18

Sunday, 02.12.2007.

13:55

Elections and negotiations

Izvor: B92

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Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

Montgomery wrote: "Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in
harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic"

Tito managed to have people live peaceful together in a much shorter timeframe - so it is possible. Tito's solution was quite simple: he pointed out some people as war criminals but treated the rest of their ethnic group as decent people with full rights.

Until now Croatia is acting as if all Serbs are war criminals and is denying its Serbs full minority rights. By doing that it gives all anti-Serb racists the signal that they are right.

Unfortunately the US supports this policy and it seems that it would like to introduce similar unhealthy ethnic relations in Bosnia.

Jelena

pre 18 godina

The actual question is not if Kosovo declares unilateral independence, the question is, as everyone knows, when and how. The answer lies in how do the K-Albanians coordinate with their Western partners, so they can achieve soft landing. The thing of it is USA can not retreat now, regardless of costs, after it has been promising Kosovo independence for so many years, without causing serious disappointment and resentment amongst K-Albanians, and perhaps some parts of the world.And especially after doing so with the Serbs in the '90s. They'd still like an ally around here. And everyone knows how much the Serbs were pro-American prior to the newest Balkan wars. The problem also lies in he fact that, unless adopted by the UN Security Council and/or Serbia, any decision made is not legally binding for Serbia. And no one is certain whether or what wild card the Russians have and would play. Of course, the Busch administration is desperate to spin something as success before Mr. Busch leaves the White House so the situation would look at least a bit better for the Republicans - hence resolution of Kosovo status as the US dictates. There's however a deep human issue at hand here - the return of IDPs to Kosovo, which the international forces have promised to support but never carried out in reality since they were waiting, I guess, for a biological end as stated by the commanding officer in Kosovo. When it comes to EU, even a person without much knowledge from economics field, just common sense is enough, can "read" the situation. It is not healthy for a weak economy to enter EU, since it would get crushed by old capitalisms and colonialisms of Western Europe. In the long run if Serbia was to enter EU prematurely, which is anything less than 15 years to the best, it can be only bad for the economy and its citizens. Frankly, I seriously doubt EU will still exist in 15 years, with its size and old conflicts, which ironically enough will be instigated again by Kosovo's unilaterla declaration of independence which is to be recognized by the EU - hence EU will eventually self-destruct like any similar system. Everyone knows what happened with Yugoslavia, and god knows Yugoslavs had far more in common than the EU peoples.

ida

pre 18 godina

Tudjman brought many old Ustasha from Argentina and other places into his government. Just read of the death of Ivo Rojnica in Argentina. Tudjman had wanted him to take a position in his government, but prevented by international opposition because Ivo Rojnica also was accused of deportations of Jews. But many other old Ustasha Tudjman did have in the government and at the head of the Croatian army in 1991.

This was to send a message to Serbs that they were going to complete what was started in WWII, and they, essentially, have (thanks to U.S. and German support). Then there's officials like Montgomery who found nothing wrong with Croats doing that - as long as it would clean Croatia of those obnoxious Serbs.

Princip, UK

pre 18 godina

Imagine if the Serbian Goverment did exactly as Croatia did in 1995 in upholding its Sovereignity and territorial integrity - would we hear this message from Montgomery;

"Thus, there is and will be for the foreseeable future issues of discrimination and mistreatment directed at "Serbian Albanians". Like its predecessors, the future government will walk the fine line of satisfying to some extent the concerns (and pressure) from the International Community in this regard, but will do so carefully and selectively to avoid a nationalistic backlash."

The duplicitousness of Mongomery is so brazen that he does not require further comment.

nv

pre 18 godina

Ian.
Croatia WAS NOT a willing partner for peace. Serbs did deley hoping for more consessions, and greater autonomy. But in the end they not only entered the "serious talks" but ACCEPTED the plan that gave them autonomy within Croatia.
Croatia did not accept the plan at any time on grounds that it leads to federalisation or even confederalisation of the country.
But, they didn't have to accept it. However, acceptance of the plan by the other side should be considered as a good basis for further negotiating, don't you think?
This stands in a contrast to Albanians in Kosovo NOT ACCEPTING anything less then independance.
If you are going to tell me now that Kosovo already had some sort of autonomy within Serbia, etc. etc. let's just forget Kosovo.
What about Albanians in Macedonia? They have gained rights that in many elements resamble K-4 plan.
With the West that was okey. When it comes to Serbs in Croatia it wasn't.
This is the reason why Serbs are the biggest victims, Ian. Because somobody, somewhere have decided that they will not be given any rights that others will be given (like Albanians).
That's the real reason, my friend. And not because Babic or Karadzic were in anything worst then Tudjman, Izetbegovic or Ceku.

radical

pre 18 godina

"It seems as if it is not a question of what will happen next, but only exactly when it will happen and how. At some point in the next two months, the Kosovo Albanians will begin the procedure leading to unilateral independence. This will be done in close consultation with the United States and key EU states."

One of the accusations agains Milosevic at Hague was that he was taking part in "joint criminal enterprise" to illegally take parts of neighbouring souvereign countries (since they were already recognized as such - illegally, of course)
What charges will be brought against Bush, some "key EU" leaders and Albanian leaders for this "joint criminal enterprise"?


After that:

"If they enforce the results of the elections and install Kosovo Albanians in the local government offices, the potential for violence is extremely high. On the other hand, if they do not do so, what does it say for the rule of law and the validity of the entire election process?"

Rule of what, Montgomery? Law?
Yeah! Let's all speak in jest now.

Ian

pre 18 godina

The occupied territories of Croatia were 40% Croatian and 54% Serbian.

To speak of the abandonment of Z-4 makes it sound like Croatia was not a willing partner for peace. It was; it's too bad the Krajina Serbs delayed and delayed before entering serious negotiations.

Serbs are the biggest victims of the war but mostly because they had terrible leaders.

nv

pre 18 godina

Dino, you should inform yourself about something before making any claims.

"Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace."

First Krajina was not 50 - 50. Second, who abandoned K-4 plan?

On August 2nd 1995, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2nd, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publically declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, demanding several terms to be met before negotiations continue (including the unconditional surrender of Krajina). On the night of August 3rd, American mediators said that the Krajina Serbs had made many concessions in regards to these demands, except unconditional surrender.
On August 4th 1995 Operation Storm began.

ved

pre 18 godina

When Albanians boycotted Serbian elections in 90's Milosevic used the "firm hand" and "overwhelming show of force to insist on the installation of the newly-elected Kosovo Serbian officials (who were elected only bacause Albanians boycotted) sending powerful signal that attempts to set up Albanian zones which reject the authority of any Serbian government would not be tolerated."
Albanians responded with KLA, shuttling back and forth from Albania.
Now, if KFOR wants to take over the torch from Milosevic, go ahead.
We've learn then, how to respond to that.
By the way, I didn't get what was it that you were trying to say with Croatia at the beginning? And what it has to do with Kosovo? Or with anythhing? You won't find more then 5% of population of Serbia today, that have any interest in what is happening there, who won the elections and all that?

SinCity

pre 18 godina

Why is it that Serbs find it always hard to accept something positive mentioned about Croatia?

Serbs should strive once and for all to make a better and stable Serbia. Quit wasting energy and presious time on territorial expansion, Kosovo etc. Focus on your economy for a change which is in terrible shape. Then the world will hold you guys in higher regard.

Ida - Dont you every get tired of peddling over and over again your exaggerations and propaganda? You were never there in Croatia, you probably have never been to Croatia so stop making up ridiculous claims all the time ....

ida

pre 18 godina

Actually bad things were happening to Serbs before the war. Tomislav Mercep was arresting, torturing and killing Vukovar Serbs at the beginning of May 1991.

The Serbs were also being mass fired and harassed all over Croatia. Serb homes were being blown up by pumping gas into them, then these destroyed homes were claimed by Croats to be Croat homes destroyed by Serbs.

As for Croat deaths in Krajina - how many were there and how many were soldiers vs. civilians.

Most of the Croat deaths were soldiers, not civilans.

Let not also forget Lora prison where the Croats sodomized and mutilated Serb and Montengrin POWs. Croat witnesses themselves have spoken of Montengrin soldiers having their tongues cut out and there in prison making gurgling noises due to all the blood and not tongues. Look it up - CROATS have testified to that abuse by other Croats on the POWs.
Virtually all survivors of Lora are severely disabled and needed surgery for all kinds of abuse, including intestinal surgery due to the sodomy perpetrated by Croats.

Dino

pre 18 godina

Milosevic made promises to Krajina and brain washed them that bad things were going to happen. Once the war started, bad things were obviously going to happen. Babic admitted and testified to this. Greater Serbia was name of the game (Seselj called croats serbian catholics) and Milosevic wanted to be next Tito.

As for crimes, many more croats were killed in krajina than serbs.Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace.

ida

pre 18 godina

"Relations with Croatian Serbs. The fact is that the brutality of the war years has left deep scars on many people of all ethnic groups throughout the Balkans. To a very large extent, the victims in Croatia knew some or all of the perpetrators. They often were from the same village. Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic."

Actually there was a lot of diaspora Croats from Argentina, Canada, Australia, etc., along with German, Dutch, French and British mercenaries who were often involved in the atrocities against Croatian Serbs.

There's many accounts of unknown people no one knew coming into the villages to cause ethnic tension and cleansing.

Besides that, there were many mostly purely Serbian areas or places with very few Croats which were cleansed and where Serbs can't come back, so your excuse for treatment of Serbs doesn't work for many areas.

You also mention failure to prosecute Croat mass murderers and killers of Serbs such as Tomislav Mercep and his men. His righthand man, Miro Bajramovic, admitted that he himself is responsible for killing 86, mostly ethnic Serb civilians (but also a few Croats too) under orders of Tomislav Mercep.

The ICTY and international community have no interest in prosecuting most mass murderers of Serbs.

lola

pre 18 godina

You Mr Montgomery said much of the same as usual. What we all wanted to hear is at least some truth about country that managed to cleans itself of most minorities in a very brutal way. Those few that are left are in fear for their lives.

You are just like most western media-mouth piece for western politecs. Basically: Serbs are bad and deserve all bad things in life on the other hand Croats and Muslems are angels and their crimes are justified. Shame on you all!

vladimir gagic

pre 18 godina

The hostility and racism against Croatian Serbs proves the Hague Tribunal did nothing at all to lessen hate and foster reconciliation. If anything, the Tribunal has only made things worse.

It would have been much better if the Hague fantasy did not exist, and the West left the republics alone. It's now rather obvious that the Hague tribunal was not to foster justice, but rather to absolve the West.

bganon

pre 18 godina

Its interesting that you see Croatia more in human terms and outline Kosovo in the abstract or realpolitik. I think thats due to your practical knowledge in Croatia and less so in Kosovo.

In fact anybody who looks at your text more closely can see that the part about Croatia is aimed at us mortals and the part about Kosovo reads like part of a report destined for Western policy makers.

You mention returnees to Croatia but dont talk about Kosovo Serbs that remain cleansed to this day. What is to be done with them? You mention the boycott but you dont mention the reason why the boycott was so effective. Is it because Kosovo Serbs do not feel welcome in today's Kosovo? Is it because Kosovo Serbs still do not have the most basic rights such as freedom of movement? How can you not see that Mr Montgomery, how can you not have some pity? You analysis of Kosovo is just cold.

You infer that it is time to play hardball with the Kosovo Serbs - because Kosovo Serbs are weaker and can cause less trouble they may be sacrificed, or is there another reason, you dont mention morality - nor do I think you are naieve enough to use this argument.

To me you are sending a message to Serbs and men like Kostunica that the only way to 'play' Kosovo is to respond in kind - to play hardball, to threaten stability, to prepare mass protests, to prepare plans for a referendum in Northern Kosovo and / or Bosnia. To cause as much trouble as possible - because the dice is loaded so cheating is the only option.

This is the logical answer because if the argument of the human rights of minorities in Kosovo does not interest you, and I can only conclude that it does not - as you didnt write about it, then threats to your interests is the only thing left.

How about a few lines about the negotiation process. Was it a farce? Was one side unwilling to negotiate? Was that because they had no incentive to negotiate and which nation state is to blame for that?

I did enjoy your comment about Surroi, didnt you imply that once the final results were added up he would suddenly gain 5 percent. Democracy in motion, ahhh.

Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

I found your comments on Kosovo rather onesided:
- You have no comment on the need to have an election now. It means that Kosovo will be stuck with its present corrupt politicians for 4 years after the status is settled. It would have been much better to have elections after the status is settled. Those elections would have focussed on the economy.
- enforcing the "authority of any Kosovo Albanian government" will nearly certainly mean the cleansing of the Serbs involved. Why do you ignore this hunmanitarian aspect?
In my opinion the international community should have given the part of Kosovo with a Serb minority back to Serb control long ago. Kosovo's leaders have had 8 years to show that they can deal with their Serb minority in a decent way and they have very clearly shown that they can't. Giving the north tip back to Serbia now would also diminish the potential for conflict when Kosovo declares independence.

bganon

pre 18 godina

Its interesting that you see Croatia more in human terms and outline Kosovo in the abstract or realpolitik. I think thats due to your practical knowledge in Croatia and less so in Kosovo.

In fact anybody who looks at your text more closely can see that the part about Croatia is aimed at us mortals and the part about Kosovo reads like part of a report destined for Western policy makers.

You mention returnees to Croatia but dont talk about Kosovo Serbs that remain cleansed to this day. What is to be done with them? You mention the boycott but you dont mention the reason why the boycott was so effective. Is it because Kosovo Serbs do not feel welcome in today's Kosovo? Is it because Kosovo Serbs still do not have the most basic rights such as freedom of movement? How can you not see that Mr Montgomery, how can you not have some pity? You analysis of Kosovo is just cold.

You infer that it is time to play hardball with the Kosovo Serbs - because Kosovo Serbs are weaker and can cause less trouble they may be sacrificed, or is there another reason, you dont mention morality - nor do I think you are naieve enough to use this argument.

To me you are sending a message to Serbs and men like Kostunica that the only way to 'play' Kosovo is to respond in kind - to play hardball, to threaten stability, to prepare mass protests, to prepare plans for a referendum in Northern Kosovo and / or Bosnia. To cause as much trouble as possible - because the dice is loaded so cheating is the only option.

This is the logical answer because if the argument of the human rights of minorities in Kosovo does not interest you, and I can only conclude that it does not - as you didnt write about it, then threats to your interests is the only thing left.

How about a few lines about the negotiation process. Was it a farce? Was one side unwilling to negotiate? Was that because they had no incentive to negotiate and which nation state is to blame for that?

I did enjoy your comment about Surroi, didnt you imply that once the final results were added up he would suddenly gain 5 percent. Democracy in motion, ahhh.

vladimir gagic

pre 18 godina

The hostility and racism against Croatian Serbs proves the Hague Tribunal did nothing at all to lessen hate and foster reconciliation. If anything, the Tribunal has only made things worse.

It would have been much better if the Hague fantasy did not exist, and the West left the republics alone. It's now rather obvious that the Hague tribunal was not to foster justice, but rather to absolve the West.

ida

pre 18 godina

Actually bad things were happening to Serbs before the war. Tomislav Mercep was arresting, torturing and killing Vukovar Serbs at the beginning of May 1991.

The Serbs were also being mass fired and harassed all over Croatia. Serb homes were being blown up by pumping gas into them, then these destroyed homes were claimed by Croats to be Croat homes destroyed by Serbs.

As for Croat deaths in Krajina - how many were there and how many were soldiers vs. civilians.

Most of the Croat deaths were soldiers, not civilans.

Let not also forget Lora prison where the Croats sodomized and mutilated Serb and Montengrin POWs. Croat witnesses themselves have spoken of Montengrin soldiers having their tongues cut out and there in prison making gurgling noises due to all the blood and not tongues. Look it up - CROATS have testified to that abuse by other Croats on the POWs.
Virtually all survivors of Lora are severely disabled and needed surgery for all kinds of abuse, including intestinal surgery due to the sodomy perpetrated by Croats.

lola

pre 18 godina

You Mr Montgomery said much of the same as usual. What we all wanted to hear is at least some truth about country that managed to cleans itself of most minorities in a very brutal way. Those few that are left are in fear for their lives.

You are just like most western media-mouth piece for western politecs. Basically: Serbs are bad and deserve all bad things in life on the other hand Croats and Muslems are angels and their crimes are justified. Shame on you all!

ida

pre 18 godina

"Relations with Croatian Serbs. The fact is that the brutality of the war years has left deep scars on many people of all ethnic groups throughout the Balkans. To a very large extent, the victims in Croatia knew some or all of the perpetrators. They often were from the same village. Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic."

Actually there was a lot of diaspora Croats from Argentina, Canada, Australia, etc., along with German, Dutch, French and British mercenaries who were often involved in the atrocities against Croatian Serbs.

There's many accounts of unknown people no one knew coming into the villages to cause ethnic tension and cleansing.

Besides that, there were many mostly purely Serbian areas or places with very few Croats which were cleansed and where Serbs can't come back, so your excuse for treatment of Serbs doesn't work for many areas.

You also mention failure to prosecute Croat mass murderers and killers of Serbs such as Tomislav Mercep and his men. His righthand man, Miro Bajramovic, admitted that he himself is responsible for killing 86, mostly ethnic Serb civilians (but also a few Croats too) under orders of Tomislav Mercep.

The ICTY and international community have no interest in prosecuting most mass murderers of Serbs.

Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

I found your comments on Kosovo rather onesided:
- You have no comment on the need to have an election now. It means that Kosovo will be stuck with its present corrupt politicians for 4 years after the status is settled. It would have been much better to have elections after the status is settled. Those elections would have focussed on the economy.
- enforcing the "authority of any Kosovo Albanian government" will nearly certainly mean the cleansing of the Serbs involved. Why do you ignore this hunmanitarian aspect?
In my opinion the international community should have given the part of Kosovo with a Serb minority back to Serb control long ago. Kosovo's leaders have had 8 years to show that they can deal with their Serb minority in a decent way and they have very clearly shown that they can't. Giving the north tip back to Serbia now would also diminish the potential for conflict when Kosovo declares independence.

SinCity

pre 18 godina

Why is it that Serbs find it always hard to accept something positive mentioned about Croatia?

Serbs should strive once and for all to make a better and stable Serbia. Quit wasting energy and presious time on territorial expansion, Kosovo etc. Focus on your economy for a change which is in terrible shape. Then the world will hold you guys in higher regard.

Ida - Dont you every get tired of peddling over and over again your exaggerations and propaganda? You were never there in Croatia, you probably have never been to Croatia so stop making up ridiculous claims all the time ....

radical

pre 18 godina

"It seems as if it is not a question of what will happen next, but only exactly when it will happen and how. At some point in the next two months, the Kosovo Albanians will begin the procedure leading to unilateral independence. This will be done in close consultation with the United States and key EU states."

One of the accusations agains Milosevic at Hague was that he was taking part in "joint criminal enterprise" to illegally take parts of neighbouring souvereign countries (since they were already recognized as such - illegally, of course)
What charges will be brought against Bush, some "key EU" leaders and Albanian leaders for this "joint criminal enterprise"?


After that:

"If they enforce the results of the elections and install Kosovo Albanians in the local government offices, the potential for violence is extremely high. On the other hand, if they do not do so, what does it say for the rule of law and the validity of the entire election process?"

Rule of what, Montgomery? Law?
Yeah! Let's all speak in jest now.

ida

pre 18 godina

Tudjman brought many old Ustasha from Argentina and other places into his government. Just read of the death of Ivo Rojnica in Argentina. Tudjman had wanted him to take a position in his government, but prevented by international opposition because Ivo Rojnica also was accused of deportations of Jews. But many other old Ustasha Tudjman did have in the government and at the head of the Croatian army in 1991.

This was to send a message to Serbs that they were going to complete what was started in WWII, and they, essentially, have (thanks to U.S. and German support). Then there's officials like Montgomery who found nothing wrong with Croats doing that - as long as it would clean Croatia of those obnoxious Serbs.

Dino

pre 18 godina

Milosevic made promises to Krajina and brain washed them that bad things were going to happen. Once the war started, bad things were obviously going to happen. Babic admitted and testified to this. Greater Serbia was name of the game (Seselj called croats serbian catholics) and Milosevic wanted to be next Tito.

As for crimes, many more croats were killed in krajina than serbs.Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace.

nv

pre 18 godina

Dino, you should inform yourself about something before making any claims.

"Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace."

First Krajina was not 50 - 50. Second, who abandoned K-4 plan?

On August 2nd 1995, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2nd, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publically declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, demanding several terms to be met before negotiations continue (including the unconditional surrender of Krajina). On the night of August 3rd, American mediators said that the Krajina Serbs had made many concessions in regards to these demands, except unconditional surrender.
On August 4th 1995 Operation Storm began.

Ian

pre 18 godina

The occupied territories of Croatia were 40% Croatian and 54% Serbian.

To speak of the abandonment of Z-4 makes it sound like Croatia was not a willing partner for peace. It was; it's too bad the Krajina Serbs delayed and delayed before entering serious negotiations.

Serbs are the biggest victims of the war but mostly because they had terrible leaders.

Princip, UK

pre 18 godina

Imagine if the Serbian Goverment did exactly as Croatia did in 1995 in upholding its Sovereignity and territorial integrity - would we hear this message from Montgomery;

"Thus, there is and will be for the foreseeable future issues of discrimination and mistreatment directed at "Serbian Albanians". Like its predecessors, the future government will walk the fine line of satisfying to some extent the concerns (and pressure) from the International Community in this regard, but will do so carefully and selectively to avoid a nationalistic backlash."

The duplicitousness of Mongomery is so brazen that he does not require further comment.

nv

pre 18 godina

Ian.
Croatia WAS NOT a willing partner for peace. Serbs did deley hoping for more consessions, and greater autonomy. But in the end they not only entered the "serious talks" but ACCEPTED the plan that gave them autonomy within Croatia.
Croatia did not accept the plan at any time on grounds that it leads to federalisation or even confederalisation of the country.
But, they didn't have to accept it. However, acceptance of the plan by the other side should be considered as a good basis for further negotiating, don't you think?
This stands in a contrast to Albanians in Kosovo NOT ACCEPTING anything less then independance.
If you are going to tell me now that Kosovo already had some sort of autonomy within Serbia, etc. etc. let's just forget Kosovo.
What about Albanians in Macedonia? They have gained rights that in many elements resamble K-4 plan.
With the West that was okey. When it comes to Serbs in Croatia it wasn't.
This is the reason why Serbs are the biggest victims, Ian. Because somobody, somewhere have decided that they will not be given any rights that others will be given (like Albanians).
That's the real reason, my friend. And not because Babic or Karadzic were in anything worst then Tudjman, Izetbegovic or Ceku.

Jelena

pre 18 godina

The actual question is not if Kosovo declares unilateral independence, the question is, as everyone knows, when and how. The answer lies in how do the K-Albanians coordinate with their Western partners, so they can achieve soft landing. The thing of it is USA can not retreat now, regardless of costs, after it has been promising Kosovo independence for so many years, without causing serious disappointment and resentment amongst K-Albanians, and perhaps some parts of the world.And especially after doing so with the Serbs in the '90s. They'd still like an ally around here. And everyone knows how much the Serbs were pro-American prior to the newest Balkan wars. The problem also lies in he fact that, unless adopted by the UN Security Council and/or Serbia, any decision made is not legally binding for Serbia. And no one is certain whether or what wild card the Russians have and would play. Of course, the Busch administration is desperate to spin something as success before Mr. Busch leaves the White House so the situation would look at least a bit better for the Republicans - hence resolution of Kosovo status as the US dictates. There's however a deep human issue at hand here - the return of IDPs to Kosovo, which the international forces have promised to support but never carried out in reality since they were waiting, I guess, for a biological end as stated by the commanding officer in Kosovo. When it comes to EU, even a person without much knowledge from economics field, just common sense is enough, can "read" the situation. It is not healthy for a weak economy to enter EU, since it would get crushed by old capitalisms and colonialisms of Western Europe. In the long run if Serbia was to enter EU prematurely, which is anything less than 15 years to the best, it can be only bad for the economy and its citizens. Frankly, I seriously doubt EU will still exist in 15 years, with its size and old conflicts, which ironically enough will be instigated again by Kosovo's unilaterla declaration of independence which is to be recognized by the EU - hence EU will eventually self-destruct like any similar system. Everyone knows what happened with Yugoslavia, and god knows Yugoslavs had far more in common than the EU peoples.

ved

pre 18 godina

When Albanians boycotted Serbian elections in 90's Milosevic used the "firm hand" and "overwhelming show of force to insist on the installation of the newly-elected Kosovo Serbian officials (who were elected only bacause Albanians boycotted) sending powerful signal that attempts to set up Albanian zones which reject the authority of any Serbian government would not be tolerated."
Albanians responded with KLA, shuttling back and forth from Albania.
Now, if KFOR wants to take over the torch from Milosevic, go ahead.
We've learn then, how to respond to that.
By the way, I didn't get what was it that you were trying to say with Croatia at the beginning? And what it has to do with Kosovo? Or with anythhing? You won't find more then 5% of population of Serbia today, that have any interest in what is happening there, who won the elections and all that?

Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

Montgomery wrote: "Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in
harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic"

Tito managed to have people live peaceful together in a much shorter timeframe - so it is possible. Tito's solution was quite simple: he pointed out some people as war criminals but treated the rest of their ethnic group as decent people with full rights.

Until now Croatia is acting as if all Serbs are war criminals and is denying its Serbs full minority rights. By doing that it gives all anti-Serb racists the signal that they are right.

Unfortunately the US supports this policy and it seems that it would like to introduce similar unhealthy ethnic relations in Bosnia.

Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

I found your comments on Kosovo rather onesided:
- You have no comment on the need to have an election now. It means that Kosovo will be stuck with its present corrupt politicians for 4 years after the status is settled. It would have been much better to have elections after the status is settled. Those elections would have focussed on the economy.
- enforcing the "authority of any Kosovo Albanian government" will nearly certainly mean the cleansing of the Serbs involved. Why do you ignore this hunmanitarian aspect?
In my opinion the international community should have given the part of Kosovo with a Serb minority back to Serb control long ago. Kosovo's leaders have had 8 years to show that they can deal with their Serb minority in a decent way and they have very clearly shown that they can't. Giving the north tip back to Serbia now would also diminish the potential for conflict when Kosovo declares independence.

Dino

pre 18 godina

Milosevic made promises to Krajina and brain washed them that bad things were going to happen. Once the war started, bad things were obviously going to happen. Babic admitted and testified to this. Greater Serbia was name of the game (Seselj called croats serbian catholics) and Milosevic wanted to be next Tito.

As for crimes, many more croats were killed in krajina than serbs.Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace.

ida

pre 18 godina

Actually bad things were happening to Serbs before the war. Tomislav Mercep was arresting, torturing and killing Vukovar Serbs at the beginning of May 1991.

The Serbs were also being mass fired and harassed all over Croatia. Serb homes were being blown up by pumping gas into them, then these destroyed homes were claimed by Croats to be Croat homes destroyed by Serbs.

As for Croat deaths in Krajina - how many were there and how many were soldiers vs. civilians.

Most of the Croat deaths were soldiers, not civilans.

Let not also forget Lora prison where the Croats sodomized and mutilated Serb and Montengrin POWs. Croat witnesses themselves have spoken of Montengrin soldiers having their tongues cut out and there in prison making gurgling noises due to all the blood and not tongues. Look it up - CROATS have testified to that abuse by other Croats on the POWs.
Virtually all survivors of Lora are severely disabled and needed surgery for all kinds of abuse, including intestinal surgery due to the sodomy perpetrated by Croats.

SinCity

pre 18 godina

Why is it that Serbs find it always hard to accept something positive mentioned about Croatia?

Serbs should strive once and for all to make a better and stable Serbia. Quit wasting energy and presious time on territorial expansion, Kosovo etc. Focus on your economy for a change which is in terrible shape. Then the world will hold you guys in higher regard.

Ida - Dont you every get tired of peddling over and over again your exaggerations and propaganda? You were never there in Croatia, you probably have never been to Croatia so stop making up ridiculous claims all the time ....

bganon

pre 18 godina

Its interesting that you see Croatia more in human terms and outline Kosovo in the abstract or realpolitik. I think thats due to your practical knowledge in Croatia and less so in Kosovo.

In fact anybody who looks at your text more closely can see that the part about Croatia is aimed at us mortals and the part about Kosovo reads like part of a report destined for Western policy makers.

You mention returnees to Croatia but dont talk about Kosovo Serbs that remain cleansed to this day. What is to be done with them? You mention the boycott but you dont mention the reason why the boycott was so effective. Is it because Kosovo Serbs do not feel welcome in today's Kosovo? Is it because Kosovo Serbs still do not have the most basic rights such as freedom of movement? How can you not see that Mr Montgomery, how can you not have some pity? You analysis of Kosovo is just cold.

You infer that it is time to play hardball with the Kosovo Serbs - because Kosovo Serbs are weaker and can cause less trouble they may be sacrificed, or is there another reason, you dont mention morality - nor do I think you are naieve enough to use this argument.

To me you are sending a message to Serbs and men like Kostunica that the only way to 'play' Kosovo is to respond in kind - to play hardball, to threaten stability, to prepare mass protests, to prepare plans for a referendum in Northern Kosovo and / or Bosnia. To cause as much trouble as possible - because the dice is loaded so cheating is the only option.

This is the logical answer because if the argument of the human rights of minorities in Kosovo does not interest you, and I can only conclude that it does not - as you didnt write about it, then threats to your interests is the only thing left.

How about a few lines about the negotiation process. Was it a farce? Was one side unwilling to negotiate? Was that because they had no incentive to negotiate and which nation state is to blame for that?

I did enjoy your comment about Surroi, didnt you imply that once the final results were added up he would suddenly gain 5 percent. Democracy in motion, ahhh.

vladimir gagic

pre 18 godina

The hostility and racism against Croatian Serbs proves the Hague Tribunal did nothing at all to lessen hate and foster reconciliation. If anything, the Tribunal has only made things worse.

It would have been much better if the Hague fantasy did not exist, and the West left the republics alone. It's now rather obvious that the Hague tribunal was not to foster justice, but rather to absolve the West.

lola

pre 18 godina

You Mr Montgomery said much of the same as usual. What we all wanted to hear is at least some truth about country that managed to cleans itself of most minorities in a very brutal way. Those few that are left are in fear for their lives.

You are just like most western media-mouth piece for western politecs. Basically: Serbs are bad and deserve all bad things in life on the other hand Croats and Muslems are angels and their crimes are justified. Shame on you all!

ida

pre 18 godina

"Relations with Croatian Serbs. The fact is that the brutality of the war years has left deep scars on many people of all ethnic groups throughout the Balkans. To a very large extent, the victims in Croatia knew some or all of the perpetrators. They often were from the same village. Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic."

Actually there was a lot of diaspora Croats from Argentina, Canada, Australia, etc., along with German, Dutch, French and British mercenaries who were often involved in the atrocities against Croatian Serbs.

There's many accounts of unknown people no one knew coming into the villages to cause ethnic tension and cleansing.

Besides that, there were many mostly purely Serbian areas or places with very few Croats which were cleansed and where Serbs can't come back, so your excuse for treatment of Serbs doesn't work for many areas.

You also mention failure to prosecute Croat mass murderers and killers of Serbs such as Tomislav Mercep and his men. His righthand man, Miro Bajramovic, admitted that he himself is responsible for killing 86, mostly ethnic Serb civilians (but also a few Croats too) under orders of Tomislav Mercep.

The ICTY and international community have no interest in prosecuting most mass murderers of Serbs.

nv

pre 18 godina

Dino, you should inform yourself about something before making any claims.

"Remember, Krajina was about 50:50 serb croat, but serbs claimed it all for themselves. thats where problem started and abandonment of Z-4 plan is proof that leadership wasnt interested in peace."

First Krajina was not 50 - 50. Second, who abandoned K-4 plan?

On August 2nd 1995, negotiations took place in Geneva for Krajina to enter a political settlement with Zagreb. The basis for negotiations in Geneva was a modified version of the Z-4 plan which would treat the eastern and western part of Krajina equally. On August 2nd, Krajina Prime Minister Milan Babic publically declared his acceptance the Z-4 Plan through negotiations with U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith. Croatia refused to acknowledge the plan's acceptance by Krajina authorities, demanding several terms to be met before negotiations continue (including the unconditional surrender of Krajina). On the night of August 3rd, American mediators said that the Krajina Serbs had made many concessions in regards to these demands, except unconditional surrender.
On August 4th 1995 Operation Storm began.

ved

pre 18 godina

When Albanians boycotted Serbian elections in 90's Milosevic used the "firm hand" and "overwhelming show of force to insist on the installation of the newly-elected Kosovo Serbian officials (who were elected only bacause Albanians boycotted) sending powerful signal that attempts to set up Albanian zones which reject the authority of any Serbian government would not be tolerated."
Albanians responded with KLA, shuttling back and forth from Albania.
Now, if KFOR wants to take over the torch from Milosevic, go ahead.
We've learn then, how to respond to that.
By the way, I didn't get what was it that you were trying to say with Croatia at the beginning? And what it has to do with Kosovo? Or with anythhing? You won't find more then 5% of population of Serbia today, that have any interest in what is happening there, who won the elections and all that?

Ian

pre 18 godina

The occupied territories of Croatia were 40% Croatian and 54% Serbian.

To speak of the abandonment of Z-4 makes it sound like Croatia was not a willing partner for peace. It was; it's too bad the Krajina Serbs delayed and delayed before entering serious negotiations.

Serbs are the biggest victims of the war but mostly because they had terrible leaders.

radical

pre 18 godina

"It seems as if it is not a question of what will happen next, but only exactly when it will happen and how. At some point in the next two months, the Kosovo Albanians will begin the procedure leading to unilateral independence. This will be done in close consultation with the United States and key EU states."

One of the accusations agains Milosevic at Hague was that he was taking part in "joint criminal enterprise" to illegally take parts of neighbouring souvereign countries (since they were already recognized as such - illegally, of course)
What charges will be brought against Bush, some "key EU" leaders and Albanian leaders for this "joint criminal enterprise"?


After that:

"If they enforce the results of the elections and install Kosovo Albanians in the local government offices, the potential for violence is extremely high. On the other hand, if they do not do so, what does it say for the rule of law and the validity of the entire election process?"

Rule of what, Montgomery? Law?
Yeah! Let's all speak in jest now.

nv

pre 18 godina

Ian.
Croatia WAS NOT a willing partner for peace. Serbs did deley hoping for more consessions, and greater autonomy. But in the end they not only entered the "serious talks" but ACCEPTED the plan that gave them autonomy within Croatia.
Croatia did not accept the plan at any time on grounds that it leads to federalisation or even confederalisation of the country.
But, they didn't have to accept it. However, acceptance of the plan by the other side should be considered as a good basis for further negotiating, don't you think?
This stands in a contrast to Albanians in Kosovo NOT ACCEPTING anything less then independance.
If you are going to tell me now that Kosovo already had some sort of autonomy within Serbia, etc. etc. let's just forget Kosovo.
What about Albanians in Macedonia? They have gained rights that in many elements resamble K-4 plan.
With the West that was okey. When it comes to Serbs in Croatia it wasn't.
This is the reason why Serbs are the biggest victims, Ian. Because somobody, somewhere have decided that they will not be given any rights that others will be given (like Albanians).
That's the real reason, my friend. And not because Babic or Karadzic were in anything worst then Tudjman, Izetbegovic or Ceku.

Princip, UK

pre 18 godina

Imagine if the Serbian Goverment did exactly as Croatia did in 1995 in upholding its Sovereignity and territorial integrity - would we hear this message from Montgomery;

"Thus, there is and will be for the foreseeable future issues of discrimination and mistreatment directed at "Serbian Albanians". Like its predecessors, the future government will walk the fine line of satisfying to some extent the concerns (and pressure) from the International Community in this regard, but will do so carefully and selectively to avoid a nationalistic backlash."

The duplicitousness of Mongomery is so brazen that he does not require further comment.

ida

pre 18 godina

Tudjman brought many old Ustasha from Argentina and other places into his government. Just read of the death of Ivo Rojnica in Argentina. Tudjman had wanted him to take a position in his government, but prevented by international opposition because Ivo Rojnica also was accused of deportations of Jews. But many other old Ustasha Tudjman did have in the government and at the head of the Croatian army in 1991.

This was to send a message to Serbs that they were going to complete what was started in WWII, and they, essentially, have (thanks to U.S. and German support). Then there's officials like Montgomery who found nothing wrong with Croats doing that - as long as it would clean Croatia of those obnoxious Serbs.

Jelena

pre 18 godina

The actual question is not if Kosovo declares unilateral independence, the question is, as everyone knows, when and how. The answer lies in how do the K-Albanians coordinate with their Western partners, so they can achieve soft landing. The thing of it is USA can not retreat now, regardless of costs, after it has been promising Kosovo independence for so many years, without causing serious disappointment and resentment amongst K-Albanians, and perhaps some parts of the world.And especially after doing so with the Serbs in the '90s. They'd still like an ally around here. And everyone knows how much the Serbs were pro-American prior to the newest Balkan wars. The problem also lies in he fact that, unless adopted by the UN Security Council and/or Serbia, any decision made is not legally binding for Serbia. And no one is certain whether or what wild card the Russians have and would play. Of course, the Busch administration is desperate to spin something as success before Mr. Busch leaves the White House so the situation would look at least a bit better for the Republicans - hence resolution of Kosovo status as the US dictates. There's however a deep human issue at hand here - the return of IDPs to Kosovo, which the international forces have promised to support but never carried out in reality since they were waiting, I guess, for a biological end as stated by the commanding officer in Kosovo. When it comes to EU, even a person without much knowledge from economics field, just common sense is enough, can "read" the situation. It is not healthy for a weak economy to enter EU, since it would get crushed by old capitalisms and colonialisms of Western Europe. In the long run if Serbia was to enter EU prematurely, which is anything less than 15 years to the best, it can be only bad for the economy and its citizens. Frankly, I seriously doubt EU will still exist in 15 years, with its size and old conflicts, which ironically enough will be instigated again by Kosovo's unilaterla declaration of independence which is to be recognized by the EU - hence EU will eventually self-destruct like any similar system. Everyone knows what happened with Yugoslavia, and god knows Yugoslavs had far more in common than the EU peoples.

Wim Roffel

pre 18 godina

Montgomery wrote: "Expecting these ethnic groups to reconcile and go back to living together in
harmony in these villages and towns in less than a generation or two is unrealistic"

Tito managed to have people live peaceful together in a much shorter timeframe - so it is possible. Tito's solution was quite simple: he pointed out some people as war criminals but treated the rest of their ethnic group as decent people with full rights.

Until now Croatia is acting as if all Serbs are war criminals and is denying its Serbs full minority rights. By doing that it gives all anti-Serb racists the signal that they are right.

Unfortunately the US supports this policy and it seems that it would like to introduce similar unhealthy ethnic relations in Bosnia.