Russia: Same standards for frozen conflicts

I think the "unknown reason" that Desinov is referring to is the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia.

Well said Mr. Denisov. A very, very rock solid, bullet proof argument. You have just checkmated the Americans and Brits. As Borat would say, 'High Five!'.

I guess the Russians are making themselves very clear for the meeting on Monday just in case the US & a 'few' EU states didn't get the message the other day seeing as they have played deaf for the past year!

I always said that the the Russians have made it their interest that if Kosovo is to be settled the way that the US & a 'few' EU states wished then it would expect the same applied for it's interest in the near abroad i.e. Abkhazia, Priedneister, South Ossetia & Nagoro Karabakh.

Russia had named it's price as such over a year ago but the US and the 'few' EU states contnuied with the deaf act of "sui generis". They knew that they were in a self made trap because they had already agreed and signed a UN resolution reconfirming Serbia's integrity and need Russia to agree be that an affirmative or an abstention! Russia has once more named it's terms for that agreement but all along it has been the US & the 'few' EU who have strung this along because they themselves know China would definitly veto such a resolution. Like Russia says which way does the US & the 'few' EU states want to go - is it self determination or territoial integrity - eitherway it must be the same for all!!!

Mr. Heuschrecker, by "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s" are you referring to the cleansing of Kosovo Serbs, who still cannot go back home more than 7 years after the end of the war and regardless of the NATO presence? (While Kosovo Albanians were victims of ethnic cleansing, the NATO created conditions for their return, which are notably lacking for Kosovo Serbs.) Just wondering.

Theb fact is that Russia, as an authoritarian, corrupt and expansionist country, wants that Srpska join Serbia, that Kosovo remains in Serbia, and that South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria annex themselves to Russia.

That's it.

"the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia."

Actually, both places had wars and ethnic cleansing starting in 1992, when Georgia broke away. Do your research on it. It wasn't hyped in the news but hundreds of thousands or people in both places left or went there from other places in Georgia.

These are wikipedia articles on the fighting in Abkhazia and Ossetia after Georgia got independence.

The fighting in Ossetia wasn't as bad as Abkhazia and is said to have created 80,000 refugees and between 800-2,000 dead. But in Abkhazia the Georgians claim hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed and 10,000-30,000 dead in the war, which would make it larger than Kosovo by several times.

The Kosovo war is less than 5,000 if you combine those dead with all the missing from all sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia

The total number of killed in the process of ethnic cleansing ranges from 10,000 to 30,000 [18], which does not include the numbers of missing, wounded and tortured people. More than 250,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes. The campaign ethnic cleansing also included Russians, moderate Abkhaz, Armenians, Greeks and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of Schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_War

The South Ossetian War
The most intense period of war was in March and April, 1991; after a period of relative calm in July and August, violence resumed in mid-September. Georgia imposed economic blockade on the rebel region: disconnected electricity supplies to Tskhinvali, and blocked the road by which the city received food and other products. The Ossetians blockaded Georgian villages and several atrocities occurred on both sides. The fighting left hundreds of killed and wounded and created approximately 80,000 refugees on the both sides of the Georgian-Russian border. Georgian forces sat in the hills around Tskhinvali, besieging the city, and other fighting took place around the city in the nearby villages and along the road to North Ossetia.

"that Desinov is referring to is the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia."
Plenty of ethnic cleansing in Krajina, but still no independence…
Srebrenica also comes to mind (death toll as high as the entire Kosovo conflict) yet no independence for them...
Very often Western Officials state that one of the conditions that renders Kosovo "unique" is the fact that it required International Intervention, what they fail to mention is that this intervention was not sanctioned by the UN but by NATO. Considering that Russia troops intervened in Georgia, does that mean the same situation applies? Or should it only be NATO (and not the UN) who makes this types of moral judgments on the rest of the planet. If it is in fact NATO who makes this determination, does that mean that NATO countries are exempt from being dismembered?
Where I'm going with this, is that if you make that sort of argument, it really should be a UN decision, otherwise you'll have countries all over the world "intervening" in their neighbor's countries for "humanitarian reasons" only to carve up that country. It’s a very dangerous precedent. All one need to do is to attack the ruling regime in order to produce a violent response.
While the destruction of property in Kosovo was massive, the death toll was not. 10,000 dead out of a population of 2 million simply does not compare to places like Rwanda. Iraq has had far more causalities, and Saddam treated the Kurdish population far worse (poison gas etc). Even in Turkey, the clash with Kurds has cost as many as 30,000 lives. It’s even a UN candidate, why not a similar response there? Of course, Turkey can outlaw the mere mention of the Armenian genocide and no one cares.
The reality is that we do need to set the ground rules for these types of things. If countries are to be chopped up against their will, there must be very clear guidelines as to when this is appropriate and it needs to be applied in a fair and even manner around the world.
In reality, Kosovo is "unique" because it is in Europe and has strong Western backing for Independence.
I do sympathize with the Albanian position. However, I think the best solution for the region and the future of world relations is a decision based on agreed upon compromise between the Albanians and the Serbians. Partition is the most fair and offers a true chance for compromise solutions. It also sets a positive precedent for how these situations should be handled in the future, and it’s a universal solution that can be applied in any situation. Agreement!
The world is a dark and violent place most of the time. We must find solutions to problems that are universal. What happened in Kosovo happened a million times in history, and there is no reason to believe that identical situations won't occur in the future.
Right now, if you're a big powerful country, you can get away with slaughtering your own people. Or if you are so poor as to not hold any strategic importance for any of the major powers, then no one cares what you do to your own population. This needs to stop!

Matthew - very well put and I agree with many of your points.

However, although partition may seem fair, consider that Kosovo is still part of Serbia and they have said categorically that they do not intend to give it up.

It is not fair to force any nation to give up its land. I believe that the fairest route would be some form of high level autonomy.

I would also add to your final point that powerful countries killing people OUTSIDE their own country also has to stop.

I truly hate the way that poverty and nationality seems to make a life 'worthy' or not - especially in the eyes of the media.

"However, although partition may seem fair, consider that Kosovo is still part of Serbia and they have said categorically that they do not intend to give it up."
I do not support carving up Serbia against "their" will. However, from talking to people it seems to me that this might just be a compromise that both populations could actually support. Then it wouldn't be forcing anyone, it would be an agreed upon solution. Even my wife eventually agreed with me that partition would be best at this point (My poor wife, can you picture her trying to convince me otherwise, ha ha). If by "they" you mean our politicians, I say don't mind 'em, listen to the people!
Its obvious the politicians on both sides are opposing it at this time for political reasons. Serbia hopes to get a better deal, and Albania is hoping for the whole pie. Someone has to budge and start talking about it in a rational manner, because if they don't, its going to happen in a violent manner.
Look at Bosnia, if only Milosevic and Tudjman used diplomacy and democracy to attain their goals (instead of secretly working together in a very violent manner), we wouldn't have had the war there and we could have peacefully split the country between us. Its going to happen eventually, both Croats and Serbs there would rather live under the rule of their brethren.
So I'm only stating the obvious as I'm watching the region totter closer and closer to the edge of descending into violence. My wife's family is from Krajina and they live in RS now. I understand the fear the Albanians have as we Serbs survived true genocide in WWII and I've gazed into the eyes of Ustashe survivors as they told me of the horrors they've endured. No one wants to be a minority in the Balkans, it’s a rough spot to be in. This isn't a game. If we in the Balkans don't take this seriously and set aside our pride, more people are going to die. My family built those monuments and those churches, and I don't want to see them destroyed.
If by being moderate, just one Albanian understands why those churches mean so much to us, that may just save one in whatever future violence may happen.
The way I look at it, in those areas that do not have historical monuments and no Serbian population we have no real interest, I think its madness to want to hang onto those, when we really have no valid reason to do so. The other areas will require some creative thinking, but I think it can be done with great sacrifices on both sides.
Kate, I appreciate your support of the Serbian people greatly, however, I do find it a bit odd for you to be telling me what the Serbian people should want or how we should live. I've seen enough suffering and destroyed villages to last a lifetime. I'm thinking of the big picture. If we set a positive precedent in Kosovo for the peaceful division of territory, then we work with the Croatians on a similar solution for Bosnia as its proven to be a non-viable state in its present condition. Sometimes, we must give up something in order to get something.
I would like to add that I think the way in which you present your message is much better then when you first posted (a little too "radical" for my moderate tastes). I do strongly believe that you contribute positively to our cause, and I thank you for that.

Does anybody on this site know how big is Abbkazi , I mean population wise. Guys wake up is not 2 milion , is only 50000.Besides , no NATO intervention took place in any of this places. Actually the confilcts were fueled by russia themself just to steal teritory from other ex-soviet countries.Russia has stationed soldiers in Abkazi on pretex to protect 50000 russians.

I think the "unknown reason" that Desinov is referring to is the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia.

Well said Mr. Denisov. A very, very rock solid, bullet proof argument. You have just checkmated the Americans and Brits. As Borat would say, 'High Five!'.

I guess the Russians are making themselves very clear for the meeting on Monday just in case the US & a 'few' EU states didn't get the message the other day seeing as they have played deaf for the past year!

I always said that the the Russians have made it their interest that if Kosovo is to be settled the way that the US & a 'few' EU states wished then it would expect the same applied for it's interest in the near abroad i.e. Abkhazia, Priedneister, South Ossetia & Nagoro Karabakh.

Russia had named it's price as such over a year ago but the US and the 'few' EU states contnuied with the deaf act of "sui generis". They knew that they were in a self made trap because they had already agreed and signed a UN resolution reconfirming Serbia's integrity and need Russia to agree be that an affirmative or an abstention! Russia has once more named it's terms for that agreement but all along it has been the US & the 'few' EU who have strung this along because they themselves know China would definitly veto such a resolution. Like Russia says which way does the US & the 'few' EU states want to go - is it self determination or territoial integrity - eitherway it must be the same for all!!!

Mr. Heuschrecker, by "ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s" are you referring to the cleansing of Kosovo Serbs, who still cannot go back home more than 7 years after the end of the war and regardless of the NATO presence? (While Kosovo Albanians were victims of ethnic cleansing, the NATO created conditions for their return, which are notably lacking for Kosovo Serbs.) Just wondering.

Theb fact is that Russia, as an authoritarian, corrupt and expansionist country, wants that Srpska join Serbia, that Kosovo remains in Serbia, and that South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria annex themselves to Russia.

That's it.

"the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia."

Actually, both places had wars and ethnic cleansing starting in 1992, when Georgia broke away. Do your research on it. It wasn't hyped in the news but hundreds of thousands or people in both places left or went there from other places in Georgia.

These are wikipedia articles on the fighting in Abkhazia and Ossetia after Georgia got independence.

The fighting in Ossetia wasn't as bad as Abkhazia and is said to have created 80,000 refugees and between 800-2,000 dead. But in Abkhazia the Georgians claim hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed and 10,000-30,000 dead in the war, which would make it larger than Kosovo by several times.

The Kosovo war is less than 5,000 if you combine those dead with all the missing from all sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia

The total number of killed in the process of ethnic cleansing ranges from 10,000 to 30,000 [18], which does not include the numbers of missing, wounded and tortured people. More than 250,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes. The campaign ethnic cleansing also included Russians, moderate Abkhaz, Armenians, Greeks and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of Schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_War

The South Ossetian War
The most intense period of war was in March and April, 1991; after a period of relative calm in July and August, violence resumed in mid-September. Georgia imposed economic blockade on the rebel region: disconnected electricity supplies to Tskhinvali, and blocked the road by which the city received food and other products. The Ossetians blockaded Georgian villages and several atrocities occurred on both sides. The fighting left hundreds of killed and wounded and created approximately 80,000 refugees on the both sides of the Georgian-Russian border. Georgian forces sat in the hills around Tskhinvali, besieging the city, and other fighting took place around the city in the nearby villages and along the road to North Ossetia.

"that Desinov is referring to is the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo during the 1990s.... notably lacking in South Ossentia and Abkhazia."
Plenty of ethnic cleansing in Krajina, but still no independence…
Srebrenica also comes to mind (death toll as high as the entire Kosovo conflict) yet no independence for them...
Very often Western Officials state that one of the conditions that renders Kosovo "unique" is the fact that it required International Intervention, what they fail to mention is that this intervention was not sanctioned by the UN but by NATO. Considering that Russia troops intervened in Georgia, does that mean the same situation applies? Or should it only be NATO (and not the UN) who makes this types of moral judgments on the rest of the planet. If it is in fact NATO who makes this determination, does that mean that NATO countries are exempt from being dismembered?
Where I'm going with this, is that if you make that sort of argument, it really should be a UN decision, otherwise you'll have countries all over the world "intervening" in their neighbor's countries for "humanitarian reasons" only to carve up that country. It’s a very dangerous precedent. All one need to do is to attack the ruling regime in order to produce a violent response.
While the destruction of property in Kosovo was massive, the death toll was not. 10,000 dead out of a population of 2 million simply does not compare to places like Rwanda. Iraq has had far more causalities, and Saddam treated the Kurdish population far worse (poison gas etc). Even in Turkey, the clash with Kurds has cost as many as 30,000 lives. It’s even a UN candidate, why not a similar response there? Of course, Turkey can outlaw the mere mention of the Armenian genocide and no one cares.
The reality is that we do need to set the ground rules for these types of things. If countries are to be chopped up against their will, there must be very clear guidelines as to when this is appropriate and it needs to be applied in a fair and even manner around the world.
In reality, Kosovo is "unique" because it is in Europe and has strong Western backing for Independence.
I do sympathize with the Albanian position. However, I think the best solution for the region and the future of world relations is a decision based on agreed upon compromise between the Albanians and the Serbians. Partition is the most fair and offers a true chance for compromise solutions. It also sets a positive precedent for how these situations should be handled in the future, and it’s a universal solution that can be applied in any situation. Agreement!
The world is a dark and violent place most of the time. We must find solutions to problems that are universal. What happened in Kosovo happened a million times in history, and there is no reason to believe that identical situations won't occur in the future.
Right now, if you're a big powerful country, you can get away with slaughtering your own people. Or if you are so poor as to not hold any strategic importance for any of the major powers, then no one cares what you do to your own population. This needs to stop!

Matthew - very well put and I agree with many of your points.

However, although partition may seem fair, consider that Kosovo is still part of Serbia and they have said categorically that they do not intend to give it up.

It is not fair to force any nation to give up its land. I believe that the fairest route would be some form of high level autonomy.

I would also add to your final point that powerful countries killing people OUTSIDE their own country also has to stop.

I truly hate the way that poverty and nationality seems to make a life 'worthy' or not - especially in the eyes of the media.

"However, although partition may seem fair, consider that Kosovo is still part of Serbia and they have said categorically that they do not intend to give it up."
I do not support carving up Serbia against "their" will. However, from talking to people it seems to me that this might just be a compromise that both populations could actually support. Then it wouldn't be forcing anyone, it would be an agreed upon solution. Even my wife eventually agreed with me that partition would be best at this point (My poor wife, can you picture her trying to convince me otherwise, ha ha). If by "they" you mean our politicians, I say don't mind 'em, listen to the people!
Its obvious the politicians on both sides are opposing it at this time for political reasons. Serbia hopes to get a better deal, and Albania is hoping for the whole pie. Someone has to budge and start talking about it in a rational manner, because if they don't, its going to happen in a violent manner.
Look at Bosnia, if only Milosevic and Tudjman used diplomacy and democracy to attain their goals (instead of secretly working together in a very violent manner), we wouldn't have had the war there and we could have peacefully split the country between us. Its going to happen eventually, both Croats and Serbs there would rather live under the rule of their brethren.
So I'm only stating the obvious as I'm watching the region totter closer and closer to the edge of descending into violence. My wife's family is from Krajina and they live in RS now. I understand the fear the Albanians have as we Serbs survived true genocide in WWII and I've gazed into the eyes of Ustashe survivors as they told me of the horrors they've endured. No one wants to be a minority in the Balkans, it’s a rough spot to be in. This isn't a game. If we in the Balkans don't take this seriously and set aside our pride, more people are going to die. My family built those monuments and those churches, and I don't want to see them destroyed.
If by being moderate, just one Albanian understands why those churches mean so much to us, that may just save one in whatever future violence may happen.
The way I look at it, in those areas that do not have historical monuments and no Serbian population we have no real interest, I think its madness to want to hang onto those, when we really have no valid reason to do so. The other areas will require some creative thinking, but I think it can be done with great sacrifices on both sides.
Kate, I appreciate your support of the Serbian people greatly, however, I do find it a bit odd for you to be telling me what the Serbian people should want or how we should live. I've seen enough suffering and destroyed villages to last a lifetime. I'm thinking of the big picture. If we set a positive precedent in Kosovo for the peaceful division of territory, then we work with the Croatians on a similar solution for Bosnia as its proven to be a non-viable state in its present condition. Sometimes, we must give up something in order to get something.
I would like to add that I think the way in which you present your message is much better then when you first posted (a little too "radical" for my moderate tastes). I do strongly believe that you contribute positively to our cause, and I thank you for that.

Does anybody on this site know how big is Abbkazi , I mean population wise. Guys wake up is not 2 milion , is only 50000.Besides , no NATO intervention took place in any of this places. Actually the confilcts were fueled by russia themself just to steal teritory from other ex-soviet countries.Russia has stationed soldiers in Abkazi on pretex to protect 50000 russians.