of them work in government or public sector, where 1 albanian player plays on the national team of football, where no Albanians are in any embassy. Well if you consider Albanians your citizens and you better will cause of their numbers in your country. Macedonia has to act like switzerland or even bosnia where minorities have official languages and run their local governements. Albanians from Macedonia are million year aways from what people in Switzerland nor Bosnia. Stop disctrimination or Macedonia like my dear friend from Hellas said, Macedonia will get split as a watermelon.

To the grk poster; check the dna evidence (post 13)! Sorry game over!!! Our language a mash! Macedonian folklorist Hadzimanov collected 8,000 Macedonian folksongs in the Macedonian language, including an epic about Aleksandar which explains his death of mosquito bite (circa late 19th C. before malaria was even "discovered"). And to the serb poster;
Your not so subtle imputations only reveal your IGNORANCE and pro grkman! Maybe, you should change your name because you certainly have no principles in my view! Whats interesting about Serbs is how they "love freedom" for themselves but are quite happy to deny it to others! BTW Leon, last time I looked, it was modern grks that share a large ethnic Albanian component!

by the way, I found another dna research, this time from one of your own universities. Take a look its funny :)
Petlichkovski A, Efinska-Mladenovska O, Trajkov D, Arsov T, Strezova A, Spiroski M.
Institute of Immunobiology and Human Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University Ss. Kiril and Metodij, Skopje, Macedonia.
"...A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations..."
Now, I dont get it. Could you please explain me who is right and who is wrong? Your own proffesors or your own proffesors? :)

ANd for the confirmation of my post, here is the link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15361127?ordinalpos=26&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

"Albanian DPA leader Menduh Thaci said his party would quit over the Gruevski government's "failure to back laws allowing greater use of the Albanian language and flag, and to provide benefits for veterans of the 2001 Albanian guerrilla insurgency". "

Do albanians not understand they are living in another country and not in albania? What right do they have to demand such ridiculous things? Oh ya I forgot, this is part of greater albania project.

Does Europe not see what they have started. Albanians are over confident and now are tearing up the Balkans. Way to go Europe and USA, things were finally getting somewhat normal and now Kosovo's UDI will be a domino effect.

To Dimitar
A few days ago another Greek poster threw the gauntlet at you and your compatriots by saying thet thre are 5,000 ancient Macedonian inscriptions all written in Greek.If you can produce one written in your own language then we'll be prepared to give you the name macedonia.
But you know as well as i do that there isn't any because your mash language was only constructed by dictator Tito after the second world War.
In the meantime enjoy the party with the Albanians.They
are jolly good fellows and pease don't upset them.Your country's future looks bleak Dimitar which ever way you look at it.

Enough with the crocodile tears...

The Albanians for years complained about not having a sole Albanian purpose university, they got what they want and now they are issuing fake degrees FYI http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/8564/

And how convenient that the Albanians would like us to drop the war crime cases against the UCK, is not stopping the water supply of an entire city a crime? isn't engraving UCK in someones back with a knife a crime??? Isnt mutalating dead soldiers a crime? hmm I believe all other members were amnetised..

And yet the DPA would like to disregard these crimes..

The ignorance of some is beyond belief and very offensive..

This is sickening.. stop playing the fake victim card..

And for those whio complain that they are the original habitants of the Balkans, you wont get away with your ethnic cleansing for too much longer..

Albanians complaining about discrimination against them in Macedonia are a complete JOKE!!!! They have absolutely no respect for state institutions of any kind, and are essentially parasites on the state apparatus. Well, probably not every single individual, but lets face it; Albanians are a clan based society, whose tribal consciousness dictates that to act outside the group makes one an outsider, even to the extent of his life being threatened! Otherwise, why are all Albanian houses fortified by large brick walls? Must be a boring view. Fear dictates that all must be a part of the group or face the consequences! Therefore, "slavs" are bad, Albanians are good!

Dimitar

Sorry to burst your many bubles like this, but here are some clues:
1. "( See [link] for proof-DNA evidence- that today's Macedonians are descendents of ancient Macedonians)."
Right. I visited the link. I know this site for many years now and of course is a FYROMian site and of course would post anything in favor of your cause. But I did more. I checked the team that did the dna tests. Let me inform you that:
a) 3 of them are from Skopia.
b) They do not post where they got their samples from, which makes the research, at least inaccurate.
c) Their own findings clasify the Turks to the "older Mediteranean substratyum", so go figure....
d) It also says that "Macedonians are not relative to Greeks", which is exactly what we say and proves you are nothing more than Slavs.

I still dont find any strong argument for your case in that link, sorry :)

As for the rest of your bubbles.
2. "This is a US manipulation of Macedonia, using the albanian 5th column"
Totally agree. Albanians and until very recently FYROMians, were puppets of the americans who are of the dogma "divide and rule", and not "divide and conquer" because you are already conquered. Now you also become divided even more and more every day.
3. "Macedonian ethnic identity will remain intact!"
Of course it will. It is a slavic ethinc identity, of people inhabiting a part of the ancient lands of Makedonia. You should be proud of your slavic heritage. I am proud of my Makedonian - and therefor Greek - heritage, you should be proud of your slavic heritage also :)
4. "All you ever talk about is rights for Albanians"
I dont. The contrary. If you read my post better and more carefully, I totally agree that the whole albanian claims is a pure blackmale and a blund discriminating and racist behaviour of supposedly "equal" citizens.
5. "Macedonian folklorist Hadzimanov collected 8,000 Macedonian folksongs in the Macedonian language"
Right. Lets see. The idiom you call "macedonian language" is a slavic origin idiom. This doesnt make it ethnic Macedonian though. Let me put it this way. Find me one (1) script of ANCIENT origin that is written in any type of language relative to the one you call "Macedonian" and I will admit you have that. You are the ones making the claims of language and origins, you have the burdain of proof, not me. Prove me wrong and I will admit it.
As for your songs, you migrated to an area that already had its myths and folk sories, you mingled, you adopted, you translated them, you have them. Whats the point of the folk songs argument, i still dont get it, sorry :)

Look mate. We are all waiting for some kind of serious proof, which you dont have so far. Until then, dont claim anything, and try to clean your own inside mess. What I have said in my first post is clearly in your favor, in case you didnt get it yet. What i said is that you are making huge diplomatic and political mistakes inside your own country, that you are digging your own grave. We didnt pick the momentum. You have been preparing it for years now and you are just to blind to see it. I told you before: We are not your enemies, look elsewhere for that. :)

P.S. I am really sorry for this long post guys.

Ethnic Albanians officially make up a quarter of Macedonia's population. Some estimates however claim that the real figure is as high as 40%. The day may come when Macedonians will be like the Montenegrins ie. become an ethnic minority in their country.
(lowe, 13 March 2008 15:12)

So Iowe, what is your proposal?

I hate it when facts verify my sayings. I posted in here on the 29th of february that the FYROM people should face their real opponent and not the Greeks, and here you are.
And I have to admit that some of the things said posted here are ridiculus. Like "our right to get employment in public services in line with the size of the Albanian population". Thats absolutely ridiculus. Whoever is capable and has the requirements should get the spot, not based on any kind of minority racism. Because in case you havent got it yet, we are talking here, and in Kossovo's case also, for a new kind of racism. The racism of minorities over majorities, in the name of equal treatement and under the fear of majority being called racists!!!!!!!
Ridiculus.
A pure case of blackmale. I have to say that as a Greek, i am benefited from this, since FYROM is not going only to lose any kind of bargaining strength for the name, but now the albanians are going to put pressure on the govt for more rights and a very possible new split.
As I said in another thread:
"Your problem thought is not Greece. Its albania and you should admit that. I am not worried about any kind of territorial claims you raise now or in the future, you should worry about the territorial claims of the albanians inside your country. Because the way you play the game you will not exist in some years as a sovereign country. You will be split in 3 maybe 4 pieces and then no more "Great Makedonia" for you....//... Be smart. See your real problems and enemies and deal with them, not us :)
(Nikitas, 29 February 2008 01:42) "

Hey wait a minute! I thought the UDI of the separatist minority Albanians in the Serbian province of Kosovo would bring stability to the Balkans and not set a precedent. Of course the US, Germany, UK and so on knew this would happen, nobody can be that stupid (or could they)?

Ethnic Albanians officially make up a quarter of Macedonia's population. Some estimates however claim that the real figure is as high as 40%. The day may come when Macedonians will be like the Montenegrins ie. become an ethnic minority in their country.

Lowe,
And I sincerely don't get wich is your anxiety about?

And thus the next domino falls...

So here we have the FYRo MaKedonian Albanians showing their respect and loyalty to the state they are in just when the State need it most! If FYRoMakedonia loses out on NATO admisssion then that will be a huge blow in the plans of the US - ah but then they always did know best,..did some one say Iraq?

It would not surprise me if many thousands of Serbian Albanians were not registering themselves in FYRoMakedonia through the NATO 'monitored' porous borders to bolster the ethnic-Albanian numbers while many Makedonians were exiting via Bulgarian citizenship into the EU - this is a receipe for disaster for democracy in FYRoMakedonia. Way to go US, EU real stability !!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

While the grievancies of the DPA may certainly be very legitimate, the timing of the pullout could not be worse, with less than a month from the NATO conference.

The DPA could have fought this fight after the April conference. One more month would not have mattered.

I am Albanian and I have to admit that I'm embarrassed by the actions of DPA and this Menduh Thaci. Such actions have the stink of treachery as far as I'm concerned.

a shame about macedonia as i've said before. the u.s. wants a part of their territory and their name. they only want a part of our territory. is it possible that the balkan nations will not stand in solidarity to defend against dangerous aggressive greater albania chauvinism and their backers who are currently also making iraq a better place than it ever was?
and greeks, do not think that you will simply be able to sit back and watch. there is a serious problem in the balkans and all of us are facing it, or will be.

Can someone on this forum explain to me why the country "Macedonia" or FYRoM has to give in to all these demands? The Macedonian Albanians want their own flag, language, etc. I believe that if you want display a flag of a country in your own home that you should have that right. Now, if all these Albanians or whatever other nationality wanted this in the US, do you know what the answer would be? You live in "Macedonia" or FYRoM therefore the laws of that country should be respected. I am an American and I have the right to hang any flag I want in my home but in order to survive here you need to learn the language of the country you live in and respect the laws of that nation, it's that simple. This does not mean that you cannot speak another language but the official language of the country is the official language. Once again, it's that simple. If everyone would abide by the laws of the country they live in they wouldn't have all these ridiculous problems in the Balkans. It's that simple!!
Regards

Albanians complain about being mistreated more than any other nation in Europe, they prefer to sit and complain and hope for someone to take them seriously, rather than biting down and carving out something for themselves wherever they are living.

Come on guys, what EU countries have such minority laws and regulations that the Albanians demand? They are in Macedonia and should integrate into the Macedonian culture and way of life, if they want to be Albanians, they can do so at home, and if they want it official, Albania is not far.

When the US decided that the Albanians
would be it's weapon in the conquest of the Balkans, they knew that they would have a compliant and malleable puppet in their hands. Albanians feel themselves to be historically aggrieved due to their closed, fear based society. They feel culturally inferior next to the Macedonian, Serbian historically rich cultures, that's why they felt no qualms about destroying our medieval churches; vindictive revenge. Their position of power in Macedonia has resulted in another failed Western experiment, all they do is agitate for secession, undermine all rights they are given throwing everything back into the faces of the Macedonians who are disgusted by the Albanian behaviour but are not allowed to raise a voice in protest! Albanians sorely need a leadership to take them out of the spiritual dark age they are in, but no one dare go against the tribal taboos. Their complaints and lack are a result of their own inability to do anything for themselves!

ulli

Why are you referring to me as if Poland has done or is doing something wrong to Albanians?

Or do you see no difference between Poles, Croats, Slovenes, Serbs, Macedonians and Russians? We are all Slavs and you think the same of all of us, or what are you saying?

Only point I agree with is that the Serbs in Bosnia & Herzegovina should accept their autonomy and not disrupt the fragile balance that makes the country up, fair enough.

Serbs in Mitrovica, well yes, I also agree, on the other hand, Kosovo Albanians would not be any different if no one recognized Kosovo's UDI, but yes, there is no excuse for the violence that the Serbs were involved in recently.

"Nikitas"; what is your point???? Its known that the Ancient Macedonians were a different ethnic group to "greeks"! Now you're telling me that modern greeks have a right to the so called greek heritage and Macedonians don't have any right to the ancient Macedonian heritage???? Sorry, I don't play your little game!

Until 1912/13 Aegean ( real name Belomorska Makedonia ) Macedonia was Macedonian!!! How about you justify to me the greek takeover of our historic land, the genocide of our people and then talk to me about "historic proof". Macedonians involved in proving their history are somehow lying but greeks involved in wholesale fabrication are not!!! LOL

Greek tactic; get you on the defensive, by questioning your right to the name, ethnicity and so on, thereby, legitimising their claim to Macedonia,while simultaneously de-legitimising ours. For 300 years, Greeks have been trying to destruct the Macedonians.

If Macedonia was Greek, it's govt, would not have offered the old communist, Gligorov, $1 million for the name! They would not have not have had to clear the millenium old Macedonian presence from newly annexed Belomorska Macedonia! Greeks are a sad example of 19C. nation building techniques, carried over into 21st century, and govt, policies teaching them they are "pure race" direct from ancients!

Ratko;to you it's "part of the greater Albanian project"but in reality to everyone else it's Albanians excercising their rights for equality,human rights and promoting democracy.What's wrong will defending yourself against discrimination? What Albanians struggle for ,others enjoy and yet overlook it.That "other country we live in" was part of original Albania before the Slavs invaded from Russia/Ukraine region.If you put it like that, then Albanians were present in our ancestrial lands before you,got it?Now lets move ahead.