Democrats, G17 Plus, demand gov't session

Kostunica is completely right on this respect.

Tadic is either being naive and deceived by his so called EU "friends" or is colluding in the forced dismembermet and partition of Serbia.

For the likes of Smile and Bganon I suggest you understand what UK "friends" mean by the EU "INLUX" (Latin for Lawless) Kosovo mission. These are the questions answers put toards the Foreign Minister in the UK Parliment;

William Hague (Richmond (Yorks), Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the legal basis for the deployment of the EU's civilian mission to Kosovo.

David Miliband (Secretary of State, Foreign & Commonwealth Office)
We are satisfied that the mission is established on a sound legal basis.

The EU's European Security and Defence Policy rule of law mission to Kosovo will be based on the powers in the treaty on EU, drawing on the authority of UN Security Council Resolution 1244 as well as an invitation by the Kosovo government.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2008-02-04a.178912.h


William Hague (Richmond (Yorks), Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the final decision on the (a) date and (b) modalities of the EU mission for Kosovo will be made; and if he will make a statement.

David Miliband (Secretary of State, Foreign & Commonwealth Office)
We are working intensively with our international partners in the EU and UN to bring the Kosovo status process through to rapid completion.

The political decision to deploy the EU's European Security and Defence Policy rule of law mission to Kosovo was taken at the European Council on 14 December 2007. The EU underlined that it stands ready to play a leading role in strengthening stability in the region and in implementing a settlement defining Kosovo's future status.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2008-02-04a.183381.h

Surely you must be able to comprehend that there is a huge deceit going on by the EU with their mission and the first priority of all in Serbia is that its Sovereignity is upheld not sold for promises of 30 pieces of silver !!!

Kostunica was right all the time when claiming that the EU mission in Kosovo is related to Serbia's integration in the EU. He was warning but Tadic had no ears to hear this. I am looking forward seeing Tadic solving this problem that his friends created for him. I just hope that the "political agreement" offered by EU won't be ratified. Well Taidc, I wonder can you look your people in the eyes now.

Princip do you really think it makes any difference as to whether Serbia approves the EU mission or not? Do you think this will stop them?

Serbia's position on Kosovo is well known - it can be repeated for the benefit of Europeans or anybody else in parliament or at the UN. Its not as if something has changed.

I'd also ask you why you agree with creating linkage between Kosovo and Europe? Its my understanding that the previous DSS position (and position supported by most of us) was that one has EU entry has nothing to do with the Kosovo issue. Now some are insisting on linkage. Dont tell me the EU position changed. It was the same before.

Lets re-cap; this all started with (re)naming and shaming of NATO (DSS policy backed by SRS) that culminated in Nikolic's election as speaker and subsequent abandonment by DSS. Now DSS ask for a commitment from DS to sign their document, following the defeat of their candidate at the presidential election. The EU is now the bogeyman. It doesnt take a genius to notice a cynical pattern here of a party desperate to shore up their position.

Lastly I'd ask you personally if you take any other factors into account at all in life excluding sovereignity, with all due respect, that you appear obsessed with and mention all the time. Life (and elections) is about many issues not just one.

If this is about democracy and not electoral strategy of DSS trying to minimise damage of not supporting Tadic in the elections then I have a suggestion - a straightforward referendum on EU membership.

Lets see whether the people believe we should join the EU or not. No leading questions of the type that would not be accepted in any other western country, just a straightforward yes or no. Let the people decide. In theory its nice to say that elected representatives should vote on this issue but in practice its Serbian politicians of the past that got us into this mess in the first place.

Dont think that I'm alone in expressing this opinion in Serbia. Many people are getting increasingly frustrated with being stuck on one issue all of the time.

Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic.

Nikolic very gracefully accepted defeat and was very honourable with his position.

Turning to the government now, it's a mess and that should concern the EU.

To the K-Albanians here.

How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence? How can you become a memeber without the club formally recognising you?

Serbia's path to the EU is there if she wants it but as soon as the K-Albanians declare independence, you automatically self-impose a block to that path. How can the EU offer an alternate path if your existance is not formally recognised?

With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded.

I am starting to consider this being the plan all along. Image the K-Albanians having unrestricted access to the EU? With 70% unemployment - you can almost guarantee a mass exodus. Images of boats full of Albanians heading to Italy a few years back comes to mind.

So what's the plan? Albanians declare independence, a few states recognise it. The Albanians feel happy. To some extend, the Serbs know that Kosovo is a legal part of its territory so the status quo remains, except K-Albanians will probably never become an EU member, especially if Serbia decides to join.

Did I miss something? I'd like to hear a response from the K-Albanian side.

Bganon,

the linkage was not mine nor that of those who warn of the mission creep which happens with all EU policy. In fact the EU are being quite clear about their objective - implementing Ahtisaari i.e. dismembering Serbia.

The linkage is that of the EU who are imposing their mission with no legality - it is the EU who are disrespecting Serbia's sovereignity by alluding that they (along with the US) know "what is best" for Serbia. Or did I miss something Bganon that you have not - did the EU consult Serbia and obtain the UN Sc's consent for this mission ?

Interesting that you put forth a referenda but clearly condition it;

"No leading questions of the type that would not be accepted in any other western country, just a straightforward yes or no."

- what could you be alluding to other then the clear distinction that conditional for Serbia's accession is it's forced partition an acceptance that it must be subjegated and docile in it's partition. FYI Refenda questions are actually very ofetn in teh westleading indeed and quite often if the "wrong" choice is made then usually it is asked again until it passes - just in case the masses didnt quite comprehend the dictat!

Bganon,
I am all for signing the agreement for agreement of agreemnt SAA so long as the EU first clarifies that it upholds and respects Serbia and its sovereignity prior to signing up this Faustian contract! It is deceitful to sign an agreement and suggest its respects the state but within the month many members are illegally recognising illegal declarations and hope that in time you will just put up and shut up if your promised 30 pieces of silver in teh future!

Tadic said;

“We do not wish anyone harm, but we are asking for Serbia and its people to be respected,”
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=02&dd=04&nav_id=47449

Yet here is the EU deceitfully sending internal agreements last Friday to be agreed Monday in this illegal mission and in so many ways disrespecting Serbia's electorate as really what the EU are saying is they don't care if Tadic or Nikolic won they are going to do this irrespective. I think this should be ringing alarm bells in many peoples mind - friends indeed...

Although the EU encouraged
Tadic in his campaign to become Serbias next president
at the same time they created
a false dawn for all those who believed that Serbia's vital interests in Kosovo would've been considered.
Instead by manipulating the
provisos of article 10 UN1244
they've decided to send a large number of civil administrators into Kosovo thus legitimatising the partition of the country.The
next steps taken by the Serbian leadership will be
crucial not only for Serbia but for the whole region

Nick KS,

"…Do you think Serbia should keep Kosova under its sovereignty…"

Yes.

"…Do you think Kosova should become an independent country, …"

No.

"…allowing its own people and the people of Serbia to move closer to the European Union and share a peaceful and prosperous future?…."

If all you want is to become part of EU and EU seriously wish us all of good, then wait just a little bit longer that EU accept us as a member(s) with a full rights. Borders would be irrelevant then, wouldn't they?

Kostunica should forget about Kosovo. It is more important for Serbia to join the EU.

"Tadic is either being naive and deceived by his so called EU "friends" or is colluding in the forced dismembermet and partition of Serbia. "

It is nothing like the above Pricip.
Unlike you and despite all rethoric, Tadic has a comprehensive and realistic grasp of the big picture and of the prdicament Serbia is in at the moment. Furthermore he also represents all those Serbs that share his vision and recently elected him.

Eventual (be it very reluctant) acceptance of this opens Serbia's doors to EU wide open. The alternative? Well I suppose you and Kostunica will enlighten us.

Kindest regards, Dardan, Prishtina

Princip,


1. Of course there will be an EU mission in Kosova. Of course Tadic knows that Serbia has lost Kosova, and he is doing the best he can, to get as much as he can, while he can. He does not need Kostunica to tell him that this EU agreement offer is a pain killer for the headache which will come anyways.

2. Of course the existing international legal instruments recognize Kosova as a part of Serbia and by implication, any act by either the Kosova Albanians or the international community to the contrary would be considered illegal. Yes it is, as a matter of law, illegal, but it is simply the MORALLY RIGHT THING TO DO (and yes i know that might sound naive, particularly to the ‘intellectually superior Serbs’ like you but I am past caring what you think about us). We are all human beings and what should guide us is not always what was written somewhere, sometime, and for some reason, but what is morally right.

3. Now, my question to you as a fellow human being is:

- Do you think Serbia should keep Kosova under its sovereignty, alienating practically all of its inhabitants and remaining in a constant state of isolation, conflict and strife, just so that it may on an annual basis celebrate a historic battle that happened here centuries ago, which it can celebrate anyways in an independent Kosova?

or;

- Do you think Kosova should become an independent country, thus allowing its own people and the people of Serbia to move closer to the European Union and share a peaceful and prosperous future?

Answer my question please.

The EU should ensure that there is no declaration of 'independence' as in fact it would be a declaration of 'dependence' on the international community.

Until Kosovo has an agreement with Serbia and the international community for a form of strong autonomy, Kosovo should continue to be dependent on the UN and any other international body that wishes to stick its oar in (such as the EU).

As you albanians sit & cheer for the US, just remember the power Kostunica has & you can thank the US for putting him in power!

Furthermore, should by a miracle from above the EU's mission enter into Kosovo, not only will they violate International law, but that will PROVE that Kosovo cannot & will not become independant.

Independance is the ability to govern yourself - this is something THEY really don't want!

CCCC

Bganon,

" … not be accepted in any other western country….Let the people decide…."

Hmm, it seems that governments in the western countries don't like referendums very much, people might choose "wrongly". Are you following developments around new EU constitution, oops, I meant reform…?

"….just a straightforward yes or no…"

A bit to simplistic question for a such complicated agreement. Wouldn't you like to know what exactly I you signing? Are you aware that in the recent years new members are treated very differently then it used to be. There is no more standard procedure with a same rights and obligations for all members. Now it is on the case to case basis. New members don't have full rights, there are all sorts of restrictions. Serbia especially should read small print very carefully…

"….Serbian politicians of the past that got us into this mess in the first place…."

What would you do in their place?

To the K-Albanians here.

How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence? How can you become a memeber without the club formally recognising you?

Serbia's path to the EU is there if she wants it but as soon as the K-Albanians declare independence, you automatically self-impose a block to that path. How can the EU offer an alternate path if your existance is not formally recognised?

With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded.

I am starting to consider this being the plan all along. Image the K-Albanians having unrestricted access to the EU? With 70% unemployment - you can almost guarantee a mass exodus. Images of boats full of Albanians heading to Italy a few years back comes to mind.

So what's the plan? Albanians declare independence, a few states recognise it. The Albanians feel happy. To some extend, the Serbs know that Kosovo is a legal part of its territory so the status quo remains, except K-Albanians will probably never become an EU member, especially if Serbia decides to join.

Did I miss something? I'd like to hear a response from the K-Albanian side.
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

I would say majority if not all albanians, at least the ones i know, would still choose that anyday rather than remain part of Serbia.

It is true that albanians in Kosovo want a better life, jobs, security, prosperity, but not at the expense of independence. We will sacrifice eveything so that we get independence from serbia. Some people fail to understand how strong this resolve is, and they confuse it with wanting of jobs, or money or whatever....

Dear Serbian People,

Reading your commnets in english version makes me verry worried!!!
But I Just checked comments on the same article but in serbian version - thanks good! Majority of your people do not share the same opinion, especially not Princip's - as you JUST managed to show few days before -
Lets hope the entire region incl. Serbia will have better days -

BBB

"Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic."

Amen to your comment.
Do you think you can threaten K-Albanians with your suicide attempt?

Since you are at that you also can enter a hunger strike in order to make us change our position.

Princip

Those are the political realities now that the EU has slapped Serbia across the face just after an election that supported it.

What the politicians decide to do is up to them but the common interest should be protecting Kosovo over anything else.

Sidi - Good luck with "ANYTHING BUT SERBIA" and keep hoping. Hamas in Palestine have a similar stance but without negotiating a solution both Hamas and K-Albanians have nothing but hope.

miri, that's not a threat. Just the political reality that the EU must consider before following ill considered ideas.

shqarthi, never is a long time and I can assure you that Serbia will never recognise an independent Kosovo and neither will Russia. Both Romania and Cyprus have also used the word "never".

You are correct that Kosovo needs economic help but in that case you would need business people sent to Kosovo. Instead you are getting police, judges and soldiers! What does that indicate? Well, I can only assume that Kosovo is not in a healthy state and no-where near the economic and investment stage.

In answer to your question, if Kosovo remained a part of Serbia then we would enter the EU together and prosper. Kosovo will have the highest level of Autonomy and you can rule your regions. Serbia will have access to their churches and historical sites.

Will Serbia fund Kosovo? Not sure but the EU will fund the development of both Kosovo and Serbia. Remember, Serbia is being developed economically now. That's why business people are going there rather than police and judges.

Now my point is, a quasi Kosovo has no hope of joining the EU. Has that been the plan all along? EU wants Serbians but not Albanians? I say that because that's the message I'm getting!

The so-called Princip at comment #16 is a joker clearly upset at my comments.

Thankfully it would seem that Tadic is coming to his senses in suggesting that any EU mission must be accepted in the UN SC. The UK govt. might be willing to act irresponsibly along with a "few" others but the great majority will not - Tadic needs to understand that the EU is divided upon this so called mission which has been accepted but many have grudgingly and on condition of water tight legality.

Bganon, I do not mean to be disrespectful and want your discussion so that you fully analyse fully the implications of Serbia not being aware of the duplicitous nature of so called "friends". Lets be clear when I suggest duplicitousness this is not a slur on the people of such states but the once more the "few". In fact for many people within these states they too feel they have been lied and spun and are totally disenfranschised democratically.

More over I want Serbia to stand up for itself and to be proud of all that it has achived over the last 8 years and to carry on with a new vigour and does not need to be labelled and carry the baggage of those before. Tadic as President of Serbia 2008 onwards needs to find his backbone on this issue (as he seems to be doing). Tadic has it in his place to form a united position to drive Serbia forward with pride and dignity;

“If you want to be respected by others the great thing is to respect yourself. Only by that, only by self-respect will you compel others to respect you.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

Too many Serbs are in a haze, it is over! Kosovo is lost, you made sure of that Sunday. This opens the door for more territory to split. Kosovo is/was the red line, it has just turned yellow. Russia was ready to back you, now you will become a patch work of mini states or minorities in others. Dark days have arrived. I said Tadic would win, not because I wanted that but as a warning. Serbs are not savvy to Western style politics and you have bought in to the lies. I will pray for you. Stand or fall

To ZK UK

Rather than go through a point by point analysis of the largely exaggerated issues you raise, I will answer your post with one phrase only. I hope this gives you a snapshot of how we Albanians think about the Kosova situation: ANYTHING BUT SERBIA!

Now draw your own conclusions.

What SErbs don't realize now that they are in a sweet position to get any help they want from the world. They just don't realize it. And getting the help doesn't mean accepting to be in Eu now! They are not even demanding anything...free visasa forever for everyone, economic help, treaties etc etc. They thinkt he whole world is against htem but don't realize that everyone is trying to help them! GReece is the strongest country int he Balkans, then why not ask for help in every respect? It is nothing of shame or pride, GReece already has a plan to invest int he Balkans. Why not do it with your "orthodox brothers", like you guys like to put it? It is nothing of shame of asking from Eu and Us as well since this countries have paid a lot to other Eastern Eu countries that did not have Serbia's problems at all, they give to the world, to Africa etc billions. If you don't ask for anything, you know who will get that money? We Albanians. And not only financial help, scientific for the universities, intructions for the admin to work better. Last year the Serb government paid $30 million for consultants. You think that everyone is against you, but you don't realize that evryone wants you to move forward for the better.

"How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence?"
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

ZK, first of all, 'never' is a very strong word to use, things change. Second, some very important countries agree with Independence and will recognize it.

"With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded."
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

I am taking your statistics for granted, just to answer you and not start another argument. This is not a thing against Independence, or wanting to join Europe. If things are bad on the economy etc, then work must be done so they get better. Again, things change. Statistics change. It is exactly why Europe should come in Kosovo/a. And not only there, but in all the region.

Question for you: Hypothetically, if Kosovo remained in Serbia, how would it deal with Albanians? For example: what investments would the Serbian government do in Kosovo? Would it invest 15% of its resources there? If yes (I am going into the realm of pure fantasy here), would Nikolic and Kostunica say why are you giving money to Albanians when it could be spent somewhere else for the Serbs? How much electorate would they gain by saying that?
I am just thinking of the serbian side. The bottom line is: Do you want Albanians?
For the Albanian side these questions seem weird. For Albanians the possibility of continuing to be dependent/hindered by Serbia does not exist.

Bganon,

Now do we choose to believe that Serbian statements to refuse SAA will stop Kosovo being recognised? Even the birds on the trees know this wont stop the unilateral decleration. The only thing it will do will be to delay EU accession still further.

-No, this refusal wouldn’t stop Kosovo independence but should we just accept every kind of rubbish that they offer us. Remember that EU did not even approve signing SAA, not because of Kostunica but because of Nederland. I have no doubts that Kostunica would oppose to this either but it is clear that they are trying to buy us anyhow. Now they proposed some “political deal”. Do you maybe know what political deal is? I have no idea. The only thing I know that they offered some visa relaxation without saying what that relaxation means. Tell me why they didn’t propose SAA or that political agreement much earlier. Why to wait so long. Well, I honestly think that they were waiting Kosovo status resolving. The EU technocrats use Kosovo as a sort of blackmail. What do we get now? Absolutely nothing. They will recognise Kosovo, we will sign this famous political deal and by the end of the year nothing will change. Next year Serbia will maybe be allowed to travel without any visas (but I personally doubt) and if that happens then it will be finally clear that visa requirement for so long was because of the Albanians. Anyway, as I said I even don’t believe in visa abolishment for us.

Next I would like to point out and to ask for your opinion, what will you say if our entrance in EU is directly linked with the recognition of Kosovo by Serbia? Do you still think that Serbia should recognise Kosovo in favour for the EU? I have no doubts that Serbia’s integration in the EU will be conditioned with recognition of Kosovo. Kostunica might be a bit weird but he is certainly not a fool and I am sure that he predicted this. This small political deal offered by the EU is just a test how far or how low we can go to take everything they ask. If we accept such small thing such as that political deal in order to smoothly accept EU mission, then they will buy us for Serbia’s signature on independence for even smaller thing. Why not, they can do now what ever they like when our president said he won’t do anything to protect Serbia’s sovereignty. He did not try even to bluff.

Bganon, I think you will find our positions are closer then you realise.

"I ask you again Princip do you think a decleration from parliament or refusal to sign SAA will stop some EU member states from recognising Kosovo. "

- “If you want to be respected by others the great thing is to respect yourself. Only by that, only by self-respect will you compel others to respect you.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

In reply to your question I do believe Serbia not signing up until it gets a clear indication that Serbia's sovereignity is respected sends a message to the EU. Bganon understand I do want Serbia to sign but NOT while the EU "few" continue to disrespect and undermine Serbia's sovereignity. This is what Kostunica is demanding.

Bganon, do you not have self respect for yourself? Clearly you rebuke my points which is great since you are sticking up for your point and that gains respect! Now I ask you what is different for Serbia to do the same? Why should it not insist from the EU that in signing the agreement for agreement upon the SAA agreement but on very clear grounds that in doing so EU members respect Serbia's sovereignity and will continue to do so?

Lets face it, it's not the SAA agreement that EU gave DSS a false belief they would get - yes its a good step in the right direction but ultimately SAA will not be signed and never was going to be signed until Mladic is in the Hague irrespective of him being in Serbia or not - that I am sure you will be in full agreement with!

Do you Bganon believe that the EU mission is not a clear undermining of Serbia's Sovereignity ?

What did the EU say about UN in Kosovo in 2004 ?

"We could not be in favor of anything that ran counter to the proper implementation of [UN Security Council] Resolution 1244, which governs Kosovo's status for the moment, and that implies the authority of UNMIK [the UN Mission in Kosovo] running throughout the province of Kosovo. Obviously, in the light of events last week, there will be some discussion about how best to resolve the differences between ethnic communities in Kosovo, but we have no change in our policies at present,"
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/03/ae804859-41b8-4780-8bd0-7dc609836788.html

You also ask;
"Wasnt it Kostunica who signed the previous feasability study agreement with the EU? Why didnt he refuse to sign then?

When exactly was this signed? Could it be it was before the EU decided on the 14th December to publically annouce its illegal mission undermining Serbia's sovereigty ? Look into the timeline of events and comprehend that Kostunica has been making this point since the announcement of an illegal EU mission because he realised rightly what was at stake! It is the EU who have forced this upon Serbia and in doing so show great disrespect for Serbia's sovereignity and in fact for its electorate since they did not want to be transparent and let the Serbians know on the 28th that they care less for who ever wins as they have their objective seeing as Serbia is so easily subjegated and easily pushed any which way it deceides.

Thankfully even Tadic is now realising that many in EU are acting Duplictly and without transparency with this "illegal mission". Tadic insists it must be sanctioned by the UN i.e. uphold Serbain sovereignty. To give strength to this message Tadic must let the EU know that Serbia is not playing games it wants to be an "equal" partner but this means ALL of Serbia in the EU or Serbia undersatnds that it is not being respected as an equal but can be cut and partitioned willy nilly!

Bganon, surely it is right that Serbia stand off from signing this agreement of agreement upon agreement of SAA while the EU acts duplictly ?

This is not about not wanting to sign and carry on the the EU path but in doing so Serbia insists that when the EU signs this document it binds all EU members to continue in respecting and upholding Serbia's Sovereignity!

Do you not agree?

Or do you think that the "few" EU who force behind the scenes while Serbia's election was still to be deceided a mission that violates Serbia's sovereignity irrespective of a Tadic win is something that Serbia should just roll over to and give in to any demands ?

Bganon, Serbia must respect its Sovereignity if it is to be respected by others! Thus YES Serbia should rightfully question signing and demand clarity from the EU to ensure continued Sovereignity!

Do you now cmprehend the point or are you still of the opinion that a bully/thief will respect you if you just give them what they demand and might not ask you for more next time?

Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic....
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 17:46)
Wait a minute. Not so fast. Nikolić forming a new government with Koštunica as Prime Minister? No thanks. As you have seen on Milošević hand over Hague, or even now during second round of Presidential election, Koštunica only think to become e life-time Prime Minister. This is what he thinks. That’s what is fighting for. Even the annex, that he proposed Tadić, was a Kostunica’s way to condition the Tadić support for his ego for power. Everyone now in Serbia knows who stands for what; Tadić for EU and Nikolić for strong relation of Serbia with a natural friend Russia. Only Koštunica is a mystery politician.
New election would be the right think to do and making sure that Vojislav Koštunica’s DSS to be voted off. Nikolić has a moral right to govern this country.

I ask you again Princip do you think a decleration from parliament or refusal to sign SAA will stop some EU member states from recognising Kosovo.

This is the nub. I dont care about showing defiance. I care about real results. If I believed that refusing to sign would help it could be an option but the fact is its simply DSS policy in trying to shore up a weaker position - trying to put the ball in Tadic's court. Surely you cant believe that Serbia's politicians are all completely principled and that they only have the good of Kosovo at heart whilst the EU are all bad and wish Serbia ill. Its an incredibly simplistic view and takes no account of Serbian daily politics. Kosovo has been abused for years as an issue - those to the right and to the left agree in the Serbian context on this. Now do we choose to believe that Serbian statements to refuse SAA will stop Kosovo being recognised? Even the birds on the trees know this wont stop the unilateral decleration. The only thing it will do will be to delay EU accession still further.

Linkage was not yours. Excuse me but you are linking the issues. I have not seen anywhere in the SAA agreement where it says Kosovo must be independent. Again why now the objection to the EU. Wasnt it Kostunica who signed the previous feasability study agreement with the EU? Why didnt he refuse to sign then? Why werent you linking the recognition of Kosovo with that agreement? Dont tell me that you thought EU countries such as the UK have changed position. If anything less EU countries are for Kosovo independence today.

So the democracy argument extends from a decision taken at cabinet / government level, to one that should be made in Parliament but the people are not allowed to decide in a referendum? That sounds like loading the dice to me. Fine if its not about democracy then lets have a cabinet decision and not bother with parliament.

Stevan obviously in a referendum on the SAA both sides would debate the document. And obviously DSS would lose the argument because there is nothing in the agreement that supports Kosovo independence. That may sound like I'm being unfair but if you think about it, it is ridiculous that some political parties are trying to tie two completely seperate issues.

For the first time I agree with Kostunica and… with you Princip. Serbia should, definitely, not sign this agreement with EU, and continue its path, original path, without trying to close the EU and the World’s eyes, pretending as a democrat country…

Princip you gave me more of a politicians answer. I asked you whether you thought Serbia not signing the agreement with the Eu would stop the EU from sending its mission? I dont think it will. I'd appreciate a straight answer from you.

The only message we will be sending by not signing is that further EU integration will be delayed. I have had enough of the delays. In Serbia there seems to be a delay for one thing or another all the time. I support action, not sleeping at the wheel (or the armchair in Kostunica's case).

You know self respect is a moot point. Personally it doesnt matter to me whether a person has self respect or not (its none of my business). The thing that impresses me is whether one has the interest of one's country in mind. Its easy to respect oneself and to have no respect for anybody else around you.

'Do you Bganon believe that the EU mission is not a clear undermining of Serbia's Sovereignity ? '

Yes, in theory that sounds fine. In practice its also a matter of days or weeks before Kosovo declares independence. Thats a clear breach of Serbian soverignty - does that mean I think we should sent the whole Serbian army and police force in to put down the rebellion? Shoot them all if necessary. NO it does not. In theory such action might be right, according to laws governing nation states etc but that doesnt mean in practice it should be applied does it?

I dont care about what should be right in theory, or wishful thinking. I care about reality and the results we can really get. You wont find me nostalgically rueing the past diplomatic battle lost, or shaking my fist when nobody else gives a damn, because I'd be working flat out to ensure the next battle is won.

The Serbian Milosevic government practically signed away soveriegnty over Kosovo in Kumanovo. In THEORY they did not but in reality they did. They let foreign troops occupy Kosovo. Ok I say we can fight for Kosovo to remain in Serbia - as the best thing for all its people but the reality is that the majority dont believe it.

What would you have me do, walk around in a parallel reality where in theory, legally everything is one way but in reality its another. I am above all a realist.

That doesnt mean laying down when somebody tries to rob me but if he has a gun to my head, am I expected to argue with him. 'In theory Mr robber you have no right to rob me, kindly remove your gun and respect my right not to be robbed'.

Its ridiculous, you arent suggesting that because I value my life I deserve to be robbed surely?

Bgnanon,
I have to give it to you.
Your comment #4 is one of the best that I have read.
I know that you don't need my appraisal but rarely happen to read a comment so concise and realistic in a site where most people just spill their bitterness about what is going on while distorting everything .

It looks like Kostunica has served his term already. This Serbian givernment should go down and voters should go and vote for a new one.
Last elections have shown that Serbs will vote more in favour of DS than any other option.
Time for Kostunica and his supporters in minority in here has come to an end.He has sighned the agreement with Russia and made probably plenty of money. After all, thats what is all about in Yugo politics.
Of course, this has nothing to do with Kosova since this is a done deal.Serbia does not want K-Albanians not even K-Serbs.

Princip I appreciate the respect - and return it. But I have to say that you didnt answer the points I raised.

Pride alone will solve nothing, you have to use offer people solutions. You have to offer them a future - that is what the EU represents (falsely or not) to some people in Serbia. I'd say in the last 15 years or so Serbia stood up for itself in that proud way you admire and yet lost almost every single diplomatic or military battle that came (leaving aside who was to blame for what, that is still extraordinarily bad).

What do you say to that?
Are you proud of defeat? OK sometimes one can go down fighting for something they believe, sometimes thats not a bad thing, but every time? Thats when the alarm bells start ringing, thats when you have to take a hard look at the way decisions are made. Thats when you have to take a different approach.

You mention the way that Serbia needs to be aware of its 'friends' intentions, inferring the EU. But come on, Serbia remembers how its friends Greece and Russia acted during the break up of Jugoslavija. When it came to the crunch Serbia was alone. Russia and Greece look after their own interests - which is (guess what!) normal. Serbs are a cynical bunch and most are hardly likely to believe that the EU are going to make them millionaires. On the other hand the EU is the only game in town, Jugoslavija doesnt exist - there is no third way anymore. The closest we get to that is being in the EU and having a special relationship with Russia - if we are lucky.

Its time to stop messing about, kicking a screaming about one thing and another. We can say clearly we oppose Kosovo independence and sign the SAA.

Kostunica should forget about Kosovo. It is more important for Serbia to join the EU.

Princip,


1. Of course there will be an EU mission in Kosova. Of course Tadic knows that Serbia has lost Kosova, and he is doing the best he can, to get as much as he can, while he can. He does not need Kostunica to tell him that this EU agreement offer is a pain killer for the headache which will come anyways.

2. Of course the existing international legal instruments recognize Kosova as a part of Serbia and by implication, any act by either the Kosova Albanians or the international community to the contrary would be considered illegal. Yes it is, as a matter of law, illegal, but it is simply the MORALLY RIGHT THING TO DO (and yes i know that might sound naive, particularly to the ‘intellectually superior Serbs’ like you but I am past caring what you think about us). We are all human beings and what should guide us is not always what was written somewhere, sometime, and for some reason, but what is morally right.

3. Now, my question to you as a fellow human being is:

- Do you think Serbia should keep Kosova under its sovereignty, alienating practically all of its inhabitants and remaining in a constant state of isolation, conflict and strife, just so that it may on an annual basis celebrate a historic battle that happened here centuries ago, which it can celebrate anyways in an independent Kosova?

or;

- Do you think Kosova should become an independent country, thus allowing its own people and the people of Serbia to move closer to the European Union and share a peaceful and prosperous future?

Answer my question please.

"Tadic is either being naive and deceived by his so called EU "friends" or is colluding in the forced dismembermet and partition of Serbia. "

It is nothing like the above Pricip.
Unlike you and despite all rethoric, Tadic has a comprehensive and realistic grasp of the big picture and of the prdicament Serbia is in at the moment. Furthermore he also represents all those Serbs that share his vision and recently elected him.

Eventual (be it very reluctant) acceptance of this opens Serbia's doors to EU wide open. The alternative? Well I suppose you and Kostunica will enlighten us.

Kindest regards, Dardan, Prishtina

"Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic."

Amen to your comment.
Do you think you can threaten K-Albanians with your suicide attempt?

Since you are at that you also can enter a hunger strike in order to make us change our position.

Dear Serbian People,

Reading your commnets in english version makes me verry worried!!!
But I Just checked comments on the same article but in serbian version - thanks good! Majority of your people do not share the same opinion, especially not Princip's - as you JUST managed to show few days before -
Lets hope the entire region incl. Serbia will have better days -

BBB

To ZK UK

Rather than go through a point by point analysis of the largely exaggerated issues you raise, I will answer your post with one phrase only. I hope this gives you a snapshot of how we Albanians think about the Kosova situation: ANYTHING BUT SERBIA!

Now draw your own conclusions.

"How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence?"
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

ZK, first of all, 'never' is a very strong word to use, things change. Second, some very important countries agree with Independence and will recognize it.

"With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded."
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

I am taking your statistics for granted, just to answer you and not start another argument. This is not a thing against Independence, or wanting to join Europe. If things are bad on the economy etc, then work must be done so they get better. Again, things change. Statistics change. It is exactly why Europe should come in Kosovo/a. And not only there, but in all the region.

Question for you: Hypothetically, if Kosovo remained in Serbia, how would it deal with Albanians? For example: what investments would the Serbian government do in Kosovo? Would it invest 15% of its resources there? If yes (I am going into the realm of pure fantasy here), would Nikolic and Kostunica say why are you giving money to Albanians when it could be spent somewhere else for the Serbs? How much electorate would they gain by saying that?
I am just thinking of the serbian side. The bottom line is: Do you want Albanians?
For the Albanian side these questions seem weird. For Albanians the possibility of continuing to be dependent/hindered by Serbia does not exist.

To the K-Albanians here.

How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence? How can you become a memeber without the club formally recognising you?

Serbia's path to the EU is there if she wants it but as soon as the K-Albanians declare independence, you automatically self-impose a block to that path. How can the EU offer an alternate path if your existance is not formally recognised?

With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded.

I am starting to consider this being the plan all along. Image the K-Albanians having unrestricted access to the EU? With 70% unemployment - you can almost guarantee a mass exodus. Images of boats full of Albanians heading to Italy a few years back comes to mind.

So what's the plan? Albanians declare independence, a few states recognise it. The Albanians feel happy. To some extend, the Serbs know that Kosovo is a legal part of its territory so the status quo remains, except K-Albanians will probably never become an EU member, especially if Serbia decides to join.

Did I miss something? I'd like to hear a response from the K-Albanian side.
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 16:01)

I would say majority if not all albanians, at least the ones i know, would still choose that anyday rather than remain part of Serbia.

It is true that albanians in Kosovo want a better life, jobs, security, prosperity, but not at the expense of independence. We will sacrifice eveything so that we get independence from serbia. Some people fail to understand how strong this resolve is, and they confuse it with wanting of jobs, or money or whatever....

It looks like Kostunica has served his term already. This Serbian givernment should go down and voters should go and vote for a new one.
Last elections have shown that Serbs will vote more in favour of DS than any other option.
Time for Kostunica and his supporters in minority in here has come to an end.He has sighned the agreement with Russia and made probably plenty of money. After all, thats what is all about in Yugo politics.
Of course, this has nothing to do with Kosova since this is a done deal.Serbia does not want K-Albanians not even K-Serbs.

What SErbs don't realize now that they are in a sweet position to get any help they want from the world. They just don't realize it. And getting the help doesn't mean accepting to be in Eu now! They are not even demanding anything...free visasa forever for everyone, economic help, treaties etc etc. They thinkt he whole world is against htem but don't realize that everyone is trying to help them! GReece is the strongest country int he Balkans, then why not ask for help in every respect? It is nothing of shame or pride, GReece already has a plan to invest int he Balkans. Why not do it with your "orthodox brothers", like you guys like to put it? It is nothing of shame of asking from Eu and Us as well since this countries have paid a lot to other Eastern Eu countries that did not have Serbia's problems at all, they give to the world, to Africa etc billions. If you don't ask for anything, you know who will get that money? We Albanians. And not only financial help, scientific for the universities, intructions for the admin to work better. Last year the Serb government paid $30 million for consultants. You think that everyone is against you, but you don't realize that evryone wants you to move forward for the better.

Bgnanon,
I have to give it to you.
Your comment #4 is one of the best that I have read.
I know that you don't need my appraisal but rarely happen to read a comment so concise and realistic in a site where most people just spill their bitterness about what is going on while distorting everything .

Princip do you really think it makes any difference as to whether Serbia approves the EU mission or not? Do you think this will stop them?

Serbia's position on Kosovo is well known - it can be repeated for the benefit of Europeans or anybody else in parliament or at the UN. Its not as if something has changed.

I'd also ask you why you agree with creating linkage between Kosovo and Europe? Its my understanding that the previous DSS position (and position supported by most of us) was that one has EU entry has nothing to do with the Kosovo issue. Now some are insisting on linkage. Dont tell me the EU position changed. It was the same before.

Lets re-cap; this all started with (re)naming and shaming of NATO (DSS policy backed by SRS) that culminated in Nikolic's election as speaker and subsequent abandonment by DSS. Now DSS ask for a commitment from DS to sign their document, following the defeat of their candidate at the presidential election. The EU is now the bogeyman. It doesnt take a genius to notice a cynical pattern here of a party desperate to shore up their position.

Lastly I'd ask you personally if you take any other factors into account at all in life excluding sovereignity, with all due respect, that you appear obsessed with and mention all the time. Life (and elections) is about many issues not just one.

If this is about democracy and not electoral strategy of DSS trying to minimise damage of not supporting Tadic in the elections then I have a suggestion - a straightforward referendum on EU membership.

Lets see whether the people believe we should join the EU or not. No leading questions of the type that would not be accepted in any other western country, just a straightforward yes or no. Let the people decide. In theory its nice to say that elected representatives should vote on this issue but in practice its Serbian politicians of the past that got us into this mess in the first place.

Dont think that I'm alone in expressing this opinion in Serbia. Many people are getting increasingly frustrated with being stuck on one issue all of the time.

Too many Serbs are in a haze, it is over! Kosovo is lost, you made sure of that Sunday. This opens the door for more territory to split. Kosovo is/was the red line, it has just turned yellow. Russia was ready to back you, now you will become a patch work of mini states or minorities in others. Dark days have arrived. I said Tadic would win, not because I wanted that but as a warning. Serbs are not savvy to Western style politics and you have bought in to the lies. I will pray for you. Stand or fall

Kostunica is completely right on this respect.

Tadic is either being naive and deceived by his so called EU "friends" or is colluding in the forced dismembermet and partition of Serbia.

For the likes of Smile and Bganon I suggest you understand what UK "friends" mean by the EU "INLUX" (Latin for Lawless) Kosovo mission. These are the questions answers put toards the Foreign Minister in the UK Parliment;

William Hague (Richmond (Yorks), Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the legal basis for the deployment of the EU's civilian mission to Kosovo.

David Miliband (Secretary of State, Foreign & Commonwealth Office)
We are satisfied that the mission is established on a sound legal basis.

The EU's European Security and Defence Policy rule of law mission to Kosovo will be based on the powers in the treaty on EU, drawing on the authority of UN Security Council Resolution 1244 as well as an invitation by the Kosovo government.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2008-02-04a.178912.h


William Hague (Richmond (Yorks), Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the final decision on the (a) date and (b) modalities of the EU mission for Kosovo will be made; and if he will make a statement.

David Miliband (Secretary of State, Foreign & Commonwealth Office)
We are working intensively with our international partners in the EU and UN to bring the Kosovo status process through to rapid completion.

The political decision to deploy the EU's European Security and Defence Policy rule of law mission to Kosovo was taken at the European Council on 14 December 2007. The EU underlined that it stands ready to play a leading role in strengthening stability in the region and in implementing a settlement defining Kosovo's future status.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2008-02-04a.183381.h

Surely you must be able to comprehend that there is a huge deceit going on by the EU with their mission and the first priority of all in Serbia is that its Sovereignity is upheld not sold for promises of 30 pieces of silver !!!

I ask you again Princip do you think a decleration from parliament or refusal to sign SAA will stop some EU member states from recognising Kosovo.

This is the nub. I dont care about showing defiance. I care about real results. If I believed that refusing to sign would help it could be an option but the fact is its simply DSS policy in trying to shore up a weaker position - trying to put the ball in Tadic's court. Surely you cant believe that Serbia's politicians are all completely principled and that they only have the good of Kosovo at heart whilst the EU are all bad and wish Serbia ill. Its an incredibly simplistic view and takes no account of Serbian daily politics. Kosovo has been abused for years as an issue - those to the right and to the left agree in the Serbian context on this. Now do we choose to believe that Serbian statements to refuse SAA will stop Kosovo being recognised? Even the birds on the trees know this wont stop the unilateral decleration. The only thing it will do will be to delay EU accession still further.

Linkage was not yours. Excuse me but you are linking the issues. I have not seen anywhere in the SAA agreement where it says Kosovo must be independent. Again why now the objection to the EU. Wasnt it Kostunica who signed the previous feasability study agreement with the EU? Why didnt he refuse to sign then? Why werent you linking the recognition of Kosovo with that agreement? Dont tell me that you thought EU countries such as the UK have changed position. If anything less EU countries are for Kosovo independence today.

So the democracy argument extends from a decision taken at cabinet / government level, to one that should be made in Parliament but the people are not allowed to decide in a referendum? That sounds like loading the dice to me. Fine if its not about democracy then lets have a cabinet decision and not bother with parliament.

Stevan obviously in a referendum on the SAA both sides would debate the document. And obviously DSS would lose the argument because there is nothing in the agreement that supports Kosovo independence. That may sound like I'm being unfair but if you think about it, it is ridiculous that some political parties are trying to tie two completely seperate issues.

For the first time I agree with Kostunica and… with you Princip. Serbia should, definitely, not sign this agreement with EU, and continue its path, original path, without trying to close the EU and the World’s eyes, pretending as a democrat country…

Kostunica was right all the time when claiming that the EU mission in Kosovo is related to Serbia's integration in the EU. He was warning but Tadic had no ears to hear this. I am looking forward seeing Tadic solving this problem that his friends created for him. I just hope that the "political agreement" offered by EU won't be ratified. Well Taidc, I wonder can you look your people in the eyes now.

Nick KS,

"…Do you think Serbia should keep Kosova under its sovereignty…"

Yes.

"…Do you think Kosova should become an independent country, …"

No.

"…allowing its own people and the people of Serbia to move closer to the European Union and share a peaceful and prosperous future?…."

If all you want is to become part of EU and EU seriously wish us all of good, then wait just a little bit longer that EU accept us as a member(s) with a full rights. Borders would be irrelevant then, wouldn't they?

Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic....
(ZK UK, 5 February 2008 17:46)
Wait a minute. Not so fast. Nikolić forming a new government with Koštunica as Prime Minister? No thanks. As you have seen on Milošević hand over Hague, or even now during second round of Presidential election, Koštunica only think to become e life-time Prime Minister. This is what he thinks. That’s what is fighting for. Even the annex, that he proposed Tadić, was a Kostunica’s way to condition the Tadić support for his ego for power. Everyone now in Serbia knows who stands for what; Tadić for EU and Nikolić for strong relation of Serbia with a natural friend Russia. Only Koštunica is a mystery politician.
New election would be the right think to do and making sure that Vojislav Koštunica’s DSS to be voted off. Nikolić has a moral right to govern this country.

Bganon,

the linkage was not mine nor that of those who warn of the mission creep which happens with all EU policy. In fact the EU are being quite clear about their objective - implementing Ahtisaari i.e. dismembering Serbia.

The linkage is that of the EU who are imposing their mission with no legality - it is the EU who are disrespecting Serbia's sovereignity by alluding that they (along with the US) know "what is best" for Serbia. Or did I miss something Bganon that you have not - did the EU consult Serbia and obtain the UN Sc's consent for this mission ?

Interesting that you put forth a referenda but clearly condition it;

"No leading questions of the type that would not be accepted in any other western country, just a straightforward yes or no."

- what could you be alluding to other then the clear distinction that conditional for Serbia's accession is it's forced partition an acceptance that it must be subjegated and docile in it's partition. FYI Refenda questions are actually very ofetn in teh westleading indeed and quite often if the "wrong" choice is made then usually it is asked again until it passes - just in case the masses didnt quite comprehend the dictat!

Bganon,
I am all for signing the agreement for agreement of agreemnt SAA so long as the EU first clarifies that it upholds and respects Serbia and its sovereignity prior to signing up this Faustian contract! It is deceitful to sign an agreement and suggest its respects the state but within the month many members are illegally recognising illegal declarations and hope that in time you will just put up and shut up if your promised 30 pieces of silver in teh future!

Tadic said;

“We do not wish anyone harm, but we are asking for Serbia and its people to be respected,”
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=02&dd=04&nav_id=47449

Yet here is the EU deceitfully sending internal agreements last Friday to be agreed Monday in this illegal mission and in so many ways disrespecting Serbia's electorate as really what the EU are saying is they don't care if Tadic or Nikolic won they are going to do this irrespective. I think this should be ringing alarm bells in many peoples mind - friends indeed...

To the K-Albanians here.

How do you ever expect to become an EU state when it is quite obvious that a number of EU members will never recognise independence? How can you become a memeber without the club formally recognising you?

Serbia's path to the EU is there if she wants it but as soon as the K-Albanians declare independence, you automatically self-impose a block to that path. How can the EU offer an alternate path if your existance is not formally recognised?

With what, 60 to 70% unemployment, a large degree of corruption, crime and drug traffiking, I get the impression that anyone here thinking Kosovo will become a member of the EU anytime soon is completely deluded.

I am starting to consider this being the plan all along. Image the K-Albanians having unrestricted access to the EU? With 70% unemployment - you can almost guarantee a mass exodus. Images of boats full of Albanians heading to Italy a few years back comes to mind.

So what's the plan? Albanians declare independence, a few states recognise it. The Albanians feel happy. To some extend, the Serbs know that Kosovo is a legal part of its territory so the status quo remains, except K-Albanians will probably never become an EU member, especially if Serbia decides to join.

Did I miss something? I'd like to hear a response from the K-Albanian side.

Bganon,

" … not be accepted in any other western country….Let the people decide…."

Hmm, it seems that governments in the western countries don't like referendums very much, people might choose "wrongly". Are you following developments around new EU constitution, oops, I meant reform…?

"….just a straightforward yes or no…"

A bit to simplistic question for a such complicated agreement. Wouldn't you like to know what exactly I you signing? Are you aware that in the recent years new members are treated very differently then it used to be. There is no more standard procedure with a same rights and obligations for all members. Now it is on the case to case basis. New members don't have full rights, there are all sorts of restrictions. Serbia especially should read small print very carefully…

"….Serbian politicians of the past that got us into this mess in the first place…."

What would you do in their place?

Remember, Tadic may have won the elections but Kostunica can bring this government down very quickly to either seek new elections or form a new government with Nikolic.

Nikolic very gracefully accepted defeat and was very honourable with his position.

Turning to the government now, it's a mess and that should concern the EU.

The EU should ensure that there is no declaration of 'independence' as in fact it would be a declaration of 'dependence' on the international community.

Until Kosovo has an agreement with Serbia and the international community for a form of strong autonomy, Kosovo should continue to be dependent on the UN and any other international body that wishes to stick its oar in (such as the EU).

Although the EU encouraged
Tadic in his campaign to become Serbias next president
at the same time they created
a false dawn for all those who believed that Serbia's vital interests in Kosovo would've been considered.
Instead by manipulating the
provisos of article 10 UN1244
they've decided to send a large number of civil administrators into Kosovo thus legitimatising the partition of the country.The
next steps taken by the Serbian leadership will be
crucial not only for Serbia but for the whole region

Princip

Those are the political realities now that the EU has slapped Serbia across the face just after an election that supported it.

What the politicians decide to do is up to them but the common interest should be protecting Kosovo over anything else.

Sidi - Good luck with "ANYTHING BUT SERBIA" and keep hoping. Hamas in Palestine have a similar stance but without negotiating a solution both Hamas and K-Albanians have nothing but hope.

miri, that's not a threat. Just the political reality that the EU must consider before following ill considered ideas.

shqarthi, never is a long time and I can assure you that Serbia will never recognise an independent Kosovo and neither will Russia. Both Romania and Cyprus have also used the word "never".

You are correct that Kosovo needs economic help but in that case you would need business people sent to Kosovo. Instead you are getting police, judges and soldiers! What does that indicate? Well, I can only assume that Kosovo is not in a healthy state and no-where near the economic and investment stage.

In answer to your question, if Kosovo remained a part of Serbia then we would enter the EU together and prosper. Kosovo will have the highest level of Autonomy and you can rule your regions. Serbia will have access to their churches and historical sites.

Will Serbia fund Kosovo? Not sure but the EU will fund the development of both Kosovo and Serbia. Remember, Serbia is being developed economically now. That's why business people are going there rather than police and judges.

Now my point is, a quasi Kosovo has no hope of joining the EU. Has that been the plan all along? EU wants Serbians but not Albanians? I say that because that's the message I'm getting!

As you albanians sit & cheer for the US, just remember the power Kostunica has & you can thank the US for putting him in power!

Furthermore, should by a miracle from above the EU's mission enter into Kosovo, not only will they violate International law, but that will PROVE that Kosovo cannot & will not become independant.

Independance is the ability to govern yourself - this is something THEY really don't want!

CCCC

The so-called Princip at comment #16 is a joker clearly upset at my comments.

Thankfully it would seem that Tadic is coming to his senses in suggesting that any EU mission must be accepted in the UN SC. The UK govt. might be willing to act irresponsibly along with a "few" others but the great majority will not - Tadic needs to understand that the EU is divided upon this so called mission which has been accepted but many have grudgingly and on condition of water tight legality.

Bganon, I do not mean to be disrespectful and want your discussion so that you fully analyse fully the implications of Serbia not being aware of the duplicitous nature of so called "friends". Lets be clear when I suggest duplicitousness this is not a slur on the people of such states but the once more the "few". In fact for many people within these states they too feel they have been lied and spun and are totally disenfranschised democratically.

More over I want Serbia to stand up for itself and to be proud of all that it has achived over the last 8 years and to carry on with a new vigour and does not need to be labelled and carry the baggage of those before. Tadic as President of Serbia 2008 onwards needs to find his backbone on this issue (as he seems to be doing). Tadic has it in his place to form a united position to drive Serbia forward with pride and dignity;

“If you want to be respected by others the great thing is to respect yourself. Only by that, only by self-respect will you compel others to respect you.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

Bganon,

Now do we choose to believe that Serbian statements to refuse SAA will stop Kosovo being recognised? Even the birds on the trees know this wont stop the unilateral decleration. The only thing it will do will be to delay EU accession still further.

-No, this refusal wouldn’t stop Kosovo independence but should we just accept every kind of rubbish that they offer us. Remember that EU did not even approve signing SAA, not because of Kostunica but because of Nederland. I have no doubts that Kostunica would oppose to this either but it is clear that they are trying to buy us anyhow. Now they proposed some “political deal”. Do you maybe know what political deal is? I have no idea. The only thing I know that they offered some visa relaxation without saying what that relaxation means. Tell me why they didn’t propose SAA or that political agreement much earlier. Why to wait so long. Well, I honestly think that they were waiting Kosovo status resolving. The EU technocrats use Kosovo as a sort of blackmail. What do we get now? Absolutely nothing. They will recognise Kosovo, we will sign this famous political deal and by the end of the year nothing will change. Next year Serbia will maybe be allowed to travel without any visas (but I personally doubt) and if that happens then it will be finally clear that visa requirement for so long was because of the Albanians. Anyway, as I said I even don’t believe in visa abolishment for us.

Next I would like to point out and to ask for your opinion, what will you say if our entrance in EU is directly linked with the recognition of Kosovo by Serbia? Do you still think that Serbia should recognise Kosovo in favour for the EU? I have no doubts that Serbia’s integration in the EU will be conditioned with recognition of Kosovo. Kostunica might be a bit weird but he is certainly not a fool and I am sure that he predicted this. This small political deal offered by the EU is just a test how far or how low we can go to take everything they ask. If we accept such small thing such as that political deal in order to smoothly accept EU mission, then they will buy us for Serbia’s signature on independence for even smaller thing. Why not, they can do now what ever they like when our president said he won’t do anything to protect Serbia’s sovereignty. He did not try even to bluff.

Princip I appreciate the respect - and return it. But I have to say that you didnt answer the points I raised.

Pride alone will solve nothing, you have to use offer people solutions. You have to offer them a future - that is what the EU represents (falsely or not) to some people in Serbia. I'd say in the last 15 years or so Serbia stood up for itself in that proud way you admire and yet lost almost every single diplomatic or military battle that came (leaving aside who was to blame for what, that is still extraordinarily bad).

What do you say to that?
Are you proud of defeat? OK sometimes one can go down fighting for something they believe, sometimes thats not a bad thing, but every time? Thats when the alarm bells start ringing, thats when you have to take a hard look at the way decisions are made. Thats when you have to take a different approach.

You mention the way that Serbia needs to be aware of its 'friends' intentions, inferring the EU. But come on, Serbia remembers how its friends Greece and Russia acted during the break up of Jugoslavija. When it came to the crunch Serbia was alone. Russia and Greece look after their own interests - which is (guess what!) normal. Serbs are a cynical bunch and most are hardly likely to believe that the EU are going to make them millionaires. On the other hand the EU is the only game in town, Jugoslavija doesnt exist - there is no third way anymore. The closest we get to that is being in the EU and having a special relationship with Russia - if we are lucky.

Its time to stop messing about, kicking a screaming about one thing and another. We can say clearly we oppose Kosovo independence and sign the SAA.

Bganon, I think you will find our positions are closer then you realise.

"I ask you again Princip do you think a decleration from parliament or refusal to sign SAA will stop some EU member states from recognising Kosovo. "

- “If you want to be respected by others the great thing is to respect yourself. Only by that, only by self-respect will you compel others to respect you.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

In reply to your question I do believe Serbia not signing up until it gets a clear indication that Serbia's sovereignity is respected sends a message to the EU. Bganon understand I do want Serbia to sign but NOT while the EU "few" continue to disrespect and undermine Serbia's sovereignity. This is what Kostunica is demanding.

Bganon, do you not have self respect for yourself? Clearly you rebuke my points which is great since you are sticking up for your point and that gains respect! Now I ask you what is different for Serbia to do the same? Why should it not insist from the EU that in signing the agreement for agreement upon the SAA agreement but on very clear grounds that in doing so EU members respect Serbia's sovereignity and will continue to do so?

Lets face it, it's not the SAA agreement that EU gave DSS a false belief they would get - yes its a good step in the right direction but ultimately SAA will not be signed and never was going to be signed until Mladic is in the Hague irrespective of him being in Serbia or not - that I am sure you will be in full agreement with!

Do you Bganon believe that the EU mission is not a clear undermining of Serbia's Sovereignity ?

What did the EU say about UN in Kosovo in 2004 ?

"We could not be in favor of anything that ran counter to the proper implementation of [UN Security Council] Resolution 1244, which governs Kosovo's status for the moment, and that implies the authority of UNMIK [the UN Mission in Kosovo] running throughout the province of Kosovo. Obviously, in the light of events last week, there will be some discussion about how best to resolve the differences between ethnic communities in Kosovo, but we have no change in our policies at present,"
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/03/ae804859-41b8-4780-8bd0-7dc609836788.html

You also ask;
"Wasnt it Kostunica who signed the previous feasability study agreement with the EU? Why didnt he refuse to sign then?

When exactly was this signed? Could it be it was before the EU decided on the 14th December to publically annouce its illegal mission undermining Serbia's sovereigty ? Look into the timeline of events and comprehend that Kostunica has been making this point since the announcement of an illegal EU mission because he realised rightly what was at stake! It is the EU who have forced this upon Serbia and in doing so show great disrespect for Serbia's sovereignity and in fact for its electorate since they did not want to be transparent and let the Serbians know on the 28th that they care less for who ever wins as they have their objective seeing as Serbia is so easily subjegated and easily pushed any which way it deceides.

Thankfully even Tadic is now realising that many in EU are acting Duplictly and without transparency with this "illegal mission". Tadic insists it must be sanctioned by the UN i.e. uphold Serbain sovereignty. To give strength to this message Tadic must let the EU know that Serbia is not playing games it wants to be an "equal" partner but this means ALL of Serbia in the EU or Serbia undersatnds that it is not being respected as an equal but can be cut and partitioned willy nilly!

Bganon, surely it is right that Serbia stand off from signing this agreement of agreement upon agreement of SAA while the EU acts duplictly ?

This is not about not wanting to sign and carry on the the EU path but in doing so Serbia insists that when the EU signs this document it binds all EU members to continue in respecting and upholding Serbia's Sovereignity!

Do you not agree?

Or do you think that the "few" EU who force behind the scenes while Serbia's election was still to be deceided a mission that violates Serbia's sovereignity irrespective of a Tadic win is something that Serbia should just roll over to and give in to any demands ?

Bganon, Serbia must respect its Sovereignity if it is to be respected by others! Thus YES Serbia should rightfully question signing and demand clarity from the EU to ensure continued Sovereignity!

Do you now cmprehend the point or are you still of the opinion that a bully/thief will respect you if you just give them what they demand and might not ask you for more next time?

Princip you gave me more of a politicians answer. I asked you whether you thought Serbia not signing the agreement with the Eu would stop the EU from sending its mission? I dont think it will. I'd appreciate a straight answer from you.

The only message we will be sending by not signing is that further EU integration will be delayed. I have had enough of the delays. In Serbia there seems to be a delay for one thing or another all the time. I support action, not sleeping at the wheel (or the armchair in Kostunica's case).

You know self respect is a moot point. Personally it doesnt matter to me whether a person has self respect or not (its none of my business). The thing that impresses me is whether one has the interest of one's country in mind. Its easy to respect oneself and to have no respect for anybody else around you.

'Do you Bganon believe that the EU mission is not a clear undermining of Serbia's Sovereignity ? '

Yes, in theory that sounds fine. In practice its also a matter of days or weeks before Kosovo declares independence. Thats a clear breach of Serbian soverignty - does that mean I think we should sent the whole Serbian army and police force in to put down the rebellion? Shoot them all if necessary. NO it does not. In theory such action might be right, according to laws governing nation states etc but that doesnt mean in practice it should be applied does it?

I dont care about what should be right in theory, or wishful thinking. I care about reality and the results we can really get. You wont find me nostalgically rueing the past diplomatic battle lost, or shaking my fist when nobody else gives a damn, because I'd be working flat out to ensure the next battle is won.

The Serbian Milosevic government practically signed away soveriegnty over Kosovo in Kumanovo. In THEORY they did not but in reality they did. They let foreign troops occupy Kosovo. Ok I say we can fight for Kosovo to remain in Serbia - as the best thing for all its people but the reality is that the majority dont believe it.

What would you have me do, walk around in a parallel reality where in theory, legally everything is one way but in reality its another. I am above all a realist.

That doesnt mean laying down when somebody tries to rob me but if he has a gun to my head, am I expected to argue with him. 'In theory Mr robber you have no right to rob me, kindly remove your gun and respect my right not to be robbed'.

Its ridiculous, you arent suggesting that because I value my life I deserve to be robbed surely?