(Im)potent state? (part three)

(Im)potent state? (part three) Vojislav Kostunica: Serbia, who does Kosovo belong to? What is Kosovo? Where is Kosovo? Velimir Ilic: They broke our country apart and they keep breaking it apart, so it’s no wonder that the Serbian youth breaks an occasional window out of protest. Having in mind what the ambassadors deserved, they ended up fine even. - Tomislav Nikolic: Let’s show them that when we get together, when we gather, when we express our anger and our wrath, we do it as Serbs. They better leave us alone, or we are going to show them how Serbs fight for Kosovo and Metohija. - Slobodan Samardzic: Look what was done to Serbia in context, and what these people are doing to the embassies – it is really nothing. - Andreja Mladenovic: I can only say that I feel responsible, but we have done everything in our power. - Velimir Ilic: If a window is broken at a meeting, and we say that is violence at we call the whole group hooligans, as some media do and so they tease the members of the meeting to break some other institutions. By kicking journalists, throwing shoes at the Parliament, waving a gun in front of the Parliament, splashing water in the face of the President of the Parliament, the politicians have promoted violence for years back as an acceptable and desirable behaviour model in Serbia. - Do you have a gun on you? - I do. - What do you have? - I have a gun. - Now, at this moment? - Yes. - People, do you believe this? - OK, fine, I believe you. Now, no one knows how to solve this problem which reached a peak by demolishing the city, beating up and killing those who are not likeable to certain groups, which came as a result of two-year violence from which everyone stood back. All this was possible in Serbia, the country in which for years back the judicial system does not punish those who spread religious, racial and national hatred, those who violently interrupt manifestations which they dislike, those threat in an open manner, patrol across Belgrade and who are ready to physically assault those who do not think the same as they do. Ultra right-winged groups were a marginal occurrence until 2000. Their messages and actions became visible only after Serbia stepped out of the wars, and full expansion reached in 2004 when the Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) had a majority rule in Serbia. When the clear attitude of the state towards the crime in the first years after October 5 was exposed and when a documentary was broadcasted on the state television about the suffering of the Muslims in Srebrenica in 2001, in such a way was the attitude of the state towards these groups exposed by holding a debate “The truth about Srebrenica” at the Faculty of Law in Belgrade in 2005, where these groups denied the crime and glorified the accused of committing the crime. According to the official records, according to the criminal and offensive complaints, there are about 4000 extremist fans and ultra right-wingers. This informal army gathered a real arsenal of torches, stones, guns in September 2009 just before the “Pride parade”. Representatives of these groups sent threats day after day, continuously to all supporters of the “Pride parade” but also to all those who they declared as traitors for years back. There are several right-winged and ultra right-winged organisations. The prosecution recently asked for the banning of “Obraz” and “SNP 1389”. Apart from these, there are neonacist organisations working in Serbia called “Blood and honour” and “National order”. They openly present their fascist attitudes and announce the list of Jews in order to point out the enemy. “Blood and honour” is an extremely closed organisation with a strict hierarchy structure with rigorous control and conspiracy upon hiring new members. The group is empowered by the extreme groups of Rad fans. They are organised and active when it comes to public meetings which are mostly organised by right-winged organisations and are joined by fans from all clubs. And having in mind the number and aggressiveness, no big meeting was held in Belgrade in the past years without their presence. On holding such meetings they have a mutual agreement that they should not attack each other. The fatherland movement “Obraz” was founded by Nebojsa Krstic, religion sociologist in 1992 and one of the programme documents of “Obraz” is called “The declaration to Serbian enemies”. The number of “Obraz” members is top secret. After the murder of the French citizen in Belgrade downtown, the republic prosecutor asked for banning certain fan subgroups, but also of right-winged organisations such as “1389” and “Obraz”. Mladen Obradovic, “Obraz” movement: If they want to make us even stronger, let them ban us. B92: You called to violence? Mladen Obradovic: Towards whom? B92: Towards homosexuals, let’s begin with that? Mladen Obradovic: I don’t know when, please? B92: Was the statement: “We are waiting for you” prior to the “Pride parade” yours? Mladen Obradovic: Yes, so? B92: Your outbursts in public said that you would physically deal with the participants of the parade. Mladen Obradovic: Give me such a statement. B92: Well, I told you, “We are waiting for you”! What does “We are waiting for you” mean? Mladen Obradovic: We are waiting for you. It means what it says B92: What does “We are waiting for you” mean? Mladen Obradovic: It means we are waiting for you. B92: I don’t understand, clarify? Mladen Obradovic: You will understand. Obviously everyone whom the message was directed to understood. B92: When the police find brass knuckles, 3 smoke boxes, 2 torches on the day of the arrest, and when they find in Zmaj-Jovina street a large quantity of rocks painted red, is that yours, was that ready to repeat the scenario from 2001? Mladen Obradovic: I don’t see how that has anything to do with what we are speaking here. We had a conversation up to now, you are asking me about the stands of “Obraz”, so, the stand of “Obraz” was as follows: such manifestation should not be organised in Belgrade, because... Or anywhere in Serbia, because it will cause huge resentment of the people which no one will be able to control. B92: Tell me, when you look back at that 2001, and at that “Pride parade” which was broken apart, what are your thoughts about it? Mladen Obradovic: I think it is good that such a freakish manifestation was not held in Belgrade and I am confident that Belgrade, just like Moscow, will stay pure in honour and reputation. B92: People were beaten up in the street, and you call that pure reputation? Mladen Obradovic: Pure reputation is not having the Sodom and Gomorrah manifestation, as mitropolitan Amfilohije said in a correct manner, pass on the streets of Belgrade, and you know, everybody knew very well what would happen if such a thing tried to be organised. You know... B92: That blood in the streets of Belgrade was keeping the reputation of Belgrade pure? Mladen Obradovic: You mean to say that, for example, the blood spilled at the battle of Kosovo on Kosovo polje, when the... B92: Come on, please, we are talking about a very specific thing here, I did not ask you about the battle of Kosovo at all. Mladen Obradovic: But it is important, because it is about defending our people, about defending pure spiritual and national identity, so, we are never fighting against something, we are fighting for something. We are fighting for the cross, for freedom. Our holy ancestors knew what today’s potentates don’t know or don’t want to know, and that means that the fight for the defense of the Serbian name and property is fought with words and acts. It is also fought with fasting... B92: Your act is violence in the streets? Mladen Obradovic: Let me finish, it is fought with fasting and praying, it is fought with the cross, it is fought with the plow and quill, but if there is no other way, it is fought with the sword. B92: You take stones, torches and poles and deal out your justice? Mladen Obradovic: That’s nothing like our justice, that is not our justice, that is the most normal reasoning of every Serbian child, every Serbian man, every Serbian mother. The first action made by “Obraz” is the interruption and beating up the participants of the “Pride parade” in 2001. They participated in the meeting on March 17, 2004 after which the Bajrakli mosk was burned down. About a hundred members of “Obraz” interrupted the opening of an exhibition by contemporary artists from Pristina in Belgrade on February 2008. Members of “Obraz” were carrying the life size picture of former commandant of the Special Operation Unit (JSO), Milorad Ulemek Legija who was sentenced for the assassination of the prime minister of Serbia, Zoran Djindjic. They participated in the meeting called “Kosovo is Serbia”, participated in breaking up the antifascist meeting in December 2008 as well as on support meetings for Radovan Karadzic in 2008 when the hooligans confronted the police. Mladen Obradovic, “Obraz” movement: Our relationship with the political parties here could hardly be described in superlatives. B92: And what is the role of Andrija Mladenovic in the founding of “Obraz”? Mladen Obradovic: Mr. Mladenovic participated in certain debates organised by “Obraz” in the earlier years, which was quite long ago. “Obraz” was still in the form of a magazine and Mr. Mladenovic was not the only one present there. So, there were many people there who cooperated in one way or another with the magazine “Obraz”, later on with the organisation... B92: Was one of them Vojislav Kostunica? Mladen Obradovic: Yes, Vojislav Kostunica did write an article which was published in the magazine “Obraz”, but that was some time ago and I don’t see anything controversial about it, but the fact is that in certain parties in Serbia which are patriotic, even only in public, there are people who are honourable, respectful, some of them as we said gathered courage and took the material and exhibited it into the Assembly of Serbia on the day the Statute was voted for, the antiserbian Statute of Vojvodina in the Assembly of Serbia. I will only mention Mrs. Aleksandra Jankovic, Mr. Zeljko Tomic, Filip Stojanovic. B92: This is New Serbia, Democratic Party of Serbia? Mladen Obradovic: Yes, and the Serbian radical party. B92: Fine. How do you stand with the Serbian Orthodox Church? Mladen Obradovic: The Serbian Orthodox Church has always been the main pillar of the Serbian nation, it has always been the main guardian of our national being and should stay that way. We are trying to be faithful disciples of the Serbian Orthodox Church. B92: Who in the Serbian church, who gives you support? Mladen Obradovic: We have support in all those people who believe, in deacons and archpriests who know that what “Obraz” does, does for the sake of this people. The “1389” movement was established in the beginning of October 2004. The basic principles of the movement are: patriotism, orthodox religion, unity, preservation of purity and richness of the Serbian language, Cyrillic script, family values, state sovereignty and territorial wholeness of Serbia. They participated in the meeting “Kosovo is Serbia” after which the American embassy was set on fire, participated in meetings of support to Radovan Karadzic, when the hooligans confronted the police. The members of the “1389” movement are authors of the actions: “Safe house for Ratko Mladic”, “The network of concealers is spreading”, “Ratko Mladic Boulevard” and the action of writing graffiti “European Union – no, thank you!” The ban of this movement was requested by the republic prosecution. Misa Vacic, “SNP 1389”: This is very ridiculous and absurd for putting us and “Obraz” in the same context repeatedly, you will have to ask the prosecution that. B92: And you don’t think that you and “Obraz” are the same? Misa Vacic: We don’t think, we know. B92: What makes you different? Misa Vacic: The way of work, ideological guides, we don’t think of ourselves as a right-winged organisation, nor do we divide organisation in Serbia in right-winged and left-winged, but we divide them into Serbian and antiserbian... Proserbian and antiserbian. B92: Patriots and traitors? Misa Vacic: Patriots and traitors if you will, but they do not always have to be patriotic and traitorous, you can have national and civil. B92: But wait, who decides what patriotism in Serbia is? Misa Vacic: Simple, the society decides based on acts, acts tell us if someone is doing a patriotic thing or traitorous to be precise. B92: Yes, but your point of view is that everyone who does not think like that should suffer the consequences? Misa Vacic: No, this isn’t true. You are wrong, on the contrary, we don’t see our exclusiveness and extremism in any way. B92: Wait, how is this not exclusiveness if you are, here you personally are, you... Misa Vacic: Yes? B92: Stated prior to the “Pride parade” and I quote: “If we find out about this meeting of queers even on the very day of the event, thousands of patriots will rush down to break apart this meeting of immoral, fornication and Satanism.” Misa Vacic: Yes, this is a clear statement. I am glad it didn’t happen because no one needs bloody Belgrade streets, because this is something a small child in Serbia knows, that gay parades won’t and can’t happen in Serbia. B92: So you practically announced blood in the streets here? Misa Vacic: No, we are just making clear statements and freely discussing it in order to prevent it from happening from precautions. B92: Wait, but is this a call for lynch? Misa Vacic: This is not a call for lynch, this is the real state of affairs in the country. B92: What do you mean real state, so this means that a couple of hundred people from various right-winged organisation and fan groups simply gets to decide who can and who can’t exhibit their opinion, attitude or... Misa Vacic: First of all, there are not just a couple of hundred of us, and secondly, these are not fan group organisations but an opinion of the citizens of Serbia, the Serbian people. B92: Those are right-winged organisations and fan groups mostly. Misa Vacic: Every public research regarding the issue of gaying and promoting it. B92: You know what I think, I think that you won’t be able to use the word “gaying” because it is not civilised. Misa Vacic: First of all, there are not just a couple of hundred of us, and secondly, these are not fan group organisations but an opinion of the citizens of Serbia, the Serbian people. B92: Those are right-winged organisations and fan groups mostly. Misa Vacic: Every public research regarding the issue of gaying and promoting it. B92: You know what I think, I think that you won’t be able to use the word “gaying” because it is not civilised. Misa Vacic: It is not civilised? B92: Yes. Misa Vacic, “SNP 13879”: The very word “break apart” does not imply the use of force, and to break apart in the marketing way, media... B92: But wait, if you were an organisation that hasn’t participated in any of the previous incidents in the last years, you would have had... Misa Vacic: We did not participate. B92: ...complete rights to say that. Misa Vacic: We did not participate in any of the... B92: But we all know pretty well... Misa Vacic: Go on, say it. B92: ...what does it mean when “1389”, the right-winged organisation and fan groups announce... Misa Vacic: We are a patriotic organisation. B92: Patriotic, I am sorry. Misa Vacic: I don’t know what your basis for claiming such things are... B92: I don’t know on what you base the opinion that you are patriots, since patriots do not demolish their city? Misa Vacic: We never demolished our city. B92: You participated in the incidents. Misa Vacic: We did not participate in the incidents, there is no evidence to prove that we have participated in the incidents. You can make an analogy of the period. B92: No, I’m just wondering, so if you are opposed to something... Misa Vacic: Yes, we are. B92: Who gives you the right to threat those people and try to stop... Misa Vacic: We threatened no one. B92: You are violating the Constitution. Misa Vacic: We are not violating the Constitution. B92: You are calling for discrimination which is forbidden... Misa Vacic: We are not calling for discrimination. B92: Yes, you are. Misa Vacic: No, we are not. B92: And by the way, what do you have against that meeting? Misa Vacic: The thing we disagree about... B92: In what way is that threatening you personally? Misa Vacic: ...in the way that we are simply against the promotion of the gay lobby. B92: You are opposed to the accession of Serbia into the European Union? Misa Vacic: Yes, as something normal, socially acceptable. B92: Well then your stand is highly debatable. Misa Vacic: Why? B92: Well tell me, how old are you? Misa Vacic: 24. B92: And why are you against the European Union? Misa Vacic: Many things, I am familiarised with the European Union, I finished college there, I lived there for a period of time and travelled through almost every country except the East-European ones that joined recently, so I know the social values and the civil liberties there. B92: Why did you live there at all in the first place? Misa Vacic: I lived there because I was forced to, my father was as a diplomat there, in a way. I certainly didn’t go to live there because I liked it. The accession of Serbia into the European Union would degrade Serbia. B92: Well it’s certainly not you who should decide upon that? Misa Vacic: Who then? B92: What makes you think you have the right to decide about anything on behalf of the citizens of this country? Misa Vacic: Unfortunately, we do not yet decide, but we try to... B92: You put yourself in such a position and you can do that because – what? You have a couple of hundred or thousand different people behind you who are ready even to beat up someone because they think differently. Misa Vacic: Why do you keep emphasizing violence when I say that non-violence is the key to our... B92: Because all of your activities so far speak so. Misa Vacic: Well, you are making things up. B92: Are you cooperating with the Serbian radical party? Misa Vacic: No. B92: Aleksandar Vucic? Misa Vacic: No. B92: You are not cooperating with the radicals? Misa Vacic: We are not cooperating with any of the political parties. B92: You changed addresses. Your organisation used the rooms of the Serbian advance party in John Kennedy Street in Novi Beograd, is that true or not? Misa Vacic: We changed addresses. B92: Have you used the rooms of the Serbian advance party in John Kennedy Street? Misa Vacic: Used for what? B92: For doing your duties, how can I tell you what for, I mean you used them as your office? Misa Vacic: No. We have our own offices which are distinctly marked to be in the... B92: All right, and you have no kind of cooperation with any of the political parties, none? Misa Vacic, “SNP 13879”: It happens occasionally that certain political parties, national parties of the opposition I guess, for the sake of their political points supported us and tried to protect us in times of some big hunt, as in the case of “Ratko Mladic Boulevard” from the media lynch and public prosecution. B92: And what about the Serbian Orthodox Church? Misa Vacic: Our members are all members of the Serbian Orthodox Church, we are honoured when we are seeking blessings for some greater projects, such as the “Vidovdan march” or humanitarian actions, redemption voyages we organise where we get blessings. B92: Since you said that you are opposed to any kind of violence, that you don’t call for lynch, although there are some of your statements... Misa Vacic: We condemn violence and hatred, fascism and racism. B92: And you yourselves do not hate and promote fascism? Misa Vacic: No. B92: Well, you have on your Facebook profile an uploaded photo of the B92 building burning. This is also a kind of a love message? Misa Vacic: I don’t think we have that, I know that photo is very popular. B92: And that’s why you uploaded it? Misa Vacic: We even thought of making graffiti across the street from your building of that very same photo. B92: The burning building? Does that mean that B92 should be burnt? Misa Vacic: This is artistic liberty, because the hatred and injustice that this house is doing by false reports is much bigger, when you are reporting about us, there are always scenes of violence. The association “Ours” is one of the youngest associations of the extreme right-wing. Formed in January 2006 the public first heard about them when they interrupted the debate of the “Pescanik” on Radio B92 in Arandjelovac in November 2007. Dragan Jovanovic, a member of the New Serbia party of Velimir Ilic, and the president of the Topola municipality was the leader of the group. Ivan Ivanovic, association “Ours”: Well I wouldn’t call it furiously, it was actually a media manipulation designed by your house because it had plenty more events that preceded our entering the show “Pescanik” and it would lat for a good part of the show if we wanted to talk about it. We were launched, in a way, into some media space and after that show, our organisation took a big place among the national organisations in Serbia. B92: You were doing it for the marketing? Ivan Ivanovic: Not for the marketing, rather for the reason that we consider the show “Pescanik” antiserbian, specifically because of the people that write... B92: What you consider is your own thing, but who gives you the right to deny someone’s right to speech? Ivan Ivanovic: No, we denied no one. B92: But now I am interested in, I am asking you this about Arandjelovac, because there was also... So, the president of the municipality of Topola gave you support... Ivan Ivanovic: You know what, be began that campaign against the show “Pescanik”... B92: Let me just finish the question, who is the vice president of New Serbia, by Velimir Ilic... Ivan Ivanovic: Yes, that’s Dragan Jovanovic. B92: ...there were also radicals there. So, are these the parties that support you and who you support? Ivan Ivanovic: No, I would like to clarify now, we are a patriotic organisation which has its statute and its goals. About this case in specific, people came and supported us because they recognized that we needed support because of the horrible media attack upon us. Your TV house announced that it had read I don’t know what kind of announcements from our website, which was not set up yet. So our website was being constructed and you talked about reading some kind of, I don’t which announcements that we would do I don’t know what. B92: come on, we will talk about us later, I called you because of you. Ivan Ivanovic: Well I am speaking specifically. B92: So I called you, now answer my question, does your organisation have the support of New Serbia, Serbian radical party? Ivan Ivanovic: Let me tell you, we have our statute and we know what we are doing. Regarding specific actions, if some political party like it, they can support us, we won’t say no, but we don’t depend on any political party... B92: And which party supports you? Ivan Ivanovic: Regarding that case specifically, we were supported by New Serbia and the Serbian radical party, people from the movement of Ravna gora showed up as well. So no one stands behind us, no political party. B92: What motivated you to establish the organisation anyway in 2006? Ivan Ivanovic, association “Ours”: Well I wouldn’t call it furiously, it was actually a media manipulation designed by your house because it had plenty more events that preceded our entering the show “Pescanik” and it would lat for a good part of the show if we wanted to talk about it. We were launched, in a way, into some media space and after that show, our organisation took a big place among the national organisations in Serbia. B92: You were doing it for the marketing? Ivan Ivanovic: Not for the marketing, rather for the reason that we consider the show “Pescanik” antiserbian, specifically because of the people that write... B92: What you consider is your own thing, but who gives you the right to deny someone’s right to speech? Ivan Ivanovic: No, we denied no one. B92: But now I am interested in, I am asking you this about Arandjelovac, because there was also... So, the president of the municipality of Topola gave you support... Ivan Ivanovic: You know what, be began that campaign against the show “Pescanik”... B92: Let me just finish the question, who is the vice president of New Serbia, by Velimir Ilic... Ivan Ivanovic: Yes, that’s Dragan Jovanovic. B92: ...there were also radicals there. So, are these the parties that support you and who you support? Ivan Ivanovic: No, I would like to clarify now, we are a patriotic organisation which has its statute and its goals. About this case in specific, people came and supported us because they recognized that we needed support because of the horrible media attack upon us. Your TV house announced that it had read I don’t know what kind of announcements from our website, which was not set up yet. So our website was being constructed and you talked about reading some kind of, I don’t which announcements that we would do I don’t know what. B92: come on, we will talk about us later, I called you because of you. Ivan Ivanovic: Well I am speaking specifically. B92: So I called you, now answer my question, does your organisation have the support of New Serbia, Serbian radical party? Ivan Ivanovic: Let me tell you, we have our statute and we know what we are doing. Regarding specific actions, if some political party like it, they can support us, we won’t say no, but we don’t depend on any political party... B92: And which party supports you? Ivan Ivanovic: Regarding that case specifically, we were supported by New Serbia and the Serbian radical party, people from the movement of Ravna gora showed up as well. So no one stands behind us, no political party. B92: What motivated you to establish the organisation anyway in 2006? Ivan Ivanovic: We established the organisation because we saw that the political parties are not able to protect our national interests and we, as young people, are gathered around our organisation which is called ”Ours”. An organisation with the same name exists in Russia and we tried to make something that would gather a large number of young people. That was practically our goal and we are successful in achieving it. B92: You said that when the “Pride parade” was cancelled that “The association “Ours” notifies the public that the cancellation of the queer people parade is a great victory of the Serbian patriotic organisations and all normal Serbs and that this is the beginning of a normal Serbia.” Ivan Ivanovic, association “Ours”: Well of course, it was a big victory of the patriotic organisations because queer people couldn’t have been parading Belgrade B92: Do you understand that you are now violating the Constitution? Ivan Ivanovic: I am violating the Constitution? B92: Yes. Ivan Ivanovic: I am violating the Constitution? Well I think that... B92: By saying such things you are violating the Constitution. Ivan Ivanovic: So there is no section in the Constitution that relates to homosexual... B92: There is a section about discrimination. Ivan Ivanovic: There is about discrimination, but not about homosexuals, and the Law on discrimination was passed last year. The Constitution is not violated; people that pass such laws violate the Constitution. Here, we can open the Constitution, so no section applies to homosexuals. The Constitution of the Republic of Serbia: “The Constitution of the Republic of Serbia specially guarantees the preservation of human dignity and achieving complete liberty and equality of every individual in the justice, open and democratic society founded on the principles of the rule of law, limiting them only in cases of endangering the aforementioned guaranteed human rights. The Constitution specifically predicts the ban on discrimination. The ban on discrimination, direct or indirect on any basis”. B92: Who are you to decide who is a patriot in Serbia, who can and who can’t do things? Ivan Ivanovic: We don’t decide, we determine... B92: No, I’m asking you... Who are you to decide about everyone else? Ivan Ivanovic: We are the organisation “Ours” and you see that we have the right... The gay parade was not held. B92: Who gave you the right to decide that you are a greater patriot than all others? Ivan Ivanovic: We gave ourselves the right because I am a Christian Serb and I think that this Serbia should be the land of Orthodox Serbs and of course, all citizens who live here regardless of their religion. B92: And those who aren’t should be killed and lynched according to your rules? Ivan Ivanovic: No, tell me again, where did we ask for someone to be killed? B92: Did you participate in 2001? Ivan Ivanovic: Of course. B92: And who beat up all those people there? Ivan Ivanovic: Who beat up the people? B92: Yes. Ivan Ivanovic: There were people who disagreed on the issue and who reacted fiercely. The protest they were supposed to be holding in 2001 should have ended up in front of the Serbian patriarchy and should have been a protest against the Serbian patriarch. So you can’t go into something that is the holiest of all for the Serbian people and expect the treated kindly and be loved. B92: Fine, why are you a greater patriot than all others? Ivan Ivanovic: I am not a greater patriot, I behave like any normal person that loves. B92: But right now, in this conversation you stated several times that you were a patriot? Ivan Ivanovic: I say patriot, but... B92: What is a patriot? Ivan Ivanovic: The patriot should be... A patriot is a normal person who loves their friends, loves their parents, loves their neighbours, loves their country, loves their church. Everybody else fighting against their church... There is a nice expression for them, they are antichauvinists. They hate themselves. B92: So, you said that you were against drugs, against crime, against a lot of things, but at the same time you are a catechist, but that doesn’t prevent you from organising the promotion of Kristijan Golubovic, who was in court convicted as a criminal. Ivan Ivanovic: Yes. Well this is a very interesting question and I had expected you to ask me this. Well, your television was the first to make this propaganda film “I’ll see you in the obituary” which, well I can say so, pulled into crime thousands of young people. Our organisation... B92: I really apologise, but this is turning out really ridiculous. You don’t have answers to any of the questions. Ivan Ivanovic: Wait until I answer the question. B92: Well you didn’t answer it. Ivan Ivanovic: Well Kristijan Golubovic was... When you keep interrupting me... We presented him in a completely new way in which he calls out people to give up crime and calls people to get involved in a healthy life, in sports and speaks about, so the whole matter of the debate was: who wants to deal with some kind of, let’s say, fiercely life, let them get involved in boxing, karate, “Ultimate fight”. This was one of the most seen debates in Arandjelovac in the last 5 years and precisely about... Do you think that I would call someone to promote crime and who would talk about drugs? B92: He doesn’t have to promote, but we all know who Kristijan Golubovic is, right? Ivan Ivanovic: Well of course, you too broadcast “I’ll see you in the obituary” with 20 criminals. B92: That really is no kind of argument... For the film filmed at that time... Ivan Ivanovic: Just explain to me... How do young people... Can you explain... B92: In what school do you work in? Ivan Ivanovic: In a primary school. In several primary schools. Can you explain to me how a young man... B92: Wait, and you as a catechist... Ivan Ivanovic: Yes. B92: You have to have the support of the Serbian Orthodox Church? Ivan Ivanovic: I don’t have to have the support of the Serbian Orthodox Church. I finished school and I regularly do my job in the school. This is something I do in my free time and the Church has no influence on who will join which political party. That would be ridiculous. That would be abolishing freedom of every catechist, every priest. B92: Does the Serbian Orthodox Church support your stands as a catechist who displays it publicly? Ivan Ivanovic: No, we never had conversation about the Serbian Orthodox Church supporting my stands at all. It would be ridiculous, who am I to be supported by the Serbian Orthodox Church? B92: A catechist. Ivan Ivanovic: Well that’s irrelevant... Catechist? I am just one in the hierarchy who, there exist thousands of catechists, and I say, I do my job as a catechist. B92: You as a catechist. Ivan Ivanovic: Yes. B92: You are calling for violence? Ivan Ivanovic: I never call for violence and I repeat, show me where I call for violence and name me the specific statement where I call for violence. Name the specific sentence where I called for violence. B92: Well, I really didn’t want to expose this since it is B92 but since... Let me tell you, you claim you haven’t said it, but your message, which stands on your website: “The end is near, servants of terror. The Church and Serbia are your horror”? Ivan Ivanovic: Well yes. B92: how is the end near for TV B92? Ivan Ivanovic: I just answered you – political end, I tell you we are getting prepared for a serious... B92: This doesn’t say political end. Ivan Ivanovic: Well it is one slogan, can you state in one political slogan your entire stand? B92: And you think it befits a catechist to use such language? Ivan Ivanovic: Of course it befits me, because I say what is true. B92: And children should learn from you? Ivan Ivanovic: Of course a child should learn. B92: Catechism? Ivan Ivanovic: Of course. B92: Thank you. As a rule, extremist right-wingers and extremist fan participate together in all events that end with incidents Mladen Obradovic “Obraz” movement: If you think about the fans who spilled their blood by defending our people from Knin, all the way to Prizren... B92: I refer to those fans who will set a mosk on fire, beat up homosexuals, throw torches at the participants of an antifascist meeting, yes, those are the fans I refer to Mladen Obradovic: The right think would be to talk about the fans who spilled their blood for the defence of the Serbian people from Knin to Prizren and about the fans that stood up to taking away Kosovo and Metohija, those fans who stood up to the arrest of Radovan Karadzic. - (Fans): Let all DOS motherfuckers know, if they arrest the general, Grobars will take guns into their hands and we will kill all of you one day. Mladen Obradovic, “Obraz” movement: Riots in the streets happen because of our authority. If the Serbian, sorry, this isn’t Serbian, this is antiserbian authority. So, if the antiserbian potentates had not delivered a Serbian knight such as Radovan Karadzic, scenes like those would not have happened. What seems to be the problem if the same meeting is attended by fans of Red star, Partizan, Rad, members of the “Obraz” movement and other organisations? Ivan Ivanovic, association “Ours”: Right-winged organisations and fans? B92: Yes. What is it that connects you and the fan groups? Ivan Ivanovic: Let’s make one thing clear, every time a meeting is organised, many fan groups in Serbia are right-winged and this has been going on since the 90s and these are organisations I say, which are right-winged, which also have their own values such as love towards Serbia, love towards the Serbian Orthodox Church. B92: And your organisation was close to Red Star fans? Ivan Ivanovic: No, we are the closest to the Family of Serbian fans which gathers all Serbian fans from all patriotic clubs and all fan groups. The Family of Serbian fans gathers all fan groups, literally said. B92: Wait, your organisation “Ours” closely cooperates with the Russian organisation “Ours”? Ivan Ivanovic: Well, you can’t say closely, but we do cooperate with the Russian organisation “Ours”. B92: And why did you have a meeting in 2008 in the rooms of the FC Red Star? Ivan Ivanovic: Because the fans of FC Red Star travelled to Moscow and they cooperate with Spartak Moscow. There were also members of the “Ours” organisation who talked about their cooperation and then we just met to discuss that. So that was no meeting, on an I don’t know what kind of level, but practically a small conversation in which we exchanged experiences regarding the functioning of each organisation... B92: Since the Spartak fan group functions within the Russian organisation “Ours”... Ivan Ivanovic: It does not function within, it’s the members who.. B92: Some are members, yes. Ivan Ivanovic: The members are people who are from “Ours” and who go to Spartak matches and that’s how they met. It is not a connection – fans that have who know what kind of cooperation. It is ridiculous. Fans usually respond to, i.e. they attended those big meetings we organised such as the protest in front of the Slovenian embassy, Red Star fans came then, Partizan fans, Rad fans. The proof that extremist fans and extremist right-wingers are always in the front lines when it comes to demolition and burning of cities is backed up by the fact that one of Partizan fans, Zoran Vujovic, got killed in the American embassy when the hooligans set it on fire upon entering the embassy. Mladen Obradovic, “Obraz” movement: You can’t blame Serbian youth for trying to deal with the stealing of Kosovo and Metohija in ways they knew of. You know, Njegos was right to put it: “To do evil, when defending from evil, there is no evil done there”. You can’t blame a people, when they are defending, when they are forced to... B92: To defend by burning down its own city? Obradovic: Damn it, what city, what city? American embassy? What kind of a city is that? That’s a city within a city, the American embassy. B92: It’s a city within a city... Obradovic: It’s a fortress B92: And we are all paying for what you’ve done. Obradovic: Ask around... Mrs., it’s not about the burning, you know. The point is that whatever happened there on that day, and you are probably aiming at the events which occurred after the meeting “Kosovo is Serbia”, everything that happened on that day was the expression of people’s resistance, despair of this people who don’t know what to do. A group of young people mostly went after the “Kosovo is Serbia” meeting to demolish everything that stood in their way. According to unofficial information, some demonstrators had pieces of paper in them on which was the map to the embassy. Such maps were intended for those extremist fans and right-wingers coming from Serbia. It is just another marker of how group and subgroup leaders seldom participate in incidents directly, but organize groups of extremist fans instead. Young people are often members of such groups who are ready to do anything to prove themselves to the leader for the sake of advancing on the hierarchy ladder in the group. Zoran Vujovic who was killed in the American embassy from suffocation from the fire set by the hooligans was one of the Partizan fans. After that, Grobars devoted songs to Vujovic, carried a banner with his photo, and the same photo is on the website of the opponent fan group “Delije North”. Fans of the opponent team also pay tribute in this way to Vujovic who, as they say, “gave his life for defending Kosovo”. Responsibility for what happened in February 2008 goes to representatives of authorities and institutions in charge at the time. Vojislav Kostunica was the prime minister at the time. The settlement about that big and peaceful protest was achieved at the meeting of parliamentary parties of the Democratic Party and Serbian radical party. “We have to defend Serbia and Kosovo in the best possible way”, said Kostunica at the time. However, at the day of the meeting, the president of the Democratic Party and president of Serbia Boris Tadic was not in the country, but away visiting Romania. He came back when everything was over and gave a statement for the press at 8 o’clock at night when he called for settling the situation. G17 announced that they wouldn’t be present at the meeting, so representatives of the Democratic Party of Serbia, Serbian radical party (which was unique at the time) and the Church were present at the stage. Although the responsibility of the institutions in charge was never determined, based on information available we can determine that the burning of the embassy was not prevented, i.e. the police were not instructed prior to the burning to react, but who brought the decision not to react stays unclear to this day. Just a few days after the meeting organised by the state, the group of hooligans and extremists caused riots in the city by smashing windows on embassies on the day Kosovo declared independence. Minister in the Government of Serbia Velimir Ilic at the time, but also other members of the Government publicly justified such acts of hooligans. Velimir Ilic: Foreigners broke apart our country, and we broke a couple of windows on embassies, it is normal and they should expect that and learn democracy... Breaking windows is democracy too. Such statements were actually a cause to what would happen just a few days later. Even the session of the Government was held where the Government of Serbia discussed about the riots of the hooligans. The transcript from the session was published by “Blic”. "Velimir Ilic (NS): they caused us more damage then those broken windows. The people from B92 and other media should be careful when talking about those young people. Snezana Samardzic-Markovic (G17): You are the last who should teach somebody manners. We all know what you were saying. Velimir Ilic: Madam, you are 2 months present in sports and I have been for 20 years. Take care, sportsmen will come to you. Dragan Sutanovac (DS): What sportsmen, what are you talking about? I will stand in front of hose wimps if I have to. Second of all, why was the police given instructions to allow the hooligans to wreak havoc and on the other hand to protect law and order? Policemen will only get killed that way Velimir Ilic: You can’t call them hooligans just because they smashed some windows and hurt a couple of policemen. Dragan Sutanovac: 53 to be exact. Vojislav Kostunica: Those people, hooligans if you will, were only reacting to violation of international rights. Dragan Sutanovac: Please, if someone hadn’t organised them, they wouldn’t have know what do to. Violation of international rights, yeah right?!” Velimir Ilic, Andreja Mladenovic and Vojislav Kostunica refused to talk for “Insider”. Snezana Samardzic-Markovic, minister of youth and sports: That was a dramatic session of the Government and I was the one to tell the president of the Government that we are not obliged to listen in the Government, to the president of the Government at the time... B92: Vojislav Kostunica? Snezana Samardzic-Markovic: That we are not obliged to listen to those attacks and I ask the president to cease the attacks of the fellow minister. Mr. Ilic attacked me very much. One day prior to the big demonstrations, a meeting of all services of the ministry of internal affairs and the security-informative agency (BIA), where it was agreed to secure all diplomatic embassies and to secure property, according to information “Insider” came by. From the ministry of internal affairs at the time all diplomats were assured that they would be under control and that Serbia will comply with all international obligations and secure all foreign embassies. The hooligans, i.e. Partizan fans first threw stones at the Turkish embassy although BIA operatives were in the field following what had been going on. However, the police in the field don’t get orders to cease the demolition of the city. Robbing stores started across the Croatian embassy, the hooligans move on to the American embassy. The police, however, receive the command, quote: “Stay in starting positions”. Some incidents first occur in front of the American embassy when the guard house was set on fire. While all this lasted there are no commands for the police to react. All this goes on for 45 minutes. Only when the hooligans entered the embassy and set it on fire did the members of the special anti-terrorist unit (SAJ), who are guarding the embassy by the way, entered and tried to pull out the marines out of the building due to the lack of authorities from the ministry of internal affairs, in cooperation with the director of the police. Only after that did the order to react come. According to the research, conducted by “Insider”, the police forces which were positioned along the two parallel streets in the vicinity of the American Embassy, Vojvode Milenka and Milosa Pocerca, as well as in Sarajeveska street, have been ordered to retreat half an hour before the attack at the Embassy took place. It remains yet to be seen who was in charge of the police forces that day, and who was the person that issued the afore mentioned order. Dragan Jocic, Minister at the time, was hospitalized due to a car accident. And the duty of the vice/deputy Minister was performed by Mirjana Orasanin. According to the eye witnesses, command over the police was taken over by Aleksandar Nikitovic, at the time heading the cabinet of the Primeminister Vojislav Kostunica. Detailed information regarding the chain of command and the issuing of orders is still kept a secret. What is shocking is the fact that there was no official investigation, nor were the authorities held responsible for what has happened – most of all MUP and BIA, which were directed by Rade Bulatovic. Vladimir Bozovic, MUP general supervisor, April 2004-Januarz 2007: I am proud of having been, as you have already mentioned, at the forefront. However I find it utterly defeating and disappointing that the our state couldn’t, or better to say refused to protect state institutions and foreign Embassies, and I consider this to be one of the greatest failures of judgment of the government, of the time. B92: What you are implying is that the criminal act, involving setting the American Embassy on fire, was actually a politically governed decision? Vladimir Bozovic: Well, in a way it was. Either it was due to the inability to react in the manner most proper i.e. to provide protection for that and all the other Embassies in Belgrade. As you already pointed out, I was among at the front, together with the people who were standing in the line with archbishop Amfilohije. To the right, stood Mr. Nikolic and Todorovic, I think, at that moment both belonging to the Radical political party, and to the left there stood Primeminister Kostunica and the head of his cabinet Nikitovic. At that particular moment I happened to be contacted by certain people from the police, some „other“ people. I also caught a glimpse of Nikitovic while he was talking to somebodz as well. Then, upon bringing that conversation to an end, he approached the archbishop Amfilohije and informed him that the police is unable to defend the Embassies, which also included the American Embassy. The reason stated was that any action would jeopardise the lives of people, and that the best thing to do was to withdraw the poliice forces and leave everything be. B92: Is that what Nikitovic said? Vladimir Bozovic: To the archbishop…I saw it more as an act of seeking his opinion, or judgement. To what the archbishop, of course, gave his consent pointing out that each life and the sacredness of life are of utmost importance, for him, for me and for every human being, accordingly. Upon cross referencing the information received previously, I pointed out to the archbishop that the police ought to protect all the Embassies, including the American. For, otherwise, what was initially a glorious assemblage of people could turn into something quite the opposite, and if he could share this opinion, which U think he did share with Mr. Nikitovic, while we were moving along in a column. B92: Having the head of the cabinet, Mr. Nikitovic, in mind…According to what you have just said, the impression is that he was the one who was practically in charge of the police forces, given the fact that he was constantly on the line, and given the fact that he was the one who addressed Amfilohije? Vladimir Bozovic, MUP general supervisor, April 2004-Januarz 2007: That is of course to yet to be investigated and confirmed. I’m talking here about what I have personally seen and heard, and it is my impression that is the way it happened and that he is the one who should be taken responsible, together with the the commander in chief of BIA – Mr. Bulatovic. The man who, as a head of the secret police, should have had all the operative knowledge and data, regarding what was to happen. But the most important thing is to investigate on who was exactly in command of the police forces on the day the afore mentioned assemblage took place. And on the day when that gruesome image of setting the American Embassy on fire, of a Serbian citizen who lost his life in that same Embassy and of the unconceivable political consequences that act is to have, left Belgrade and off to the world it went. United in the hatred they share, toward everything that is in certain way “different”, the keenest of supporters/fans and rightists have in the last couple of years become a significant and influential part of Serbia’s political scene. Not only were they not punished for the initiation of many violent outbursts followed by the initiation of racial, religious and national hatred, by the government and the authorities but as of 2004 they were also, to a great extent, supported by the same government. Concurrently with the lack of criminal charges, the general public was constantly fed with fabrications and various concepts rooted in intolerance, negating the existence of organised crime and war misdeeds by glorifying the suspects and convicted felons. Ever since the incidents which took place during the first “Gay Pride” parade in 2001, continuing with the heinous acts of setting fire to Bajrakli mosque and to the American Embassy, followed by the demolition of Slovenian and Croatian Embassies, up to the cancellation of the last afore mention parade, the rightists and the supporters/fans have been acting together. And it is exactly such actions that kept pulling Serbia further away from the EU, as a country in which serious violation of human rights occurred all too often, and was frequently followed by the loss of innocent lives. The Serbia in question, which sheltered the most extreme of rightists and hooligans who unfortunately became influential social groups, reached the crest of the wave when the “Gay Pride” parade had been canceled for the second time. It is this Serbia that murdered Brisse Taton, in the centre of Belgrade. While the organizations supporting the rightist ideology publicly threatened the participants of the “Gay Pride” parade and declare the following: “Just show yourselves if you dare. We’re waiting,” Amfilohije Radovic had sent a written statement to the media, condemning the entire parade with reference to Sodom and Gomorrah. “Man was endowed with love so he could give birth, for every birth is but a birth for all times, and not the birth for death and emptiness. And the tree that barren is, can’t be nothing else except firewood. How true is love, that barren is? And it is exactly such love that is consumed by the gay population. The one which cannot and is unable to inherit the beauties of the heavenly kingdom, for it is barren and sterile. Its Eros turns into Tanatos, leading but only to death and suicide, and differs not from death itself.’ B92: And so it happens that Partizan’s football supporters murder the French citizen in the centre of Belgrade, after being fueled in exactly the same manner by public statements identical to those expressed prior to “Gay Pride” parade. Do you, personally, feel partly responsible for that? Mladen Obradovic: Could you please confirm if we are to hear in public the answers to the following questions: how is it possible that all the media argue that the poor guy was allegedly wearing a T-shirt with the inscription “Serbia”, that he had no personal marks and similar nonsense, however when you look at the video footage more closely it can be clearly seen that he was actually carrying the “colours” of his football club supporter group? B92: So, if I am not mistaken, that is a reason enough for him to be beaten do death? Mladen Obradovic: Unbeliveable! Is the public ever going to…Allow me, is this same public ever going to have an opportunity get the answers to, let’s say, following questions: is it true that the person in question had, that same day, homosexual outbursts in the streets of Belgrade? Is it true that, together with others from his group, this person provoked Partizan’s supporters and other people of Serbian origin, who happened to find themselves at the exact same location? Are we ever to get answers to such questions, I ask you? B92: But the man was murdered in cold blood… Mladen Obradovic: then you tell me… B92: A man has been murdered and you won’t even… Mladen Obradovic: I am truly sorry that such shocking event took place, but don’t you go on and impose some warped and atrocious opinions on me…Something which wasn’t even uttered on my behalf. I do regret about what had happened, for this is indeed regret worthy. But we somehow always get bogged down with discussing only the consequences that we never seem to heal the sores. One thing’s for sure, we’re not talking here about the fans who are cheering their favorite team, nor are we talking about the so called patriots who are, allegedly a part of the right wing oriented organizations. We are talking about “bullies” in the literal sense - the ones who, without any shame whatsoever, call themselves fans. And of extremists/fanatics who refer to themselves as patriots. Of all the groups and subgroups comprised of fans and under the guise of football teams – Red Star, Partizan and Rad, whose leaders are suspected to have committed more than 250 criminal offences, and are responsible for numerous public threats and insults – for weeks now the loudest among them is the Partizan’s group of fans called “Alcatraz”. The leaders of this group, who were at one time the main subjects of discussion in “Insider”, are as follows – Nikola Dedovic, Vladimir Miljkovic, Milos Radisavljevic and Ljubomir Markovic, Aleksandar Vavic and Djordje Prelic. It was last night, from the spectator stands, that the people belonging to the afore mentioned group have openly expressed their ghastly threats: - you’re poisonous just like a snake, we’ll handle you like Curuvija give or take. Brankice you are a whore, a whore. Certain individuals belonging to this group, amongst whom two of the leaders were present, namely Djordje Prelic and Ljubomir Maljkovic, are the main suspects for the murder of the French citizen Bryce Taton, which took place in the centre of Belgrade. Given the fact that this issue is considered to be a serious social problem, to such an extent that the even the boards of the clubs, genuine supporters, politicians, but also the authorities tend to turn the blind eye, B92 will further persist in dealing with this subject. This is not about the fans who are cheering for their team, nor the patriots who are allegedly gathered around right-wing organisations. This is about violators who call themselves fans and extremists who call themselves patriots.

(Im)potent state? (part three)

Vojislav Koštunica: Serbia, who does Kosovo belong to? What is Kosovo? Where is Kosovo? Velimir Ilić: They broke our country apart and they keep breaking it apart, so it’s no wonder that the Serbian youth breaks an occasional window out of protest. Having in mind what the ambassadors deserved, they ended up fine even. - Tomislav Nikolić: Let’s show them that when we get together, when we gather, when we express our anger and our wrath, we do it as Serbs. They better leave us alone, or we are going to show them how Serbs fight for Kosovo and Metohija.

- Slobodan Samardžić: Look what was done to Serbia in context, and what these people are doing to the embassies – it is really nothing.

- Andreja Mladenović: I can only say that I feel responsible, but we have done everything in our power.

- Velimir Ilić: If a window is broken at a meeting, and we say that is violence at we call the whole group hooligans, as some media do and so they tease the members of the meeting to break some other institutions.

By kicking journalists, throwing shoes at the Parliament, waving a gun in front of the Parliament, splashing water in the face of the President of the Parliament, the politicians have promoted violence for years back as an acceptable and desirable behaviour model in Serbia.

- Do you have a gun on you?

- I do.

- What do you have?

- I have a gun.

- Now, at this moment?

- Yes.

- People, do you believe this?

- OK, fine, I believe you. Now, no one knows how to solve this problem which reached a peak by demolishing the city, beating up and killing those who are not likeable to certain groups, which came as a result of two-year violence from which everyone stood back.

All this was possible in Serbia, the country in which for years back the judicial system does not punish those who spread religious, racial and national hatred, those who violently interrupt manifestations which they dislike, those threat in an open manner, patrol across Belgrade and who are ready to physically assault those who do not think the same as they do.

Ultra right-winged groups were a marginal occurrence until 2000. Their messages and actions became visible only after Serbia stepped out of the wars, and full expansion reached in 2004 when the Democratic Party of Serbia (DSS) had a majority rule in Serbia. When the clear attitude of the state towards the crime in the first years after October 5 was exposed and when a documentary was broadcasted on the state television about the suffering of the Muslims in Srebrenica in 2001, in such a way was the attitude of the state towards these groups exposed by holding a debate “The truth about Srebrenica” at the Faculty of Law in Belgrade in 2005, where these groups denied the crime and glorified the accused of committing the crime. According to the official records, according to the criminal and offensive complaints, there are about 4000 extremist fans and ultra right-wingers. This informal army gathered a real arsenal of torches, stones, guns in September 2009 just before the “Pride parade”. Representatives of these groups sent threats day after day, continuously to all supporters of the “Pride parade” but also to all those who they declared as traitors for years back. There are several right-winged and ultra right-winged organisations. The prosecution recently asked for the banning of “Obraz” and “SNP 1389”. Apart from these, there are neonacist organisations working in Serbia called “Blood and honour” and “National order”. They openly present their fascist attitudes and announce the list of Jews in order to point out the enemy. “Blood and honour” is an extremely closed organisation with a strict hierarchy structure with rigorous control and conspiracy upon hiring new members. The group is empowered by the extreme groups of Rad fans.

They are organised and active when it comes to public meetings which are mostly organised by right-winged organisations and are joined by fans from all clubs. And having in mind the number and aggressiveness, no big meeting was held in Belgrade in the past years without their presence. On holding such meetings they have a mutual agreement that they should not attack each other. The fatherland movement “Obraz” was founded by Nebojša Krstić, religion sociologist in 1992 and one of the programme documents of “Obraz” is called “The declaration to Serbian enemies”. The number of “Obraz” members is top secret.

After the murder of the French citizen in Belgrade downtown, the republic prosecutor asked for banning certain fan subgroups, but also of right-winged organisations such as “1389” and “Obraz”. Mladen Obradović, “Obraz” movement: If they want to make us even stronger, let them ban us.

B92: You called to violence?

Mladen Obradović: Towards whom?

B92: Towards homosexuals, let’s begin with that?

Mladen Obradović: I don’t know when, please?

B92: Was the statement: “We are waiting for you” prior to the “Pride parade” yours?

Mladen Obradović: Yes, so?

B92: Your outbursts in public said that you would physically deal with the participants of the parade.

Mladen Obradović: Give me such a statement. B92: Well, I told you, “We are waiting for you”! What does “We are waiting for you” mean?

Mladen Obradović: We are waiting for you. It means what it says

B92: What does “We are waiting for you” mean?

Mladen Obradović: It means we are waiting for you.

B92: I don’t understand, clarify?

Mladen Obradović: You will understand. Obviously everyone whom the message was directed to understood.

B92: When the police find brass knuckles, 3 smoke boxes, 2 torches on the day of the arrest, and when they find in Zmaj-Jovina street a large quantity of rocks painted red, is that yours, was that ready to repeat the scenario from 2001?

Mladen Obradović: I don’t see how that has anything to do with what we are speaking here. We had a conversation up to now, you are asking me about the stands of “Obraz”, so, the stand of “Obraz” was as follows: such manifestation should not be organised in Belgrade, because... Or anywhere in Serbia, because it will cause huge resentment of the people which no one will be able to control.

B92: Tell me, when you look back at that 2001, and at that “Pride parade” which was broken apart, what are your thoughts about it?

Mladen Obradović: I think it is good that such a freakish manifestation was not held in Belgrade and I am confident that Belgrade, just like Moscow, will stay pure in honour and reputation.

B92: People were beaten up in the street, and you call that pure reputation?

Mladen Obradović: Pure reputation is not having the Sodom and Gomorrah manifestation, as mitropolitan Amfilohije said in a correct manner, pass on the streets of Belgrade, and you know, everybody knew very well what would happen if such a thing tried to be organised. You know...

B92: That blood in the streets of Belgrade was keeping the reputation of Belgrade pure?

Mladen Obradović: You mean to say that, for example, the blood spilled at the battle of Kosovo on Kosovo polje, when the...

B92: Come on, please, we are talking about a very specific thing here, I did not ask you about the battle of Kosovo at all.

Mladen Obradović: But it is important, because it is about defending our people, about defending pure spiritual and national identity, so, we are never fighting against something, we are fighting for something. We are fighting for the cross, for freedom. Our holy ancestors knew what today’s potentates don’t know or don’t want to know, and that means that the fight for the defense of the Serbian name and property is fought with words and acts. It is also fought with fasting...

B92: Your act is violence in the streets?

Mladen Obradović: Let me finish, it is fought with fasting and praying, it is fought with the cross, it is fought with the plow and quill, but if there is no other way, it is fought with the sword.

B92: You take stones, torches and poles and deal out your justice?

Mladen Obradović: That’s nothing like our justice, that is not our justice, that is the most normal reasoning of every Serbian child, every Serbian man, every Serbian mother. The first action made by “Obraz” is the interruption and beating up the participants of the “Pride parade” in 2001. They participated in the meeting on March 17, 2004 after which the Bajrakli mosk was burned down. About a hundred members of “Obraz” interrupted the opening of an exhibition by contemporary artists from Pristina in Belgrade on February 2008. Members of “Obraz” were carrying the life size picture of former commandant of the Special Operation Unit (JSO), Milorad Ulemek Legija who was sentenced for the assassination of the prime minister of Serbia, Zoran Đinđić. They participated in the meeting called “Kosovo is Serbia”, participated in breaking up the antifascist meeting in December 2008 as well as on support meetings for Radovan Karadžić in 2008 when the hooligans confronted the police.

Mladen Obradović, “Obraz” movement: Our relationship with the political parties here could hardly be described in superlatives.

B92: And what is the role of Andrija Mladenović in the founding of “Obraz”?

Mladen Obradović: Mr. Mladenović participated in certain debates organised by “Obraz” in the earlier years, which was quite long ago. “Obraz” was still in the form of a magazine and Mr. Mladenović was not the only one present there. So, there were many people there who cooperated in one way or another with the magazine “Obraz”, later on with the organisation...

B92: Was one of them Vojislav Koštunica?

Mladen Obradović: Yes, Vojislav Koštunica did write an article which was published in the magazine “Obraz”, but that was some time ago and I don’t see anything controversial about it, but the fact is that in certain parties in Serbia which are patriotic, even only in public, there are people who are honourable, respectful, some of them as we said gathered courage and took the material and exhibited it into the Assembly of Serbia on the day the Statute was voted for, the antiserbian Statute of Vojvodina in the Assembly of Serbia. I will only mention Mrs. Aleksandra Janković, Mr. Željko Tomić, Filip Stojanović.

B92: This is New Serbia, Democratic Party of Serbia?

Mladen Obradović: Yes, and the Serbian radical party. B92: Fine. How do you stand with the Serbian Orthodox Church?

Mladen Obradović: The Serbian Orthodox Church has always been the main pillar of the Serbian nation, it has always been the main guardian of our national being and should stay that way. We are trying to be faithful disciples of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

B92: Who in the Serbian church, who gives you support?

Mladen Obradović: We have support in all those people who believe, in deacons and archpriests who know that what “Obraz” does, does for the sake of this people.

The “1389” movement was established in the beginning of October 2004. The basic principles of the movement are: patriotism, orthodox religion, unity, preservation of purity and richness of the Serbian language, Cyrillic script, family values, state sovereignty and territorial wholeness of Serbia. They participated in the meeting “Kosovo is Serbia” after which the American embassy was set on fire, participated in meetings of support to Radovan Karadžić, when the hooligans confronted the police.

The members of the “1389” movement are authors of the actions: “Safe house for Ratko Mladić”, “The network of concealers is spreading”, “Ratko Mladić Boulevard” and the action of writing graffiti “European Union – no, thank you!” The ban of this movement was requested by the republic prosecution. Miša Vacić, “SNP 1389”: This is very ridiculous and absurd for putting us and “Obraz” in the same context repeatedly, you will have to ask the prosecution that.

B92: And you don’t think that you and “Obraz” are the same?

Miša Vacić: We don’t think, we know.

B92: What makes you different?

Miša Vacić: The way of work, ideological guides, we don’t think of ourselves as a right-winged organisation, nor do we divide organisation in Serbia in right-winged and left-winged, but we divide them into Serbian and antiserbian... Proserbian and antiserbian.

B92: Patriots and traitors?

Miša Vacić: Patriots and traitors if you will, but they do not always have to be patriotic and traitorous, you can have national and civil.

B92: But wait, who decides what patriotism in Serbia is?

Miša Vacić: Simple, the society decides based on acts, acts tell us if someone is doing a patriotic thing or traitorous to be precise.

B92: Yes, but your point of view is that everyone who does not think like that should suffer the consequences? Miša Vacić: No, this isn’t true. You are wrong, on the contrary, we don’t see our exclusiveness and extremism in any way.

B92: Wait, how is this not exclusiveness if you are, here you personally are, you...

Miša Vacić: Yes?

B92: Stated prior to the “Pride parade” and I quote: “If we find out about this meeting of queers even on the very day of the event, thousands of patriots will rush down to break apart this meeting of immoral, fornication and Satanism.”

Miša Vacić: Yes, this is a clear statement. I am glad it didn’t happen because no one needs bloody Belgrade streets, because this is something a small child in Serbia knows, that gay parades won’t and can’t happen in Serbia.

B92: So you practically announced blood in the streets here?

Miša Vacić: No, we are just making clear statements and freely discussing it in order to prevent it from happening from precautions.

B92: Wait, but is this a call for lynch?

Miša Vacić: This is not a call for lynch, this is the real state of affairs in the country.

B92: What do you mean real state, so this means that a couple of hundred people from various right-winged organisation and fan groups simply gets to decide who can and who can’t exhibit their opinion, attitude or... Miša Vacić: First of all, there are not just a couple of hundred of us, and secondly, these are not fan group organisations but an opinion of the citizens of Serbia, the Serbian people.

B92: Those are right-winged organisations and fan groups mostly.

Miša Vacić: Every public research regarding the issue of gaying and promoting it.

B92: You know what I think, I think that you won’t be able to use the word “gaying” because it is not civilised. Miša Vacić: First of all, there are not just a couple of hundred of us, and secondly, these are not fan group organisations but an opinion of the citizens of Serbia, the Serbian people.

B92: Those are right-winged organisations and fan groups mostly.

Miša Vacić: Every public research regarding the issue of gaying and promoting it.

B92: You know what I think, I think that you won’t be able to use the word “gaying” because it is not civilised.

Miša Vacić: It is not civilised?

B92: Yes.

Miša Vacić, “SNP 13879”: The very word “break apart” does not imply the use of force, and to break apart in the marketing way, media...

B92: But wait, if you were an organisation that hasn’t participated in any of the previous incidents in the last years, you would have had...

Miša Vacić: We did not participate.

B92: ...complete rights to say that.

Miša Vacić: We did not participate in any of the...

B92: But we all know pretty well...

Miša Vacić: Go on, say it.

B92: ...what does it mean when “1389”, the right-winged organisation and fan groups announce...

Miša Vacić: We are a patriotic organisation.

B92: Patriotic, I am sorry.

Miša Vacić: I don’t know what your basis for claiming such things are...

B92: I don’t know on what you base the opinion that you are patriots, since patriots do not demolish their city?

Miša Vacić: We never demolished our city.

B92: You participated in the incidents.

Miša Vacić: We did not participate in the incidents, there is no evidence to prove that we have participated in the incidents. You can make an analogy of the period.

B92: No, I’m just wondering, so if you are opposed to something...

Miša Vacić: Yes, we are.

B92: Who gives you the right to threat those people and try to stop...

Miša Vacić: We threatened no one.

B92: You are violating the Constitution.

Miša Vacić: We are not violating the Constitution.

B92: You are calling for discrimination which is forbidden...

Miša Vacić: We are not calling for discrimination.

B92: Yes, you are.

Miša Vacić: No, we are not.

B92: And by the way, what do you have against that meeting?

Miša Vacić: The thing we disagree about...

B92: In what way is that threatening you personally?

Miša Vacić: ...in the way that we are simply against the promotion of the gay lobby.

B92: You are opposed to the accession of Serbia into the European Union?

Miša Vacić: Yes, as something normal, socially acceptable.

B92: Well then your stand is highly debatable.

Miša Vacić: Why?

B92: Well tell me, how old are you?

Miša Vacić: 24.

B92: And why are you against the European Union?

Miša Vacić: Many things, I am familiarised with the European Union, I finished college there, I lived there for a period of time and travelled through almost every country except the East-European ones that joined recently, so I know the social values and the civil liberties there.

B92: Why did you live there at all in the first place?

Miša Vacić: I lived there because I was forced to, my father was as a diplomat there, in a way. I certainly didn’t go to live there because I liked it.

The accession of Serbia into the European Union would degrade Serbia.

B92: Well it’s certainly not you who should decide upon that?

Miša Vacić: Who then?

B92: What makes you think you have the right to decide about anything on behalf of the citizens of this country?

Miša Vacić: Unfortunately, we do not yet decide, but we try to...

B92: You put yourself in such a position and you can do that because – what? You have a couple of hundred or thousand different people behind you who are ready even to beat up someone because they think differently.

Miša Vacić: Why do you keep emphasizing violence when I say that non-violence is the key to our...

B92: Because all of your activities so far speak so.

Miša Vacić: Well, you are making things up.

B92: Are you cooperating with the Serbian radical party?

Miša Vacić: No. B92: Aleksandar Vučić?

Miša Vacić: No.

B92: You are not cooperating with the radicals?

Miša Vacić: We are not cooperating with any of the political parties.

B92: You changed addresses. Your organisation used the rooms of the Serbian advance party in John Kennedy Street in Novi Beograd, is that true or not?

Miša Vacić: We changed addresses.

B92: Have you used the rooms of the Serbian advance party in John Kennedy Street?

Miša Vacić: Used for what?

B92: For doing your duties, how can I tell you what for, I mean you used them as your office?

Miša Vacić: No. We have our own offices which are distinctly marked to be in the...

B92: All right, and you have no kind of cooperation with any of the political parties, none?

Miša Vacić, “SNP 13879”: It happens occasionally that certain political parties, national parties of the opposition I guess, for the sake of their political points supported us and tried to protect us in times of some big hunt, as in the case of “Ratko Mladić Boulevard” from the media lynch and public prosecution.

B92: And what about the Serbian Orthodox Church?

Miša Vacić: Our members are all members of the Serbian Orthodox Church, we are honoured when we are seeking blessings for some greater projects, such as the “Vidovdan march” or humanitarian actions, redemption voyages we organise where we get blessings.

B92: Since you said that you are opposed to any kind of violence, that you don’t call for lynch, although there are some of your statements...

Miša Vacić: We condemn violence and hatred, fascism and racism.

B92: And you yourselves do not hate and promote fascism?

Miša Vacić: No.

B92: Well, you have on your Facebook profile an uploaded photo of the B92 building burning. This is also a kind of a love message?

Miša Vacić: I don’t think we have that, I know that photo is very popular.

B92: And that’s why you uploaded it?

Miša Vacić: We even thought of making graffiti across the street from your building of that very same photo.

B92: The burning building? Does that mean that B92 should be burnt?

Miša Vacić: This is artistic liberty, because the hatred and injustice that this house is doing by false reports is much bigger, when you are reporting about us, there are always scenes of violence. The association “Ours” is one of the youngest associations of the extreme right-wing. Formed in January 2006 the public first heard about them when they interrupted the debate of the “Peščanik” on Radio B92 in Aranđelovac in November 2007. Dragan Jovanović, a member of the New Serbia party of Velimir Ilić, and the president of the Topola municipality was the leader of the group.

Ivan Ivanović, association “Ours”: Well I wouldn’t call it furiously, it was actually a media manipulation designed by your house because it had plenty more events that preceded our entering the show “Peščanik” and it would lat for a good part of the show if we wanted to talk about it. We were launched, in a way, into some media space and after that show, our organisation took a big place among the national organisations in Serbia.

B92: You were doing it for the marketing?

Ivan Ivanović: Not for the marketing, rather for the reason that we consider the show “Peščanik” antiserbian, specifically because of the people that write...

B92: What you consider is your own thing, but who gives you the right to deny someone’s right to speech?

Ivan Ivanović: No, we denied no one.

B92: But now I am interested in, I am asking you this about Aranđelovac, because there was also... So, the president of the municipality of Topola gave you support...

Ivan Ivanović: You know what, be began that campaign against the show “Peščanik”...

B92: Let me just finish the question, who is the vice president of New Serbia, by Velimir Ilić...

Ivan Ivanović: Yes, that’s Dragan Jovanović.

B92: ...there were also radicals there. So, are these the parties that support you and who you support?

Ivan Ivanović: No, I would like to clarify now, we are a patriotic organisation which has its statute and its goals. About this case in specific, people came and supported us because they recognized that we needed support because of the horrible media attack upon us. Your TV house announced that it had read I don’t know what kind of announcements from our website, which was not set up yet. So our website was being constructed and you talked about reading some kind of, I don’t which announcements that we would do I don’t know what.

B92: come on, we will talk about us later, I called you because of you.

Ivan Ivanović: Well I am speaking specifically.

B92: So I called you, now answer my question, does your organisation have the support of New Serbia, Serbian radical party?

Ivan Ivanović: Let me tell you, we have our statute and we know what we are doing. Regarding specific actions, if some political party like it, they can support us, we won’t say no, but we don’t depend on any political party...

B92: And which party supports you?

Ivan Ivanović: Regarding that case specifically, we were supported by New Serbia and the Serbian radical party, people from the movement of Ravna gora showed up as well. So no one stands behind us, no political party.

B92: What motivated you to establish the organisation anyway in 2006? Ivan Ivanović, association “Ours”: Well I wouldn’t call it furiously, it was actually a media manipulation designed by your house because it had plenty more events that preceded our entering the show “Peščanik” and it would lat for a good part of the show if we wanted to talk about it. We were launched, in a way, into some media space and after that show, our organisation took a big place among the national organisations in Serbia.

B92: You were doing it for the marketing?

Ivan Ivanović: Not for the marketing, rather for the reason that we consider the show “Peščanik” antiserbian, specifically because of the people that write...

B92: What you consider is your own thing, but who gives you the right to deny someone’s right to speech?

Ivan Ivanović: No, we denied no one.

B92: But now I am interested in, I am asking you this about Aranđelovac, because there was also... So, the president of the municipality of Topola gave you support...

Ivan Ivanović: You know what, be began that campaign against the show “Peščanik”...

B92: Let me just finish the question, who is the vice president of New Serbia, by Velimir Ilić...

Ivan Ivanović: Yes, that’s Dragan Jovanović.

B92: ...there were also radicals there. So, are these the parties that support you and who you support?

Ivan Ivanović: No, I would like to clarify now, we are a patriotic organisation which has its statute and its goals. About this case in specific, people came and supported us because they recognized that we needed support because of the horrible media attack upon us. Your TV house announced that it had read I don’t know what kind of announcements from our website, which was not set up yet. So our website was being constructed and you talked about reading some kind of, I don’t which announcements that we would do I don’t know what.

B92: come on, we will talk about us later, I called you because of you.

Ivan Ivanović: Well I am speaking specifically.

B92: So I called you, now answer my question, does your organisation have the support of New Serbia, Serbian radical party?

Ivan Ivanović: Let me tell you, we have our statute and we know what we are doing. Regarding specific actions, if some political party like it, they can support us, we won’t say no, but we don’t depend on any political party...

B92: And which party supports you?

Ivan Ivanović: Regarding that case specifically, we were supported by New Serbia and the Serbian radical party, people from the movement of Ravna gora showed up as well. So no one stands behind us, no political party.

B92: What motivated you to establish the organisation anyway in 2006?

Ivan Ivanović: We established the organisation because we saw that the political parties are not able to protect our national interests and we, as young people, are gathered around our organisation which is called ”Ours”. An organisation with the same name exists in Russia and we tried to make something that would gather a large number of young people. That was practically our goal and we are successful in achieving it.

B92: You said that when the “Pride parade” was cancelled that “The association “Ours” notifies the public that the cancellation of the queer people parade is a great victory of the Serbian patriotic organisations and all normal Serbs and that this is the beginning of a normal Serbia.”

Ivan Ivanović, association “Ours”: Well of course, it was a big victory of the patriotic organisations because queer people couldn’t have been parading Belgrade

B92: Do you understand that you are now violating the Constitution?

Ivan Ivanović: I am violating the Constitution?

B92: Yes.

Ivan Ivanović: I am violating the Constitution? Well I think that...

B92: By saying such things you are violating the Constitution.

Ivan Ivanović: So there is no section in the Constitution that relates to homosexual...

B92: There is a section about discrimination.

Ivan Ivanović: There is about discrimination, but not about homosexuals, and the Law on discrimination was passed last year. The Constitution is not violated; people that pass such laws violate the Constitution. Here, we can open the Constitution, so no section applies to homosexuals.

The Constitution of the Republic of Serbia: “The Constitution of the Republic of Serbia specially guarantees the preservation of human dignity and achieving complete liberty and equality of every individual in the justice, open and democratic society founded on the principles of the rule of law, limiting them only in cases of endangering the aforementioned guaranteed human rights. The Constitution specifically predicts the ban on discrimination. The ban on discrimination, direct or indirect on any basis”.

B92: Who are you to decide who is a patriot in Serbia, who can and who can’t do things?

Ivan Ivanović: We don’t decide, we determine...

B92: No, I’m asking you... Who are you to decide about everyone else?

Ivan Ivanović: We are the organisation “Ours” and you see that we have the right... The gay parade was not held.

B92: Who gave you the right to decide that you are a greater patriot than all others?

Ivan Ivanović: We gave ourselves the right because I am a Christian Serb and I think that this Serbia should be the land of Orthodox Serbs and of course, all citizens who live here regardless of their religion.

B92: And those who aren’t should be killed and lynched according to your rules?

Ivan Ivanović: No, tell me again, where did we ask for someone to be killed?

B92: Did you participate in 2001?

Ivan Ivanović: Of course.

B92: And who beat up all those people there?

Ivan Ivanović: Who beat up the people?

B92: Yes.

Ivan Ivanović: There were people who disagreed on the issue and who reacted fiercely. The protest they were supposed to be holding in 2001 should have ended up in front of the Serbian patriarchy and should have been a protest against the Serbian patriarch. So you can’t go into something that is the holiest of all for the Serbian people and expect the treated kindly and be loved.

B92: Fine, why are you a greater patriot than all others?

Ivan Ivanović: I am not a greater patriot, I behave like any normal person that loves.

B92: But right now, in this conversation you stated several times that you were a patriot?

Ivan Ivanović: I say patriot, but...

B92: What is a patriot?

Ivan Ivanović: The patriot should be... A patriot is a normal person who loves their friends, loves their parents, loves their neighbours, loves their country, loves their church. Everybody else fighting against their church... There is a nice expression for them, they are antichauvinists. They hate themselves.

B92: So, you said that you were against drugs, against crime, against a lot of things, but at the same time you are a catechist, but that doesn’t prevent you from organising the promotion of Kristijan Golubović, who was in court convicted as a criminal.

Ivan Ivanović: Yes. Well this is a very interesting question and I had expected you to ask me this. Well, your television was the first to make this propaganda film “I’ll see you in the obituary” which, well I can say so, pulled into crime thousands of young people. Our organisation...

B92: I really apologise, but this is turning out really ridiculous. You don’t have answers to any of the questions.

Ivan Ivanović: Wait until I answer the question.

B92: Well you didn’t answer it. Ivan Ivanović: Well Kristijan Golubović was... When you keep interrupting me... We presented him in a completely new way in which he calls out people to give up crime and calls people to get involved in a healthy life, in sports and speaks about, so the whole matter of the debate was: who wants to deal with some kind of, let’s say, fiercely life, let them get involved in boxing, karate, “Ultimate fight”. This was one of the most seen debates in Aranđelovac in the last 5 years and precisely about... Do you think that I would call someone to promote crime and who would talk about drugs?

B92: He doesn’t have to promote, but we all know who Kristijan Golubović is, right?

Ivan Ivanović: Well of course, you too broadcast “I’ll see you in the obituary” with 20 criminals.

B92: That really is no kind of argument... For the film filmed at that time...

Ivan Ivanović: Just explain to me... How do young people... Can you explain...

B92: In what school do you work in?

Ivan Ivanović: In a primary school. In several primary schools. Can you explain to me how a young man...

B92: Wait, and you as a catechist...

Ivan Ivanović: Yes.

B92: You have to have the support of the Serbian Orthodox Church?

Ivan Ivanović: I don’t have to have the support of the Serbian Orthodox Church. I finished school and I regularly do my job in the school. This is something I do in my free time and the Church has no influence on who will join which political party. That would be ridiculous. That would be abolishing freedom of every catechist, every priest.

B92: Does the Serbian Orthodox Church support your stands as a catechist who displays it publicly?

Ivan Ivanović: No, we never had conversation about the Serbian Orthodox Church supporting my stands at all. It would be ridiculous, who am I to be supported by the Serbian Orthodox Church?

B92: A catechist.

Ivan Ivanović: Well that’s irrelevant... Catechist? I am just one in the hierarchy who, there exist thousands of catechists, and I say, I do my job as a catechist.

B92: You as a catechist.

Ivan Ivanović: Yes.

B92: You are calling for violence?

Ivan Ivanović: I never call for violence and I repeat, show me where I call for violence and name me the specific statement where I call for violence. Name the specific sentence where I called for violence.

B92: Well, I really didn’t want to expose this since it is B92 but since... Let me tell you, you claim you haven’t said it, but your message, which stands on your website: “The end is near, servants of terror. The Church and Serbia are your horror”?

Ivan Ivanović: Well yes. B92: how is the end near for TV B92?

Ivan Ivanović: I just answered you – political end, I tell you we are getting prepared for a serious...

B92: This doesn’t say political end.

Ivan Ivanović: Well it is one slogan, can you state in one political slogan your entire stand?

B92: And you think it befits a catechist to use such language?

Ivan Ivanović: Of course it befits me, because I say what is true.

B92: And children should learn from you?

Ivan Ivanović: Of course a child should learn.

B92: Catechism?

Ivan Ivanović: Of course.

B92: Thank you.

As a rule, extremist right-wingers and extremist fan participate together in all events that end with incidents

Mladen Obradović “Obraz” movement: If you think about the fans who spilled their blood by defending our people from Knin, all the way to Prizren... B92: I refer to those fans who will set a mosk on fire, beat up homosexuals, throw torches at the participants of an antifascist meeting, yes, those are the fans I refer to

Mladen Obradović: The right think would be to talk about the fans who spilled their blood for the defence of the Serbian people from Knin to Prizren and about the fans that stood up to taking away Kosovo and Metohija, those fans who stood up to the arrest of Radovan Karadžić. - (Fans): Let all DOS motherfuckers know, if they arrest the general, Grobars will take guns into their hands and we will kill all of you one day.

Mladen Obradović, “Obraz” movement: Riots in the streets happen because of our authority. If the Serbian, sorry, this isn’t Serbian, this is antiserbian authority. So, if the antiserbian potentates had not delivered a Serbian knight such as Radovan Karadžić, scenes like those would not have happened. What seems to be the problem if the same meeting is attended by fans of Red star, Partizan, Rad, members of the “Obraz” movement and other organisations?

Ivan Ivanović, association “Ours”: Right-winged organisations and fans?

B92: Yes. What is it that connects you and the fan groups?

Ivan Ivanović: Let’s make one thing clear, every time a meeting is organised, many fan groups in Serbia are right-winged and this has been going on since the 90s and these are organisations I say, which are right-winged, which also have their own values such as love towards Serbia, love towards the Serbian Orthodox Church. B92: And your organisation was close to Red Star fans?

Ivan Ivanović: No, we are the closest to the Family of Serbian fans which gathers all Serbian fans from all patriotic clubs and all fan groups. The Family of Serbian fans gathers all fan groups, literally said.

B92: Wait, your organisation “Ours” closely cooperates with the Russian organisation “Ours”?

Ivan Ivanović: Well, you can’t say closely, but we do cooperate with the Russian organisation “Ours”.

B92: And why did you have a meeting in 2008 in the rooms of the FC Red Star?

Ivan Ivanović: Because the fans of FC Red Star travelled to Moscow and they cooperate with Spartak Moscow. There were also members of the “Ours” organisation who talked about their cooperation and then we just met to discuss that. So that was no meeting, on an I don’t know what kind of level, but practically a small conversation in which we exchanged experiences regarding the functioning of each organisation...

B92: Since the Spartak fan group functions within the Russian organisation “Ours”...

Ivan Ivanović: It does not function within, it’s the members who..

B92: Some are members, yes.

Ivan Ivanović: The members are people who are from “Ours” and who go to Spartak matches and that’s how they met. It is not a connection – fans that have who know what kind of cooperation. It is ridiculous. Fans usually respond to, i.e. they attended those big meetings we organised such as the protest in front of the Slovenian embassy, Red Star fans came then, Partizan fans, Rad fans. The proof that extremist fans and extremist right-wingers are always in the front lines when it comes to demolition and burning of cities is backed up by the fact that one of Partizan fans, Zoran Vujović, got killed in the American embassy when the hooligans set it on fire upon entering the embassy.

Mladen Obradović, “Obraz” movement: You can’t blame Serbian youth for trying to deal with the stealing of Kosovo and Metohija in ways they knew of. You know, Njegoš was right to put it: “To do evil, when defending from evil, there is no evil done there”. You can’t blame a people, when they are defending, when they are forced to...

B92: To defend by burning down its own city?

Obradović: Damn it, what city, what city? American embassy? What kind of a city is that? That’s a city within a city, the American embassy.

B92: It’s a city within a city...

Obradović: It’s a fortress

B92: And we are all paying for what you’ve done.

Obradović: Ask around... Mrs., it’s not about the burning, you know. The point is that whatever happened there on that day, and you are probably aiming at the events which occurred after the meeting “Kosovo is Serbia”, everything that happened on that day was the expression of people’s resistance, despair of this people who don’t know what to do.

A group of young people mostly went after the “Kosovo is Serbia” meeting to demolish everything that stood in their way. According to unofficial information, some demonstrators had pieces of paper in them on which was the map to the embassy. Such maps were intended for those extremist fans and right-wingers coming from Serbia.

It is just another marker of how group and subgroup leaders seldom participate in incidents directly, but organize groups of extremist fans instead. Young people are often members of such groups who are ready to do anything to prove themselves to the leader for the sake of advancing on the hierarchy ladder in the group.

Zoran Vujović who was killed in the American embassy from suffocation from the fire set by the hooligans was one of the Partizan fans. After that, Grobars devoted songs to Vujović, carried a banner with his photo, and the same photo is on the website of the opponent fan group “Delije North”. Fans of the opponent team also pay tribute in this way to Vujović who, as they say, “gave his life for defending Kosovo”. Responsibility for what happened in February 2008 goes to representatives of authorities and institutions in charge at the time. Vojislav Koštunica was the prime minister at the time. The settlement about that big and peaceful protest was achieved at the meeting of parliamentary parties of the Democratic Party and Serbian radical party. “We have to defend Serbia and Kosovo in the best possible way”, said Koštunica at the time.

However, at the day of the meeting, the president of the Democratic Party and president of Serbia Boris Tadić was not in the country, but away visiting Romania. He came back when everything was over and gave a statement for the press at 8 o’clock at night when he called for settling the situation.

G17 announced that they wouldn’t be present at the meeting, so representatives of the Democratic Party of Serbia, Serbian radical party (which was unique at the time) and the Church were present at the stage.

Although the responsibility of the institutions in charge was never determined, based on information available we can determine that the burning of the embassy was not prevented, i.e. the police were not instructed prior to the burning to react, but who brought the decision not to react stays unclear to this day.

Just a few days after the meeting organised by the state, the group of hooligans and extremists caused riots in the city by smashing windows on embassies on the day Kosovo declared independence. Minister in the Government of Serbia Velimir Ilić at the time, but also other members of the Government publicly justified such acts of hooligans. Velimir Ilić: Foreigners broke apart our country, and we broke a couple of windows on embassies, it is normal and they should expect that and learn democracy... Breaking windows is democracy too.

Such statements were actually a cause to what would happen just a few days later. Even the session of the Government was held where the Government of Serbia discussed about the riots of the hooligans. The transcript from the session was published by “Blic”.

"Velimir Ilić (NS): they caused us more damage then those broken windows. The people from B92 and other media should be careful when talking about those young people.

Snežana Samardžić-Marković (G17): You are the last who should teach somebody manners. We all know what you were saying.

Velimir Ilić: Madam, you are 2 months present in sports and I have been for 20 years. Take care, sportsmen will come to you.

Dragan Šutanovac (DS): What sportsmen, what are you talking about? I will stand in front of hose wimps if I have to. Second of all, why was the police given instructions to allow the hooligans to wreak havoc and on the other hand to protect law and order? Policemen will only get killed that way

Velimir Ilić: You can’t call them hooligans just because they smashed some windows and hurt a couple of policemen.

Dragan Šutanovac: 53 to be exact.

Vojislav Koštunica: Those people, hooligans if you will, were only reacting to violation of international rights.

Dragan Šutanovac: Please, if someone hadn’t organised them, they wouldn’t have know what do to. Violation of international rights, yeah right?!”

Velimir Ilić, Andreja Mladenović and Vojislav Koštunica refused to talk for “Insider”.

Snežana Samardžić-Marković, minister of youth and sports: That was a dramatic session of the Government and I was the one to tell the president of the Government that we are not obliged to listen in the Government, to the president of the Government at the time...

B92: Vojislav Koštunica?

Snežana Samardžić-Marković: That we are not obliged to listen to those attacks and I ask the president to cease the attacks of the fellow minister. Mr. Ilić attacked me very much.

One day prior to the big demonstrations, a meeting of all services of the ministry of internal affairs and the security-informative agency (BIA), where it was agreed to secure all diplomatic embassies and to secure property, according to information “Insider” came by. From the ministry of internal affairs at the time all diplomats were assured that they would be under control and that Serbia will comply with all international obligations and secure all foreign embassies. The hooligans, i.e. Partizan fans first threw stones at the Turkish embassy although BIA operatives were in the field following what had been going on. However, the police in the field don’t get orders to cease the demolition of the city. Robbing stores started across the Croatian embassy, the hooligans move on to the American embassy. The police, however, receive the command, quote: “Stay in starting positions”.

Some incidents first occur in front of the American embassy when the guard house was set on fire. While all this lasted there are no commands for the police to react. All this goes on for 45 minutes. Only when the hooligans entered the embassy and set it on fire did the members of the special anti-terrorist unit (SAJ), who are guarding the embassy by the way, entered and tried to pull out the marines out of the building due to the lack of authorities from the ministry of internal affairs, in cooperation with the director of the police. Only after that did the order to react come. According to the research, conducted by “Insider”, the police forces which were positioned along the two parallel streets in the vicinity of the American Embassy, Vojvode Milenka and Miloša Pocerca, as well as in Sarajeveska street, have been ordered to retreat half an hour before the attack at the Embassy took place. It remains yet to be seen who was in charge of the police forces that day, and who was the person that issued the afore mentioned order.

Dragan Jočić, Minister at the time, was hospitalized due to a car accident. And the duty of the vice/deputy Minister was performed by Mirjana Orašanin. According to the eye witnesses, command over the police was taken over by Aleksandar Nikitović, at the time heading the cabinet of the Primeminister Vojislav Koštunica. Detailed information regarding the chain of command and the issuing of orders is still kept a secret. What is shocking is the fact that there was no official investigation, nor were the authorities held responsible for what has happened – most of all MUP and BIA, which were directed by Rade Bulatović. Vladimir Božović, MUP general supervisor, April 2004-Januarz 2007: I am proud of having been, as you have already mentioned, at the forefront. However I find it utterly defeating and disappointing that the our state couldn’t, or better to say refused to protect state institutions and foreign Embassies, and I consider this to be one of the greatest failures of judgment of the government, of the time.

B92: What you are implying is that the criminal act, involving setting the American Embassy on fire, was actually a politically governed decision?

Vladimir Božović: Well, in a way it was. Either it was due to the inability to react in the manner most proper i.e. to provide protection for that and all the other Embassies in Belgrade. As you already pointed out, I was among at the front, together with the people who were standing in the line with archbishop Amfilohije. To the right, stood Mr. Nikolić and Todorović, I think, at that moment both belonging to the Radical political party, and to the left there stood Primeminister Koštunica and the head of his cabinet Nikitović. At that particular moment I happened to be contacted by certain people from the police, some „other“ people. I also caught a glimpse of Nikitović while he was talking to somebodz as well. Then, upon bringing that conversation to an end, he approached the archbishop Amfilohije and informed him that the police is unable to defend the Embassies, which also included the American Embassy. The reason stated was that any action would jeopardise the lives of people, and that the best thing to do was to withdraw the poliice forces and leave everything be.

B92: Is that what Nikitović said?

Vladimir Božović: To the archbishop…I saw it more as an act of seeking his opinion, or judgement. To what the archbishop, of course, gave his consent pointing out that each life and the sacredness of life are of utmost importance, for him, for me and for every human being, accordingly. Upon cross referencing the information received previously, I pointed out to the archbishop that the police ought to protect all the Embassies, including the American. For, otherwise, what was initially a glorious assemblage of people could turn into something quite the opposite, and if he could share this opinion, which U think he did share with Mr. Nikitović, while we were moving along in a column. B92: Having the head of the cabinet, Mr. Nikitović, in mind…According to what you have just said, the impression is that he was the one who was practically in charge of the police forces, given the fact that he was constantly on the line, and given the fact that he was the one who addressed Amfilohije?

Vladimir Božović, MUP general supervisor, April 2004-Januarz 2007: That is of course to yet to be investigated and confirmed. I’m talking here about what I have personally seen and heard, and it is my impression that is the way it happened and that he is the one who should be taken responsible, together with the the commander in chief of BIA – Mr. Bulatović. The man who, as a head of the secret police, should have had all the operative knowledge and data, regarding what was to happen. But the most important thing is to investigate on who was exactly in command of the police forces on the day the afore mentioned assemblage took place. And on the day when that gruesome image of setting the American Embassy on fire, of a Serbian citizen who lost his life in that same Embassy and of the unconceivable political consequences that act is to have, left Belgrade and off to the world it went. United in the hatred they share, toward everything that is in certain way “different”, the keenest of supporters/fans and rightists have in the last couple of years become a significant and influential part of Serbia’s political scene. Not only were they not punished for the initiation of many violent outbursts followed by the initiation of racial, religious and national hatred, by the government and the authorities but as of 2004 they were also, to a great extent, supported by the same government.

Concurrently with the lack of criminal charges, the general public was constantly fed with fabrications and various concepts rooted in intolerance, negating the existence of organised crime and war misdeeds by glorifying the suspects and convicted felons.

Ever since the incidents which took place during the first “Gay Pride” parade in 2001, continuing with the heinous acts of setting fire to Bajrakli mosque and to the American Embassy, followed by the demolition of Slovenian and Croatian Embassies, up to the cancellation of the last afore mention parade, the rightists and the supporters/fans have been acting together. And it is exactly such actions that kept pulling Serbia further away from the EU, as a country in which serious violation of human rights occurred all too often, and was frequently followed by the loss of innocent lives.

The Serbia in question, which sheltered the most extreme of rightists and hooligans who unfortunately became influential social groups, reached the crest of the wave when the “Gay Pride” parade had been canceled for the second time. It is this Serbia that murdered Brisse Taton, in the centre of Belgrade. While the organizations supporting the rightist ideology publicly threatened the participants of the “Gay Pride” parade and declare the following: “Just show yourselves if you dare. We’re waiting,” Amfilohije Radovic had sent a written statement to the media, condemning the entire parade with reference to Sodom and Gomorrah. “Man was endowed with love so he could give birth, for every birth is but a birth for all times, and not the birth for death and emptiness. And the tree that barren is, can’t be nothing else except firewood. How true is love, that barren is? And it is exactly such love that is consumed by the gay population. The one which cannot and is unable to inherit the beauties of the heavenly kingdom, for it is barren and sterile. Its Eros turns into Tanatos, leading but only to death and suicide, and differs not from death itself.’ B92: And so it happens that Partizan’s football supporters murder the French citizen in the centre of Belgrade, after being fueled in exactly the same manner by public statements identical to those expressed prior to “Gay Pride” parade. Do you, personally, feel partly responsible for that?

Mladen Obradovic: Could you please confirm if we are to hear in public the answers to the following questions: how is it possible that all the media argue that the poor guy was allegedly wearing a T-shirt with the inscription “Serbia”, that he had no personal marks and similar nonsense, however when you look at the video footage more closely it can be clearly seen that he was actually carrying the “colours” of his football club supporter group?

B92: So, if I am not mistaken, that is a reason enough for him to be beaten do death?

Mladen Obradovic: Unbeliveable! Is the public ever going to…Allow me, is this same public ever going to have an opportunity get the answers to, let’s say, following questions: is it true that the person in question had, that same day, homosexual outbursts in the streets of Belgrade? Is it true that, together with others from his group, this person provoked Partizan’s supporters and other people of Serbian origin, who happened to find themselves at the exact same location? Are we ever to get answers to such questions, I ask you?

B92: But the man was murdered in cold blood…

Mladen Obradovic: then you tell me…

B92: A man has been murdered and you won’t even…

Mladen Obradovic: I am truly sorry that such shocking event took place, but don’t you go on and impose some warped and atrocious opinions on me…Something which wasn’t even uttered on my behalf. I do regret about what had happened, for this is indeed regret worthy. But we somehow always get bogged down with discussing only the consequences that we never seem to heal the sores. One thing’s for sure, we’re not talking here about the fans who are cheering their favorite team, nor are we talking about the so called patriots who are, allegedly a part of the right wing oriented organizations. We are talking about “bullies” in the literal sense - the ones who, without any shame whatsoever, call themselves fans. And of extremists/fanatics who refer to themselves as patriots.

Of all the groups and subgroups comprised of fans and under the guise of football teams – Red Star, Partizan and Rad, whose leaders are suspected to have committed more than 250 criminal offences, and are responsible for numerous public threats and insults – for weeks now the loudest among them is the Partizan’s group of fans called “Alcatraz”. The leaders of this group, who were at one time the main subjects of discussion in “Insider”, are as follows – Nikola Dedovic, Vladimir Miljkovic, Milos Radisavljevic and Ljubomir Markovic, Aleksandar Vavic and Djordje Prelic. It was last night, from the spectator stands, that the people belonging to the afore mentioned group have openly expressed their ghastly threats:

- you’re poisonous just like a snake, we’ll handle you like Curuvija give or take. Brankice you are a whore, a whore.

Certain individuals belonging to this group, amongst whom two of the leaders were present, namely Djordje Prelic and Ljubomir Maljkovic, are the main suspects for the murder of the French citizen Bryce Taton, which took place in the centre of Belgrade.

Given the fact that this issue is considered to be a serious social problem, to such an extent that the even the boards of the clubs, genuine supporters, politicians, but also the authorities tend to turn the blind eye, B92 will further persist in dealing with this subject.