41

Monday, 19.02.2007.

11:28

Hitler’s image on Croatian sugar packets

The Simon Wiesenthal Center has asked Croatia to stop the distribution of sugar packets featuring Hitler’s image.

Izvor: B92

Hitler’s image on Croatian sugar packets IMAGE SOURCE
IMAGE DESCRIPTION

41 Komentari

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Mike Jossel

pre 18 godina

Considering the willing participation of Croats as stooges of the Nazis' persecution of Jews during the Holocaust, it is no surprise that there was no moral outrage against Hitler's picture and antisemitism on sugar packets. Sugar packets are as common as air and eminently accessible to the public, so it illustrates a societal acceptance of bigotry.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Alen posted a "translation" of one sugar packet. Thanks for the help, but sorry, I am not much wiser than I was before. Where is the point? It was a good beginning, but could you Croatian speakers please keep working on the language of these packets so it makes for sense to a foreign audience? Translate into German or French if that is easier. We want the text, not controversy.
Many thanks.
T. Hansen

buzich

pre 18 godina

Mike...

prior to (and listen carefully to my words so they are not anti whatever..) croatien indep, ALL the holiday monies aka tourism $$ made by croatia went to belgrade (did u ever go there? then go to my relatives living on the coast in poverty as opposed to the opulence in Bel. Duh! whyever would they fight for indep!

have a beer and think!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Please post a translation of one of those sugar packets. We would like to be able to have some concrete knowledge of this material in addition to all the other reactions.

Alen

pre 18 godina

here is the translation of this specific sugar box

Basically it says:

"Hiter confronted the Jews.

Hitler: I will pay for your foundation (also could mean tile, or some sort of ceramic flooring, correct me if i'm wrong someone)

Jews: Which? Basically there is a short word in which the Jews are asking Hitler what kind of foundation (flooor, tile)

Hitler: Concrete!

in usa

pre 18 godina

Are these comments being edited? Ignorant opinions removed? Everyone here is more eloquent and has better grammar than any message board I've ever read in the states. There seems to be a complete lack of flaming, and respect is given regardless of viewpoint. It's refreshing. Kudos Y'all!

tinos

pre 18 godina

Ja sam iz Hrvatske!!! I'm from Croatia!!! I've never seen these sugar packets or heard about them... And one more thing: If you're not from Croatia and didn't experience the war we had, don't judge - coment about it, and it's funny how most of you are trying to explain something you don't know or know very little...

Hrvoje Horvat

pre 18 godina

if you want to know the real truth about the war in Croatia 1991-1995 see movie Harrison's Flowers http://imdb.com/title/tt0216799/

Alen

pre 18 godina

Please dont make generalisation about Croats. This is work of few individuals, and certenly does not represent general thought about Hitler and his horrors among Croatian people.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

About the sugar packets:
Would somebody please translate the text of one or two of these, so we can judge the content?
Thanks.
T. Hansen

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

So Victor, you say I am "WRONG" and then conclude that there are two major lingustic groups in Quebec., which is what I am said in the first place. Ethnicity is something different. Here are some statistics for you. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo26f.htm In Wales people speak either English or are bilingual in both English and Welsh. But this doesn't make them two different ethnicities or communities.

Also the Clarity Act in Canada means that Quebec wouldn't be able to unilaterally declare independence like the republics in Yugoslavia did.

George Johansson

pre 18 godina

It would have been better if they would have produced rolls of toiletpaper with the same content printed on it. Then no one would have been offended except the nazis themselves and the antisemitic president of Iran, considering what we usually do with toiletpaper.

Victor

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy.»

WRONG! The French came from france and the English from England. We are two ethnic groups just as the Croats and the Serbs. Of course, many immigrants came from all the nations, even Serbia, and some adopted the French community and others the English community. Thus, you can assert that tehre are two main linguistic groups in Quebec. There are Serbs in Montreal, some speak French and others English. On the other hand, all the Muslim Bosnians arrived in Quebec after speak French.

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy. The Serbs were afraid to live under Tudjman when constitution of Croatia was changed so that status of Serbs went to being a 'national minority' rather than a 'constituent nation'. Also Croatia's treatment of Serbs during WWII was also still very much a strong memory. In retrospect a conference of all the Yugoslav republics should have been held to decide the future of all their people's and the details of any new borders etc, but it was in the interest of the ones wanting secession to attempt it as quickly as possible and violently, especially once they knew they would be recognised. Milošević was the president of Serbia and as such he did not control the JNA, the SFRY presidency, or the Krajina Serb leadership. He had neither de jure nor de facto control over these institutions. For Croatia he supported the Vance Plan and the Z-4 plan. For Bosnia he supported the Lisbon Agreement, the Vance-Owen Plan, the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, the EU Action Plan, and he signed the Dayton Accords. None of these plans, which he supported from the beginning, made a Greater Serbian state possible.

Matt

pre 18 godina

People are increasingly indifferent towards antisemitism because Zionists so liberally apply the "antisemitic" label to anyone they politically disagree with. Before the war on terror, Zionists even accused George W Bush of antisemitism because of political disagreements over funding of the separation anxiety wall in Israel. When Israel's greatest ally is called antisemitic, the term really becomes rather vague and meaningless!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Can anybody please translate the text of any of these sugar packets so we may know details about what is being discussed? We need more facts here? Thanks to the Croatian speaker who does this.

seth

pre 18 godina

They are in terrible taste, but so are many movies produced by Jews in Hollywood. What is the sugar company to be punished for? Offending the Holocaust industry? Upsetting the Weisenthal Center? Freedom includes tolerating the offensive. If every crackpot charge of antisemitism issuing out of the likes of Weisenthal Center and the likes of the always offensive Abe Foxman were punished the world would be a better place. However, putting up with them is part of freedom. Ditto, the idiots at the sugar company. All opinions do not command respect, but they do deserve to be tolerated. It is the essence of liberty.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Fascism in Serbia? Where Daniel? Can you provide a book that has clearly identified fascism in Serbia, or is this just your opinion? I mean are we talking about Milosevic? Because that wasn't fascism. Populist nationalism yes, but not fascism. I suggest you read Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism in order to help you understand the term and where it should be applied. Besides, if you're going to spend he time calling Serbia fascist, you might want to back up your statements with examples.

Victor, as I mentioned in my follow-up comment about Vojvodina, there seems to be strong cases of Serbs living side by side with other ethnic communities. To say that Croats et al simply didn't want to live with Serbs belies their own nationalism and their own exclusionary politics. I'm sure you're well aware of the similar politcs of Tudjman and Milosevic, and even Izetbegovic could be lumped in there too. All three were pursuing policies that demonized the other, and made conditions where no one wanted to live with each other. So I wouldn't just simply exonerate all non-Serbs from this, as you seemed to suggest in your first comment.

serbian lady

pre 18 godina

This is a horrible act against Jewish people.

Croatians as a society have never dealt with the atrocities from the WWII. If it is forgotten, it will happen again.

Andrea

pre 18 godina

I see a growing indifference to anti-semitism. We cannot sit by and let this happen, once again we are called to examine our hearts and minds. World wide we are seeing Christian persecution, as well as this alarming trend of anti-semitism against the Jews. We need to stop it now, before we lose our very humanity.

luciano

pre 18 godina

Stone-Shalom friend. Ask a Jew shopping at one of these stores if he appreciates SOMEBODY bringing attention to this disgusting episode. All evil begins with small moves and if allowed to grow becomes a scourge on all peoples. NO decent human being should stay silent EVER AGAIN when we see these kinds of things anywhere anytime anyhow.Kudos to the Center for showing that many evil people still cling to evil ideas of the not too distant past.NEVER AGAIN

Daniel

pre 18 godina

Lets not over-react people. These packets appeared in small amounts of cafes and was not a croatia-wide thing. While I dont deny there is a small amount of brainless people who do see Hitler as hero (as there are in many countries in the world), lets not immediately turn this into some "croatia is fascist" view.

Criticism about fascism or anyone elses history should especially not be made by serb, given that the last act of fascism was practised by them. and yet to admit to those.

Stone

pre 18 godina

Why is the Weisenthal Center so quick to jump on "Sugar Packets" yet says NOTHING regarding the re-manifestation of anti-Semitic violence in Europe, Canada and the U.S. perpetrated by MOSTLY muslim fascists. The Weisenthal Center will be happy to after Actors (Mel Gibson), Movies (Passion of the Christ), and Sugar Packets, yet does NOTHING about REAL VIOLENCE. As a Jew, I can tell you that the Weisenthal Center has turned from a great protector of Man's humanity to an outpost and guardian of Political Correctness.

Regarding the Sugar Packets - We know these people are morons, I don't need Simon Weisenthal's hypocritical organization to tell me that.

When the Weisenthal center starts to decry Muslim Fascism for what it is, then I will pay attention. Until then, they are no better than the JUDENRAT of the Warsaw Ghetto!

SUGAR PACKETS! - Jeepers!

Victor

pre 18 godina

Mike, I just find it surprising that Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins and Albanians wanted to be independent with Serbia, and none of the nations wanted to live with the Serbs. Any explanation?

Mike

pre 18 godina

Let me also add that if it's now a universal policy to argue that it is so difficult to live with Serbs, can someone explain the continued multiethnic character of Vojvodina, quite possibly the most multicultural region in the Balkans, where ethnic communities not only live side by side, but all have some form of cultural autonomy and local self-government?

Victor

pre 18 godina

Philip, the Serbs were a minority in both countries, as the English are a minority in Quebec. Canada cannot stop Quebec from becoming independent because there are 12% of anglophones living with us. It was the same in Croatia and and Bosnia. If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country. They tried to stop the independence,waging war with their neighbours, and they have created conditions which are worse now than then. Instead, they could have sat together and tried to negociate acceptable conditions or even (un partage de territoires) an exchange of territories. Anything but a war! Milosevic had a plan which was the creation of Greater Serbia, and because he had the force of the army with him, he decided to take by force the territories he wanted... ethnically cleansing Croatia and Bosnia.

sreten

pre 18 godina

Victor, you seem to think that it's just too difficult to live with Serbs. As example, you talk about Croatia, Bosnia, Albanians in Kosovo.
That was not a problem. As far as I remember, problem in Bosnia and Croatia was precisely BECAUSE they wanted to live with Serbs (but not with all of them).
If it's so hard to live with Serbs, problem is easy to solve.
Albanians have to give up Norther Kosovo (and to get Presevo Valley), Bosnia has to give up Serb Republic, and Croatia has to give up Krajina.
There, problem solved.

philip.davies

pre 18 godina

Victor, remember Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were republics of Yugoslavia and not a sub-area of Serbia like Kosovo is. In other words the republic of Serbia had no say in what happened in those republics. Also I find it a strange argument that independence was the right choice for those two republics because it was "difficult to live with the Serbs" as Serbs made up 1/8th and 1/3th in Croatia and BiH respectively. Independence meant taking those substantial “minority” populations with them out of the Federal Yugoslavia (or ultimately only part of that Serb population in Croatia’s case - 581,663 Serbs & 106,041 Yugoslavs in 1991, 201,631 Serbs and 176 Yugoslavs in 2001).

Jack Kellerman

pre 18 godina

I hope the local Jewish organizations in Croatia establish a program for Croatian school system to teach them about the holocaust. The ustashe regime during the second world war murdered between 250,000 to 500,000 Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies.

lollee

pre 18 godina

Wanting independence as a democratic nation is one issue, however, distributing sugar packets with Hitler's image on it is not a positive sign that Croatia is a free and democratic society who has come to terms with their own collaborator past. I disagree that Croations regret the crimes against any Serb, Roma or Jew. Has any of their stolen property been returned? Has the Jewish temple that was destroyed brick by brick in Zagreb rebuilt? Why is it, if Croatia is soo open and friendly, does the Jewish Community Center have poiliceman protecting it as well as bullet-proof glass? This is just on-going.

Victor

pre 18 godina

There are exceptions everywhere. If Tudjman wanted the independence from Serbia, it is certainly for some very good reasons. Bosnia wanted also to be independent. For what reasons? Is it because it is too difficult to live with the Serbs? Now, the Albanians wat their independence also. The answer seems clear to me.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Victor, try not to shoot yourself in the foot with your counterarguments. You first say that we should not collectively lump all Croats together as closet Nazi sympathizers, but pinpoint a few "idiot Ustashe". I agree with you completely. But at the same time then, don't go into collectively lumping Serbs together as people bent on terrorizing the Balkans in the 1990s and as people no one would want to live with. If you're going to play fair to one group, you should play fair to the other.

Anthony Shelmerdine

pre 18 godina

Showing your limited knowledge of the region again Victor.

Many Croats would oppose, like all nations, the Holocaust againts the Jews. However, many would support the Holocaust that the NDH launched against Serbs and Roma.

The Croatian state in the 1990's embraced many symbols of Croation statehood that had been adopted by the Ustase. However, where most modern democratic states would reject these symbols as they had been tainted by the monsterous NDH, Tudjman adopted them with glee regardless of the fear amongst non-Croats that they caused.

Victor

pre 18 godina

The people, you say! I would say a few idiot ustase in the sugar company. I am sure that the people of Croatia do not side with Hitler and oppose as all the nations the Holocaust against the Jews.

T Payne

pre 18 godina

This business with Hitler's image on Croatian sugar packets is not just about Croatia but also about their German backers.

While Germany attempts, as usual, to pressure the rest of Europe into adopting laws that make Holocaust denial illegal, they ignore real manifestations of anti-semitism in a country whose so-called 'independence' they cynically and aggressively backed in 1992 in order to demonstrate their own dominance in Europe.

Their support at that time for the open anti-semite and Holocaust denier, Franjo Tudjman, was an example of how fascism is rearing its head again with a new face - warped political correctness via an over-regulated Europe.

Those Serbs who continue to shed crocodile tears regarding their supposed communal guilt over Srebrenica, et al - even if such guilt has some real foundation - ought to bear that in mind before they so gladly sell their souls to Europe.

I doubt if an image of Hitler on a Serbian product would have lasted one day, even when Milosevic was around.

BK-47

pre 18 godina

"Lack of reaction" - no surprise there to say the least.

50 years on and people still treat Hitler in high regard. very sad......

seth

pre 18 godina

They are in terrible taste, but so are many movies produced by Jews in Hollywood. What is the sugar company to be punished for? Offending the Holocaust industry? Upsetting the Weisenthal Center? Freedom includes tolerating the offensive. If every crackpot charge of antisemitism issuing out of the likes of Weisenthal Center and the likes of the always offensive Abe Foxman were punished the world would be a better place. However, putting up with them is part of freedom. Ditto, the idiots at the sugar company. All opinions do not command respect, but they do deserve to be tolerated. It is the essence of liberty.

Matt

pre 18 godina

People are increasingly indifferent towards antisemitism because Zionists so liberally apply the "antisemitic" label to anyone they politically disagree with. Before the war on terror, Zionists even accused George W Bush of antisemitism because of political disagreements over funding of the separation anxiety wall in Israel. When Israel's greatest ally is called antisemitic, the term really becomes rather vague and meaningless!

Hrvoje Horvat

pre 18 godina

if you want to know the real truth about the war in Croatia 1991-1995 see movie Harrison's Flowers http://imdb.com/title/tt0216799/

BK-47

pre 18 godina

"Lack of reaction" - no surprise there to say the least.

50 years on and people still treat Hitler in high regard. very sad......

T Payne

pre 18 godina

This business with Hitler's image on Croatian sugar packets is not just about Croatia but also about their German backers.

While Germany attempts, as usual, to pressure the rest of Europe into adopting laws that make Holocaust denial illegal, they ignore real manifestations of anti-semitism in a country whose so-called 'independence' they cynically and aggressively backed in 1992 in order to demonstrate their own dominance in Europe.

Their support at that time for the open anti-semite and Holocaust denier, Franjo Tudjman, was an example of how fascism is rearing its head again with a new face - warped political correctness via an over-regulated Europe.

Those Serbs who continue to shed crocodile tears regarding their supposed communal guilt over Srebrenica, et al - even if such guilt has some real foundation - ought to bear that in mind before they so gladly sell their souls to Europe.

I doubt if an image of Hitler on a Serbian product would have lasted one day, even when Milosevic was around.

Victor

pre 18 godina

The people, you say! I would say a few idiot ustase in the sugar company. I am sure that the people of Croatia do not side with Hitler and oppose as all the nations the Holocaust against the Jews.

Anthony Shelmerdine

pre 18 godina

Showing your limited knowledge of the region again Victor.

Many Croats would oppose, like all nations, the Holocaust againts the Jews. However, many would support the Holocaust that the NDH launched against Serbs and Roma.

The Croatian state in the 1990's embraced many symbols of Croation statehood that had been adopted by the Ustase. However, where most modern democratic states would reject these symbols as they had been tainted by the monsterous NDH, Tudjman adopted them with glee regardless of the fear amongst non-Croats that they caused.

Victor

pre 18 godina

There are exceptions everywhere. If Tudjman wanted the independence from Serbia, it is certainly for some very good reasons. Bosnia wanted also to be independent. For what reasons? Is it because it is too difficult to live with the Serbs? Now, the Albanians wat their independence also. The answer seems clear to me.

lollee

pre 18 godina

Wanting independence as a democratic nation is one issue, however, distributing sugar packets with Hitler's image on it is not a positive sign that Croatia is a free and democratic society who has come to terms with their own collaborator past. I disagree that Croations regret the crimes against any Serb, Roma or Jew. Has any of their stolen property been returned? Has the Jewish temple that was destroyed brick by brick in Zagreb rebuilt? Why is it, if Croatia is soo open and friendly, does the Jewish Community Center have poiliceman protecting it as well as bullet-proof glass? This is just on-going.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Victor, try not to shoot yourself in the foot with your counterarguments. You first say that we should not collectively lump all Croats together as closet Nazi sympathizers, but pinpoint a few "idiot Ustashe". I agree with you completely. But at the same time then, don't go into collectively lumping Serbs together as people bent on terrorizing the Balkans in the 1990s and as people no one would want to live with. If you're going to play fair to one group, you should play fair to the other.

Jack Kellerman

pre 18 godina

I hope the local Jewish organizations in Croatia establish a program for Croatian school system to teach them about the holocaust. The ustashe regime during the second world war murdered between 250,000 to 500,000 Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies.

philip.davies

pre 18 godina

Victor, remember Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were republics of Yugoslavia and not a sub-area of Serbia like Kosovo is. In other words the republic of Serbia had no say in what happened in those republics. Also I find it a strange argument that independence was the right choice for those two republics because it was "difficult to live with the Serbs" as Serbs made up 1/8th and 1/3th in Croatia and BiH respectively. Independence meant taking those substantial “minority” populations with them out of the Federal Yugoslavia (or ultimately only part of that Serb population in Croatia’s case - 581,663 Serbs & 106,041 Yugoslavs in 1991, 201,631 Serbs and 176 Yugoslavs in 2001).

sreten

pre 18 godina

Victor, you seem to think that it's just too difficult to live with Serbs. As example, you talk about Croatia, Bosnia, Albanians in Kosovo.
That was not a problem. As far as I remember, problem in Bosnia and Croatia was precisely BECAUSE they wanted to live with Serbs (but not with all of them).
If it's so hard to live with Serbs, problem is easy to solve.
Albanians have to give up Norther Kosovo (and to get Presevo Valley), Bosnia has to give up Serb Republic, and Croatia has to give up Krajina.
There, problem solved.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Let me also add that if it's now a universal policy to argue that it is so difficult to live with Serbs, can someone explain the continued multiethnic character of Vojvodina, quite possibly the most multicultural region in the Balkans, where ethnic communities not only live side by side, but all have some form of cultural autonomy and local self-government?

Victor

pre 18 godina

Mike, I just find it surprising that Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins and Albanians wanted to be independent with Serbia, and none of the nations wanted to live with the Serbs. Any explanation?

Victor

pre 18 godina

Philip, the Serbs were a minority in both countries, as the English are a minority in Quebec. Canada cannot stop Quebec from becoming independent because there are 12% of anglophones living with us. It was the same in Croatia and and Bosnia. If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country. They tried to stop the independence,waging war with their neighbours, and they have created conditions which are worse now than then. Instead, they could have sat together and tried to negociate acceptable conditions or even (un partage de territoires) an exchange of territories. Anything but a war! Milosevic had a plan which was the creation of Greater Serbia, and because he had the force of the army with him, he decided to take by force the territories he wanted... ethnically cleansing Croatia and Bosnia.

Stone

pre 18 godina

Why is the Weisenthal Center so quick to jump on "Sugar Packets" yet says NOTHING regarding the re-manifestation of anti-Semitic violence in Europe, Canada and the U.S. perpetrated by MOSTLY muslim fascists. The Weisenthal Center will be happy to after Actors (Mel Gibson), Movies (Passion of the Christ), and Sugar Packets, yet does NOTHING about REAL VIOLENCE. As a Jew, I can tell you that the Weisenthal Center has turned from a great protector of Man's humanity to an outpost and guardian of Political Correctness.

Regarding the Sugar Packets - We know these people are morons, I don't need Simon Weisenthal's hypocritical organization to tell me that.

When the Weisenthal center starts to decry Muslim Fascism for what it is, then I will pay attention. Until then, they are no better than the JUDENRAT of the Warsaw Ghetto!

SUGAR PACKETS! - Jeepers!

Andrea

pre 18 godina

I see a growing indifference to anti-semitism. We cannot sit by and let this happen, once again we are called to examine our hearts and minds. World wide we are seeing Christian persecution, as well as this alarming trend of anti-semitism against the Jews. We need to stop it now, before we lose our very humanity.

luciano

pre 18 godina

Stone-Shalom friend. Ask a Jew shopping at one of these stores if he appreciates SOMEBODY bringing attention to this disgusting episode. All evil begins with small moves and if allowed to grow becomes a scourge on all peoples. NO decent human being should stay silent EVER AGAIN when we see these kinds of things anywhere anytime anyhow.Kudos to the Center for showing that many evil people still cling to evil ideas of the not too distant past.NEVER AGAIN

Daniel

pre 18 godina

Lets not over-react people. These packets appeared in small amounts of cafes and was not a croatia-wide thing. While I dont deny there is a small amount of brainless people who do see Hitler as hero (as there are in many countries in the world), lets not immediately turn this into some "croatia is fascist" view.

Criticism about fascism or anyone elses history should especially not be made by serb, given that the last act of fascism was practised by them. and yet to admit to those.

serbian lady

pre 18 godina

This is a horrible act against Jewish people.

Croatians as a society have never dealt with the atrocities from the WWII. If it is forgotten, it will happen again.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Fascism in Serbia? Where Daniel? Can you provide a book that has clearly identified fascism in Serbia, or is this just your opinion? I mean are we talking about Milosevic? Because that wasn't fascism. Populist nationalism yes, but not fascism. I suggest you read Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism in order to help you understand the term and where it should be applied. Besides, if you're going to spend he time calling Serbia fascist, you might want to back up your statements with examples.

Victor, as I mentioned in my follow-up comment about Vojvodina, there seems to be strong cases of Serbs living side by side with other ethnic communities. To say that Croats et al simply didn't want to live with Serbs belies their own nationalism and their own exclusionary politics. I'm sure you're well aware of the similar politcs of Tudjman and Milosevic, and even Izetbegovic could be lumped in there too. All three were pursuing policies that demonized the other, and made conditions where no one wanted to live with each other. So I wouldn't just simply exonerate all non-Serbs from this, as you seemed to suggest in your first comment.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Can anybody please translate the text of any of these sugar packets so we may know details about what is being discussed? We need more facts here? Thanks to the Croatian speaker who does this.

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy. The Serbs were afraid to live under Tudjman when constitution of Croatia was changed so that status of Serbs went to being a 'national minority' rather than a 'constituent nation'. Also Croatia's treatment of Serbs during WWII was also still very much a strong memory. In retrospect a conference of all the Yugoslav republics should have been held to decide the future of all their people's and the details of any new borders etc, but it was in the interest of the ones wanting secession to attempt it as quickly as possible and violently, especially once they knew they would be recognised. Milošević was the president of Serbia and as such he did not control the JNA, the SFRY presidency, or the Krajina Serb leadership. He had neither de jure nor de facto control over these institutions. For Croatia he supported the Vance Plan and the Z-4 plan. For Bosnia he supported the Lisbon Agreement, the Vance-Owen Plan, the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, the EU Action Plan, and he signed the Dayton Accords. None of these plans, which he supported from the beginning, made a Greater Serbian state possible.

Victor

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy.»

WRONG! The French came from france and the English from England. We are two ethnic groups just as the Croats and the Serbs. Of course, many immigrants came from all the nations, even Serbia, and some adopted the French community and others the English community. Thus, you can assert that tehre are two main linguistic groups in Quebec. There are Serbs in Montreal, some speak French and others English. On the other hand, all the Muslim Bosnians arrived in Quebec after speak French.

George Johansson

pre 18 godina

It would have been better if they would have produced rolls of toiletpaper with the same content printed on it. Then no one would have been offended except the nazis themselves and the antisemitic president of Iran, considering what we usually do with toiletpaper.

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

So Victor, you say I am "WRONG" and then conclude that there are two major lingustic groups in Quebec., which is what I am said in the first place. Ethnicity is something different. Here are some statistics for you. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo26f.htm In Wales people speak either English or are bilingual in both English and Welsh. But this doesn't make them two different ethnicities or communities.

Also the Clarity Act in Canada means that Quebec wouldn't be able to unilaterally declare independence like the republics in Yugoslavia did.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

About the sugar packets:
Would somebody please translate the text of one or two of these, so we can judge the content?
Thanks.
T. Hansen

Alen

pre 18 godina

Please dont make generalisation about Croats. This is work of few individuals, and certenly does not represent general thought about Hitler and his horrors among Croatian people.

tinos

pre 18 godina

Ja sam iz Hrvatske!!! I'm from Croatia!!! I've never seen these sugar packets or heard about them... And one more thing: If you're not from Croatia and didn't experience the war we had, don't judge - coment about it, and it's funny how most of you are trying to explain something you don't know or know very little...

in usa

pre 18 godina

Are these comments being edited? Ignorant opinions removed? Everyone here is more eloquent and has better grammar than any message board I've ever read in the states. There seems to be a complete lack of flaming, and respect is given regardless of viewpoint. It's refreshing. Kudos Y'all!

Alen

pre 18 godina

here is the translation of this specific sugar box

Basically it says:

"Hiter confronted the Jews.

Hitler: I will pay for your foundation (also could mean tile, or some sort of ceramic flooring, correct me if i'm wrong someone)

Jews: Which? Basically there is a short word in which the Jews are asking Hitler what kind of foundation (flooor, tile)

Hitler: Concrete!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Please post a translation of one of those sugar packets. We would like to be able to have some concrete knowledge of this material in addition to all the other reactions.

buzich

pre 18 godina

Mike...

prior to (and listen carefully to my words so they are not anti whatever..) croatien indep, ALL the holiday monies aka tourism $$ made by croatia went to belgrade (did u ever go there? then go to my relatives living on the coast in poverty as opposed to the opulence in Bel. Duh! whyever would they fight for indep!

have a beer and think!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Alen posted a "translation" of one sugar packet. Thanks for the help, but sorry, I am not much wiser than I was before. Where is the point? It was a good beginning, but could you Croatian speakers please keep working on the language of these packets so it makes for sense to a foreign audience? Translate into German or French if that is easier. We want the text, not controversy.
Many thanks.
T. Hansen

Mike Jossel

pre 18 godina

Considering the willing participation of Croats as stooges of the Nazis' persecution of Jews during the Holocaust, it is no surprise that there was no moral outrage against Hitler's picture and antisemitism on sugar packets. Sugar packets are as common as air and eminently accessible to the public, so it illustrates a societal acceptance of bigotry.

serbian lady

pre 18 godina

This is a horrible act against Jewish people.

Croatians as a society have never dealt with the atrocities from the WWII. If it is forgotten, it will happen again.

BK-47

pre 18 godina

"Lack of reaction" - no surprise there to say the least.

50 years on and people still treat Hitler in high regard. very sad......

T Payne

pre 18 godina

This business with Hitler's image on Croatian sugar packets is not just about Croatia but also about their German backers.

While Germany attempts, as usual, to pressure the rest of Europe into adopting laws that make Holocaust denial illegal, they ignore real manifestations of anti-semitism in a country whose so-called 'independence' they cynically and aggressively backed in 1992 in order to demonstrate their own dominance in Europe.

Their support at that time for the open anti-semite and Holocaust denier, Franjo Tudjman, was an example of how fascism is rearing its head again with a new face - warped political correctness via an over-regulated Europe.

Those Serbs who continue to shed crocodile tears regarding their supposed communal guilt over Srebrenica, et al - even if such guilt has some real foundation - ought to bear that in mind before they so gladly sell their souls to Europe.

I doubt if an image of Hitler on a Serbian product would have lasted one day, even when Milosevic was around.

Victor

pre 18 godina

The people, you say! I would say a few idiot ustase in the sugar company. I am sure that the people of Croatia do not side with Hitler and oppose as all the nations the Holocaust against the Jews.

Anthony Shelmerdine

pre 18 godina

Showing your limited knowledge of the region again Victor.

Many Croats would oppose, like all nations, the Holocaust againts the Jews. However, many would support the Holocaust that the NDH launched against Serbs and Roma.

The Croatian state in the 1990's embraced many symbols of Croation statehood that had been adopted by the Ustase. However, where most modern democratic states would reject these symbols as they had been tainted by the monsterous NDH, Tudjman adopted them with glee regardless of the fear amongst non-Croats that they caused.

Victor

pre 18 godina

There are exceptions everywhere. If Tudjman wanted the independence from Serbia, it is certainly for some very good reasons. Bosnia wanted also to be independent. For what reasons? Is it because it is too difficult to live with the Serbs? Now, the Albanians wat their independence also. The answer seems clear to me.

lollee

pre 18 godina

Wanting independence as a democratic nation is one issue, however, distributing sugar packets with Hitler's image on it is not a positive sign that Croatia is a free and democratic society who has come to terms with their own collaborator past. I disagree that Croations regret the crimes against any Serb, Roma or Jew. Has any of their stolen property been returned? Has the Jewish temple that was destroyed brick by brick in Zagreb rebuilt? Why is it, if Croatia is soo open and friendly, does the Jewish Community Center have poiliceman protecting it as well as bullet-proof glass? This is just on-going.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Victor, try not to shoot yourself in the foot with your counterarguments. You first say that we should not collectively lump all Croats together as closet Nazi sympathizers, but pinpoint a few "idiot Ustashe". I agree with you completely. But at the same time then, don't go into collectively lumping Serbs together as people bent on terrorizing the Balkans in the 1990s and as people no one would want to live with. If you're going to play fair to one group, you should play fair to the other.

Jack Kellerman

pre 18 godina

I hope the local Jewish organizations in Croatia establish a program for Croatian school system to teach them about the holocaust. The ustashe regime during the second world war murdered between 250,000 to 500,000 Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies.

philip.davies

pre 18 godina

Victor, remember Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were republics of Yugoslavia and not a sub-area of Serbia like Kosovo is. In other words the republic of Serbia had no say in what happened in those republics. Also I find it a strange argument that independence was the right choice for those two republics because it was "difficult to live with the Serbs" as Serbs made up 1/8th and 1/3th in Croatia and BiH respectively. Independence meant taking those substantial “minority” populations with them out of the Federal Yugoslavia (or ultimately only part of that Serb population in Croatia’s case - 581,663 Serbs & 106,041 Yugoslavs in 1991, 201,631 Serbs and 176 Yugoslavs in 2001).

sreten

pre 18 godina

Victor, you seem to think that it's just too difficult to live with Serbs. As example, you talk about Croatia, Bosnia, Albanians in Kosovo.
That was not a problem. As far as I remember, problem in Bosnia and Croatia was precisely BECAUSE they wanted to live with Serbs (but not with all of them).
If it's so hard to live with Serbs, problem is easy to solve.
Albanians have to give up Norther Kosovo (and to get Presevo Valley), Bosnia has to give up Serb Republic, and Croatia has to give up Krajina.
There, problem solved.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Let me also add that if it's now a universal policy to argue that it is so difficult to live with Serbs, can someone explain the continued multiethnic character of Vojvodina, quite possibly the most multicultural region in the Balkans, where ethnic communities not only live side by side, but all have some form of cultural autonomy and local self-government?

Victor

pre 18 godina

Mike, I just find it surprising that Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins and Albanians wanted to be independent with Serbia, and none of the nations wanted to live with the Serbs. Any explanation?

Victor

pre 18 godina

Philip, the Serbs were a minority in both countries, as the English are a minority in Quebec. Canada cannot stop Quebec from becoming independent because there are 12% of anglophones living with us. It was the same in Croatia and and Bosnia. If the Serbs were afraid to live under Croat and Bosnian rules, they only had to live the country. They tried to stop the independence,waging war with their neighbours, and they have created conditions which are worse now than then. Instead, they could have sat together and tried to negociate acceptable conditions or even (un partage de territoires) an exchange of territories. Anything but a war! Milosevic had a plan which was the creation of Greater Serbia, and because he had the force of the army with him, he decided to take by force the territories he wanted... ethnically cleansing Croatia and Bosnia.

Stone

pre 18 godina

Why is the Weisenthal Center so quick to jump on "Sugar Packets" yet says NOTHING regarding the re-manifestation of anti-Semitic violence in Europe, Canada and the U.S. perpetrated by MOSTLY muslim fascists. The Weisenthal Center will be happy to after Actors (Mel Gibson), Movies (Passion of the Christ), and Sugar Packets, yet does NOTHING about REAL VIOLENCE. As a Jew, I can tell you that the Weisenthal Center has turned from a great protector of Man's humanity to an outpost and guardian of Political Correctness.

Regarding the Sugar Packets - We know these people are morons, I don't need Simon Weisenthal's hypocritical organization to tell me that.

When the Weisenthal center starts to decry Muslim Fascism for what it is, then I will pay attention. Until then, they are no better than the JUDENRAT of the Warsaw Ghetto!

SUGAR PACKETS! - Jeepers!

Andrea

pre 18 godina

I see a growing indifference to anti-semitism. We cannot sit by and let this happen, once again we are called to examine our hearts and minds. World wide we are seeing Christian persecution, as well as this alarming trend of anti-semitism against the Jews. We need to stop it now, before we lose our very humanity.

luciano

pre 18 godina

Stone-Shalom friend. Ask a Jew shopping at one of these stores if he appreciates SOMEBODY bringing attention to this disgusting episode. All evil begins with small moves and if allowed to grow becomes a scourge on all peoples. NO decent human being should stay silent EVER AGAIN when we see these kinds of things anywhere anytime anyhow.Kudos to the Center for showing that many evil people still cling to evil ideas of the not too distant past.NEVER AGAIN

Daniel

pre 18 godina

Lets not over-react people. These packets appeared in small amounts of cafes and was not a croatia-wide thing. While I dont deny there is a small amount of brainless people who do see Hitler as hero (as there are in many countries in the world), lets not immediately turn this into some "croatia is fascist" view.

Criticism about fascism or anyone elses history should especially not be made by serb, given that the last act of fascism was practised by them. and yet to admit to those.

Mike

pre 18 godina

Fascism in Serbia? Where Daniel? Can you provide a book that has clearly identified fascism in Serbia, or is this just your opinion? I mean are we talking about Milosevic? Because that wasn't fascism. Populist nationalism yes, but not fascism. I suggest you read Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism in order to help you understand the term and where it should be applied. Besides, if you're going to spend he time calling Serbia fascist, you might want to back up your statements with examples.

Victor, as I mentioned in my follow-up comment about Vojvodina, there seems to be strong cases of Serbs living side by side with other ethnic communities. To say that Croats et al simply didn't want to live with Serbs belies their own nationalism and their own exclusionary politics. I'm sure you're well aware of the similar politcs of Tudjman and Milosevic, and even Izetbegovic could be lumped in there too. All three were pursuing policies that demonized the other, and made conditions where no one wanted to live with each other. So I wouldn't just simply exonerate all non-Serbs from this, as you seemed to suggest in your first comment.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Can anybody please translate the text of any of these sugar packets so we may know details about what is being discussed? We need more facts here? Thanks to the Croatian speaker who does this.

seth

pre 18 godina

They are in terrible taste, but so are many movies produced by Jews in Hollywood. What is the sugar company to be punished for? Offending the Holocaust industry? Upsetting the Weisenthal Center? Freedom includes tolerating the offensive. If every crackpot charge of antisemitism issuing out of the likes of Weisenthal Center and the likes of the always offensive Abe Foxman were punished the world would be a better place. However, putting up with them is part of freedom. Ditto, the idiots at the sugar company. All opinions do not command respect, but they do deserve to be tolerated. It is the essence of liberty.

Matt

pre 18 godina

People are increasingly indifferent towards antisemitism because Zionists so liberally apply the "antisemitic" label to anyone they politically disagree with. Before the war on terror, Zionists even accused George W Bush of antisemitism because of political disagreements over funding of the separation anxiety wall in Israel. When Israel's greatest ally is called antisemitic, the term really becomes rather vague and meaningless!

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy. The Serbs were afraid to live under Tudjman when constitution of Croatia was changed so that status of Serbs went to being a 'national minority' rather than a 'constituent nation'. Also Croatia's treatment of Serbs during WWII was also still very much a strong memory. In retrospect a conference of all the Yugoslav republics should have been held to decide the future of all their people's and the details of any new borders etc, but it was in the interest of the ones wanting secession to attempt it as quickly as possible and violently, especially once they knew they would be recognised. Milošević was the president of Serbia and as such he did not control the JNA, the SFRY presidency, or the Krajina Serb leadership. He had neither de jure nor de facto control over these institutions. For Croatia he supported the Vance Plan and the Z-4 plan. For Bosnia he supported the Lisbon Agreement, the Vance-Owen Plan, the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, the EU Action Plan, and he signed the Dayton Accords. None of these plans, which he supported from the beginning, made a Greater Serbian state possible.

Victor

pre 18 godina

Well the "English" in Quebec is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity so I don't that it really is a valid analogy.»

WRONG! The French came from france and the English from England. We are two ethnic groups just as the Croats and the Serbs. Of course, many immigrants came from all the nations, even Serbia, and some adopted the French community and others the English community. Thus, you can assert that tehre are two main linguistic groups in Quebec. There are Serbs in Montreal, some speak French and others English. On the other hand, all the Muslim Bosnians arrived in Quebec after speak French.

George Johansson

pre 18 godina

It would have been better if they would have produced rolls of toiletpaper with the same content printed on it. Then no one would have been offended except the nazis themselves and the antisemitic president of Iran, considering what we usually do with toiletpaper.

Philip Davies

pre 18 godina

So Victor, you say I am "WRONG" and then conclude that there are two major lingustic groups in Quebec., which is what I am said in the first place. Ethnicity is something different. Here are some statistics for you. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo26f.htm In Wales people speak either English or are bilingual in both English and Welsh. But this doesn't make them two different ethnicities or communities.

Also the Clarity Act in Canada means that Quebec wouldn't be able to unilaterally declare independence like the republics in Yugoslavia did.

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

About the sugar packets:
Would somebody please translate the text of one or two of these, so we can judge the content?
Thanks.
T. Hansen

Alen

pre 18 godina

Please dont make generalisation about Croats. This is work of few individuals, and certenly does not represent general thought about Hitler and his horrors among Croatian people.

Hrvoje Horvat

pre 18 godina

if you want to know the real truth about the war in Croatia 1991-1995 see movie Harrison's Flowers http://imdb.com/title/tt0216799/

tinos

pre 18 godina

Ja sam iz Hrvatske!!! I'm from Croatia!!! I've never seen these sugar packets or heard about them... And one more thing: If you're not from Croatia and didn't experience the war we had, don't judge - coment about it, and it's funny how most of you are trying to explain something you don't know or know very little...

in usa

pre 18 godina

Are these comments being edited? Ignorant opinions removed? Everyone here is more eloquent and has better grammar than any message board I've ever read in the states. There seems to be a complete lack of flaming, and respect is given regardless of viewpoint. It's refreshing. Kudos Y'all!

Alen

pre 18 godina

here is the translation of this specific sugar box

Basically it says:

"Hiter confronted the Jews.

Hitler: I will pay for your foundation (also could mean tile, or some sort of ceramic flooring, correct me if i'm wrong someone)

Jews: Which? Basically there is a short word in which the Jews are asking Hitler what kind of foundation (flooor, tile)

Hitler: Concrete!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Please post a translation of one of those sugar packets. We would like to be able to have some concrete knowledge of this material in addition to all the other reactions.

buzich

pre 18 godina

Mike...

prior to (and listen carefully to my words so they are not anti whatever..) croatien indep, ALL the holiday monies aka tourism $$ made by croatia went to belgrade (did u ever go there? then go to my relatives living on the coast in poverty as opposed to the opulence in Bel. Duh! whyever would they fight for indep!

have a beer and think!

Thomas Hansen

pre 18 godina

Alen posted a "translation" of one sugar packet. Thanks for the help, but sorry, I am not much wiser than I was before. Where is the point? It was a good beginning, but could you Croatian speakers please keep working on the language of these packets so it makes for sense to a foreign audience? Translate into German or French if that is easier. We want the text, not controversy.
Many thanks.
T. Hansen

Mike Jossel

pre 18 godina

Considering the willing participation of Croats as stooges of the Nazis' persecution of Jews during the Holocaust, it is no surprise that there was no moral outrage against Hitler's picture and antisemitism on sugar packets. Sugar packets are as common as air and eminently accessible to the public, so it illustrates a societal acceptance of bigotry.