 | | Rajko Danilović |
B92: Mr. Rajko Danilović, the Đinđić family attorney in the Prime Minister Zoran Đinđić’s assassination trial, will be with us during the next half hour. Before we discuss the consequences of Judge Kljajević’s resignation on the process itself, as well as the expectations from the testimony by Dejan Milenković, the protected witness, please tell us your impressions about the events that took place in front of our building last night, after the Impression of the Week talk show.
As the guests and the host were leaving the studio, Nataša Kandić among them, three shots were heard. The police was not present at the scene, as far as I know; they showed up only this morning. They claim the sound came from exploding firecrackers. What is your opinion on all this, even if those were indeed firecrackers?
Danilović: Well, my impression is that this illustrates the state of Serbia perfectly. Serbia is not only incapable of facing its own past, it is not even capable of listening to any opinion that doesn’t toe the official line. When I say Serbia, I mean the authorities, the organization of power that is quite diffused. There’s the government, the ministries, there’s the Interior Ministry, the Justice Ministry, which is offering televised explanations on the goings-on daily, there’s the press under complete control, with two-thirds of its editorial staff coming from Bosnia. Therefore, the society is under control, or is being placed under control.
As soon as an anomaly occurs, as soon as there is a point of view different than, let’s say, the controlled opinion, there’s conflict. Last night there was significant difference between Nataša Kandić and the two other guests in the talk show. Nataša Kandić tried to tell the people: face what happened, so that we can gain our ground, so that we can measure ourselves against our past prior to the talks with Albanians and the international community, discover why we were bombarded, evaluate Kosovo today, and what will come tomorrow. If Kosovo gains some form of independence, and it certainly will, what about the Kosovo Serbs? What about the Albanians, our neighbors? Are we going to establish trade and other relations with them, because that is a natural kind of intertwining, not a matter of good will?
Well, when the row based on these issues broke out in the show last night, and when this Democratic Party of Serbia spokesman, I can’t recall his name, when he started stubbornly repeating, “Kosovo is Serbian, Kosovo is Serbian…”, that was nonsense. Kosovo was Serbian, there’s no arguing with that, and now it isn’t, and all due to Serbian follies, but that’s a different question I wouldn’t go into right now. When the row occurred there were, I’m guessing, volunteers, three plain-clothes policemen happened to be there, since, they say, they realized the show was a high-risk event. Where are we? Airing different views constitutes for high risk?
What it means is that beside the official, no other opinion is allowed. We live in a regime of dictated opinion that dwarfs that of Milošević. At least during his reign we had a serious opposition, we had the opposition media, even electronic media, which was banned, the police would get involved…
B92: Journalists were murdered.
Danilović: … journalists were murdered, all sorts of things took place, but they offered resistance. This now comes down to sitting and listening to the fairytales, and all the time it’s about us. Therefore, the stories that they tell are not naïve, this is about our own lives.
B92: What is your expert legal understanding of the high-risk program definition? This is the first I have heard of it.
Danilović: I have also heard about this for the first time when police announced it. The police do all sorts of things, it’s possible that they appraise events in their own way, and that appraisal is more important than the one coming from us, from the public opinion, the citizens – it doesn’t really matter what citizens think. Why would the show constitute for a high-risk program, and the topic is…
Look, you must be naïve to believe Ahtisaari’s comment is fundamentally relevant to the Kosovo solution, but a space needs to be occupied, a negotiating team that includes so many members needs to have a theme, citizens need one as well, so that they could discuss Ahtisaari’s statement in cafes, what he may or may not have really said. Frankly, all that is nonsense, Ahtisaari’s statement doesn’t make an ounce of difference, his role is important and the negotiations are important, but we don’t discuss the negotiations.
B92: A Belgrade tabloid paper ran a story today entitled, “Women in the crosshairs”, with the photos of Sonja Biserko, Nataša Kandić and Biljana Kovačević Vučo. The article is dedicated to Siniša Vučinić’s statement, who goes by the title of the Serbian Party of Socialists president. The article claims that an influential foreign security service is preparing to assassinate these women in the context of the Kosovo talks.
Danilović: This is how Đinđić was assassinated. First there were these fairytales, and then our intelligence, members of our intelligence, elite forces, together with the Zemun Clan, were the ones to kill him. So, this is a very dangerous development, since this is not just any tabloid: this is the tabloid that the State security service uses to meddle in different things. It is the State security that places the false information, announcements, threats, etc., using the tabloids.
These three ladies have received threats before, this is not exactly the first time. A friend of mine, whose opinion I appreciate very much, said: “All this cannot end without an internal conflict”. And I’m afraid we are headed toward some serious internal confrontations, irrelevant of the fact one cannot discern the alternative to the ruling school of thought, which is the same as that of Milošević, it is different only in behavior and manners and the fact it is not involved in wars. This friend of mine says: “We will fight among ourselves and start killing each other”. I’m afraid we’re headed there.
B92: What do you base your opinion that the State security is behind all this on? Bearing in mind this is being published by one of the papers with the highest circulation? And how should ordinary citizens understand all this?
Danilović: Alright, people take to all this. This is State security, one of its services wanted to achieve precisely what it has done, to intimidate these three women, to intimidate an alternative worldview, to demonstrate how powerful and strong they are. And now this Vučinić, who managed to maneuver out of certain criminal charges brought against him, who is known to be engaged by this service, now he makes this statement on behalf of this mysterious party, the Socialist Party of Serbia I think. We have the Democratic Party of Serbia, but…
B92: The Serbian party of Socialists.
Danilović: I can’t even bring myself to say that.
B92: The program continues with, among others, the topic of Judge Marko Kljajević’s resignation and the influence of this act on the Đinđić assassination trial. Mr. Danilović, Judge Kljajević’s resignation caused so much speculation that we cannot tell fact from fiction. On the one hand are the comments that this is a result of the pressure over his brother’s situation, who has been in prison for the past five months, detained without an indictment brought against him.
On the other hand is the speculation I came across in an article preparing for this interview, that while the prosecution announces the end of the trial, Judge Kljajević is resigning. There is another thing, that seems to be forgotten, and that is that when the Law on state organs’ jurisdiction was passed in April, one article took effect, which says any of the panel of judges members can take over as the presiding judge. What is your insight?
Danilović: First of all, this resignation took me by surprise. There is no doubt Judge Kljajević, who has been conducting this process flawlessly, sometimes even splitting hairs and upsetting us a little with his perfectionism, has decided to resign at the end of the two very important trials. I have been using this expression not knowing what kind of resignation it is.
However, I managed to find out he is seeking to be relieved of his duties as a judge without addressing the public, without holding a press conference, without writing an explanation with the resignation. Why is he leaving? To be able to become a defense lawyer and take on his brother’s case, or is there a more important reason?
B92: You have heard of the possibility that he may take on his brother’s defense?
Danilović: No, that’s a logical conclusion, a lawyer must reason in this way. Why would someone resign as a judge, become a lawyer, while his brother’s in jail? We need to keep quiet on this, since the law obligates us to conduct the investigation without the participation of the general public.
I happen to be on the defense team of one of the defendants in the investigation into his brother’s case, and I must say those are naïve accusation, stretched thin, at least the ones I am acquainted with, I don’t know about other cases, I won’t comment on that. A part of the public saw the arrest of Goran Kljajević as a form of pressure on Marko Kljajević. The reasons for his resignation at the end of the trial are unclear. Special court spokesperson’s statement is clumsy and not very precise, but it does contain some truth in it.
B92: Which statement do you have in mind specifically?
Danilović: I am talking about the last statement saying that the end of the trial has come, the closing statement, that is truthful. All the evidence presentation from one side and the other has concluded, all that’s left is the testimony by the collaborating witness Dejan “Bugsy” Milenković, and the report from the Wiesbaden experts, who already replied via letter stating that they remain supporting the report that the forensic medicine and ballistics experts from Serbia gave.
B92: And what do you think?
Danilović: You know, every person has a threshold, a level of tolerance, and when this line is crossed, then he stops being tolerant and does something that he would not have done otherwise. I think that there was too much pressure on him. One of the protected witnesses was murdered during the trial, we even saw the statement by the police chief who said the court was responsible for this murder, that is nonsense, but nonsense is being released as official position.
Also, there is the pressure on him, his security team was revoked, his car sprayed, his mobile phone taken away, etc. The Government never stood up to protect him, I am talking about the executive branch, all it did was criticize him.
B92: When speaking of the pressures that occurred tied to this process, the two prosecutor’s were not elected and then one of them resigned, etc…
Danilović: One died, he was murdered.
B92: …one died, yes. So, that whole story, roses on the judges’ doorsteps, these things regarding the process…Who are those people who are applying the pressure?
Danilović: First of all, there are two groups. You have the Government, the Government never protects the judges, that is under A. Under B…
B92: Why won’t the Government protect the judges, in your opinion?
Danilović: Why? Well it is common knowledge that there are rumors of involvement, even advisors of the current prime minister and his good friends have been taken into custody, they met with Dući, with Spasojević, whom the police refers to as “Šiptar,” and they met with Legija, that is nothing new, this has been going on from the beginning and up until now.
So, there are those who are interested in seeing this process stalled and obstructed. Now, the resignation of Judge Marko Kljajević, unfortunately, plays into their hands, and that is sad. But, we live in Serbia, where the prime minister states those who don’t understand Guča, and I’m surprised he didn’t add Belanovica and Koštuniće, do not understand Serbia, and this is a prime minister who claims that he wants to strive towards Europe.
This is not the age of Milovan Glišić and vampires around Serbia, we are not a rural nation, there are people who are rural, thank God, and they should be helped in emancipating and developing, but we have cities, we have an urban class of some kind.
B92: Maybe he’s right.
Danilović: No, he is not right. He is right from the point-of-view of those people, but he is not right according to the historical interest of Serbia, my people and your people.
B92: When we talk about pressures on the judges and on all those participating in the process, do you, as the attorney of the Đinđić family, who is involved in the process, ever feel that pressures are ongoing during the course of the trial?
Danilović: Of course, not only in the courtroom but outside the courtroom as well, through the media, take Kurir for example. For instance, I never give statements to Kurir, I don’t give statements to Pres, you ask me why, Nacional, Evropljanin? I would never think of it. Whenever they publish something I said, they get that from the agencies, because I know that these papers are controlled, you call them…
B92: Maybe I wasn’t being precise enough. In the courtroom, while the process is ongoing, while the trial is active, while the witnesses are speaking, while they are being questioned, can you get a sense of something in the procedure that maybe, something that we regular people cannot sense…
Danilović: No, Marko Kljajević did not allow any pressures, he conducted the trial, how shall I put it, in a perfectionist manner, he strictly followed all rules of procedure, he did not want to violate any of them, he even allowed for all the defense’s objections during the interpretation of the Criminal Charges Procedural Law.
Therefore, this could not have affected him, so this is not the primary issue. It is one thing to be in the courtroom, and another is the public opinion, and there is a battle in the public opinion which is trying to obstruct the trial. And I must tell you that in my personal experience, the citizens are very impatient awaiting this verdict. The prosecution had full support from the public, except of course for the opposing interest groups.
B92: But in the last several months, I don’t know what your angle on this is, there have been several statements from the Government that the court is prolonging the process.
Danilović: Well they would want to see it end as soon as possible, they do not like the process in any way.
B92: When it was announced that Milenković would be the collaborating witness, and when people were speculating about what he may or may not reveal, there were rumors that he might even mention judges who were involved with the Zemun Clan, and representatives of various institutions. What do you expect from his testimony?
Danilović: To tell you the truth, I do not know what Milenković said, he spoke twice, not once. In any case, the court council had a very reserved attitude towards giving him the status of a protected witness. I see three types of testimony from him; one that has to do with this case, and that should not and probably will not differ that much from the testimony already given in the case by other protected witnesses.
Then there is a range of testimonies from him which will be tied to other cases that do not have anything to do with this one, and which pertain to the criminal activity of the Zemun Clan. And it is also possible, though I do not know, I do not even know about these two, but I am guessing and predicting that it is possible that he told the police about judges and prosecutors who have cooperated with the Clan, it is possible that he is keeping that somewhere to use for various purposes.
B92: The testimony will be public, that decision stands…
Danilović: Well, we do not know that.
B92: There were speculations…
Danilović: Yes, the media is like that…
B92: You do not know for sure?
Danilović: We won’t know until the trial begins.
B92: A year and two months ago, your office and the legal offices of Srđa Popović have put forward the proposal to have the indictment against Ulemek changed to include the organized rebellion of November 2001.
Danilović: Yes.
B92: Has anything happened with that in the meanwhile?
Danilović: No, nothing has, except unofficially. The representation of the public prosecution said that he cannot expand the indictment now and complicate the entire thing, because there are elements of this within the indictment itself, it mentions the rebellion, so it covers that criminal issue as well.
Now, of course, the defense and the media, as you call them the tabloids, UDBA and these people, they are trying to show this rebellion as an incident and a protest, not a rebellion. It is a known fact in every nation when state institutions are threatening the nation, this was about a special forces unit, and when they take their weapons with them and start explaining and demanding things, to have ministers replaced, that is a rebellion, that is not irrelevant and it was a rebellion. And in the terminology which is used in the court process, the witnesses speak of a rebellion the entire time.
B92: And it would reveal what, the beginning?
Danilović: Well, no, it would reveal the continuity. Đinđić wasn’t just killed, he was chased for three months and then killed, he was killed on the fifth attempt, and after the three and a half months of preparations that were ideological and set up the scene for his murder.
B92: This proposal is sitting in a desk drawer somewhere?
Danilović: Yes, in the prosecutor’s drawer.
B92: Realistically, how much can Judge Kljajević’s resignation or refusal to return prolong the process? How long will it take to name a new presiding judge? Does the trial have to start over?
Danilović: You know how this is perceived? Look, this is that change which you speak of from April of this year, which took effect immediately along with the change made for the protection of collaborating witnesses, and now other changes have been pushed back for implementation starting June 1, 2007.
And that should have immediately caught the attention of people and should have made them realize that Marko Kljajević was being replaced or that there was pressure on Marko Kljajević, because the possibility was crated for the case to be finished, because the Government does not like the case and they would like to see it conclude, that is why they are rushing. But, our expectations are realistic, and I am not talking about myself personally, I am talking about the public, and it is a normal expectation for the public to have this case completed firstly.
B92: How much time is needed for the appointment of a new presiding judge to take place?
Danilović: By the end of the year, just like Kosovo.
B92: Do you expect it will be finished by the end of the year?
Danilović: Well I expected this to be over a long time ago. Now Wiesbaden has gotten mixed up in it, because Wiesbaden involved themselves in the case, because the police had asked Germany for help, so they have been involved since then. Now, they have different rules, they have a written statement of findings and that is enough in Germany, but here, according to our criminal process laws, they must be defended in front of the court, so certain conditions have been set and this will take at least eight or nine months.
B92: Is Wiesbaden one of the reasons why the process slowed down in 2006? Because these official statistics said that in, say, 2004, there were 53 working days in the process and only 36 in 2005, and until May of this year only seven in 2006.
Danilović: Solely Wiesbaden and several witnesses that did not show, but that could have been handled… the police too are prolonging the process.
B92: Thank you for being our guest on Kažiprst.
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